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Re:Apps Getting Worse by sushisource on Sunday August 08, 2021 @05:57PM (#28110494)
I hope people will use Spotify as a case study in how to fuck up a UI over time. The service itself is fine, I quite like some of the music it finds for me on discover, but the UI is on a slow death march towards complete uselessness, and some features have always been hopelessly broken (queuing).

From a business standpoint I find it fascinating. It's about as perfect as an example it gets of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Music player UI is a solved problem. At some point they should've just said "welp, don't need a UI team any more" and just never touched it again, but that would mean people admitting they don't really serve much purpose. About as pure an example of a "bullshit job" as is possible.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by godelski on Sunday August 08, 2021 @06:29PM (#28110741)
I hope there's some UI/UX designers that can explain this to me. It often appears that design changes are changed just to change. Doing things like changing the clock from right to left (Android). Moving a bar that's existed to another location (Spotify). Removing color hints (Signal). And so many other things. Things that basically your users have been trained to look at and then need to be retrained. Removing hintings that people have been relied on.

So, the big question is: why? Good design is hard and often underappreciated. I don't want to convey that idea. But why do things like this happen so often? Changes that don't actually provide any more utility. Changes that remove utility. It is just so common that there has to be some reason for it. Often backend people say that it is just done to justify their existence but I don't buy this because there are plenty of good design features that can be constantly worked on and improved. Is there some psychological effect this has on users because it is once again novel? So often we don't see good design improvements but things that just come off as "change because change." Why? Help me understand.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by g_p on Sunday August 08, 2021 @07:11PM (#28111063)
I do wonder if to some extent the inherently subjective nature of UX/UI design is what keeps it forever going? Designers want to stay employed and not just become a "bring in one-time at the start" contractor, so they justify changes through continual enhancement or similar, assuming the current solution may be one of a few local optima rather than the global optimum.

Lacking objective numerical comparison, perhaps designers and product teams attempt to do metrics-based comparison from telemetry (we raised metric X by changing the design). That leads to an ever changing design that tries to optimise for business objectives, rather than what the user wants.

Backend code can be optimised and honed and improved with objective measurements (CPU cycles used, latency, perceived performance, download time for user), but design doesn't give these.

In saying that though, rewrites in new languages and frameworks do seem to be becoming the problem for backend - optimisation isn't seem as exciting or career advancing, I guess... Few are optimising code for performance these days though, I'd wager - everyone just assumes your user won't mind your software using 15% of their CPU when sitting idle.

Maybe it is just as simple as that metrics individuals are measured on for job performance?

Re:Apps Getting Worse by torgian on Sunday August 08, 2021 @09:40PM (#28111882)
Well, take a look at fashion design. Objectively, there are a lot of really crazy designs that no one would wear in the real world. But designs for clothing always keeps changing, even if they are small, subtle changes.

I think you can apply the same towards design of anything. Tastes change. While a certain design philosophy might be a godsend in 2010, it might be considered trash in 2015.

To be fair, I also think a lot of design decisions are poorly made, and a lot of businesses make poor user experiences.

Just like female jeans that have tiny pockets.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by jareklupinski on Monday August 09, 2021 @01:15PM (#28119504)
I like the idea of doubling-down on UX patterns as a 'fashion' that we all have to adapt to each occasion and season.

We'd quickly branch into 'busines formal' UX patterns that change infrequently, only splashing a company color in places but largely uniform, all the way through to 'haute couture' UX patterns like the recent 'brutalist' trend, trusting they only appear on trendier sites and dropshipping fronts.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by scns on Monday August 09, 2021 @05:20AM (#28114303)
> Objectively, there are a lot of really crazy designs that no one would wear in the real world.

Objectivity is an ideal we can strive towards. And several crazy and expensive designs are worn in the real world. I have seen it with my own eyes. The people who are able to afford those clothes either:

- Have bad taste (A subjective judgement which is logically wrong, since it is absolute)

- Really like that look

- Don't care what anyone thinks of them

- Want to display their high status

- Want to stand out from the crowd

Re:Apps Getting Worse by rhizome on Monday August 09, 2021 @07:44PM (#28123690)
Humans are never objective. Ever. Not only that, this inherent and fundamental subjectivity means they could never know what objectivity looks like in order to judge whether something is indeed objective. Because their criteria are subjective.

It's not an ideal, it's a legend.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by scns on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @04:47PM (#28147521)
Yes, Kant named it: "Das Ding an sich" ie "The thing, in itself". We can never perceive it in its totality, since our senses always deceive us, thus: objectivity is impossible.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by TuringNYC on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:39AM (#28113357)
>> Tastes change.

They do, but do they change as quickly as every season?...or sometimes people do those who make money off changing tastes tell you that tastes change that often?

Re:Apps Getting Worse by atkailash on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:35AM (#28113331)
Haute couture runway isn’t intended to be worn. It generally shows a concept of the general theme for the season as well as ability. It’s not the same as UI/UX whose entire purpose is to be used, that’s more like the prêt-a-porter lines for fashion (which are also on runways)

Female jean pockets being small is entirely a driver for handbags and the like. It’s a poor decision for practicality but entirely a business decision — it’s sorta a dark design pattern I guess similar to how amazon buries privacy settings

Re:Apps Getting Worse by willhinsa on Sunday August 08, 2021 @08:22PM (#28111478)
There are objective measurements that can be done, but they’re difficult/expensive to do effectively.

Like, “How many interactions/seconds does it take our users to find X?”

It’s difficult because you have to know what “X” a user was looking for, which requires some varying degree of asking lots of users and reading those responses to be accurate.

Measuring “engagement” is far easier to orchestrate practically and organizationally, even though it produces awful software.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by godelski on Sunday August 08, 2021 @08:46PM (#28111604)
> Measuring “engagement” is far easier to orchestrate practically and organizationally, even though it produces awful software.

Engagement is such a terrible metric. I'm not saying it should be thrown out, but it is classic example of Goodhart's Law[0]. Rage is engagement. Too much reliance on engagement is what got social media into a race to the bottom. That's not the mark of a quality product.

Measuring is hard, you're right. But if you're going to use bad measurements (which often is our only choice) they shouldn't be targets. We should understand where they fail and use the information accounting for that, not ignoring it.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law

Re:Apps Getting Worse by lobocinza on Monday August 09, 2021 @12:21PM (#28118786)
Not everything can be quantified but things should be at least qualitatively validated by the user base. Sometimes the problems are well know by anyone reading the app reviews and still aren't properly fixed.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by scns on Monday August 09, 2021 @05:10AM (#28114203)
> metrics-based comparison from telemetry (we raised metric X by changing the design)

Sounds like a conclusion drawn from a correlation to me.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by smichel17 on Sunday August 08, 2021 @08:35PM (#28111558)
Here's a short case study.

I am the maintainer of Red Moon, a FLOSS screen filter app for Android. Over a period of several years, the location of the toggle has moved from a switch at the top, to a switch and a floating action button (FAB), back to just a switch, and will soon move to just a FAB.

I can provide more detail later if someone would like, but the short of it is:

1) As other features changed (permission prompts and moving the growing number of settings to their own screen), one location or the other made more sense.

2) I thought I would like the single top switch better than a single FAB, but after using it for a while, I think the switch feels more confusing than fresh (the action bar is a nonstandard location for a switch).

Overall, I would say it's because design is really hard. But not like that! It's hard because when you spend so much time close to a system, you start to overthink things, and then second-guess yourself. So you can't trust your intuition, you need to listen to users with fresh eyes. But they're also telling you 5 different, conflicting things, and if you listen to everyone you'll have a settings section 9 miles long. You can try to rely on data, but that's mostly good for reaching a local maximum, not staying cohesive. The best designers are able to keep their "fresh eyes" even after working with the system for a long time.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by godelski on Sunday August 08, 2021 @08:42PM (#28111588)
> I thought I would like the single top switch better than a single FAB, but after using it for a while, I think the switch feels more confusing than fresh (the action bar is a nonstandard location for a switch).

This seems to be addressed by one of my complaints. Was this feature not tested before pushed out to users?

I get that design is difficult. Anyone saying otherwise is biased. But it seems like a big problem is just trying something out first. Design can take months of use to realize something is bad. It seems like what should be done is: create new UI; use internally and push to everyone's version, use for a few weeks to a month; push to beta and get user feedback and pay attention to web traffic like HN and Reddit complaints about the new design; then decide if it should be pushed or not. I've seen apps that seem to follow this but just push despite bad user feedback and bad internal feedback. Going through the motions isn't enough, it has to be used as iterations.

> So you can't trust your intuition, you need to listen to users with fresh eyes. But they're also telling you 5 different, conflicting things, and if you listen to everyone you'll have a settings section 9 miles long.

A good piece of advice I heard was "listen to users for problems. Don't listen to users for solutions." Because people are actually really good at identifying problems. But most people are really terrible at solving problems (I mean if they were good at it we wouldn't have 90% of the problems we do). The addendum is to only take solution advice from experts that understand more of the nuance of what you're doing, but then to still be careful.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by bosie on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:53AM (#28113710)
The problem with your approach though is that there is no such thing as 'a user'. There are so many different cohorts of users. In your testing workflow it seems you are only using hardcore users for it. People obsessed with your software (internal or beta users) before pushing it out to the masses.

How do you avoid leaving the other cohorts behind?

Re:Apps Getting Worse by godelski on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:10PM (#28120166)
> How do you avoid leaving the other cohorts behind?

Time, larger testing sizes, A/B testing in the main product, and not rushing things out.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by sflicht on Sunday August 08, 2021 @08:54PM (#28111647)
What is wrong with having a lot of settings? I absolutely hate that Twitter does not let me turn off their "features", but rather only lets me say "see less often" (which of course does nothing because I told Twitter not to track my preferences etc, but probably doesn't do anything for anyone anyway, except maybe provide a datapoint for some poorly thought out ML algorithm they put in place).
Re:Apps Getting Worse by smichel17 on Sunday August 08, 2021 @10:07PM (#28112022)
I was using OSMAnd the other day. Wanted to change a setting that I knew exists, since I looked through them all at one point (don't remember which one off hand, sorry). Spent 2 or 3 minutes looking for it before I ran out of time and gave up. Not the first time this has happened (second or third, I think).

On the developer side, too many interrelated settings can increase the complexity of the code, making it less maintainable.

My favorite compromise is to use settings for the most common functionality tweaks, and then add script hooks to allow extensive customization of behavior. The Android app Simpletask[1] does a great job of this, imo. (There are many places where it could use polish, but it nails the overall approach).

[1]: https://github.com/mpcjanssen/simpletask-android

Re:Apps Getting Worse by mark-r on Sunday August 08, 2021 @10:00PM (#28111982)
The more settings you have, the more settings you won't care about. It's easy to get settings fatigue. And every setting you introduce adds complexity to both the code and the testing.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by xorcist on Monday August 09, 2021 @04:18AM (#28113846)
Maybe this is a problem with a specific type of UI? Something like git feels like it has a million settings, yet they do not bother most people. When you need something, you can often search the manual and find out how to set it up.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by brnt on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:13AM (#28113511)
> The more settings you have, the more settings you won't care about.

Not me.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by godelski on Sunday August 08, 2021 @09:24PM (#28111806)
I like a lot of settings but I'm also okay with them being buried a bit. Advanced users tend to not care about going 5 layers deep to get what they want.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by CamperBob2 on Sunday August 08, 2021 @10:31PM (#28112173)
Exactly. They can be buried, and in many cases should be, but they still need to be there somewhere. Spotify seems to lose one or two useful features per calendar quarter. They're not hidden, but lost altogether.

If you really want your blood pressure pumped up, try the Spotify mobile app under CarPlay sometime. At this point, it lets you do basically nothing. A 1980s-era cassette deck gave you more control over the listening experience, just because its fast-forward and rewind buttons worked.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by dmitriid on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:49AM (#28113413)
For CarPly they are very limited in what they can allow you to do relatively safely.

So it's basically radio+cassette player

Re:Apps Getting Worse by CamperBob2 on Monday August 09, 2021 @05:32AM (#28114407)
I'm pretty sure they could implement the same transport controls that my cassette deck had in 1989. They could also enable additional features when the vehicle isn't moving, if they cared enough to do so.

What's not safe is providing an app that's so frustrating to use that it encourages the driver to touch and grope and scroll and drag all kinds of different things, looking for a commonplace UI affordance that, surely, has got to be there someplace, yet somehow isn't.

Or (worse) providing an app that frequently (but not always) fails to return to the same screen and playback state that was active when the engine was last shut off. That's the #1 unforgivable sin in any autosound system, and... yup... they somehow managed to pull it off.

It's as if the Spotify dev team is managed by B. F. Skinner himself, and they think we're all a bunch of lab rats.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by godelski on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:42PM (#28120595)
Honestly every car app I've used is just terrible. VLC locks out half your artists (it does unlock when you're stopped). Maps blocks limits the keyboard and forces you to use voice.

I'm frequently disconnecting my phone, doing what I want, and then reconnecting it. This defeats the entire purpose of car play other than that my GPS is displayed in a place that is visible to me. I'm sure the play engineers have thought long and hard about how to prevent certain behaviors. But I am not confident they watched people use them in the real world. People are very good at finding ways around limitations. It's impossible to think your way through this without actually observing people. I'm not so sure it is Skinner and lab rats but "we're smart and thought about everything." I'm sure you're smart, but no one can think of everything. Thinking that makes you not smart.

Worse, there's no passenger mode for these apps and most of them don't lift restrictions when you're stopped. The lack of these features adds to people not stopping and just doing more dangerous things.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by CamperBob2 on Monday August 09, 2021 @08:23PM (#28123935)
But I am not confident they watched people use them in the real world.

Oh, rest assured, they do. Time spent screwing around trying to get the app to do what you want is considered "engagement," and treated as a target for optimization.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by dmitriid on Monday August 09, 2021 @06:00AM (#28114645)
Yep, I'm frustrated by the same issues myself :)
Re:Apps Getting Worse by godelski on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:18PM (#28120278)
Honestly the controls are so limited that it makes me end up picking up my phone, disconnecting it, selecting the song I want, and then reconnecting it. This is a much more dangerous behavior.

The problems here are that it is SO limited that it is very difficult to accomplish a task. Beyond that, even a passenger can't navigate the app easily. You can't do anything when parked either. Even maps has this problem where it essentially forces you to use voice command but that doesn't work well so you say the same thing 5 times trying to get it right or do the above thing where you disconnect.

Car Play is one of those things where it seems like the developers thought long and hard about how to do things but didn't actually look at how people use the system in the real world.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by mark-r on Sunday August 08, 2021 @10:07PM (#28112021)
I've found that the best programs are the ones under the control of a single benevolent dictator. They can maintain their focus and consistency much better than any other structure.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by scns on Monday August 09, 2021 @05:28AM (#28114366)
I Concur. Even though i am still not a fan, since his psrsonality was really offputting to me, Steve Jobs way able to do that. And he even was able to put it into words: "Stay hungry". Complacency begets Mediocrity at best (or worse).
Re:Apps Getting Worse by jay_kyburz on Sunday August 08, 2021 @06:35PM (#28110801)
Fashion.

Also, in my industry, if you're software is not visibly changing, people assume its dead and no longer supported, not going anywhere.

People want to feel like they are part of something that is going somewhere. Software is not a tool, its a journey into the future!

Re:Apps Getting Worse by siproprio on Sunday August 08, 2021 @11:35PM (#28112507)
What's your industry?
Re:Apps Getting Worse by jay_kyburz on Sunday August 08, 2021 @11:53PM (#28112592)
I'm in Games.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by eloisant on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:55AM (#28113718)
Well software in your industry is definitely not a tool...
Re:Apps Getting Worse by fendy3002 on Sunday August 08, 2021 @06:50PM (#28110924)
Most of the time it's for inner achievements for the product manager or designers part.

Another is they just changing their ui/ux lead and they have different views.

It can also redesigned to match style updates, useful for fashion, travel or wedding sites.

Sometimes the menu increases that a list of buttons can't accommodate anymore so it's changed to it's own page or drop-down.

Sometimes they want people to be confused and ask the changes in more general forums, generating free publications.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by godelski on Sunday August 08, 2021 @07:20PM (#28111107)
Most of these sound pretty insane tbh (though some completely sane).

> Another is they just changing their ui/ux lead and they have different views.

This one specifically irritates me. Even under the assumption that that new lead is correct and the new interface is cleaner and more usable, it still needs to be weighed against the time it takes to retrain users to the new format. You have to deal with what you were given. You can't just burn Rome to the ground, rebuild it in a day, and expect everything to be fine. For the love of god, at least do testing to show that this the cost doesn't outweigh the benefits.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by danjac on Monday August 09, 2021 @01:11AM (#28112933)
It's not something that's confined to design/UX though.

Bring in a new CTO/tech lead and they'll tell you the current architecture is outdated or the code is spaghetti and needs a rewrite in [insert architecture/language doing the rounds on HN]. Bring in a new project manager and they'll want to introduce [insert Agile framework du jour]. Someone has been hired for presumably a lot of money, and if they just go "meh, it's fine, we just need to tidy things up a bit here and there" people might question why they were hired for a lot of money.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by stingraycharles on Monday August 09, 2021 @01:59AM (#28113154)
Of course, but the difference is that there’s a much higher impact for the users if the design keeps changing. Technical infrastructure is pretty much entirely hidden from the users.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by WJW on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @07:26AM (#28127460)
Sure, but it's not the users being fired if they "make no impact".
Re:Apps Getting Worse by WJW on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @07:25AM (#28127450)
The benefits for the new UI lead are that they don't lose their job due to "having no vision" or something like that. Human psychology is just super bad at recognizing when "no action" has saved the day so to make any progress in a corporate setting you need to have visible achievements.

Giving such downsides to not changing the UI, no cost is too high for a new UI lead.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by MrDresden on Monday August 09, 2021 @05:02AM (#28114127)
Having worked in the mobile space for the last decade, it is my experience that these UI/X changes usually are a side effect of new management (after a purge) or from way on high (the c-suite).

Neither one of these groups know much about UI/X but hold strong personal opinions which they automatically believe must hold true for all users.

I am currently in a tug of war over such UI/X change for a feature in a banking application, making the case that we have plenty of older users who will have massive issues with the current redesign.

My suggestions on performing user testing on the new design to validate them has not received much support over the last weeks.

And so, I have started looking around for other opportunities on the market (this is also why places with bad UI/X continue doing so, they select for the people who are ok with making it).

Re:Apps Getting Worse by krono on Monday August 09, 2021 @05:12AM (#28114222)
My pet theory is that Spotify doesn't want you to choose your own music but steer you towards specific songs instead. Either to increase your level or length of engagement with the service, or because some songs earn them more cash than others.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by MrDresden on Monday August 09, 2021 @06:27AM (#28114877)
I am 100% certain that they employ plenty of dark patterns in hopes of steering customer behaviour for Spotify's maximum financial benefit.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by benrbray on Monday August 09, 2021 @06:12AM (#28114738)
Hey me too. I'm pretty sure when you shuffle, it's not actually random, but weighted by some combination of licensing fees / paid promotion.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by Sander_Marechal on Monday August 09, 2021 @06:32AM (#28114908)
Ah, the Netflix model
Re:Apps Getting Worse by gampleman on Monday August 09, 2021 @07:56AM (#28115624)
I think this goes to the fact that the people designing, implementing and signing off on development are looking at the UIs constantly - close to 8 hours a day, every day.

This is usually (at least) an order of magnitude more than your users (well unless you're Facebook I guess). I think many people just get bored looking at the same old screen all the time; and so when a designer inevitably proposes something different everyone on the team thinks it looks great and so much better than the old design.

It's hard for them to realise that it's not better, but merely alleviates the boredom they feel.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by thevagrant on Monday August 09, 2021 @09:39AM (#28116645)
That or some designers are opinionated and more interested in making their mark on a design, compared with understanding and advocating for their userbase.

Honestly I've heard this line more from designers than any other field:

"We can't add that feature/button because it's too confusing"

Usually the above statement is conflicting with reality and the request to add the feature/button is to give the UI clarity (or worse, provide the feature the customer asked for!)

Re:Apps Getting Worse by HeavyStorm on Monday August 09, 2021 @08:11AM (#28115763)
That's actually a good explanation.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by jjav on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:39AM (#28113356)
> It is just so common that there has to be some reason for it.

One reason is that UI is a fashion-driven space so as the fashion changes there is increasing pressure to rewrite everything to look like all recent apps look, even if it breaks functionality.

Another reason is that if an application has a well-polished UI that all users love.. what's the UI team going to do? How does that newly hired UI PM get to make a big impact so they get a promotion? So there's also a lot of resume-driven UI change for the sake of change.

For the second problem, a partial solution is to have shared UI teams so they can keep busy improving the products which need the most improvement and leave alone the ones that are already good. Of course, hard to do in a smaller company that might only have one product.

For the fashion problem, no good solution. Ignoring fashion entirely works for software that targets technical people but for mass-market applications, no good solution.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by Causality1 on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:49PM (#28121533)
Purely the justification of their own job. Open up any settings window in Windows 10. The title bar and the window contents are the exact same color, making it impossible to tell where exactly you need to click to drag the window. In a sane world the programmer responsible for that would be out on their ass.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by Griffinsauce on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:42AM (#28113369)
There is one simple reason that enables all the shit mentioned in other replies: as much as we like to pretend, the impact of design is very hard to measure.

A product experience is nuanced, part of a journey, with learning curves, preferences and problems. Much of this is completely ignored in the measurement of the success of design changes.

There are lots of reasons people tend to screw with things that are fine, but the root cause is that they get away with it. Hell, they even get rewarded for it.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by franga2000 on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:00AM (#28113452)
This seems like a solved problem as well. Don't people use focus groups anymore? Or have an open feedback forum where people can submit feedback and use user ratings to see which issues are the most important to the most users.

Many companies already do have forums like this and they're filled with UI complaints having sometimes thousands of upvotes, but it's all for nothing because almost none of them actually use that feedback.

My bet is still on "UI design isn't a full-time job, it's project work, so UI designers have to keep moving things around to stay relevant in one company". As much as I don't like outsourcing, having a bunch of designers on your payroll with nothing to do most days but still needing to pass all the employee rating crap is bound to result in an unstable and never good enough UI.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by watwut on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:27AM (#28113579)
> This seems like a solved problem as well. Don't people use focus groups anymore?

No they generally dont. And generally, they never used focus groups, unless we are talking about something super big.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by Griffinsauce on Friday August 13, 2021 @04:30PM (#28174101)
Focus groups tell you about the effectiveness of design changes, not the impact on business metrics.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by mch82 on Monday August 09, 2021 @01:35AM (#28113050)
Product Management and/or Sales & Marketing are likely to own the decision.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by Casperin on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:28AM (#28113588)
In every company I have worked in on the frontend, this is the answer.

"We need to increase x" comes down from somewhere, and then everyone attempts to find a good way to measure increase/decrease of x and then come up with a design that increases x.

I have never been in a company where a UX or UI designer had leverage to redesign anything just for the hell of it.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by megablast on Monday August 09, 2021 @05:28AM (#28114365)
I mean, they are employees. If they aren’t working, they will get fired. There work is measured in updates to the apps. They have to keep changing.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by lupire on Monday August 09, 2021 @09:53AM (#28116831)
This is quite obviously the answer, and UI design isn't a skill like software where your boss can say "If you've finish your work, start a new project." We don't need more UI designs like we need more useful/efficient software.

Imagine If software engineers could get paid to constantly refactor the code and change APIs -- oh, wait, API devs do, for the same reason.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by ProZsolt on Monday August 09, 2021 @04:24PM (#28121906)
> Doing things like changing the clock from right to left (Android).

I'm not a designer, but I know this. They needed less stuff on the right, so the can have a notch in the center.

This made the UI worse for everybody else.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by mikelward on Sunday August 08, 2021 @06:32PM (#28110761)
I think the clock moved to balance out icons on either side of the big center notch.

Then next year they moved to a left-side holepunch notch, but didn't move it back. Or even offer the option. :(

Re:Apps Getting Worse by Sophistifunk on Monday August 09, 2021 @07:37PM (#28123635)
It's to steer you to cheaper (for them) content, I imagine, with enough randomness to make it sticky and obscure the real goal.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by city41 on Sunday August 08, 2021 @06:23PM (#28110700)
I canceled my Spotify subscription because it was so dang buggy. Getting it to play music for longer than an hour was simply impossible for a myriad of reasons.

I switched to Amazon Music and at the time the webapp looked pretty much just like mainstream Amazon: drab, white/orange/blue, simple. But dang, it was rock solid. I couldn't get it to error if I wanted to. I could leave the tab open for weeks and it'd play music on command without missing a beat. They have since redone the site to make it look more trendy and more Spotify-ish. This new skin brought bugs with it and it's not the reliable workhorse it used to be. It's still way better than Spotify though.

I am very sensitive to buggy software. And in my opinion, most software available today is just riddled with bugs. I completely switched away from Apple because of this for example. To me, this is the real tragedy of modern software. The bad UX, the dark patterns, the slowness, etc... None of this stuff bothers me all that much when it comes down to it. But bugs, bugs get me every time.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by strken on Sunday August 08, 2021 @08:30PM (#28111539)
There's a good unofficial Rust library for Spotify called librespot that powers some great terminal clients. I use ncspot and it's pretty good once you learn the weird quirks (e.g. song radio is buried deep in a context menu).
Re:Apps Getting Worse by RNCTX on Sunday August 08, 2021 @06:37PM (#28110815)
Subplot: I doubt they care. Since spotify is designed to lose money it has little reason to care if customers cancel, it's only going to be concerned if investors lose interest.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by city41 on Sunday August 08, 2021 @06:39PM (#28110838)
Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised. I think bugginess just doesn't affect bottom lines of most companies these days, hence the state we're in. Also, anecdotally, I find people are very tolerant of bugs and just suffer in silence a lot of the time.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by hutzlibu on Sunday August 08, 2021 @07:00PM (#28110989)
" I find people are very tolerant of bugs and just suffer in silence a lot of the time."

Most people probably blame themself of not getting it.

Or throw hands in the air of what to do about it.

And most don't know that you can make software that fits to the user needs and not the other way around.

OpenSource could have potential here, but most free software developers are not really into UX design either and seem to expect the same tech level of their audience as they have.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by cpeterso on Sunday August 08, 2021 @07:54PM (#28111309)
If your users don't have another option, or your product has serious network effects, users will keep coming back. From Fast Company 2016:

"To test its users’ loyalty, Facebook sometimes made its Android app crash for several hours over the course of several years. ... Users were so hooked that they “never stopped coming back,” despite the errors."

https://fastcompany.com/3055089 (2016)

Re:Apps Getting Worse by hutzlibu on Monday August 09, 2021 @05:04AM (#28114149)
It is always fascinating how little respect FB has for its users, yet they stay.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by anontrot on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:12PM (#28120185)
what else can the users do?
Re:Apps Getting Worse by lupire on Monday August 09, 2021 @09:57AM (#28116887)
Why did you write "yeah" and then contradict everything parent said about revenue impact?
Re:Apps Getting Worse by city41 on Monday August 09, 2021 @10:10AM (#28117044)
Are you equating "bottom line" with revenue? Is that why you feel this is a contradiction? Bottom line also has a more general definition of "the company's end goal". If the bugs don't impact Spotify's goals, then they are not motivated to fix them.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by oakfr on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:14AM (#28113239)
What do you mean by « Spotify is designed to lose money »? Also, a decrease in number of users will definitely worry Spotify and draw negative investors’ attention.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by snack-boye on Sunday August 08, 2021 @07:30PM (#28111171)
How do you even run a company like that? Sounds soulless af.

I mean, sure make money for your investors, but shouldn't you also try to fulfill your mission statement? Or is the mission statement only to make the share price go up?

So you just make it look good on financials?

Re:Apps Getting Worse by lucb1e on Sunday August 08, 2021 @08:14PM (#28111431)
This. There is no better alternative music service, but just yesterday I reinstalled Antennapod for podcasts. Spotify did a great job getting me hooked on some podcast shows, but the UI changed (need more taps and travel from the lowest to the highest button on my phone screen every time I want to use it) and features broke (e.g. it needs internet to list downloaded podcasts such that I can press play on one of them). After half a year of waiting for them to patch this worst of bugs I've given up and moved away. But yeah not everyone is going to remember using a different and open source podcast app years ago and can easily move back, most people will just stick with it. GDPR's automatic data transfer clause could really be put to better use.

For music I can't simply install an open source alternative. That I make a backup of the apk before hitting update says enough I think.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by vanilla_nut on Monday August 09, 2021 @01:04AM (#28112902)
Glad to hear you switched away from listening to podcasts on Spotify. Their attempt to buy up a huge number of podcasts in the last couple of years, which resulted in exclusification of some of those podcasts, is an awful development in the previously free and open podcasting community. I love podcasts and I'd prefer to be able to keep listening to all of my favorite podcasts on whatever app I want.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by lucb1e on Monday August 09, 2021 @07:20AM (#28115298)
Yes, that is one of the reasons I moved away.

But also before moving away, I was subscribed to one of the ones they made exclusive, Gimlet Media's something-science I think it was called. Enjoyable and fairly informative much of the time, but if they are going to create a gated community I'm just not going to be part of making that a success, so I immediately stopped listening & recommending it and unsubscribed.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by emodendroket on Sunday August 08, 2021 @08:17PM (#28111450)
There are quite a few alternative music services. Not sure what you mean by that.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by strictfp on Sunday August 08, 2021 @07:26PM (#28111148)
I'm familiar with how they operate and my opinion is that they screwed it up by hiring too many devs and setting up the teams based on software components.

Very hard to get anything meaningful done.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by hkt on Sunday August 08, 2021 @07:28PM (#28111160)
Conway's law in action.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by grishka on Sunday August 08, 2021 @06:15PM (#28110636)
My recently favorite question to ask people: why do you need a development team at a company whose product has already been developed, is feature-complete, and everyone's fine with it? A bank doesn't need a full-time development team for example.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by topkai22 on Sunday August 08, 2021 @06:25PM (#28110713)
“A bank doesn’t need a full time development team for example”

Banks and finance are like the number one employer of software developers outside of pure tech companies. I might be misunderstanding your point, but a bank doing digital banking needs a huge IT staff, including software devs. Even if no new products are being developed (unlikely), they support changes to common industry systems, redevelop systems for retiring hardware/operating systems, support integrations with changing business partners, changes to regulatory requirements, etc. I’m sure some devs pulled late nights trying to support the PPP program for example.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by grishka on Sunday August 08, 2021 @06:39PM (#28110840)
> Banks and finance are like the number one employer of software developers outside of pure tech companies.

Right now, with all the churn that only serves to update various financial numbers in databases and is generally useless for the society at large. As an end user, I view a bank as a box to keep my money so I don't have to deal with cash. That's really it. It already works for me as it is right now.

A rather popular bank in Russia is now trying its damnest to become a super-app. It's developing a voice assistant. Its mobile app has stories. A bank. Is developing a voice assistant and becoming an operating system. Where did we make the wrong turn?

And maybe, just maybe, regulatory change doesn't need to happen in the first place?

Re:Apps Getting Worse by TeMPOraL on Sunday August 08, 2021 @07:16PM (#28111089)
> Where did we make the wrong turn?

We force companies to grow, I guess.

All of the bullcrap the banks are doing mostly serves one purpose: get you to buy more of their products at terms that are bad for you.

All the complaints I have against the UX of the banking websites and apps I use can be attributed to this: they do a shitty job on purpose, because the site/app is primarily a vector to upsell you loans, credit cards and insurance.

(All complaints except one: the bank I used for my business accounts when contracting decided to make an SPA with one of the trendy JavaScript frameworks. Well, they botched it. This failure doesn't even help them sell anything, it's just the usual webdev incompetence.)

Re:Apps Getting Worse by lupire on Monday August 09, 2021 @10:00AM (#28116929)
Why would a shitty app promote more sales?

The only reason I use MegaBank and its obnoxious but functional app is that Local Credit Union can't afford to build a decently functional app.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by TeMPOraL on Monday August 09, 2021 @11:56AM (#28118463)
> Why would a shitty app promote more sales?

Because part of it being shitty is obnoxiously advertising you financial products, making it hard to perform the tasks you want with your money without being upsold something, and making it near-impossible to use your account without going through the app/webapp (or a visit to the bank, or the ATM - which is also pushing ads).

Re:Apps Getting Worse by antihero on Monday August 09, 2021 @06:55AM (#28115091)
Line. Must. Go. Up.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by blibble on Sunday August 08, 2021 @06:47PM (#28110908)
> As an end user, I view a bank as a box to keep my money so I don't have to deal with cash. That's really it.

I personally like features such as savings accounts (which require a treasury department), a brokerage, lending, mortgages, wire transfers, detection of fraud, and so-on

a bank does far more than provide a safe place for your cash to sit

Re:Apps Getting Worse by jagged-chisel on Sunday August 08, 2021 @07:00PM (#28110984)
I believe the point is that all those services have existed for Quite Some Time, don’t need consumer-facing changes, and any additional consumer-facing software changes are bunk.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by blibble on Sunday August 08, 2021 @07:05PM (#28111027)
the point was:

> A bank doesn't need a full-time development team for example.

all of the areas I mentioned are subject to constant change, mostly from regulators

implementing the Payment Services Directive, Solvency II or MiFID II all require developers

the developers working on the app/website that you interact with are always going to be a small fraction of the developers that work for a bank

and if you think this isn't the case (in a very cut-throat industry), I would suggest you start a bank and put the rest of them out of business with your vastly reduced costs

Re:Apps Getting Worse by grishka on Sunday August 08, 2021 @07:02PM (#28111005)
Yes. And they somehow existed even before computers were invented. Computers sure did help streamline the processes tho.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by actually_a_dog on Sunday August 08, 2021 @08:23PM (#28111488)
Computers allowed the development of ACH, debit cards, and ATMs. They gave us the ability to bank by phone, and by web. But, I think your general point, sans snark, is correct in that I can’t think of any significant, novel banking service that’s been introduced since about the 1970s. (I count ACH as novel, because it enables you to do things you couldn’t do before. Banking at home in your pajamas isn’t any different than waiting until Monday morning and physically going to the bank.)
Re:Apps Getting Worse by jagged-chisel on Sunday August 08, 2021 @07:03PM (#28111015)
Sure did. Did. As in already done. What else, aside from security fixes, needs to change software-wise?

Edit: I realize this can be read with a pile of snark that I didn’t intend. Apologies.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by TuringNYC on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:43AM (#28113377)
Modern payment support; Keeping up with regulatory changes; Keeping up with regulatory report of the year; Updating risk systems to account for modern mortgage risks; Expanding integrations to other countries; Keeping up with OS changes for existing apps; Responding on court data requests
Re:Apps Getting Worse by topkai22 on Monday August 09, 2021 @12:13AM (#28112690)
You’d think so, but my wife uses a bank that spent a good 12 years without a substantial change to their website. It finally got a major refresh a few years back and everything just FELT better. It was like fixing up the lobby- it might be secondary to the primary purpose of being there, but it made it a better experience for the customer.

That’s ignoring things like online bill pay, mobile banking, and roll outs of new financial products that really are innovations from the last 10-15 years.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by dcminter on Sunday August 08, 2021 @06:41PM (#28110855)
Regulatory change, 3rd party API changes, new financial products (often arising out of the regulatory changes) all require ongoing development.

Plus I don't know about you, but my bank's website and app are a hot mess. In theory I suppose they could be feature complete, but in reality, nope.

So, just visiting Earth, or are you here to stay? :)

I've worked for banks and while there's certainly plenty of unwarranted churn the notion that they're done and the dev team can go home is ... hilarious.

Edit: addressing your comment in an adjacent thread, a box to keep your money in (or, canonically, a sock under the mattress) does not need to offer/support:

- Debit cards

- Credit bureaus. Yes, even if it's just a deposit account and no, this isn't optional.

- Know Your Customer (KYC) regulations

- Anti Money Laundering (AML) checks

That's before you get into other account types, offering credit, currency conversions and the zillion other things that sock doesn't have to do.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by SilverRed on Sunday August 08, 2021 @08:16PM (#28111447)
Spotify has a lot to work on. Integrations with new devices is a big one. They recently added support for streaming songs directly on the Apple Watch but are still yet to support saving them locally to play offline if you don't have your phone. New required features like this are constantly popping up. As well as other infinitely big tasks like optimizing all of their server side software to support and ever increasing user base.

They could also work forever on making suggestions better. As well as new features like lossless audio coming up soon. Supporting new iOS and android versions/features. There is never a point where a piece of software is simply done because the OS changes how things work constantly.

The companies that just contract out for a tiny bit of work every few months end up with garbage software because no one really knows or understands the code so they just tack on bad patches until the system eventually crumbles. And every bank I have used does have a full time development team. The one I currently use sends out monthly emails for the new features they have released and has a road map showing what they are planning on adding.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by irskep on Sunday August 08, 2021 @10:44PM (#28112254)
To be fair to Spotify, Apple Watch development is pure hell, and I wouldn't expect them to ever implement that feature.

On the other hand, the LG TV app for Spotify doesn't support gapless playback, which completely blows my mind.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by SilverRed on Monday August 09, 2021 @12:02AM (#28112641)
>I wouldn't expect them to ever implement that feature.

Most users will though. Apple music implements that feature and charges the same amount for subscriptions. So if spotify wants to stay competitive they need a team of developers to keep up with whatever Apple and Google are doing. It's not good enough to just say "oh well the app is feature complete so we won't be working on anything new"

Nothing is ever feature complete when you have competition.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by eisa01 on Monday August 09, 2021 @01:32AM (#28113030)
I have finally got the option to test “Download to Apple Watch”, so only took Spotify 2-3 years after the feature was made available? Not sure if it’s widely available yet

Had to buy the 4G version last time though, as Apples podcast and Music app is horrible at downloading, and Overcast was not much better.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by WanderPanda on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:37AM (#28113340)
I surrendered and bought the app Outcast. With it you can directly download podcasts on the Apple Watch. You have to disable Bluethooth on your iPhone, though, otherwise the downloads will be slow as hell.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by maficious on Sunday August 08, 2021 @06:31PM (#28110754)
Exactly, but banks aren't a good example.

Some people here mention feature plateaus and completeness of the app. Obvious question is, what should the employer then do? The software is complete, from now on there's only maintenance, which is relatively less work compared to building from scratch, so as a consequence I guess developers should be paid less then? Or like you said, fired?

Obviously the manpower could be just moved to the next project, but what if we look at the worst case scenario? What comes next?

Are there at all such mechanisms that could allow for, say, a team of engineers that maintains a bunch of projects in different companies. If such a team would take a maintenance of a few complete programs, the count of them would make up the difference in pay, e.g. a few mainted apps for a lower pay equal pay for building one app from scratch.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by fma on Sunday August 08, 2021 @09:14PM (#28111747)
I huge non-tech company, manufacturing company. Our software that is perfectly stable and have no new business requirements fall in this bucket.

There's 2 scenarios 1) The entire dev team truly does move on...and the operations are in charge of the production app (they're in charge, anyways). There's no code changes...just OS, database security patching etc. If there are any code changes for security (i.e. upgrading Struts because Equifax got hacked...) then the business side that owns the app gets some resources. But otherwise it really isn't touched. It does cause some contention because no dev wants to be pulled in to work on those junk. But in the last few years, we have teams who's only job is to work on this kind of stuff. They work on apps that only need a dev team for a few months.

2) A stable app is part of a team. The team doesn't work on it anymore...For example my team previously owned ~8 systems. I think like 6 were mature where it had no new features. A lot of people actually left to other teams because of that - which is an issue in itself. What good dev would hang around? And when a new app or major feature is needed...you're left with stranglers and junior engineers who need to somehow step up.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by grishka on Sunday August 08, 2021 @06:34PM (#28110785)
What does a construction worker do when they complete a building?
Re:Apps Getting Worse by emodendroket on Sunday August 08, 2021 @08:22PM (#28111479)
A great many people are involved in maintaining existing buildings. This isn’t just a gotcha but reveals fundamentally faulty thinking underlying your analogy.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by actually_a_dog on Sunday August 08, 2021 @08:27PM (#28111511)
I don’t think it does. Buildings aren’t maintained by construction crews. They’re maintained by facilities teams, and maintenance contractors, the latter of which are hired on an as-needed basis rather than on permanent retainer.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by emodendroket on Sunday August 08, 2021 @08:29PM (#28111524)
It happens to be the case that software maintenance requires essentially the same skills as software implementation, so we don’t differentiate between the two jobs. And besides that, the nature of what people demand is different: nobody expects a single-family home to suddenly accommodate 50 families, but the equivalent of this is not exactly rare in the world of software.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by actually_a_dog on Sunday August 08, 2021 @09:12PM (#28111736)
You forgot that maintenance contractors aren’t kept on permanent retainer. Why bother keeping software maintenance crews on permanently?
Re:Apps Getting Worse by oscardssmith on Sunday August 08, 2021 @11:27PM (#28112471)
The big difference is that if a competent plumber looks at a sink, it will take them 30 seconds to figure out. If a competent programmer looks at a new codebase with 30000 lines of code, it will take them 6 months to understand it, and then still be missing 80% of the details.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by grishka on Sunday August 08, 2021 @08:31PM (#28111542)
Yes, sure. For online services, that would be all the people involved with maintaining infrastructure. But my point is that construction workers are no longer needed for that particular building once it's completed. Yet, somehow, apps and websites are never completed. They're always changing for no good reason.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by emodendroket on Sunday August 08, 2021 @08:36PM (#28111566)
But there are all kinds of code-level changes that end up being necessary, even if you never want any new features. You can't just have sysadmins and expect to run a service over the Internet.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by grishka on Sunday August 08, 2021 @09:00PM (#28111683)
What kinds of changes? Operating systems are also feature-complete and don't need that yearly release cycle. They only need updating if there are new hardware capabilities that need to be exposed to applications. And security patches don't change APIs.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by DougWebb on Sunday August 08, 2021 @07:28PM (#28111157)
Obviously they get started on redesigning the foundation.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by grishka on Sunday August 08, 2021 @07:29PM (#28111162)
And then start rebuilding it while people live already live or work inside.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by randomdata on Sunday August 08, 2021 @06:27PM (#28110730)
In my experience, bank software (customer facing) could use a development team.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by SilverRed on Sunday August 08, 2021 @08:20PM (#28111463)
I recently switched to a new bank which is basically an offshoot of an existing one where they handle all of the development, and the parent company manages the legal/banking part.

It's a really awesome setup really because they are constantly adding new and fun features, experimenting with what works best. Stuff like automatically rounding up every transaction and sending the remainder to your savings.

The ability to instantly create and delete savings "accounts" without having to register a real account number on the phone. My favorite feature is what they call 2up where you send an invite to another member of the bank and you instantly get a shared account where you can both add and withdraw money. It also adds a second card to your phone wallet which draws from the shared account. So much less work and risk than traditional shared accounts.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by wott on Sunday August 08, 2021 @06:44PM (#28110886)
Mine seems to use a different one each year :-/
Re:Apps Getting Worse by Solstafir on Sunday August 08, 2021 @11:49PM (#28112571)
In my experience, I have rarely seen anything which is feature complete. Either UI needs revamp because it's stale and not in current trends (like fashion industry) or the the backend starts to crumble with the weight of new ad-hoc features, increased number of users etc.

With agile, practically, many times development is just in time with little regard to long term requirements or the evolution of software so it's all layers of layers of things that work. There's rarely a time for fundamental restructuring of the codebase to meet the new requirement correctly.

Once the cracks begin to show, we start thinking of software rewrite.

For a construction of buildings, the redevelopment is about once 40 years, for software, it's about 5-7 years.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by JadeNB on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @09:27AM (#28128556)
> I have rarely seen anything which is feature complete. Either UI needs revamp because it's stale and not in current trends (like fashion industry)

Stale UI is very different from not being feature complete. vim and emacs are very stale UIs, but also as close to feature complete as I need, and thank God no-one feels the need to update them for modern UI preferences (or, rather, that those who do feel that need can do it without taking away my experience of classic vim).

Re:Apps Getting Worse by equality_1138 on Sunday August 08, 2021 @08:56PM (#28111659)
"A bank doesn't need a full-time development team for example."

How else will all those SVP's at your bank justify their fat salaries? They NEED more minions. Same goes for VC ecosystem. Funny how everyone has a scapegoat or a solution to this supposed software quality problem, not quite understanding the underlying financial incentives. Easy money -> rotten management -> crappy design.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by emodendroket on Sunday August 08, 2021 @08:19PM (#28111456)
Even if we just accepted your premise and ignored the fact that people are put off by old-looking apps, eventually something like iOS updates is going to break one of the apps. And in reality they add features regularly too.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by rl3 on Sunday August 08, 2021 @06:16PM (#28110645)
>I hope people will use Spotify as a case study in how to fuck up a UI over time.

My favorite regression is probably how the Windows client finally had type-to-search functionality for adding new songs to an existing playlist, and now it doesn't again. The Linux client still has it though!

This is to say nothing of their radio algorithm regression.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by davmar on Sunday August 08, 2021 @06:17PM (#28110646)
We can only blame ourselves for Spotify's bad UI! (jk) Spotify uses an internal experimentation platform that guides which features they determine are successful, based upon how our usage moves their metrics: https://engineering.atspotify.com/2020/10/29/spotifys-new-ex...

So, basically, the bad UI is improving their metrics. Or something. Maybe this is a case of experimentation gone wrong.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by xmprt on Sunday August 08, 2021 @06:23PM (#28110692)
I can only assume one of their metrics is the classic "time on app" or "user engagement" which is a bullshit metric for a music player. If I'm spending more time on the app then that clearly means I'm not finding what I'm looking for.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by ajmurmann on Sunday August 08, 2021 @06:41PM (#28110858)
I generally agree with engagement being a BS metric, I'm not sure I agree in this case, unless we separate out time I'm actively interacting with the app and time I'm listening to music and only call the former BS. When I first switched to Spotify from Google Play, I listened to a lot more music because the recommendation algorithm pointed me at a ton of music I ended up looking a lot. Now its recommendations have gotten to samey and my engagement declined. I'd love for them to improve recommendations and drive my engagement up that way.

Now, similar example is Netflix. I've at times reached a point where I think I had watched everything on the platform I'd enjoy. Their UI keeps showing old stuff as new tough, different pictures for the same show, etc. This led to wasted time and frustrating engagement. (Aside: the best Netflix UI ever was a script I wrote myself when they still had a public API that just listed all movies ordered by how much they predicted I'd like it. That paired with IMDB ratings and filtered by what I've already have seen would be the holy Grail but it would be obvious when it's time to unsubscribe for a while)

Re:Apps Getting Worse by ec109685 on Sunday August 08, 2021 @06:22PM (#28110690)
Sometimes it's hard to spot long term degradation of quality via short term experiments. Each little thing shows uplift, but overall it gets crapperier.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by adriancooney on Sunday August 08, 2021 @06:24PM (#28110711)
I'd imagine their metrics are aligned with user behaviour, not experience.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by g_p on Sunday August 08, 2021 @07:18PM (#28111101)
Most probably - metrics tend to be focused on something advertisers like to hear, like page views (paginate your artist listings for more page views!), scroll-downs (add loads of whitespace and padding and large artist photos), video watches (play the video in the background of the page), song plays (make it hard to find the song you want, so you try 10 until you find the right one...)

Given so many metrics are either time or attention based, they probably are opposed to user experience (less time needed to achieve the task).

Re:Apps Getting Worse by TeMPOraL on Sunday August 08, 2021 @07:21PM (#28111114)
> their metrics are aligned with user behaviour

Or rather, they're trying to align user behaviour. Since customers have very little choice in the matter (most popular SaaS products tend to resist commodification, so there's no equivalent competitor to jump to), these metric-driven approaches often effectively become PID controllers, driving user behaviours to a desired trajectory.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by hanniabu on Sunday August 08, 2021 @09:15PM (#28111751)
> I hope people will use Spotify as a case study in how to fuck up a UI over time.

Similarly with the Google Play to Youtube Music transition. Play was so clean, snappy, and intuitive. Youtube Music is similar to what you describe of Spotify where everything is buried, busy layout, and nothing is intuitive.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by mark-r on Sunday August 08, 2021 @10:18PM (#28112092)
Google Play was perfect for playing the .mp3 files on my Android phone. No need for an internet connection. Then suddenly it was ripped away, and YouTube is not remotely a replacement. I still haven't found an adequate replacement because I don't know how to search for the features that are important to me.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by exlurker on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:05AM (#28113183)
Foobar 2000 has served me really well for any local audio file.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by oscardssmith on Sunday August 08, 2021 @11:29PM (#28112484)
Vlc is quite good
Re:Apps Getting Worse by dec0dedab0de on Sunday August 08, 2021 @08:00PM (#28111360)
* At some point they should've just said "welp, don't need a UI team any more"*

They could have made the service compatible with all of the existing media players, and never hired a UI team to begin with.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by ozzythecat on Sunday August 08, 2021 @08:09PM (#28111406)
> At some point they should've just said "welp, don't need a UI team any more" and just never touched it again

I work at a tech company, and I’ll offer my take on why this didn’t happen.

Some growth oriented organizations incentivize product people to keep iterating and “improving” a product. Then, product people are on the hook to show some kind of measurable improvement in some metric. Otherwise, they miss out on promotions, or worst case, they get pushed out.

What I’ve seen happen is some elegant, simple UX that no one ever complained about suddenly morphs into a convoluted, busy mess of its former self. But hey, as long as some A/B test shows an increase in click through rate or total engagement time - great! Mission accomplished!

The root cause is these teams and product people don’t really obsess with the product or the customer experience. They’re incentivized towards optimizing some metric - which at face value appears like optimizing it would provide a better product. But it turns out that’s not the case.

These people all get promoted, pat themselves on the back, and move on. Slowly, the engineering teams realize that these business requirements and stringent launch dates led to a convoluted architecture. We can no longer move quickly or truly innovate. It honestly turns into death by a thousand cuts, where the second and third order effects of the incentive structure ultimately results in a not so great experience. It actually becomes increasingly expensive to fix the past mistakes… the reason could be compatibility or versioning issues, a mess of dependencies and services that no one really understands, or even just a general fear of breaking things and not having clarity on how to get back on track.

It might be that team A has the right senior leadership, but they rely on team or org B to fix issues or update some code. But that other team or org has their own product people, with their own priorities. They couldn’t care less.

What’s worse is that no one is really willing to call out these issues, at least not on the record. Sometimes it’s disengagement and other times it’s fear of coming off as a negative person. Because the immense complexity is too difficult to solve by one person alone, and they honestly don’t have a solution that people would really get behind.

Slowly the engineers burn out or feel disengaged. The great engineering talent ends up leaving. You end up with the career people or the disengaged people who are coasting by. At the end of the day, the customer suffers. We stopped obsessing with the customer experience. It’s turned overwhelmingly into cross team or cross org politics, salesmanship, and often times people focusing on the wrong problems (inventing solutions to problems that don’t even exist) while the obvious thing is right in front of them.

Okay I’ll stop my rant now.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by csydas on Sunday August 08, 2021 @09:09PM (#28111722)
>What’s worse is that no one is really willing to call out these issues, at least not on the record.

While internally I nod my head and 'agree' that all the above points must be true, the lack of voices on why we have such seemingly random UI changes bothers me on this subject.

There must be tens of thousands, if not higher, of UI/UX designers, and while I struggle a little to believe that Product Management is in such a sorry shape that PMs feel the need to change for the sake of change, it's harder for me to believe that we don't hear more complaints/post-mortems from the UI/UX devs out there. Surely not everyone is under some iron-clad NDA or is so afraid of their employer they won't even try with some throwaway accounts to tell the story of Management's lust for changing UI...

The sad (specious) conclusion I reach is that UI/UX changes that seem bad probably have far more thought put into complaint articles than the UI/UX/PM team ever had with the change in the first place. Whatever the motivation or justification is, seems the real reason for a lot of the changes from such softwares is 'what're the users going to do about it?', in most cases, the company already has their money...why care if you already recouped the on-boarding cost and then some?

But again, just speculation.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by tshaddox on Monday August 09, 2021 @12:59AM (#28112881)
> From a business standpoint I find it fascinating. It's about as perfect as an example it gets of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Presumably Spotify makes more money if you listen to artist A instead of artist B, and these changes are all part of the gradual change from an interface designed to let you browse and discover music you like to an interface designed to make you do whatever makes Spotify the most money that day.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by thethethethe on Sunday August 08, 2021 @08:20PM (#28111460)
> It's about as perfect as an example it gets of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Music player UI is a solved problem. At some point they should've just said "welp, don't need a UI team any more" and just never touched it again, but that would mean people admitting they don't really serve much purpose

This makes sense in the short term but what happens when UI design passes you by and all your competitors look sleek and modern while your UI looks clunky in comparison? Would you use Spotify if it's UI looked straight out of the 2002? Maybe you would, but most people will not.

[dead]
Re:Apps Getting Worse by dang on Monday August 09, 2021 @05:51PM (#28122754)
No personal attacks please, regardless of how wrong another comment is or you feel it is. We ban accounts that post like this and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28116532.

If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by wodenokoto on Sunday August 08, 2021 @06:04PM (#28110550)
> Music player UI is a solved problem.

No it isn’t. Not even close.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by upcode on Sunday August 08, 2021 @06:06PM (#28110563)
Thanks for such an insightful comment
Re:Apps Getting Worse by orhmeh09 on Sunday August 08, 2021 @06:30PM (#28110749)
It’s infinitely more insightful than the claim that it’s a solved problem, which rates as a zero on that scale.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by CamperBob2 on Sunday August 08, 2021 @10:42PM (#28112232)
OK, let's try to move the conversation in a more productive direction. What aspects of the music-player problem weren't already solved by 2010 or so?
Re:Apps Getting Worse by manigandham on Monday August 09, 2021 @04:34AM (#28113956)
What is unsolved? What's the revolutionary change since Winamp or Itunes in 2003?
Re:Apps Getting Worse by ChrisArchitect on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:27PM (#28120396)
I love and still use WinAmp and do not use any streaming -- but what changed is how people listen, thanks to iTunes and iPods etc and then Spotify. Everything is based on playlists and artist selection leaning away from albums/releases. It changed how people load up music, introduced a huge rise in 'random' playing that was way different than previous era of CDs where you'd pick an album and play it, or listen to radio and DJs are selecting things (perhaps the 'DJ' selecting has just been replaced/attempted to be duplicated locally by software I guess). The way people listen changed. Not a fan of it at all, but that's where the 'unsolved'ness comes from. IMO the way people listen became even more passive and lazy and the huge portion of the market that just streams whatever puts little to no effort into their music (read: people who 'like all kinds of music') and that's what's just fine by Spotify.
Re:Apps Getting Worse by manigandham on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @03:03AM (#28125875)
The UI is still the same though. A big grid of Song - Artist - Album. Everything is fundamentally based on that, whether that's your entire library, a playlist, or filtered by something else.

Everything else is an addition, but somehow modern apps have managed to make the basic grid worse too at the same time.

Re:Apps Getting Worse by akho on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:57AM (#28113440)
Last music player UI I liked was Muine circa 2007. I don’t think we are improving our solutions.