Absolutely, piracy forums have guides to fake being a student to get an unlimited account, then mirror huge (1TB+) gdrives full of pirated content to your own. This was (is?) happening on a huge scale.
My kid's circles of friends consider email to be like snail mail/phone calls- nothing but spam.
I warned them about g-products for years while they were growing up, but I needn't have worried- they see g/fb/insta/snap et al for the garbage it is.
Most of them use telegram or whatsap for communication.
Kids im speaking of are 15/17 (both girls). My youngest(boy) at 12 is more worried about football.
They use plex or whatever for sharing. They schooled me hard.
I'm just glad it's the lesser of the available evils. I definitely have friends with kids in the same age range (and family members of the same age) who use insta-makeup IRL and have phones out taking pics all the time.
Still email is something considered necessary to sign up for stuff, not something they closely associate with their identity, or something they'd be scared to lose.
I was hearing on the radio the other day the average person will use something like 140+ email addresses in their lifetime. Found the article they were discussing here[1]
Between jobs, schools, throwaways and over many years this seems feasible.
[1] https://studyfinds.org/digital-footprint-social-media/#:~:te....
There was an interesting Twitter thread not too long ago about Gen Z using TikTok instead of Google Search or YouTube for looking up how to do things. Recipes, fashion, products to buy, etc.
For a long time they dealt with the free accounts, so in a way they have already a lot of protections in place, and if they wanted they could keep the existing free accounts and just not accept further signups for this account type.
everyone handrolls prevention measures, i once proposed an industry council where we swap tips, but everyone views it as competitive advantage for some reason so it didnt go anywhere.
They may or may not fully utilize the bandwidth, but they will absolutely take advantage of access to resources that don't require real identification, and that adds an extra burden of regulatory compliance on the company offering it (even if it is just hiring a few extra people to manage takedown orders, etc).
[Edit: someone found an article from later in 2017 where it seems like Cloudflare resumed hosting Stormfront just over a month after it had stopped hosting it.]
> Starting October 26, 2022, we will begin deleting inactive accounts and associated storage for accounts that have been inactive for over a year. Starting November 28, 2022, we plan to stop offering free product plans and plan to start shutting down free dynos and data services. We will be sending out a series of email communications to affected users.
In case anybody was wondering in the article where it says free is going away.
Heroku was a product for its time. These days, I see most students use replit.com (in India, at least), including as part of course curricula at universities (paid plans). I'd say replit has since replaced heroku as the getting started tool of choice.
As for heroku, there are many NewCloud companies waiting to pounce: fly.io, deno.com, vercel.com, netifly.com, railway.app, workers.dev some of the popular ones here, while there's also resurgence in packaged / DIY PaaS FOSS alternatives like supabase.com, encore.dev, temporal.io et al.
At Coherence (withcoherence.com) we are looking to go beyond the NewCloud companies you mention here (which are all awesome), to provide the same kind of integrated experience with Cloud IDE, CI, and Deployment all in one configuration, but running in your own cloud account using managed services. (Disclosure // cofounder)
> We appreciate Heroku’s legacy as a learning platform. Many students have their first experience with deploying an application into the wild on Heroku.
I'm one of those students. It's good that they will open up something free for students but I suspect it'll never be the same as just signing up and git push heroku master.
Self study folks, anyone without a bootcamp connected to a sales team, non traditional schools ... you're out.
I remember changing careers and studying and a lot of sites promised free stuff but if you weren't connected to whomever they worked with / a traditional school you were kinda SOL unless you wanted to go begging on twitter or something like that.
Granted I get they don't want to just be handing out mass quantities of free stuff too / I'm sure people abuse that to no end.
Disagree. Traditionally you pay for education through property taxes or tuition or whatever. A determined person in this field can cough up $20 a month for a very capable server.
When I was young and poor 40 years ago, to teach myself programming I spent all my money on books that cost $35 a pop at least, which would be something like $100 in today’s money.
You might be interested in Railway's CLI deployments: `railway up` from your project root gets ya going.
Heroku VMs had the kitchen sink, and I miss that with Railway. A pretty standard Phoenix app with Phoenix’s built-in auth doesn’t build and the user is presented with build errors about nixpacks. Now there’s a good deal I have to learn just to get bcrypt to build.
Serious free tier, git push, serverless express.js plus AWS databases.
* As simple as `git push` to build & deploy services
* One-click addons for Postgres, Mongo, Redis, MySQL and more
* A generous free tier to get developers on board with minimal friction
* Great out of the box observability
* The option to set up pipelines for more complex build/preview/release workflows
This please, a thousand times! We're in the midst of a complex transition from Heroku, where we relied heavily on Review Apps for getting stakeholder feedback and QA'ing complex data model changes, to a k8s-on-EKS setup where we have a Helm chart that can duplicate our normal deploy in isolated namespaces for previewing new feature branches based on Github Actions.
Our data cloning and routing needs are rather custom (white labels on top of feature branch releases, with complex fixture-loading processes), so I don't know that we'd make a great initial customer, but there are so many companies out there that should be using preview apps aggressively and don't know what they're missing. If you can make this happen in a modern environment without people needing to know what Argo and Flux are, or how to make a "for" loop in Helm, it could be a significant differentiator - and also provide a lower barrier to entry where prospective customers use you first for low-impact preview environments, then start using you for production as well.
We currently have several customers using our API + Typescript client to provision preview environments. Create temporary databases, spawn container builds, spawn job to import dump, run migrations, deploy x micro-services, run QA and finally spin down.
The perfect situation is where the preview environments are roughly aligned with staging and production workflows. So you don't need to maintain two different systems.
Our first iteration of GitOps and template driven IaC is releasing soon. I would love to discuss your situation and how we can improve our offering. email: will at northflank.com.
(Northflank co-founder)
> You can have one free project on your user account, and the resources you create within it will be limited. You will not be billed for any usage within a free project, but you must add a card to your account for verification first.
not having to add credit card info before using the free tier is one of the main reasons for Heroku being so popular with students and toy projects, truly a friction-free experience.
You die the heroku, or live long enough to become the villainku.
I've been a paying member of heroku for nearly a decade, and pay them $1000s of my personal income monthly. I think their product has been brilliant. I just defended them yesterday in a HN comment.
I do, however, use their free tier to test things daily. This news puts me in a bind. It's work that I hadn't planned, and I only have 3 months to find a solution for it when I have my own roadmap already planned.
I got the joke, and many jokes are written, and ancient. Without context, even.
Having said that, this is HN. Infer from that what you will :)
This was amazing back in the day. I'm much more impressed either digitalocean's App stuff. It just hooks right up to github, autoconfigures, and my devops workflow is reduced to `git push`
Heroku was early in the integration to GitHub. It was surprising to see how many apps were "broken" and "unable to deploy" with the security incident a bit ago because they did know how to git push they'd only connected their apps to GitHub.
Given that many (most?) bootcamps are for-profit, it stands to reason that they should be able to pay for a basic level of Heroku services that their students can use, no?
> Gonna pour one out tonight for Heroku.
You're acting like they're dead, but that seems quite a bit premature.
Let's remember that the purpose of a free tier isn't just to give free stuff away. It's a marketing expense. The hope is that you get people to use the platform without the huge amount of friction involved in pulling out a credit card, and hope that they not only stay, but require more services that push them out of the free tier. You also hope that these free users will tell their friends and colleagues, who might also become paid users.
I'd guess that many bootcamp users would just use Heroku for their class projects, and after the bootcamp was over, never use it again. Their projects would just sit there, deployed on Heroku, active, without being used. Sure, some would end up using Heroku at whatever job they end up at; but, critically, most of them will be going into an org where it's already in use, so the free tier would not have acted as a customer acquisition tool in that case. And sure, some much fewer number would continue using Heroku in a capacity where they wouldn't otherwise do so. And finally, sure, some even much fewer number would both continue to use it, and start paying for it.
I'm sure Heroku's new-customer funnel will suffer somewhat without a free tier. But presumably they believe it's better for them not to have all that fraud and garbage on their platform. And they've been around long enough that they don't really need to work on increasing mindshare all that much.
I used to mentor at a not for profit bootcamp. We had students use Heroku because it was free and they could keep their applications running after the boot camp ended and continue to make updates, use it as a demo, part of their CV etc...
As a non profit we certainly didn't have money to spare. What little funding we had was spent on marketing/public awareness, fees for outside teachers, and space.
People bet on Heroku for easy deployments are getting hosed.
And those are your best two reference users??
It seems to me like there’d be a big market for an identical feature by feature Heroku “clone” with a more dedicated (from the outside looking in) team. No more features, no less, just exactly what Heroku did but without the intent to shut down. What’s preventing that from existing?
Even now if you emulate that it's one thing, but Heroku has been frozen in time for at least the last 5 years, maybe closer to 7-8 years. There was more to do and more to improve and advance, and it stalled out for reasons. Now just being a clone wouldn't be enough you need to continue advancing the experience.
What I am challenging is the idea that the last 8 years of missed advancement are a requirement. I’m sure there’s necessary under the good improvements; I question if there’s necessary user facing ones. Lots of people (me at least) are very happy with Heroku’s exact current feature set, minus the recent and future stability issues. We just want that to exist forever.
Another start-up I've been playing with is Railway, who offers 5-10$ of free usage per month, certainly enough to play with react/nextjs app and a postgres db to your hobbyists hearts content (as long as you turn if off when you're done).
If I were to host a bootcamp on starting a web app from scratch I'd do something like stand-up a T3 App https://github.com/t3-oss/create-t3-app on Vercel Hobby https://www.vercel.com . Not sure I'd even consider Heroku for teaching anymore.
Vercel does not do, what Heroku does, besides a CDN, they do serverless functions. Correct me, if i'm wrong.
I didn't know that, thanks.
Docker/docker-compose has much of the "easy to ship" magic that Heroku had for me in its early years, I very quickly abandoned Heroku for my own container stacks not long after Docker launched in 2013. Its not quite as friendly or easy as Heroku was at its best, but its a completely open format and works with so many different providers etc etc.
When you can just get a database in a container with one line in docker or a handful of lines of yaml in a compose file, the magic of heroku deploying a production database instance easily isn't quite as special as it once was.
That Dokku, the open source Heroku alternative, is at heart a Docker container manager suggests I wasn't the only person with these thoughts.
The problem with straight Docker is you're left to deal with iptables and everything else on your own. Even the self-hosted PaaS offerings don't do a whole lot for you here, either. You're still on your own to configure backups, automatic package updates, system reboots, monitoring (?), and other system admin tasks.
It's borderline on whether Docker is worth it at that scale. You could just as easily setup a git hook to redeploy on push. Maybe use SQLite instead of Postgres. Configure nginx + Let's Encrypt. Without Docker you get sane iptables again, which is a benefit. And systemd can replace most functionality of docker-compose. Plus cron tasks are kinda awkward with Docker, which you'll probably need to do at some point.
I'm not sure.
One guess is that heroku actually started with quite a bit less than we now see -- for instance, initially only supported Rails. The bar was so much lower then, since there had been nothing else like it, that they had enough runway to start with much less than would be "table stakes" today and build up to it.
Also they just had a really really really good team, and really good management that let the team go.
And luck maybe?
Not sure what their funding was, if they had funding runway that's hard to get today for a similar product?
But honestly I don't know. There are several competitors trying. None of them have in my opinion yet reached heroku in DX. And it's hard to talk about because it's not just an issue of listing significant features; it's also a million tiny things that are just right and work together just right.
I think it's _something_ about them being the "first mover", and building out initially when there was pretty much nothing like it, and when expectations were lower.
I personally think now there is great demand of complexity from all levels of tech hierarchy. see this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32439601
Now, you need to deploy Dokku so I get how the two are dissimilar, but I wonder what it would look like for a company to try to offer managed dokku instances (perhaps this is already a thing?).
And how is that any more modern than heroku?
I just never worried about this with Heroku. I already use the paid tier there for some projects, but the writing seems to be on the wall, so I’m sampling the alternatives. Render is probably where I end up though.
For myself, I just run automated security updates (uptime is not a pinnacle concern for me), do the basic fail2ban set-up, ensure I have a bit of reporting. Most importantly, I pray to Cthulhu I'm enough of a low-priority target that all I need to fend off is drive-by attacks.
I try as much as possible to isolate e.g. credentials and sensitive information from public infrastructure. Everything else that is more sensitive I stick behind tailscale, usually hosted at home on Pis or my NAS.
Does anyone have a recommendation how to re-create the Heroku experience on AWS or Azure?
Besides the perf/security boost you aren't locked in to anything. You could take the same application and deploy it to multiple clouds simultaneously if you wanted to as it is making use of cloud primitives - nothing cloud-specific unlike some of the various serverless offerings.
It’s not a 1:1 experience, but I’ve enjoyed it as an alternative to Heroku for sure. Alternatively, you could spin up a server and install dokku which is pretty close to a shipping experience, but still requires some maintenance and hand holding.
I tried to get too fancy and set two web services on the same app (since the DO droplet was giving me more CPU and 4x the RAM for half the price) but they seemed to battle each other for control of the database and/or were exceeding resources. So I chilled out and used 1 web service and set CPU and RAM resource limits. And... it's been smooth since then! Much faster than heroku, too.
Price-wise: we were on the $50/mo dyno plus $9/mo postgresql, and with DO we beefed up the managed database specs, and now get 4x the RAM on the droplet, and the total cost is the same as heroku.
We do still have a free tier staging server on heroku that we only use a couple times a year.
Oh shoot, I just remembered that I use staticman for processing comments on a couple jekyll blogs, and those use free heroku tiers. Argh!
This was exactly what we tried to avoid with our (rather small) dev team.
It took our infra swe a few months to get MVP version working but he also did other infra related work at the same time. Complexity can change a lot depending on requirements, and ours are probably more stringent that Heroku ever supported. Because of sensitivity of the data we deal with there is now a relatively sophisticated identity management/permissioning/what-can-see-what-data component in how our infra is deployed which probably would not be the case for most companies. We also deploy ML models so there is additional issues with automation around keeping track of reproducability/provenance/ml pipeline regression/drift/deidentification/etc (which now a year later we haven't fully solved either!).
Maybe I'm over skeptical here, but I don't see this being an easy thing for a bootcamp study to acquire or deal with.
Plus the students would have an incentive to learn about shutting down unused resources that would pay dividends if they ever deploy to AWS. It'd be like a home economic lesson for hosted services.
$7/mo and access to a payment method might be a stopper for someone in the third world. But it's a private company, not a charity. Somebody else can solve that problem for the truly deserving.
I think it's incredible they've provided free services for over a decade and would love to know what percent of their free compute resource have simply be hijacked by crypto miners, torrent downloaders, and VPNs. It's got to be enormous and the simple requirement of a payment card would add enough KYC to eliminate all of them.
$0 -> $16
Some would say bootcamps exploited a free service and a nice-to-have became an expectation
Also having taught a bootcamp, I think costs to Heroku for bootcamp students would be basically negligible. Their apps tend to only be accessed by them and maybe 1-2 others, and only are really actively used for a few months.
Heroku are training wheels that never come off. I see an overall benefit to dev community, while painful initially, it will be a net-good for people to learn how to deploy an app on a bare metal server.
It is still one of the gold standards for developer experience. Years after its heyday companies and tools talk about and try to emulate that experience. I recall polling on twitter a few months back which the key feature was:
- git push heroku master
- Heroku add-ons
- Heroku Postgres
- Review apps
And the reality is any one of those could standard on their own. But put together, Heroku simply lets you forget about ops and focus on shipping, and shipping is king.
I fully get it's a business, but can't help but feel this is the writing on the wall for the future.
Gonna pour one out tonight for Heroku.
Edit: And may be trying to figure out how to offer free Postgres databases, cause shutting down databases with 3 months notice feels pretty short. Not sure if that means deleting the data itself or what, but ouch.