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Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by Buttons840 on Saturday September 17, 2022 @01:23PM (#32879287)
Will this apply to bots? What if I have a big list of a complaints about a certain politician (use your imagination, there's more than one politician to complain about), but the "other party" doesn't follow me, in fact, I have very few followers overall.

So I create a bot that spreads my opinions by replying to millions of other Tweets. Anyone who mentions the politician of interest will receive a reply from "me" (my bot) within 2 minutes. Now I will be heard by millions, and my lawyer is ready should I be banned from the entire site.

Now imagine many people doing this, what a cesspool, you make a Tweet and the bot flood gates open. You Tweet about your grandchild and 30 seconds later you have 400 replies expressing "political opinions" about shady websites with cheap Viagra. Twitter can't ban them though. Welcome to truly free speech. You better learn to code if you want to be heard.

We're already at the point where websites can't control bots. AI that can write better than most humans is knocking on the door, and it can run on my personal computer. This law will only make it worse by adding real legal risk to banning suspected bots.

Am I exaggerating here, or is this actually possible? This feels like a loss in the humans vs bots battle more than a political one.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by Brybry on Saturday September 17, 2022 @01:51PM (#32879579)
I'm not a lawyer but I don't think this would apply to bots.

The Texas law text[1] says it only protects 'users' which are defined as people. And even then the law only prohibits censorship for specific reasons.

It doesn't say companies can't ban users for running bots. Even if the messages the bot is posting are protected the fact of running the bot itself should still be a bannable offense if it's not allowed in the TOS.

[1] https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/872/billtext/html/HB00020F...

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by patmcc on Saturday September 17, 2022 @02:53PM (#32880249)
So can I hire someone from a low cost-of-living jurisdiction and get them to behave like a bot for me?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by inetknght on Saturday September 17, 2022 @07:21PM (#32882620)
> So can I hire someone from a low cost-of-living jurisdiction and get them to behave like a bot for me?

For some definitions of low cost-of-living, sure. In this law specifically:

          Sec. 120.002.  APPLICABILITY OF CHAPTER. (a)  This chapter
   applies only to a user who:
                (1)  resides in this state;
                (2)  does business in this state; or
                (3)  shares or receives content on a social media
   platform in this state.
There are, of course, plenty of low-cost-of-living "users" in Texas.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by mr_toad on Saturday September 17, 2022 @10:07PM (#32883679)
> This chapter applies only to a user who: (1) resides in this state; (2) does business in this state; or (3) shares or receives content on a social media

They forgot (4) can afford a lawyer.

This law will only benefit those with deep pockets.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by everforward on Sunday September 18, 2022 @11:40AM (#32888451)
Oh, there will be plenty of pro se complainants with barely-intelligible filings. I would almost put money down that there will be a comical period where Texas' civil court is DDoSed by people filing pro se complaints around this law.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by raverbashing on Sunday September 18, 2022 @02:26AM (#32884955)
I'm sure nobody will fill their address as Texas and use a VPN (you might even not need both ways)
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by tmaly on Sunday September 18, 2022 @05:09PM (#32891536)
Would using a VPN termination in the state constitute sharing or receiving content on a social media platform in the state?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by PradeetPatel on Saturday September 17, 2022 @05:58PM (#32882011)
It's already being done by reputation management firms. As someone who worked as a resource liaison manager at one, it is not uncommon to see the majority of our social media operators are from diverse cost-of-living locations such as Nepal, rural Pakistan, and parts of Africa.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by xani_ on Saturday September 17, 2022 @08:25PM (#32883075)
"diverse cost-of-living locations" is such a corporate way to call it
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by Sunspark on Saturday September 17, 2022 @11:28PM (#32884143)
"..to improve the living conditions of our valued employees and members of the family, we sent them some plastic water bottles. They can hydrate themselves with clean water and then they can make a hole in their tin roof ceiling and stick the bottle through and this way it will act as a lightbulb and improve conditions in their dwellings."
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by armchairhacker on Saturday September 17, 2022 @08:44PM (#32883198)
Is it really diverse if 99% of the population is dirt poor, 0.999% of the population is middle-class, and 0.001% of the population is ultra-rich?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by ekianjo on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:46PM (#32883559)
Your numbers are off.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by omgwtfbyobbq on Saturday September 17, 2022 @03:11PM (#32880434)
Probably, but I don't they that should be allowed. I suppose someone with an applicable disability could also use software/automation to they point where they can post more than someone without that disability.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by giaour on Saturday September 17, 2022 @03:43PM (#32880795)
The line between "user" and "bot" would get very murky very quickly. If you write a tweet and then use a bot to post it at a certain time of day, is your speech still protected, even if it was posted by a bot? What if you have the bot post it at the same time every day? What if you have the bot post it in reply to all tweets with a certain hashtag? Or just all tweets?

In each of those cases, the original speech is a user's, and the bot is merely following the human user's publication instructions.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by peyton on Saturday September 17, 2022 @03:49PM (#32880871)
Fortunately there’s hundreds of years of cases and frameworks to help us get this right. Application of the law won’t turn on minor technical details.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by giaour on Saturday September 17, 2022 @03:55PM (#32880934)
That's my point as well. Twitter's terms of service allow automated users, so I have a hard time seeing how anyone would successfully convince a court that "users" under this law means "humans who write the content on twitter.com and then press a button on the same site to post it."
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by catiopatio on Saturday September 17, 2022 @06:41PM (#32882314)
The law only disallows viewpoint-based censorship.

Twitter remains free to write and enforce an acceptable-use policy that disallows "bot-like" behaviors, as long as the policy and enforcement is viewpoint-neutral.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by FilterSweep on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:20PM (#32883435)
but what if the _flying spaghetti monster cult_ were disproportionate users of bots for their viewpoints?

how does twitter disprove bias?

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by catiopatio on Saturday September 17, 2022 @10:04PM (#32883668)
Twitter has no obligation under this law to disprove accusations of bias that arise due to disparate outcomes.

Furthermore, such a requirement would backfire spectacularly on the conservative right; consider all the other areas where disparity of outcome arises today.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by FilterSweep on Sunday September 18, 2022 @10:12AM (#32887719)
perhaps - or perhaps that ship has already sailed[0]

[0] https://www.businessinsider.com/twitter-algorithm-crackdown-...

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by giaour on Wednesday September 28, 2022 @08:51AM (#33007291)
What you're describing is possible would be a pretty big shift for Twitter and would make it simultaneously less pleasant and less useful. Under the policy you propose that would comply with the new Texas law, a bot that automatically posts new state regulations as they come into effect would be banned, but human Nazis could freely advocate for ethnic cleansing.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by joshuamorton on Saturday September 17, 2022 @05:22PM (#32881699)
The problem of course being that this ruling violates hundreds of years of cases and frameworks (and probably the constitution!), saying "we can rely on precedent" when this law flips precedent on its head is unhelpful.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by leereeves on Saturday September 17, 2022 @08:06PM (#32882946)
How does this law violate previous cases and frameworks when similar laws did not in the past (e.g. the Fairness Doctrine for TV and common carrier regulations for phones)?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by joshuamorton on Sunday September 18, 2022 @04:11AM (#32885502)
The fairness doctrine relies very specifically on licensure of radio and broadcast TV frequency use (the government is the provider of all radio frequency licenses, and if you wish to use one, you must agree to certain additional terms. This is not the case for cable TV or the internet).

As for common carriers, one of the usual differences between a common carrier and a not-common-carrier is that a common carrier can't tell what they're transporting. If I throw a box onto a fedex truck, they don't know what's in it. Same for a train (and they're allowed to refuse if they believe it's something they can't transport successfully or safely). The same general concept applies to telephone operators, in that they can't wiretap you, and often ISPs, since they're just transporting opaque encrypted bytes. But tweets and posts on public facebook pages or on reddit are public, the company can see them.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by leereeves on Sunday September 18, 2022 @04:32AM (#32885612)
> a common carrier can't tell what they're transporting

They can tell what they're transporting, they're just not allowed to. Telephone operators could wiretap you (and use speech recognition to censor), ISPs could monitor unencrypted data, and even for encrypted data, monitor metadata like which server you connect to. Even FedEx could x-ray packages, or use drug sniffers.

Anyway, you claimed this law violated previous precedents, but you've only responded about how it's different from previous precedents.

Sure there are some differences, but how are those differences material to the question of whether governments are allowed to regulate "fair" or universal access to communications tech?

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by joshuamorton on Sunday September 18, 2022 @04:44AM (#32885678)
> monitor metadata like which server you connect to

Common carriers have to do this (they have to know who you're connecting to or shipping to etc.).

> Anyway, you claimed this law violated previous precedents, but you've only responded about how it's different from previous precedents.

No, I said the ruling violated previous precedents, which is obvious, up until today (and in other circuits), the very clear and obvious precedent was that the 1st amendment covered corporations. The first line of this ruling contradicts that.[0]

"Today we reject the idea that corporations have a freewheeling First Amendment right to censor what people say" is a fundamental misreading of the constitution, and flies in the face of first amendment precedent. This ruling isn't about the government's particular ability to regulate particular industries, it's "corporations aren't protected by the constitution".

[0]: Aside, yes the law is also bad and likely is unconstitutional for much the same reason, but that's not the argument I was putting forward.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by leereeves on Sunday September 18, 2022 @04:48AM (#32885696)
The court isn't arguing that the first amendment doesn't apply to corporations, it's arguing that censorship isn't speech. The core is: "[there is no] freewheeling First Amendment right to censor what people say".

And that is completely consistent with precedent that the First Amendment actually protects people from censorship. The companies are using the twisted logic that there is a first amendment right to restrict free speech.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by joshuamorton on Sunday September 18, 2022 @05:04AM (#32885777)
> And that is completely consistent with precedent that the First Amendment actually protects people from censorship.

This is not the precedent! The first amendment absolutely allows citizens to engage in editorialization and "censorship".

The first amendment protects you from the government! And it gives me the right to assembly, including assembly with others in the form of a joint business venture! And if I assemble with others, very importantly: I don't lose my constitutional rights. Because even when I am assembled, I am protected from government overreach.

The Bill of Rights doesn't protect you from me, and it never has. The Bill of Rights does not protect you from censorship, and it never has. The Bill of Rights does precisely one thing: it protects you, and me, from the government and government overreach. And the government preventing me from speaking against you is government censorship of me.

Like, the ACLU, EFF, and Cato Institute all filed amicus briefs supporting NetChoice (previously when the even dumber part of this ruling was before the Supreme Court).

Edit in response to the below:

no, social media sites aren't common carriers, and you've already admitted that your whole fairness doctrine schtick is a stretch, since the internet's infrastructure isn't licensed by the government (and of course, it cannot be: I don't need a license to upload things!) Treating point-to-point social media, such as instant messaging, like a common carrier might make sense, but a reddit comment or a tweet don't resemble what common carriers carry or how common carriers work. They don't have a destination.

It's also, of course, important to note that there is no constitutional right to ship goods, so while it may be reasonable to regulate such industries, regulating a company whose product is speech is much more tenuous, so while the government can absolutely do common carrier things to a shipping company, it is enjoined, by the constitution, from making a speech company a common carrier.

Edit again:

Phone companies don't produce speech. I cannot hear what you say on the phone. I can see what you tweet. You might rephrase it as publishing vs. messaging. The regulations on a company whose product is publishing cannot be treated the same way as anything else (cue irrelevant arguing about a misunderstanding of section 230). Reddit and twitter and such allow me to publish what I say. T-mobile ships what I say. Common carrier regulations apply only to shipping companies, not publishing companies.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by leereeves on Sunday September 18, 2022 @05:07AM (#32885784)
The only reason the First Amendment is in this discussion at all is because the companies are claiming that the First Amendment forbids laws like this, which is clearly false, since such laws have existed for a long time (as mentioned above).

I didn't mean to imply that the First Amendment forbids private censorship (other laws do that). What I meant was, the First Amendment protects people from censorship, when it applies. It's perverse logic to claim that an amendment that prevents government censorship really means that there's a right to censor.

And everything about corporations is an irrelevant distraction; the law would also apply to an individual who owned and operated a social media network entirely by themselves as a sole proprietor.

Edit in response to edit:

> you've already admitted that your whole fairness doctrine schtick is a stretch

No, I admitted that there are some differences. The essential argument, that the First Amendment does not forbid such laws, remains relevant.

> social media sites aren't common carriers

They are if the government says they are, as recently happened to ISPs. This law doesn't exactly do that, but it has similar effect, and that's relevant because it shows that laws with this effect are constitutional.

> [the government] is enjoined, by the constitution, from making a speech company a common carrier.

Phone companies transmit speech, and are considered common carriers.

Edit again:

Whether the communications tech is one to one or one to many, the speech is still the speech of the person communicating, not the tech company. Any free speech rights belong to the writer, not the company that owns the wires or software involved in transmission.

Publishers are something different entirely. Their core business is content creation, not operating the printing press or website. They pay their writers and tell them what to write about. They own the content they publish. And yes, they are responsible for what they publish.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by joshuamorton on Sunday September 18, 2022 @07:16AM (#32886541)
Publishers were historically (and still are!) literally the people who owned the presses, lol. Like you went to a publisher to get your manuscript printed. All the other things, like editing and marketing were secondary to these were the people who could actually mass produce your book. The NYT and WaPo own their presses.

The core business of a publisher, historically, has been the facilitation of scalable access to content created by other people. Even newspapers don't really "tell them what to write about", they hire (or use freelancers!) people who work on their own stories and submit them to the paper. And while newspapers do usually own the content they publish, they don't always, and book publishing houses rarely do.

So the WaPo's and HarperCollins's of the world are a lot more like the YouTube's and Reddit's than you seem to think.

And yes, the individuals who write the articles have first amendment (not "free speech", nobody in the US has a "free speech" right, that isn't a thing) rights. But so too do the Washington Post, and Penguin RandomHouse.

And even though lots of people have had OpEd's in the NYT, and even though Hachette has published books by tons of authors, they're under no requirement to publish my works, because they fully and totally have the right to not enter into a relationship with me, and have the right to not assist me in broadcasting my content. And the first amendment protects their right to associate with and how they want to, and that includes not associating with me.

I want to emphasize this by the way, because earlier you said

> it's arguing that censorship isn't speech

And this fundamentally doesn't matter, because the first amendment protects a number of things that aren't speech, including assembly. I can assemble with whom I want to (and also refuse to assemble with those I don't want to). I cannot be forced into service of any particular individual, and this is true for common carriers, they're not in service of an individual, but of an item. As soon as the thing you're doing is promoting an individual's words or brand, you're not doing what a common carrier is doing.

Shipping a box is exactly the same whether it is your box or Donald Trump's box. But broadcasting a speech on my loudspeaker isn't the same if its your speech or Donald Trump's. As much as you wish it to be, you cannot make those two situations the same.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by leereeves on Sunday September 18, 2022 @07:49AM (#32886741)
> I can...refuse to assemble with [meaning doing business with] those I don't want to

> I cannot be forced into service of [again meaning doing business with] any particular [party]

In many cases you are free to refuse to do business with someone, simply because no law exists against it. But you don't have a right to refuse; the government can pass a law punishing you for refusing; and they have passed many such laws.

For example, in many states, you are forbidden to refuse to do business with Israel.

And you're forbidden to refuse to do business with people for a variety of reasons called protected characteristics. The list of such characteristics has grown quite long and includes (in some states) political affiliation, belief, or activity.

From that standpoint, this law is not unusual at all.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by joshuamorton on Sunday September 18, 2022 @08:09AM (#32886865)
> And you're forbidden to refuse to do business with people for a variety of reasons called protected characteristics. (One of which is, in California, political affiliation.)

Due to a constitutional amendment! And even in California, companies are free not to do business without you based on your political beliefs they just can't retaliate against you in the workplace. And of course, the whole discrimination thing only applies if there's not a legitimate non-protected class reason, as we know from masterpiece cake shop.

> For example, in many states, you are forbidden to refuse to do business with Israel, and have been for many decades

Those laws would be unconstitutional and unenforceable. Actual on the books anti-bds laws are much more limited, usually only banning government contractors from boycotting Israel, and even that much more limited stance may be unconstitutional (see a recent Texas anti-bds law that's currently enjoined by the district court due to it's infringement on a corporations first amendment rights!...https://www.salon.com/2022/02/02/anti-bds-law-in-texas-free-...)

There are lots of unconstitutional laws on the books (miscegenation is illegal in a few states, technically), they just can't be enforced, but you aren't doing yourself favors by citing exaggerated, clearly unconstitutional versions of dubiously legal laws as a defense of this one.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by leereeves on Sunday September 18, 2022 @08:41AM (#32887049)
> see a recent Texas anti-bds law that's currently enjoined by the district court due to it's infringement on a corporations first amendment rights!...https://www.salon.com/2022/02/02/anti-bds-law-in-texas-free-...)

That's quite a weak example in which a single low-level judge issued an injunction but "stopped short of fully blocking a state law" and an advocacy group claimed the law was unconstitutional.

Anti-BDS laws have existed in many states for quite some time, under many different courts, and not been overturned. So until a SC decision finally finds such laws unconstitutional, I will continue to accept that they are, even though I am strongly against them.

> the whole discrimination thing only applies if there's not a legitimate non-protected class reason

Protected classes vary by state. In Texas, because of this law, political belief is now effectively a protected class, at least w.r.t social media.

As you said, Twitter can still claim "a legitimate non-protected class reason" (like, the account is a bot) for terminating accounts, but can't "discriminate" against political views.

The California version forbids retaliation in the workplace, the Texas version forbids retaliation on social media. They aren't so different.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by joshuamorton on Sunday September 18, 2022 @05:05PM (#32891511)
> Anti-BDS laws have existed in many states for quite some time, under many different courts, and not been overturned. So until a SC decision finally finds such laws unconstitutional, I will continue to accept that they are, even though I am strongly against them.

That's fine, but they still don't do what you claimed. Your said the laws prevent me from choosing but to do business with Israel. That's not true. That law has the government put a particular line in it's contracts. The government, when acting more or less as a private actor, can do what it wants with it's contracts, even things that would be unconstitutional if passed as a blanket law.

> As you said, Twitter can still claim "a legitimate non-protected class reason" (like, the account is a bot) for terminating accounts, but can't "discriminate" against political views.

It already does: threats of violence are like the primary reason accounts are removed. Being republican isn't carte blanche to threaten or harass people, and neither is being a tankie, and that's why Twitter removed accounts from all sides of the political spectrum without discrimination!

> In Texas, because of this law, political belief is now effectively a protected class, at least w.r.t social media.

No, that's not at all what that means. For one just no. But second, this law goes beyond that and bans speaker neutral, content based policies that aren't indented to discriminate, like for example saying "you're not allowed to threaten to kill people on our platform".

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by BlueTemplar on Sunday September 18, 2022 @07:49AM (#32886737)
By "publisher" I would assume there is some editorializing going on that makes the publisher legally liable for what they publish. GAF(AM)s are trying to have freedom of a common carrier with the power of a publisher (see my comment in parallel).
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by BlueTemplar on Sunday September 18, 2022 @07:32AM (#32886624)
Yep, when Facebook first started moderating messages and/or selecting what users view with an algorithm more complicated than "what has been posted last", it was predicted that they were opening themselves to the "publishers are responsible for what they publish" legal attack.

And here we are. These corporations want to have their cake and eat it too...

At the time a lot of people have considered the very concept of platform as evil for this reason ("protocols not platforms"), but this was also related to issues coming from their use of closed source software, and more importantly : antitrust - the mere size of these corporation makes them at the very least "friendly elephant in a china shop" kind of evil, but the USA didn't want to shut down the GAFAMs considering the immense not so soft power their monopolies give them in the world.

A less radical proposal was to have some allowed middle ground between common carrier and publisher : "displayer", but this would still need to come with severe restrictions to what these companies are currently enjoying in the current "lawless" void : again, restrictions on size, kind (think Wikipedia or archival), running as a for-profit, forced usage of interoperable protocols, use of open source software, have been suggested and even somewhat put into practice in recent EUropean laws (though it is suspected that due to the heavy lobbying that the GAFAMs have done, the end result is more that the current laws are helping them by making it harder for new competitors to emerge, while they are so big they can bear the regulatory brunt).

(P.S.: It's kind of amusing to see Texas Republicans to be a shining beacon of liberalism...)

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by joshuamorton on Sunday September 18, 2022 @08:14AM (#32886896)
This is a non sequitur. It is legal to repeal section 230. It would be bad, but it is legal. But in either case, the law under discussion is unconstitutional. And it'd be doubly unconstitutional if you're claiming that the point of this law is to get around a federal law. States can't do that, that's the point of the supremacy clause.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by leereeves on Sunday September 18, 2022 @10:00AM (#32887618)
Every time you use the word "unconstitutional", it should be prefaced by "IMO".

> the point of this law is to get around a federal law. States can't do that, that's the point of the supremacy clause.

How many states have made marijuana legal despite federal law?

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by joshuamorton on Sunday September 18, 2022 @05:28PM (#32891655)
There is nothing stopping the federal government from arresting me, in California, for marijuana related crimes. And it regularly does (trafficking), because federal law supersedes state law.

The federal government choosing not to for most cases, and choosing to functionally defer to the states does not affect what it is allowed to do.

And there is a difference between making something illegal and making something legal. Once the federal govt says something is legal, supremacy prevents states from making it illegal (remember the Republican talking point about how the Dems could pass a national abortion legalization law? That works because of the supremacy clause).

Like it's really clear at this point you know basically nothing about how the us legal system works. Because you keep bringing up these things that just are not relevant. And I don't really want to teach you.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by thaumasiotes on Sunday September 18, 2022 @04:51AM (#32885709)
> Even FedEx could x-ray packages, or use drug sniffers.

You're forgetting the much easier, and historically important, method of simply opening the packages and looking inside.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by bojangleslover on Saturday September 17, 2022 @05:36PM (#32881821)
Oldest trick in the book
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by hedora on Saturday September 17, 2022 @10:10PM (#32883702)
Corporations are people. This clearly defines bots hired by any corporation that is in, does buisness with, or communicates with a person in Texas as a "user".

Edit: Skipped a step: When spent by a corporation, the courts have ruled that money is speech. Therefore, the bot's output is clearly the speech of the corporation, which is definitely a person.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by kortilla on Saturday September 17, 2022 @10:31PM (#32883848)
> Corporations are people.

No they are not. They share some specific rights as people, but are not people. A corporation can’t be murdered, can’t vote, can’t be imprisoned, can’t marry another person, etc.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by Kamq on Saturday September 17, 2022 @11:16PM (#32884096)
The concept is a "legal person", which means there's a whole host of things corporations can do.

The big ones being that they can be sued and charged for breaking the law, you can't do either of those things with, say, a rock or a dog.

They can also sue you back which is, admittedly, less fun.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by zarzavat on Sunday September 18, 2022 @03:02AM (#32885165)
All very true, but at the risk of laboring the point, a legal person is not a person, just like a sperm bank is not a bank. A noun phrase is not necessarily a sub-category of the original noun. This is underlined by the use of the plural “legal persons”, rather “legal people” which is usually reserved for meat sacks with law degrees.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by Kamq on Sunday September 18, 2022 @08:25AM (#32886965)
> A noun phrase is not necessarily a sub-category of the original noun.

This is actually something I had not fully considered. I had always considered odd modifiers to create a non-central example of the category, rather than creating a new category.

To take your example of a sperm bank, I had always considered that to be a kind of generalized version of a bank. A general "place you can deposit things for future use".

Do you have any other good examples? I'm gonna have to let this roll around in my head for a bit to see what the implications are.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by droidist2 on Monday September 19, 2022 @01:06PM (#32901016)
One confounding factor is that some words have multiple meanings or connotations. A "bank" doesn't have to be a financial bank. Or sometimes names can be chained together, like maybe "sperm bank" is based on "food bank" or "seed bank".
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by Kamq on Monday September 19, 2022 @09:22PM (#32906486)
Alright, so I finally went and checked, and (according to merriam webster), the following definitions of "bank" are reasonably commonly used (none marked with archaic or obscure).

> a supply of something held in reserve

> a place where something is held available (especially : a depot for the collection and storage of a biological product)

Both of which fit food bank, seed bank, and sperm bank.

Which means that a sperm bank probably is properly a bank, although used without qualification, most people probably mean money bank (or are being intentionally ambiguous to avoid the stigma of needing a food bank/going to a sperm bank).

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by hedora on Sunday September 18, 2022 @12:47PM (#32889031)
Accoring to the citizens united finding, their rights extend to free speech (and specifically to otherwise-illegal political speech), and therefore presumably this law.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by vel0city on Sunday September 18, 2022 @01:58AM (#32884817)
> can’t marry another person

Don't you dare dash my dreams of getting married to Costco.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by spamizbad on Saturday September 17, 2022 @10:03PM (#32883662)
The term "bot" doesn't necessarily suggest something automated in the context of social media. I could pay a bunch of people overseas to do the same thing manually as well. They are all technically "users".
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by BlueTemplar on Sunday September 18, 2022 @07:53AM (#32886762)
Since when ? I'm pretty sure that's called astroturfing - the difficulty of separating some of real people from bots doesn't change that legally there's a pretty big difference...
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by garyfirestorm on Sunday September 18, 2022 @12:11AM (#32884353)
If bots earn money, is their income subjected to tax? If yes then they are people.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by onlyrealcuzzo on Sunday September 18, 2022 @01:27AM (#32884658)
So can I post AI generated underage pictures of Doland Trump as an 8-year old having sex with a boar without censorship?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by jrockway on Sunday September 18, 2022 @05:39AM (#32885961)
Someone else is way ahead of you there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashcroft_v._Free_Speech_Coalit.... The underage part seems to be in the clear. Fucking a boar is less clear (plain old obscenity, the first amendment's greatest weakness).
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by headsoup on Sunday September 18, 2022 @01:30AM (#32884676)
Is that already illegal? If so, no, if not, yes.

Being offensive is not the measure for applying censorship.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by onlyrealcuzzo on Sunday September 18, 2022 @01:37AM (#32884713)
But platforms can currently decide to censor stuff if that want - which usually includes porn. Now they can't.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by coffeeblack on Saturday September 17, 2022 @01:52PM (#32879602)
Let each user block what they don’t want to see. With filters, ai, etc. Don’t have a centralized “overlord” decide what an individual is allowed to see. That should be obvious and not controversial.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by CJefferson on Saturday September 17, 2022 @02:10PM (#32879785)
Having run a mail server, I don't think it's reasonable to expect most people to contain the deluge of spam and phishing attacks they would get if just told them to "sort it out" themselves.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by concinds on Saturday September 17, 2022 @05:55PM (#32881987)
A better comparison would be if Gmail placed emails you really want to receive in the spam for you. Actually, they wouldn't even put it in the spam folder; they'd just delete it permanently before you can read it, "for your safety".

With email, if you don't want to receive someone's emails anymore, you unsubscribe. Or put it in spam (equivalent to social media block) and you won't see those emails anymore.

"Platforms" claim that because they're platforms, they have a duty to "remove toxic elements from the platform". That doesn't work when they're practically monopolies for online speech, i.e. when if you get banned by one and you're famous enough, you get banned by all of them.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by zrail on Saturday September 17, 2022 @06:42PM (#32882326)
> A better comparison would be if Gmail placed emails you really want to receive in the spam for you. Actually, they wouldn't even put it in the spam folder; they'd just delete it permanently before you can read it

Gmail regularly does both of these things to me despite explicit filter rules to the contrary.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by ekianjo on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:48PM (#32883573)
And is that desirable?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by zrail on Sunday September 18, 2022 @10:16AM (#32887748)
No of course not.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by MandieD on Saturday September 17, 2022 @07:16PM (#32882586)
GMail does this with my absentee ballots if I don't get lucky and see them go to Spam instead, because the State of Texas gives counties that really don't care about citizens who live overseas a system for generating ballots that is so slapdash that emails are from a domain that doesn't have DKIM or SPF, and the link to click is HTTP and not even an FQDN, but an IP address.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by quantumwannabe on Saturday September 17, 2022 @11:02PM (#32884033)
Why should you have the right to vote in a place where you don't live?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by MandieD on Sunday September 18, 2022 @02:49AM (#32885085)
Because US citizens have the right to vote in federal elections, no matter where they live, and which set of federal officials (senators and US House district, and state electoral votes for President) you are voting for is chosen by your last US residence before moving, or if you’ve never lived in the US (like my child might), by where one of your US citizen parents last lived. It’s then up to that state whether you can also vote in state and local elections.

If you are a US citizen, even if you’ve never lived in the US (born to a US citizen parent), get on over to https://fvap.gov to get yourself registered and request your absentee ballot. Hurry up, because the deadline for most states is rather soon, and a lot of them still require the registration to happen via paper mail - plus, you need time for the ballot to get to you and for you to mail it back.

As long as the US is going to insist I report all my German income and accounts that I’ve already paid Germany’s well-collected taxes on, you’re darn right I should have the right to vote!

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by toastal on Saturday September 17, 2022 @11:17PM (#32884098)
Because you're a citizen and you pay taxes.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by kaibee on Sunday September 18, 2022 @01:30AM (#32884681)
It is possible to live somewhere for 9 months every year and yet those 3 months you're not there could be when voting happens.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by coffeeblack on Saturday September 17, 2022 @02:24PM (#32879920)
You misunderstood. Don’t require users to build their bubbles, but have providers offer bubbles for a user to choose from. You could even have external bubble providers that offer different technologies and qualities of filters.

Just don’t have one centralised overlord.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by fshbbdssbbgdd on Saturday September 17, 2022 @02:58PM (#32880301)
> providers offer bubbles for a user to choose from

How is this different from the current internet?

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by infogulch on Saturday September 17, 2022 @03:33PM (#32880683)
The platform is tied to the bubble. GP is proposing decoupling them, so the user can choose the platform and choose the bubble separately.

> Tying (informally, product tying) is the practice of selling one product or service as a mandatory addition to the purchase of a different product or service. In legal terms, a tying sale makes the sale of one good (the tying good) to the de facto customer (or de jure customer) conditional on the purchase of a second distinctive good (the tied good). Tying is often illegal when the products are not naturally related.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tying_(commerce)

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by fshbbdssbbgdd on Saturday September 17, 2022 @03:47PM (#32880847)
The bubble must by necessity have some sort of interface associated with it in order to get the content to the user. There’s a generic platform (HTTP, browser/mobile APIs) and then the “bubble service” implements against those to reach the user. Seems like a completely natural form of tying to me. Are you proposing we force another layer of middlemen to be added in between there?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by infogulch on Saturday September 17, 2022 @04:05PM (#32881053)
I think there's a reasonable argument to be made that the problems surrounding platforms regarding their control of censorship & free speech would be largely resolved if that aspect were decoupled. You may also think that the tying that bell and the railroads did with their respective infrastructure is 'natural', but that was made illegal and those platforms were forced to break up, so I don't think its appropriate to dismiss this issue offhand.

I'm not interested in hashing out a complete argument and coming to a vacuous conclusion with some other random on an internet forum, I'm just saying that there seems to be a reasonable argument to be had in this direction.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by evrydayhustling on Saturday September 17, 2022 @08:36PM (#32883146)
Who decides which is the platform and which is the bubble? Seems like Twitter wants to define moderation policies (probably because they think that getting people to value Twitter means placing an some rules on the conversation). Who gets to say that they are a platform forced to carry all bubbles?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by monetus on Saturday September 17, 2022 @03:45PM (#32880823)
Is the implication that you would have a Netflix/Hulu/Disney dynamic of... Social media subscriptions?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by nmstoker on Saturday September 17, 2022 @06:56PM (#32882434)
This seems like it could be substantially better than current systems.

It could be effectively a crowdsource / peer recommended model where you opt in to aspects of the bubbles. So my elderly parents could get some of the safety guidance mirroring mine (eg weeding out conspiracy thought or spam) but then also picking up aspects that mirror older peers (eg reflecting their more traditional tastes)

Right now there's a remarkable amount of undesirable content that gets through that ought to be easy to filter. On Twitter you see it a load with searches for regular terms that show up inappropriate content for the term, yet you don't want to set content filtering or it cuts things that are genuinely interesting but edgy!

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by greesil on Saturday September 17, 2022 @02:36PM (#32880041)
we have a centralized overlord?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by eitland on Saturday September 17, 2022 @03:42PM (#32880783)
Several:

- Google (including GMail)

- Twitter

- Meta (Facebook, Instagram)

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by greesil on Saturday September 17, 2022 @05:49PM (#32881935)
And discussion outside of these platforms is impossible?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by sfifs on Saturday September 17, 2022 @06:22PM (#32882188)
Not impossible. Insignificant in volume.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by cguess on Saturday September 17, 2022 @06:43PM (#32882339)
He said on a platform that's controlled by any of those organizations.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by drewrv on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:47PM (#32883566)
The number of people here who claim to hate moderation blows my mind.

If someone thinks far right content is reasonable and good it would be refreshing to hear that take.

Instead people bend themselves into logical pretzels to oppose the idea of moderation for supposedly “content neutral” reasons. It’s tiresome.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by Karunamon on Saturday September 17, 2022 @11:08PM (#32884058)
It would be equally refreshing to see "moderation" advocates acknowledge that it's not just the "far right" being bullied and censored off of mainstream platforms.

That straw man incinerated and replaced with "mainstream conservative content", you still are not going to get any examples because the one providing that will be voted/flagged into invisibility, or if not that, the resulting discussion will be derailed into quibbling about the specific example rather than the much more important general principle.

It would be not at all honest to imply that this forum is anything but generally hostile to the American right, regardless of how extreme or not the take is. With that in mind, it is no surprise that specific positions are only ever mentioned indirectly, or negatively.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by cycomanic on Saturday September 17, 2022 @11:22PM (#32884128)
Yes no proponent of this law ever complained about ISIS recruiting accounts being banned by twitter.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by Karunamon on Saturday September 17, 2022 @11:44PM (#32884222)
It is definitely federally illegal on the grounds of sanctions [1], if not treason, to knowingly provide service to the Islamic State. Twitter's hands are tied.

[1]: https://sanctionssearch.ofac.treas.gov/Details.aspx?id=8759

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by cycomanic on Sunday September 18, 2022 @12:30AM (#32884438)
So I guess government restricting free speech is fine?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by sfifs on Sunday September 18, 2022 @08:47AM (#32887086)
If you are in a democratic country, your society has explicitly granted your government authority through your voting systems to be the ultimate arbiter and parts of it can and does get revoked as the will of the society changes.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by indecisive_user on Sunday September 18, 2022 @01:08AM (#32884592)
Whataboutism. Government passing laws on free speech is unrelated to internet platforms enforcing arbitrary rules depending on the outrage mob of the week.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by cycomanic on Sunday September 18, 2022 @12:33AM (#32884456)
Also I am not certain that publishing tweets is a violation of sanctions?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by concordDance on Sunday September 18, 2022 @06:37AM (#32886287)
Personally I complained about that to anyone who'd listen.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by concordDance on Sunday September 18, 2022 @06:39AM (#32886306)
I, for one, would like to hear far right takes just in case they're reasonable and good. I don't want to have to argue that any particular one is good without even being able to see them.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by treeman79 on Saturday September 17, 2022 @11:10PM (#32884068)
Should boys be allowed into a girls locker room. Ignoring feelings of the girls. That is now considered a far right questions.

Should a million or two people be allowed to enter the country with no rules or oversight. Again, far right.

Should parents have a say in child’s education. Far right question.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by greesil on Saturday September 17, 2022 @11:38PM (#32884196)
And then I found the strawmen three, but not the original ones we were looking for.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by Dylan16807 on Sunday September 18, 2022 @12:58PM (#32889150)
The context where those count as "far right" is when someone is lying about the actual issue.

Those three actual opinions are completely uncontroversial. But people pretend other issues are those issues so they can be the common-sense instant victor.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by etchalon on Sunday September 18, 2022 @01:32AM (#32884689)
Ah yes, because it's the questions and not the answers that have ideological implications.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by drewrv on Sunday September 18, 2022 @02:38AM (#32885031)
These takes are all over social media so if they’re supposed to be banned then the real crime is how bad social media giants are at tracking down this nonsense.

What mostly gets banned at big social media sites is spam and bots. The political speech that does get banned is overwhelmingly violent.

The right gets banned more because there is no liberal equivalent of the Christchurch shooter, the Buffalo shooter, the El Paso shooter, the Charleston shooter, the Tree of Life shooter.

The last president got kicked from Twitter because he tried to violently overthrow our government.

Kiwifarms was finally taken down by cloudflare only because of immediate threats of violence.

The right wing in the US has a violence problem. Culture war junk and social media moderation policies pale in comparison to this problem.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by tjpnz on Sunday September 18, 2022 @03:58AM (#32885451)
I'm not sure why you're trying to link Kiwi Farms to the far right. I wouldn't consider myself a fan of the site, but from what I've seen it's very much apolitical and political views from either side are generally frowned upon.

>Kiwifarms was finally taken down by cloudflare only because of immediate threats of violence.

A single threat of violence originating from a long dormant account which had posted once, in 2018. It was reported multiple times and removed by Kiwi Farms moderators within 30 minutes. It wouldn't be unreasonable to conclude that there might've been shenanigans at play. Possibly by the same actors behind the DDoS campaign.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by treeman79 on Monday September 19, 2022 @12:55PM (#32900852)
Your just repeating liberal lies.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by revscat on Saturday September 17, 2022 @10:54PM (#32883985)
Echoing the sibling to this, this is not a viewpoint I have seen expressed before. Do you have a link?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by greesil on Saturday September 17, 2022 @11:35PM (#32884180)
A link to their own opinions? Huh?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by cdash on Sunday September 18, 2022 @01:14AM (#32884606)
It is both reasonable and good.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by drewrv on Sunday September 18, 2022 @02:01AM (#32884841)
It would be refreshing to hear this take for once :)
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by greesil on Saturday September 17, 2022 @11:34PM (#32884172)
But not tiresome enough you keep engaging with the pretzly people :)
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by drewrv on Sunday September 18, 2022 @02:01AM (#32884839)
I yearn for the day we can defeat bad faith losers and get back to discussing what really matters: tabs vs spaces.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by kortilla on Saturday September 17, 2022 @10:34PM (#32883870)
“I’m flabbergasted these strawmen I’m attacking exist!”
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by greesil on Saturday September 17, 2022 @11:36PM (#32884185)
Do you have a link to these strawmen?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by cowtools on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:06PM (#32883341)
It's controlled by Ycombinator, who uses the forum to showcase their own interests.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by senorrib on Saturday September 17, 2022 @07:38PM (#32882738)
They certainly did not.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by evrydayhustling on Saturday September 17, 2022 @08:38PM (#32883152)
So free speech = free access to a high volume of people?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by infotogivenm on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:03PM (#32883323)
“I’ve been sending the Times a list of headlines to publish every week, and so far they’ve all been censored your honor!”
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by cowtools on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:07PM (#32883351)
Email and other Internet infrastructure is more analogous to the phone company than news publishing, because you do not need to "peer" with other newspapers to get published.

Imagine if Bell was touchy about letting "undesirables" use their service.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by infotogivenm on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:11PM (#32883379)
Oh I 100% agree, if this argument were about the ISPs, which control access to the infrastructure via local monopolies.

It’s not. It’s about individual private publishers, of which there are potentially infinite. That is the beauty of the internet.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by cowtools on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:30PM (#32883488)
The internet infrastructure is completely controlled via local monopolies and bureaucracies, and this extends beyond ISPs. The entire DNS and PKI system for example is simply a racketeering scheme for registrars and CAs. In general the internet (from the hardware to application-level) is structured in such a way that is weak to sybil attacks, and this requires central (usually corporate) entities to discriminate on traffic.

EMail is one such example: there is no meaningful way to filter spam, so the peering relationships between mail providers break down unless they each implement some sybil-proofing on their own side. The end product is that everyone is forced to use a provider like Google, and play a corporate-political game to stay in good favor with their peers. This is because there is no spam-resistance on Email application level

We've seen a similar situation this week with a controversial forum called KiwiFarm taken down by DDoS. They need to maintain a political relationship with their DDoS-protection provider, CloudFlare, who also controls a massive chunk of the internet infrastructure. This is all so that there can be a central entity that discriminates on the traffic, as there's no spam resistance features on IP level.

https://secushare.org/broken-internet

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by cowtools on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:05PM (#32883332)
You can set up your own mail provider, but if GMail blocks messages sent from your new provider, it will never overcome network effects needed for success.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by scarface74 on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:04PM (#32883328)
You mean like Truth Social?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by ekianjo on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:49PM (#32883581)
Ask Parler
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by cmoscoso on Saturday September 17, 2022 @06:15PM (#32882141)
Yes.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by ItsMonkk on Sunday September 18, 2022 @12:16AM (#32884377)
uBlock Filters, but for email.

uBlock Filters, but for Twitter.

uBlock Filters, but for ...

Just let us choose which ones we can activate, and if we want to see the unfiltered list we'll turn it off and refresh.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by hiram112 on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:41PM (#32883537)
I can already imagine how these totally neutral "providers" like Google and Twitter would implement this, much like Microsoft abuses their OS monopoly to ensure 90% of non-tech-savvy users will eventually be using Edge.

Sign up for Twitter. Immediately you're greeted with a list of "suggested filters" that will pop up again and again, using dark patterns eventually, until you either give in or are tricked into adding Twitter's highly recommended "safe filter plus package" that uses the exact same shadow bans and biased algorithms used by default today.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by dane-pgp on Sunday September 18, 2022 @03:58AM (#32885453)
Good, and then we'll get the government to start banning dark patterns.

Actually, I suspect that such a law would be on even shakier First Amendment grounds, but here's a test that might bring this regulation into the realms of competition law rather than regulating speech:

Whenever a (sufficiently large) platform makes a UI change about which the FTC receive multiple negative comments, that platform is required to run a poll of (some random subset of) its users, with a wording specified by the FTC, asking the users if they like the change or they find it manipulative.

If most users think that the change is negative, then that's a de facto / prima facie case of the platform abusing its monopoly power to the detriment of its users, since if there were a free market then those users would simply move to a competing platform.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by ericbarrett on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:26PM (#32883466)
If this case law holds, would it be extended to filter providers?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by adventured on Saturday September 17, 2022 @02:16PM (#32879832)
There's a very simple solution that works very well with social media for that.

You don't receive the OP's messages unless you are friends him them, or change your default settings to allow strangers to message you.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by hedora on Saturday September 17, 2022 @10:31PM (#32883851)
Or, like linkedin: Charge a small amount to send messages to non-friends.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by hedora on Saturday September 17, 2022 @10:30PM (#32883842)
Thunderbird used to have a local spam filter. It was fine.

As for phishing attacks: Education is helpful. It would help if organizations with legitimate flows that are indistinguishable from phishing attacks were made liable. (Mortgage industry: I'm looking at you.)

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by BlueTemplar on Sunday September 18, 2022 @08:02AM (#32886816)
It still does ?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by hedora on Sunday September 18, 2022 @12:43PM (#32889002)
I haven't used their spam filter for over a decade. (Fast mail's spam filter is good enough.)
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by caeril on Sunday September 18, 2022 @02:06PM (#32889815)
Fair point, but if all accounts were given a standard default policy modeled around current moderation rules, and users were permitted to edit the policy from that initial point, this would be an effective solution.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by ajvs on Saturday September 17, 2022 @02:22PM (#32879900)
Or following the mail example, adopt a spam control mechanism that doesn't require coding it yourself.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by ineptech on Saturday September 17, 2022 @04:30PM (#32881282)
"Hey Twitter, please block this crap" is users trying to block what they don't want to see.

Blocking unpopular content doesn't become a political act just because one side produces more of it than the other.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by catiopatio on Saturday September 17, 2022 @05:37PM (#32881826)
> "Hey Twitter, please block this crap" is users trying to block what they don't want to see.

No, it's users trying to censor what they don't want other people to be permitted to say or see.

Twitter users have a "block" button; they're free to use it, and thus limit what they themselves will see.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by ineptech on Saturday September 17, 2022 @06:35PM (#32882270)
Being kicked off Twitter isn't the same as being silenced.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by catiopatio on Saturday September 17, 2022 @06:48PM (#32882367)
What would you call it?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by the_jesus_villa on Saturday September 17, 2022 @07:41PM (#32882766)
Well, here in Guatemala journalists are being silenced, and it doesn't mean they're being kicked off Twitter. I really hate big tech censorship, but you're naivete about the impact of "being silenced" reminds me of this part from Days and Nights of Love and of War

>Perdí varias cosas en Buenos Aires... No me quejo. Con tantas personas perdidas, llorar por las cosas sería como faltarle el respeto al dolor.

Translates roughly as:

>I lost various things in Buenos Aires... I don't complain. With so many people lost, to cry over things seemed to lack respect for suffering.

In a kind of similar vein, you're complaint about Twitter users being silenced lacks some respect for people who are actually being silenced. Although I agree with your underlying sentiment.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by catiopatio on Saturday September 17, 2022 @07:50PM (#32882824)
Obviously, "silenced" has different meanings and weight depending on the context in which it's being used, but ... I never actually used the term, so it's an odd point of contention to raise.

The original statement I replied to — which was also the first time "silenced" was used in this thread — was:

> Being kicked off Twitter isn't the same as being silenced.

In reply, I asked "What would you call it?".

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by infotogivenm on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:09PM (#32883365)
Banned from one of a universe of private platforms for breaking their specific terms of service?

In any case, do we really want the government to start dictating to private sector publishing companies what content they must publish?

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by catiopatio on Saturday September 17, 2022 @10:08PM (#32883691)
> do we really want the government to start dictating to private sector publishing companies what content they must publish?

Yes, I think we do, if it’s in exchange for their currently privileged position.

Currently, they operate with the privileges of a common carrier, and none of the responsibilities.

They shouldn’t have the privilege of being shielded from responsibility for what they publish on behalf of others, while also claiming that doing so represents their own protected speech.

If they want to editorialize, they can be treated like any other publisher, and be held responsible for what they publish — including disinformation, libel, harassment, et al.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by hedora on Saturday September 17, 2022 @10:44PM (#32883923)
They are definitely not common carriers. That is a well-defned legal term, and Twitter simply does not meet the bar:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_carrier

> A common carrier in common law countries (corresponding to a public carrier in some civil law systems,[1] usually called simply a carrier)[2] is a person or company that transports goods or people for any person or company and is responsible for any possible loss of the goods during transport.[3] A common carrier offers its services to the general public under license or authority provided by a regulatory body, which has usually been granted "ministerial authority" by the legislation that created it.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by catiopatio on Saturday September 17, 2022 @10:58PM (#32884009)
Of course they’re not common carriers; that’s the whole problem.

They were granted the traditional privileges of common carrier status under section 230 of the CDA, but none of the responsibilities.

Refer to the “telecommunications” section of the Wikipedia page you’ve cited, where this specific topic is covered, along with additional references for further details.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by vel0city on Sunday September 18, 2022 @02:06AM (#32884861)
Section 230 of the CDA never uses the term "common carrier". In fact, "Interactive computer service" was the exact phrase of language that ISPs successfully lobbied themselves to be classified as to avoid common carrier regulations.

Being a "Interactive computer service" != being a "common carrier". Pointing to Section 230 as an example of "common carrier" statues is massively misunderstanding the "ISPs as common carriers" debate.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by hedora on Sunday September 18, 2022 @12:42PM (#32888992)
One of the other commenters (and also Texas...) claim they are common carriers.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by nanidin on Sunday September 18, 2022 @12:46AM (#32884509)
As someone that doesn’t use Twitter, I can confirm that I am not silent and that any model where one is silenced by being removed from Twitter is similar to geocentricity.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by BlueTemplar on Sunday September 18, 2022 @08:06AM (#32886845)
I agree with the sentiment but a LOT of journalists seem to not only take Twitter seriously enough to report about the nonsense that its users are rambling about, but even use it themselves !
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by eduction on Saturday September 17, 2022 @08:04PM (#32882931)
What about the “Net Centers” in Guatemala? Don’t they use platforms like Twitter to actually harass/silence dissidents? Obviously social media isnt everything, but Morales and his backers sure showed how important it is. Or do you disagree?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by the_jesus_villa on Sunday September 18, 2022 @12:16PM (#32888745)
Oh completely agree. But to put this in the context of the current argument, the solution (from Twitter's perspective) would be to ban the net center accounts. And I don't think Twitter banning Net Centers would have "silenced" Jimmy Morales, for example.

Social media can definitely be used to silence people, but I don't think that's mostly what's happening (for the most part) wrt big tech banning certain controversial content on their platforms.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by eduction on Sunday September 18, 2022 @07:27PM (#32892436)
Well put, thanks! Interesting.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by scarface74 on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:06PM (#32883347)
Is Twitter the only way to communicate over the Internet?

Why is a “social media” company headed by the most popular “conservative” in America failing?

Why can’t FoxNews create its own social media company?

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by cowtools on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:11PM (#32883380)
Pulled from payment processor, DDoS protection, etc.

"If they don't like it, why can't they just create their own internet that we will not be able to access?"

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by scarface74 on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:14PM (#32883402)
That’s not why Truth Social is failing

https://time.com/6209392/truth-social-financial-problems-tru...

Trump is supposedly a billionaire. He couldn’t fund the equivalent of Cloudflare if he desires? He couldn’t find enough like minded investors?

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by cowtools on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:32PM (#32883495)
Sorry, I confused truth social with another website called gab.

In any case they are simply mastodon forks, are they not? I can't see why it would require massive funding. I don't think the failure of truth social speaks to the failure of "splinter" forums at large.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by scarface74 on Saturday September 17, 2022 @11:43PM (#32884217)
Conservatives love the free market. Truth Social is showing the free market voting with its dollars
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by catiopatio on Saturday September 17, 2022 @10:28PM (#32883833)
What does that have to do with my question — or anything else I’ve said?

What word should we use to describe the viewpoint-based prohibition of someone’s speech?

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by scarface74 on Saturday September 17, 2022 @11:42PM (#32884214)
A private company gets to decide its own policy? If the government wants a platform where everyone can say whatever it wants it’s free to create a government funded platform.

Alternatively, conservatives are all about the free market. Let them create a platform where their views can be heard.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by catiopatio on Sunday September 18, 2022 @12:05AM (#32884323)
Why should we grant private companies the novel privilege of being shielded from liability for what they publish, if they're not willing to guarantee public access to their platform in return?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by scarface74 on Sunday September 18, 2022 @12:47AM (#32884512)
A private company has never been required to guarantee access to anyone as long as they don’t discriminate because of a “protected status”. Political speech is not a protected status. Does Christian mingle have to allow Muslims? Is RedState - that has banned me twice for not towing the line - forced to allow me to voice my viewpoint? Is the NRA forced to publish discussion about gun control?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by catiopatio on Sunday September 18, 2022 @01:01AM (#32884563)
That’s a completely incorrect assertion.

Common carriers are private companies required to guarantee non-discriminatory access to the public.

They do this in exchange for a shield from liability for what the public says/does/transfers via their service.

The legal framework for this dates back to English common law, and applies to telephone companies, airlines, freight carriers, taxi companies, and just about any other company that provides public services under the privilege of a government-granted shield from liability.

The only companies of this type that this doesn’t apply to are ”interactive computer service” providers, because they were granted a special privilege cut out in the Communication Decency Act of 1996, while we asked for nothing in return [1].

That’s the issue, here.

If the NRA wants to launch an “interactive computer service” that publishes user content, then yes, I think they should be forced to either accept liability for what they publish, or accept they they must serve the public without viewpoint discrimination.

If RedState wants to host a comment section, then I think the same rule should apply to them, too.

ISPs, too. This is the fundamental concept on which all arguments for net neutrality rest.

[1] Not entirely true; the liability shield of the Communications Decency Act was intended to counterbalance the criminalization of user transmission of “obscene or indecent” material on the internet.

The indecency clauses were struck down by the courts, leaving the privileges and none of the responsibilities.

The whole law was a broken, idiotic idea and should have been scrapped entirely.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by vel0city on Sunday September 18, 2022 @02:09AM (#32884878)
Your problem is, Facebook and Twitter are 100% an "interactive computer service", through and through. They're not common carriers in the slightest.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by catiopatio on Sunday September 18, 2022 @03:01AM (#32885158)
Yes, I know. I literally just articulated, in the comment you're replying to:

(1) That the invented classification was a mistake, and should be rectified, and

(2) How that invented classification — and the privileges it granted — was made in trade for something we never received (and never should have asked for): criminalization of “obscene or indecent” material on the internet.

I'm not sure whose arguments you believe you're rebutting, but they're not mine.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by scarface74 on Sunday September 18, 2022 @05:38AM (#32885956)
So now you want a law that if you host any type of comment section on the internet that the government can force you to allow any type of comments? You really don’t have a problem with the government taking your rights away?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by ineptech on Sunday September 18, 2022 @04:59PM (#32891455)
I think the usual term for being asked to leave a place due to your behavior is "eighty-sixed".
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by xani_ on Saturday September 17, 2022 @08:30PM (#32883106)
It does when the block is for everyone, not just the people who asked to not see it.

Giving people option to filter out what they don't want to see is fine; but the moment when (aside from reporting illegal stuff) you block content for user B because user A asked, it quickly becomes picking a side and censoring the other side.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by rocqua on Saturday September 17, 2022 @05:50PM (#32881941)
I have argued similarly, based on comparisons with editorial decisions of newspapers in the days of yore. You could pick which opinions were amplified or shunned by picking your newspaper. On Twitter, you are stuck with the decisions made by Twitter. Saying 'just start Twitter competitors' would lose us the universal platform of Twitter and create more walled gardens.

Instead, let people pick their moderators / editorialization.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by fluidcruft on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:02PM (#32883315)
I thought the sites need to not have editorial control so that they are not responsible for user's content.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by ekianjo on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:47PM (#32883569)
This kind of thing wouls never be a problem in the first place if social network stopped shoving in your face content from people you dont follow.

The are de facto acting as publishers because of that.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by hedora on Saturday September 17, 2022 @10:32PM (#32883859)
If only we had centuries of established case law regarding publishers and liability...
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by tcgv on Saturday September 17, 2022 @04:23PM (#32881224)
This is a great answer, and I think it would be relatively straightforward to create filters for potential bot/spammer accounts that used this strategy (ex: high comment frequency, using similar text patterns and engaging mostly in an unidirectional way) and make it available for users to enable it.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by mindcandy on Sunday September 18, 2022 @03:28AM (#32885312)
Don’t think about this in the abstract. You have to make it concrete.

Go make a service. Like a photo-sharing service. A service like that should obviously feature user comments, right?

And, then users start posting millions of blatant racist, misogynistic, pedophilic and false shock propaganda comments. But, if you decide you don’t want to personally spend your own money propagating this repulsive material using your own servers, large men with guns and dogs will drag you into a cage.

That’s what these laws mean. Don’t sugar-coat them.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by coffeeblack on Sunday September 18, 2022 @03:30AM (#32885321)
No they don’t.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by programmarchy on Saturday September 17, 2022 @02:08PM (#32879758)
Yeah this makes the most sense. There’s probably enough local compute power to run these filters on the client. But that’s a huge power shift and the change is likely more political than technological.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by lanstin on Saturday September 17, 2022 @05:29PM (#32881772)
Doubtful. With the rise of natural language spam, you have to analyze it in terms of networks or social graphs of bots reinforcing each other. E.g. a lot of bots will comment positively on other bots spam posts, in a manner very similar to my agreeing with some human. It is data bounded, not compute bounded. Will Twitter be forced to open their full internal conversation graph, including using real IPs probably for accurate targeting, to companies writing spam modules? It seems weirdly implausible.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by hedora on Saturday September 17, 2022 @10:58PM (#32884014)
Yelp's not recommended reviews are a great example of why this is data bounded (assuming Yelp's filter is halfway decent).
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by BlueTemplar on Sunday September 18, 2022 @12:52PM (#32889093)
It "should", yet somehow "use protocols not platforms, platforms are evil" is not a particularly popular point of view...
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by uni_rule on Sunday September 18, 2022 @01:50AM (#32884781)
So client side moderation like Usenet?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by hailwren on Saturday September 17, 2022 @01:53PM (#32879610)
In Reamde, Neal Stephenson posits a future where we pay individuals/services to filter and prioritize the unordered deluge of data from the web.

It seems like this ruling pushes us along that path.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by drexlspivey on Saturday September 17, 2022 @05:12PM (#32881622)
Welcome to microdata refinement
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by tbcj on Saturday September 17, 2022 @08:22PM (#32883048)
Can’t wait for my melon bar and the music dance experience.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by cpeterso on Saturday September 17, 2022 @03:33PM (#32880686)
If "social media" services aren't allow filter posts, could Twitter spin off the "social media" service to a new, wholly owned subsidiary company and retain twitter.com as a web client free to filter the service's posts?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by inhumantsar on Saturday September 17, 2022 @11:03PM (#32884034)
That's actually in Fall, the sequel to Reamde but yeah
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by hailwren on Sunday September 18, 2022 @11:35AM (#32888397)
Ha, whoops -- this is a very HN moment (and I'm glad for it).
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by hedora on Saturday September 17, 2022 @11:01PM (#32884026)
I don't see any other possible solution, thanks to what GPT-3 and Stable Diffusion will turn into next year.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by ekianjo on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:50PM (#32883590)
You mean like youtube making it premium not to see ads?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by caeril on Sunday September 18, 2022 @02:12PM (#32889882)
Not the same. I pay for YouTube premium but the algorithm continues to push:

1. Political content that is not only unaligned, but diametrically opposed to political content I've previously consumed. 2. Random "Free" movie and youtube original content suggestions (effectively ads, on a supposedly ad-free account).

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by hailwren on Sunday September 18, 2022 @11:36AM (#32888408)
It's more like the web is a model and you pay someone to curate a personal view of it for you. Instead of going to different news/social websites, it is filtered by someone and streamed directly to you.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by lossolo on Saturday September 17, 2022 @06:39PM (#32882297)
The problem here is accountability, with traditional solutions you can't have accountability and anonymity, anonymity encourages bad behaviour but also encourages sharing your thoughts without censoring yourself, maybe in future you will be only allowed to post when your account is registered using your special ID that every citizen will get from government saying "this is a real person" but you will not know who it is, and then appealing blocked account will be regulated by special law for social networks with more than x million users. This will limit bot usage to minimum, free speech problem would be partially solved because now you can be identified the same way as you would on the street IF you break the law but if you are not breaking any law then social network employees or other participants in the social network will not know who you are or know what's your name if you don't want them to. Maybe something like that would work?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by wumpus on Saturday September 17, 2022 @02:37PM (#32880055)
Congrats, you're reinventing this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdar_Argic
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by chaps on Saturday September 17, 2022 @08:07PM (#32882950)
One thing you can do, though it would take a lot of energy, is to add a "submit" button to your bot that you would have to click in order to tweet each tweet. That way it would be you who tweets it, though a bot did the hard work.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by tolmasky on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:06PM (#32883344)
Then, as an optimization, you change the text to “submit 100 times”, and now it’s you that posted 100 of those tweets. Also, a little timer field where you tell it how long to wait until it tweets it. Perfect.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by esperent on Saturday September 17, 2022 @11:05PM (#32884047)
I've heard of a good idea to prevent this (besides captchas), which is that if a user/bot needs to be rate limited, the service starts to require a small proof of work task to be done, something that would take a typical device a few seconds.

If you have a genuine need to post something, waiting 5 seconds is not a big problem. But if your goal is to spam 1000 of something, now you need to wait 5 seconds between each post, and the task can be made progressively harder so that by item 1000 it's a 5 hour calculation rather than 5 seconds.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by hedora on Saturday September 17, 2022 @10:59PM (#32884018)
Or, buy a video game controller / mouse with a turbo button.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by taf2 on Saturday September 17, 2022 @05:40PM (#32881867)
This does not sound to me like an issue of free speech more of one of you abusing an online service. Use of a bot maybe is against the services tos. So it’s not the content of your message rather the method you abused to spread it?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by visarga on Sunday September 18, 2022 @06:59AM (#32886430)
> Twitter can't ban them though.

People should be able to opt into a variety of filters, some even provided by third parties, to clean their feed according to their views. That won't cause an issue with the senders as the receivers are entitled to filter what they read. People can have control but Twitter can't dictate.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by teawrecks on Saturday September 17, 2022 @01:32PM (#32879392)
Once they figure it out they'll write a special case against using bots, but troll farms will be alive and well. At which point the site will switch to more stringent sign up requirements, as another post said.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by StanislavPetrov on Saturday September 17, 2022 @05:46PM (#32881911)
This ruling appears to apply to the content of speech. There's nothing that says you couldn't rate limit replies to prevent spam. Limiting posts to 1 per 30 seconds, or linking the number of replies you are allowed per day to your rate of organic interactions with other people would be a way to effectively eliminate these sort of bots without censoring based on content.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by bboygravity on Saturday September 17, 2022 @06:44PM (#32882341)
You're literally describing Twitter here.

Source: search for "Peñabots". There are great detailed documentaries about how far this went. That's one example, but this is ongoing for every major (geo)political topic and big businesses / hedge funds and the media "news" companies they own.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by guywithahat on Saturday September 17, 2022 @05:19PM (#32881682)
I was assuming your question would be answered in the article but I guess they really didn't go into much detail. The short answer is no; the law is much more narrow than that, more about banning politicians to influence elections and bots are excluded.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by cronix on Saturday September 17, 2022 @08:08PM (#32882964)
I assume so, from reading this (posted in a deeper reply)

Sec. 120.002. APPLICABILITY OF CHAPTER. (a) This chapter applies only to a user who: (3) shares or receives content on a social media platform in this state.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by calculatte on Saturday September 17, 2022 @02:05PM (#32879735)
That's basically what Twitter is right now, with the exception that their moderators ban those they don't agree with. So you get millions of sockpuppets saying the same thing. What a great way to manufacture consent.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by dustedcodes on Saturday September 17, 2022 @02:47PM (#32880173)
This was exactly my thought when I read the OP's message.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by quickthrower2 on Saturday September 17, 2022 @07:51PM (#32882832)
> Texas law that bars large social media companies from banning or censoring users based on "viewpoint,"

But this doesn’t mention barring banning accounts because they break ToS about bot usage.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by 2OEH8eoCRo0 on Saturday September 17, 2022 @10:37PM (#32883893)
You are under the assumption that Twitter or other platforms will not innovate or attempt to adapt to the new legal landscape they find themselves in.

Give users intuitive filters? Give users the ability to create invite-only communities? Etc.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by imgabe on Saturday September 17, 2022 @08:10PM (#32882977)
To use a bot you need to register an API key for it. Twitter or such could simply revoke the API access. The user is still free to post manually and their free speech is not impinged.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by hedora on Saturday September 17, 2022 @11:07PM (#32884052)
You could just screen scrape and submit that way.

Twitter noticing and blocking your user account doesn't get them off the hook, according to the definition of user in the law.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by imgabe on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @02:19AM (#32908314)
Doesn't it? Pretty sure the Terms of Service would say something about not accessing the service in an automated fashion, except through the official API. They would be banning you then based on a ToS violation, not because of any viewpoint.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by BlueTemplar on Sunday September 18, 2022 @12:52PM (#32889096)
Remember how Twitter heavily restricted its API in 2014, with a lot of collateral damage for startups depending on it ?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by TEP_Kim_Il_Sung on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:44PM (#32883550)
The solution is an individual's freedom of association. Something more intuitive than the block function or setting account to private, would be nice though.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by catiopatio on Saturday September 17, 2022 @06:28PM (#32882226)
They're free to ban bots. That would clearly be a viewpoint-neutral restriction on content/behavior. "Using a bot" isn't a viewpoint, and banning bots is not a viewpoint-based restriction on user expression.

This is a very well-explored area of law, and nobody is confused about the definitions of the terms used here. Even the government has reasonable authority to restrict speech based on time, place, or manner (e.g. by disallowing amplified sound systems).

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by mojzu on Sunday September 18, 2022 @07:12AM (#32886516)
Isn't having access to Twitter similar to the use of a sound amplification system? Being removed from Twitter does not remove your ability to speak, move to another smaller platform or setup your own platform, it just reduces your potential audience/reduces your volume. While I'm not a fan of the concentration of power in a few big companies, this outcome is in alignment with current definitions of free speech (private entities get to choose who can use their property)
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by towaway15463 on Sunday September 18, 2022 @07:14AM (#32886525)
Your scenario makes no sense. The law isn’t a magic shield you can apply to any thing by just mentioning politics. Your bots could still be banned for abusing the platform or sharing links to malicious sites. The law just means that Twitter can’t ban you specifically for political opinions.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by naillo on Sunday September 18, 2022 @07:24AM (#32886578)
This is already happening basically and twitter aren't banning anyway. (Try mentioning any drug or being 'hacked' or needing an 'essay' written, you'll get a flood of replies in a few minutes.)
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by hsn915 on Saturday September 17, 2022 @07:09PM (#32882537)
You are conflating two things:

1) The right to publish content that is not in line with mainstream politics

2) The right to spam replies against tweets of people you don't follow (directly or indirectly) for the purpsoe of marketing

These two things are largely orthogonal.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by hedora on Saturday September 17, 2022 @11:08PM (#32884060)
Great. Point to the line of the law that makes this distinction.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by nathias on Sunday September 18, 2022 @04:28AM (#32885595)
free speech is no censorship because of the content of your speech, if you're spamming that isn't really a free speech issue
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by ekianjo on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:45PM (#32883554)
you can easily prevent that kind of oversized influence by throttling bots, either by volume or frequency of messaging.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by ikiris on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:57PM (#32883625)
This fails even basic scrutiny. They can diversify the feed sources by volume.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by rychco on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:23PM (#32883452)
This is quite literally already happening
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by eternityforest on Saturday September 17, 2022 @04:43PM (#32881392)
Can't they just ban all mass-botting? That doesn't have anything to do with speech, it's just banning what amounts to spambots.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by judge2020 on Saturday September 17, 2022 @04:54PM (#32881481)
What law makes spambotting illegal?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by mperham on Saturday September 17, 2022 @05:12PM (#32881623)
Doesn’t have to be a law, can be terms of service, as it’s not individual speech.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by hot_gril on Sunday September 18, 2022 @11:45PM (#32894065)
> Will this apply to bots?

Most likely it'll apply in whatever cases Texas's govt wants. That is, the vague law will be basis for selective enforcement, like GDPR. There's no other way this can work.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by nmilo on Saturday September 17, 2022 @02:10PM (#32879776)
I would actually like this. Imagine if online discussion was so visibly bad that no one used it anymore.

Talk to real people. Go outside.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by smt88 on Saturday September 17, 2022 @02:36PM (#32880046)
YouTube comments used to be that bad. People still read them.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by 14 on Saturday September 17, 2022 @02:59PM (#32880309)
Well you kind of need to ever since the dislike count was removed.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by themitigating on Saturday September 17, 2022 @04:24PM (#32881233)
You checked the dislike count before reading the comment? That's almost a superpower of visual focus since they are next to each other

Edit -Didn't realize he meant video counts

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by ipaddr on Saturday September 17, 2022 @05:14PM (#32881638)
Parent is referencing seeing the total dislike summary that appeared before the comment section where you are talking about dislikes on each comment.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by nyuszika7h on Saturday September 17, 2022 @03:31PM (#32880659)
Some people have social anxiety.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by wussboy on Saturday September 17, 2022 @08:15PM (#32883001)
They have social anxiety because they never went outside. “Outside” and “with other people” are our ancestral environment. Social media is abnormal and makes abnormal people.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by revscat on Saturday September 17, 2022 @10:59PM (#32884017)
I have social anxiety because of a lifetime of psychological and physical abuse from everyone I have ever considered “family”, with only two exceptions. It has nothing to do with “outside”, and your idiotic hot take discounts the lives and experiences of thousands who have been through similar situations and worse.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by wussboy on Sunday September 18, 2022 @12:51AM (#32884531)
It discounts no such thing. Your unfortunate experience (for which I truly feel sympathy) has nothing to do with how evolution or socio-biology work or the significance of our ancestral environments or the statistically significant fact that even you, with your unique and very real burdens, if you went outside and met with other people would probably feel less anxiety.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by jquery on Sunday September 18, 2022 @06:58AM (#32886423)
You appear to be making normative statements based on your own experience. Not everyone benefits from exposure therapy.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by wussboy on Sunday September 18, 2022 @10:04AM (#32887658)
I said “statistically significant” to make it clear that “not everyone”.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by stubish on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:16PM (#32883411)
"with other people" means family group. Society changed radically once the Industrial Revolution hit and people started living in environments where they didn't know well everyone around them.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by wussboy on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:22PM (#32883449)
In a non automobile culture you absolutely did know the people around you, Industrial Age or not. And if you think the people around you being family would somehow make it easier, I think you need a little more family. :)
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by TobyTheDog123 on Saturday September 17, 2022 @02:45PM (#32880147)
> Users cannot have their speech limited on these platforms

"Will this also apply to [completely unrelated issue]? Bet they didn't think of that."

What?

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by Nursie on Sunday September 18, 2022 @04:11AM (#32885501)
You’re being downvotes, but that is basically a classic tech-guy retort to most things that affect any sort of service they like.

“I can draw a vague parallel with this other thing, so clearly it’s basically like the nazis and/or stalin”

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by barber5 on Saturday September 17, 2022 @03:49PM (#32880863)
Users should protect themselves from this. With the expectation that they will, there will be tons of tools available and this scenario will be a nonstarter.

Decentralized defenses against bots will be far more effective than the central planning of information ecosystems we have today. Just watch.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by kelnos on Saturday September 17, 2022 @03:55PM (#32880936)
Do you really think the average non-technical user will have a clue as to what to do about this hypothetical problem? I don't think that's a credible take.

Consider that this situation isn't like email spam filtering. I can't run a spam filter on the Twitter app on my phone. And if Twitter is not allowed to filter spam, that's it: no spam filtering for Twitter users.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by idle_zealot on Saturday September 17, 2022 @04:07PM (#32881084)
> I can't run a spam filter on the Twitter app on my phone

That's nothing fundamentally preventing this. It's Twitter themselves who've decided not to allow you to do this. Were their app more open to extension you would be able to download and configure a spam filter of your choosing.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by joshuamorton on Saturday September 17, 2022 @05:23PM (#32881713)
Are they allowed to provide a default filter?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by coredog64 on Saturday September 17, 2022 @05:56PM (#32882001)
This is it exactly: Apply the same rules that they have today for content moderation, but allow users to opt in to that filtering. Even if they apply it by default, that’s probably enough of an fig lead to get by this ruling.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by idle_zealot on Saturday September 17, 2022 @08:26PM (#32883084)
They can provide a first-party/recommended filter, but like with default browsers, search engines, or other preferences, the app should present the user with the choice in clear terms rather than silently applying the default. Defaults are powerful, so having the app apply its default first-party filter and hide away the option to change it in some menu would be approximately equivalent to changing nothing but forcing Twitter to act as a datastore/api for competing microblogging platforms.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by Firmwarrior on Saturday September 17, 2022 @04:08PM (#32881096)
You'll be able to go to a different platform that does allow decentralized spam filtering then
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by tjs8rj on Saturday September 17, 2022 @02:36PM (#32880037)
It’s really not this complicated at all, and arguments like this just come across like reaching for a rebuttal.

What these people want is very simple: a clear standard uniformly applied and not done so in a partisan fashion. Everyone is onboard with preventing the scenario you brought up: it’s not killing free speech, it’s stopping egregious spam. This is completely orthogonal to that.

This is about not getting banned for disagreeing with one side’s political ideology. We’ve managed to do that before - even just a decade ago, and manage to do it now on other platforms, all without ridiculous hypotheticals like this one every occurring.

One your last paragraph: yes, you’re 100% exaggerating. This scenario is as reasonable as saying “legal self defense is dangerous because just think of all the bad actors that will murder and call it self defense!”. It’s just nonsense and goes against all evidence.