News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by CJefferson on Saturday September 17, 2022 @02:10PM (#32879785)
Having run a mail server, I don't think it's reasonable to expect most people to contain the deluge of spam and phishing attacks they would get if just told them to "sort it out" themselves.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by concinds on Saturday September 17, 2022 @05:55PM (#32881987)
A better comparison would be if Gmail placed emails you really want to receive in the spam for you. Actually, they wouldn't even put it in the spam folder; they'd just delete it permanently before you can read it, "for your safety".

With email, if you don't want to receive someone's emails anymore, you unsubscribe. Or put it in spam (equivalent to social media block) and you won't see those emails anymore.

"Platforms" claim that because they're platforms, they have a duty to "remove toxic elements from the platform". That doesn't work when they're practically monopolies for online speech, i.e. when if you get banned by one and you're famous enough, you get banned by all of them.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by zrail on Saturday September 17, 2022 @06:42PM (#32882326)
> A better comparison would be if Gmail placed emails you really want to receive in the spam for you. Actually, they wouldn't even put it in the spam folder; they'd just delete it permanently before you can read it

Gmail regularly does both of these things to me despite explicit filter rules to the contrary.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by ekianjo on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:48PM (#32883573)
And is that desirable?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by zrail on Sunday September 18, 2022 @10:16AM (#32887748)
No of course not.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by MandieD on Saturday September 17, 2022 @07:16PM (#32882586)
GMail does this with my absentee ballots if I don't get lucky and see them go to Spam instead, because the State of Texas gives counties that really don't care about citizens who live overseas a system for generating ballots that is so slapdash that emails are from a domain that doesn't have DKIM or SPF, and the link to click is HTTP and not even an FQDN, but an IP address.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by quantumwannabe on Saturday September 17, 2022 @11:02PM (#32884033)
Why should you have the right to vote in a place where you don't live?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by MandieD on Sunday September 18, 2022 @02:49AM (#32885085)
Because US citizens have the right to vote in federal elections, no matter where they live, and which set of federal officials (senators and US House district, and state electoral votes for President) you are voting for is chosen by your last US residence before moving, or if you’ve never lived in the US (like my child might), by where one of your US citizen parents last lived. It’s then up to that state whether you can also vote in state and local elections.

If you are a US citizen, even if you’ve never lived in the US (born to a US citizen parent), get on over to https://fvap.gov to get yourself registered and request your absentee ballot. Hurry up, because the deadline for most states is rather soon, and a lot of them still require the registration to happen via paper mail - plus, you need time for the ballot to get to you and for you to mail it back.

As long as the US is going to insist I report all my German income and accounts that I’ve already paid Germany’s well-collected taxes on, you’re darn right I should have the right to vote!

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by toastal on Saturday September 17, 2022 @11:17PM (#32884098)
Because you're a citizen and you pay taxes.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by kaibee on Sunday September 18, 2022 @01:30AM (#32884681)
It is possible to live somewhere for 9 months every year and yet those 3 months you're not there could be when voting happens.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by coffeeblack on Saturday September 17, 2022 @02:24PM (#32879920)
You misunderstood. Don’t require users to build their bubbles, but have providers offer bubbles for a user to choose from. You could even have external bubble providers that offer different technologies and qualities of filters.

Just don’t have one centralised overlord.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by fshbbdssbbgdd on Saturday September 17, 2022 @02:58PM (#32880301)
> providers offer bubbles for a user to choose from

How is this different from the current internet?

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by infogulch on Saturday September 17, 2022 @03:33PM (#32880683)
The platform is tied to the bubble. GP is proposing decoupling them, so the user can choose the platform and choose the bubble separately.

> Tying (informally, product tying) is the practice of selling one product or service as a mandatory addition to the purchase of a different product or service. In legal terms, a tying sale makes the sale of one good (the tying good) to the de facto customer (or de jure customer) conditional on the purchase of a second distinctive good (the tied good). Tying is often illegal when the products are not naturally related.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tying_(commerce)

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by fshbbdssbbgdd on Saturday September 17, 2022 @03:47PM (#32880847)
The bubble must by necessity have some sort of interface associated with it in order to get the content to the user. There’s a generic platform (HTTP, browser/mobile APIs) and then the “bubble service” implements against those to reach the user. Seems like a completely natural form of tying to me. Are you proposing we force another layer of middlemen to be added in between there?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by infogulch on Saturday September 17, 2022 @04:05PM (#32881053)
I think there's a reasonable argument to be made that the problems surrounding platforms regarding their control of censorship & free speech would be largely resolved if that aspect were decoupled. You may also think that the tying that bell and the railroads did with their respective infrastructure is 'natural', but that was made illegal and those platforms were forced to break up, so I don't think its appropriate to dismiss this issue offhand.

I'm not interested in hashing out a complete argument and coming to a vacuous conclusion with some other random on an internet forum, I'm just saying that there seems to be a reasonable argument to be had in this direction.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by evrydayhustling on Saturday September 17, 2022 @08:36PM (#32883146)
Who decides which is the platform and which is the bubble? Seems like Twitter wants to define moderation policies (probably because they think that getting people to value Twitter means placing an some rules on the conversation). Who gets to say that they are a platform forced to carry all bubbles?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by monetus on Saturday September 17, 2022 @03:45PM (#32880823)
Is the implication that you would have a Netflix/Hulu/Disney dynamic of... Social media subscriptions?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by nmstoker on Saturday September 17, 2022 @06:56PM (#32882434)
This seems like it could be substantially better than current systems.

It could be effectively a crowdsource / peer recommended model where you opt in to aspects of the bubbles. So my elderly parents could get some of the safety guidance mirroring mine (eg weeding out conspiracy thought or spam) but then also picking up aspects that mirror older peers (eg reflecting their more traditional tastes)

Right now there's a remarkable amount of undesirable content that gets through that ought to be easy to filter. On Twitter you see it a load with searches for regular terms that show up inappropriate content for the term, yet you don't want to set content filtering or it cuts things that are genuinely interesting but edgy!

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by greesil on Saturday September 17, 2022 @02:36PM (#32880041)
we have a centralized overlord?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by eitland on Saturday September 17, 2022 @03:42PM (#32880783)
Several:

- Google (including GMail)

- Twitter

- Meta (Facebook, Instagram)

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by greesil on Saturday September 17, 2022 @05:49PM (#32881935)
And discussion outside of these platforms is impossible?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by sfifs on Saturday September 17, 2022 @06:22PM (#32882188)
Not impossible. Insignificant in volume.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by cguess on Saturday September 17, 2022 @06:43PM (#32882339)
He said on a platform that's controlled by any of those organizations.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by drewrv on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:47PM (#32883566)
The number of people here who claim to hate moderation blows my mind.

If someone thinks far right content is reasonable and good it would be refreshing to hear that take.

Instead people bend themselves into logical pretzels to oppose the idea of moderation for supposedly “content neutral” reasons. It’s tiresome.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by Karunamon on Saturday September 17, 2022 @11:08PM (#32884058)
It would be equally refreshing to see "moderation" advocates acknowledge that it's not just the "far right" being bullied and censored off of mainstream platforms.

That straw man incinerated and replaced with "mainstream conservative content", you still are not going to get any examples because the one providing that will be voted/flagged into invisibility, or if not that, the resulting discussion will be derailed into quibbling about the specific example rather than the much more important general principle.

It would be not at all honest to imply that this forum is anything but generally hostile to the American right, regardless of how extreme or not the take is. With that in mind, it is no surprise that specific positions are only ever mentioned indirectly, or negatively.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by cycomanic on Saturday September 17, 2022 @11:22PM (#32884128)
Yes no proponent of this law ever complained about ISIS recruiting accounts being banned by twitter.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by Karunamon on Saturday September 17, 2022 @11:44PM (#32884222)
It is definitely federally illegal on the grounds of sanctions [1], if not treason, to knowingly provide service to the Islamic State. Twitter's hands are tied.

[1]: https://sanctionssearch.ofac.treas.gov/Details.aspx?id=8759

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by cycomanic on Sunday September 18, 2022 @12:30AM (#32884438)
So I guess government restricting free speech is fine?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by sfifs on Sunday September 18, 2022 @08:47AM (#32887086)
If you are in a democratic country, your society has explicitly granted your government authority through your voting systems to be the ultimate arbiter and parts of it can and does get revoked as the will of the society changes.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by indecisive_user on Sunday September 18, 2022 @01:08AM (#32884592)
Whataboutism. Government passing laws on free speech is unrelated to internet platforms enforcing arbitrary rules depending on the outrage mob of the week.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by cycomanic on Sunday September 18, 2022 @12:33AM (#32884456)
Also I am not certain that publishing tweets is a violation of sanctions?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by concordDance on Sunday September 18, 2022 @06:37AM (#32886287)
Personally I complained about that to anyone who'd listen.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by concordDance on Sunday September 18, 2022 @06:39AM (#32886306)
I, for one, would like to hear far right takes just in case they're reasonable and good. I don't want to have to argue that any particular one is good without even being able to see them.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by treeman79 on Saturday September 17, 2022 @11:10PM (#32884068)
Should boys be allowed into a girls locker room. Ignoring feelings of the girls. That is now considered a far right questions.

Should a million or two people be allowed to enter the country with no rules or oversight. Again, far right.

Should parents have a say in child’s education. Far right question.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by greesil on Saturday September 17, 2022 @11:38PM (#32884196)
And then I found the strawmen three, but not the original ones we were looking for.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by Dylan16807 on Sunday September 18, 2022 @12:58PM (#32889150)
The context where those count as "far right" is when someone is lying about the actual issue.

Those three actual opinions are completely uncontroversial. But people pretend other issues are those issues so they can be the common-sense instant victor.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by etchalon on Sunday September 18, 2022 @01:32AM (#32884689)
Ah yes, because it's the questions and not the answers that have ideological implications.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by drewrv on Sunday September 18, 2022 @02:38AM (#32885031)
These takes are all over social media so if they’re supposed to be banned then the real crime is how bad social media giants are at tracking down this nonsense.

What mostly gets banned at big social media sites is spam and bots. The political speech that does get banned is overwhelmingly violent.

The right gets banned more because there is no liberal equivalent of the Christchurch shooter, the Buffalo shooter, the El Paso shooter, the Charleston shooter, the Tree of Life shooter.

The last president got kicked from Twitter because he tried to violently overthrow our government.

Kiwifarms was finally taken down by cloudflare only because of immediate threats of violence.

The right wing in the US has a violence problem. Culture war junk and social media moderation policies pale in comparison to this problem.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by tjpnz on Sunday September 18, 2022 @03:58AM (#32885451)
I'm not sure why you're trying to link Kiwi Farms to the far right. I wouldn't consider myself a fan of the site, but from what I've seen it's very much apolitical and political views from either side are generally frowned upon.

>Kiwifarms was finally taken down by cloudflare only because of immediate threats of violence.

A single threat of violence originating from a long dormant account which had posted once, in 2018. It was reported multiple times and removed by Kiwi Farms moderators within 30 minutes. It wouldn't be unreasonable to conclude that there might've been shenanigans at play. Possibly by the same actors behind the DDoS campaign.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by treeman79 on Monday September 19, 2022 @12:55PM (#32900852)
Your just repeating liberal lies.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by revscat on Saturday September 17, 2022 @10:54PM (#32883985)
Echoing the sibling to this, this is not a viewpoint I have seen expressed before. Do you have a link?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by greesil on Saturday September 17, 2022 @11:35PM (#32884180)
A link to their own opinions? Huh?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by cdash on Sunday September 18, 2022 @01:14AM (#32884606)
It is both reasonable and good.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by drewrv on Sunday September 18, 2022 @02:01AM (#32884841)
It would be refreshing to hear this take for once :)
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by greesil on Saturday September 17, 2022 @11:34PM (#32884172)
But not tiresome enough you keep engaging with the pretzly people :)
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by drewrv on Sunday September 18, 2022 @02:01AM (#32884839)
I yearn for the day we can defeat bad faith losers and get back to discussing what really matters: tabs vs spaces.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by kortilla on Saturday September 17, 2022 @10:34PM (#32883870)
“I’m flabbergasted these strawmen I’m attacking exist!”
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by greesil on Saturday September 17, 2022 @11:36PM (#32884185)
Do you have a link to these strawmen?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by cowtools on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:06PM (#32883341)
It's controlled by Ycombinator, who uses the forum to showcase their own interests.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by senorrib on Saturday September 17, 2022 @07:38PM (#32882738)
They certainly did not.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by evrydayhustling on Saturday September 17, 2022 @08:38PM (#32883152)
So free speech = free access to a high volume of people?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by infotogivenm on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:03PM (#32883323)
“I’ve been sending the Times a list of headlines to publish every week, and so far they’ve all been censored your honor!”
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by cowtools on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:07PM (#32883351)
Email and other Internet infrastructure is more analogous to the phone company than news publishing, because you do not need to "peer" with other newspapers to get published.

Imagine if Bell was touchy about letting "undesirables" use their service.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by infotogivenm on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:11PM (#32883379)
Oh I 100% agree, if this argument were about the ISPs, which control access to the infrastructure via local monopolies.

It’s not. It’s about individual private publishers, of which there are potentially infinite. That is the beauty of the internet.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by cowtools on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:30PM (#32883488)
The internet infrastructure is completely controlled via local monopolies and bureaucracies, and this extends beyond ISPs. The entire DNS and PKI system for example is simply a racketeering scheme for registrars and CAs. In general the internet (from the hardware to application-level) is structured in such a way that is weak to sybil attacks, and this requires central (usually corporate) entities to discriminate on traffic.

EMail is one such example: there is no meaningful way to filter spam, so the peering relationships between mail providers break down unless they each implement some sybil-proofing on their own side. The end product is that everyone is forced to use a provider like Google, and play a corporate-political game to stay in good favor with their peers. This is because there is no spam-resistance on Email application level

We've seen a similar situation this week with a controversial forum called KiwiFarm taken down by DDoS. They need to maintain a political relationship with their DDoS-protection provider, CloudFlare, who also controls a massive chunk of the internet infrastructure. This is all so that there can be a central entity that discriminates on the traffic, as there's no spam resistance features on IP level.

https://secushare.org/broken-internet

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by cowtools on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:05PM (#32883332)
You can set up your own mail provider, but if GMail blocks messages sent from your new provider, it will never overcome network effects needed for success.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by scarface74 on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:04PM (#32883328)
You mean like Truth Social?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by ekianjo on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:49PM (#32883581)
Ask Parler
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by cmoscoso on Saturday September 17, 2022 @06:15PM (#32882141)
Yes.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by ItsMonkk on Sunday September 18, 2022 @12:16AM (#32884377)
uBlock Filters, but for email.

uBlock Filters, but for Twitter.

uBlock Filters, but for ...

Just let us choose which ones we can activate, and if we want to see the unfiltered list we'll turn it off and refresh.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by hiram112 on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:41PM (#32883537)
I can already imagine how these totally neutral "providers" like Google and Twitter would implement this, much like Microsoft abuses their OS monopoly to ensure 90% of non-tech-savvy users will eventually be using Edge.

Sign up for Twitter. Immediately you're greeted with a list of "suggested filters" that will pop up again and again, using dark patterns eventually, until you either give in or are tricked into adding Twitter's highly recommended "safe filter plus package" that uses the exact same shadow bans and biased algorithms used by default today.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by dane-pgp on Sunday September 18, 2022 @03:58AM (#32885453)
Good, and then we'll get the government to start banning dark patterns.

Actually, I suspect that such a law would be on even shakier First Amendment grounds, but here's a test that might bring this regulation into the realms of competition law rather than regulating speech:

Whenever a (sufficiently large) platform makes a UI change about which the FTC receive multiple negative comments, that platform is required to run a poll of (some random subset of) its users, with a wording specified by the FTC, asking the users if they like the change or they find it manipulative.

If most users think that the change is negative, then that's a de facto / prima facie case of the platform abusing its monopoly power to the detriment of its users, since if there were a free market then those users would simply move to a competing platform.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by ericbarrett on Saturday September 17, 2022 @09:26PM (#32883466)
If this case law holds, would it be extended to filter providers?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by adventured on Saturday September 17, 2022 @02:16PM (#32879832)
There's a very simple solution that works very well with social media for that.

You don't receive the OP's messages unless you are friends him them, or change your default settings to allow strangers to message you.

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by hedora on Saturday September 17, 2022 @10:31PM (#32883851)
Or, like linkedin: Charge a small amount to send messages to non-friends.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by hedora on Saturday September 17, 2022 @10:30PM (#32883842)
Thunderbird used to have a local spam filter. It was fine.

As for phishing attacks: Education is helpful. It would help if organizations with legitimate flows that are indistinguishable from phishing attacks were made liable. (Mortgage industry: I'm looking at you.)

Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by BlueTemplar on Sunday September 18, 2022 @08:02AM (#32886816)
It still does ?
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by hedora on Sunday September 18, 2022 @12:43PM (#32889002)
I haven't used their spam filter for over a decade. (Fast mail's spam filter is good enough.)
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by caeril on Sunday September 18, 2022 @02:06PM (#32889815)
Fair point, but if all accounts were given a standard default policy modeled around current moderation rules, and users were permitted to edit the policy from that initial point, this would be an effective solution.
Re:U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate o... by ajvs on Saturday September 17, 2022 @02:22PM (#32879900)
Or following the mail example, adopt a spam control mechanism that doesn't require coding it yourself.