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Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by xoa on Monday July 26, 2021 @02:42PM (#27963463)
As always with patches to something of this level (if it is indeed Pegasus related say) it's important to note that if this was a rarified targeted-use exploit before it won't stay that way for long. Now that Apple has released a patch for it widespread reverse engineering will begin immediately and it'll only be a matter of time until packaged exploits become part of standard mass-use toolkits. Having a patch ready to deploy is great, but simultaneously means it's all the more important to get it deployed fairly promptly if it's something that could have serious root/remote execution potential.

Though I suppose if this bug can be used for a jailbreak there may be some people who'd actively want to stay on 14.7 as well. It's too bad on iOS Apple forces people to choose between security and control of their own systems and doesn't at least allow a purchase-time option to have the ability to load ones own root signing certificate.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by realusername on Monday July 26, 2021 @02:59PM (#27963729)
> Though I suppose if this bug can be used for a jailbreak there may be some people who'd actively want to stay on 14.7 as well. It's too bad on iOS Apple forces people to choose between security and control of their own systems and doesn't at least allow a purchase-time option to have the ability to load ones own root signing certificate.

That exactly why the jailbreak scene has no incentive to share any exploit with Apple and is obfuscating everything. That's not great for security but that's a direct consequence of Apple's policies.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by richardwhiuk on Monday July 26, 2021 @03:33PM (#27964245)
There's basically no difference between a jailbreak bug and a 0 day.

Both are vulnerabilities in the sandboxing.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by Ajedi32 on Monday July 26, 2021 @03:49PM (#27964476)
Correct. The issue is that Apple takes security systems designed as a defense against local attackers and uses them as a bulwark against their own customers.

Come to think of it, maybe that could be the basis of a right-to-repair law: companies which sell hardware products that restrict functionality or access to those who know some secret value must divulge those secrets to the device owner upon request at the time of purchase.

The only issue I can think of with a law like that is that it'd make DRM significantly less effective, though IMO that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by kube-system on Monday July 26, 2021 @04:02PM (#27964638)
The customer is the biggest security hole. Most security breaches these days are social-engineered.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by acdha on Monday July 26, 2021 @04:22PM (#27964930)
That's the hard part for all of this: if you are building an unlock mechanism the first question you need to ask is how you build a UI which clearly communicates to a user that they are likely giving control of all of their data, location/camera/microphone, etc. to whatever they're installing.

The scammers who push malware under the guise of tech support, free porn/games, etc. are effective enough to compromise millions of people and that's before you get to the question of what it'd look like if a government started pushing access for monitoring. How many people might consider installing something which this guy they met in a coffeeshop says will protect their messages from government surveillance? Now consider how many people might have malware installed by an abusive domestic partner, and where control of the device would extend to hiding the existence of spyware.

This is not to say that Apple is acting without self-interest here, only that I think there's really a pretty nasty market failure making it quite difficult to reconcile someone being able to make choices about their device with a fairly high risk of compromise with potentially significant consequences.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by cmg on Monday July 26, 2021 @06:09PM (#27966112)
> if you are building an unlock mechanism the first question you need to ask is how you build a UI which clearly communicates to a user that they are likely giving control of all of their data, location/camera/microphone, etc. to whatever they're installing.

Facebook puts a large "Stop!" warning in the browser console when you try to open developer tools with a link to https://www.facebook.com/selfxss. I'd be really curious to see if that's helped to stop such attacks on their side.

Full text: "This is a browser feature intended for developers. If someone told you to copy-paste something here to enable a Facebook feature or "hack" someone's account, it is a scam and will give them access to your Facebook account."

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by snowwrestler on Monday July 26, 2021 @07:39PM (#27966879)
Facebook themselves convinced teenagers to side-load an iOS app that used Facebook’s enterprise cert to circumvent Apple’s privacy protections. They got caught and Apple revoked the cert, which broke all their internal iOS apps.

If Facebook is willing to fool kids into giving up their privacy via side-loading, you can imagine why Apple is nervous about how things would go if anyone could easily do so.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by alisonkisk on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @02:30AM (#27969291)
Apple lets Facebook run on iOS.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by eecc on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @03:29AM (#27969625)
In a sandbox, and gradually stripping it of its privacy-invading features, while alerting users of the amount of tracking information it collects.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by pnexk on Monday July 26, 2021 @07:40PM (#27966893)
Discord does the same when you open the electron inspect element panel with F12. Wonder how much that's helped as well
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by acdha on Monday July 26, 2021 @07:12PM (#27966636)
That’s an interesting question: I’d love to know how effective that’s been.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by deeblering4 on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @12:33AM (#27968643)
> That's the hard part for all of this: if you are building an unlock mechanism the first question you need to ask is how you build a UI which clearly communicates to a user that they are likely giving control of all of their data, location/camera/microphone, etc. to whatever they're installing.

Nah, thats a win2k era cop-out. The hard part is balancing secure by default and granting privs only when absolutely necessary (and authenticated)

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by acdha on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @07:34AM (#27971182)
It’s recognizing that giving up control of the trusted base means giving up control of the device. If that option is available, people will be tricked or coerced into using it, or it will be done without their knowledge – as evidenced by all of that being done not uncommonly on desktops.

I think a better angle is pushing for relaxing software distribution: keep the trust chain but let people run apps in the normal sandbox even if those haven’t gone through the current process. Exploits are still possible, of course, but the normal controls allowing user awareness of the device’s status would be intact.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by sudosysgen on Monday July 26, 2021 @11:32PM (#27968325)
The solution is to not make people have to root their device for that to begin with. Allow people to install apps within the sandbox with minimal static scanning and perhaps a DB of hashes for security notifications later, and let that be it. You'll crush the market for easily accessible Jb tools too
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by GeekyBear on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @04:24AM (#27969969)
> Allow people to install apps within the sandbox with minimal static scanning and perhaps a DB of hashes for security notifications later, and let that be it.

We know exactly what happens when you do this. Less savvy users will be tricked into installing malware.

For instance, a couple of months ago:

>FlixOnline App Spreads Android Malware by Promising Free Netflix

https://www.thequint.com/tech-and-auto/flixonline-app-spread...

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by acdha on Monday July 26, 2021 @11:41PM (#27968368)
I think that’s the right direction, too. It doesn’t help the people who have an ideological position that they should be able to do anything with the device but it seems more practical.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by fuckyouriotshit on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @02:29AM (#27969286)
> ideological position that they should be able to do anything with the device

While there are people who make this argument purely on ideological grounds (similar to arguments you hear about individual freedoms vs collective rights), it's essential to recognize that _completely_ removing the ability of independent developers to write and run software if the manufacturer has decided they don't like that developer will slowly destroy the competition, creativity and freedom that created most of the technologies that are used today.

It's reasonable to make the argument that the manufacturer needs to secure the devices that they sell, even for users with low technical literacy.

Advocating for the manufacturers to be given total control over everything that every user can do with their device won't guarantee increased security, but it certainly would result in manufacturers being able to disable any software they chose to, regardless of legitimacy, without reason or recourse.

That's a prospect that is (IMO) far more terrifying than what it could prevent (some users falling for certain types of phishing attacks that install spyware).

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by acdha on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @11:45AM (#27973796)
> That's a prospect that is (IMO) far more terrifying than what it could prevent (some users falling for certain types of phishing attacks that install spyware).

I disagree with that conclusion (the latter scenario happens frequently and has lead to significant consequences, including death) but completely agree that it's not a good situation that the alternative is giving a couple of companies control over who gets to ship software. That's why I described it as a market failure — as a user you're left picking which set of drawbacks is less of a problem for you.

What I'd like is basically opening up the App Store walls: allow users to enable third-party stores but everyone runs their apps inside the same sandbox, and the OS vendor retains some global kill switch for malware but with some level of public oversight.

One edge case for this would be the apps which need special permissions: for example, some cell carriers have special entitlements on iOS which allow their apps to talk to their networks in ways which normally are blocked. Reconciling edge cases like that with multiple stores would require care.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by realusername on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @02:45AM (#27969365)
> It's reasonable to make the argument that the manufacturer needs to secure the devices that they sell, even for users with low technical literacy.

We've been in this argument before and the most secure platform today is still the web, an open platform where the code is designed to run on demand.

There's a reason everybody asks to install their native app, there's much more data to gather there than in the web.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by fuckyouriotshit on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @05:45AM (#27970502)
I think we're actually in agreement.

I'm not suggesting that the manufacturer should be creating closed platforms to "secure" things for the user; I'm saying that closed platforms can't guarantee an increase in security but will guarantee the slow erosion of openness in all other platforms.

I'm well aware of how native apps are heavily marketed over their web-app equivalents because companies want to gather more data, get access to push notifications (on iOS at least), etc.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by Ajedi32 on Monday July 26, 2021 @04:10PM (#27964756)
Probably true, but the solution to that must not be to treat the user like a child unable to make decisions for themself.

If a person decides to give up control of their device to another person or organization (like the device manufacturer) fine, but that should be a voluntary decision on the part of the user, not something forced.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by JumpCrisscross on Monday July 26, 2021 @04:50PM (#27965282)
> the solution to that must not be to treat the user like a child unable to make decisions for themself

There is a wide gap between being unable to decide for oneself in the general case, like a child, and being unable to decide for oneself due to lack of expert knowledge. Sometimes, less is more. Apple built its brand on this insight.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by pjmlp on Monday July 26, 2021 @04:31PM (#27965048)
The old Internet Explorer full of toolbars, and a notification area with an endless amount of background services, kind of proves the point that the general public are children unable to make decisions for themselves.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by feikname on Monday July 26, 2021 @06:14PM (#27966155)
These toolbars were usually bundled with legit software (Heck, even Java installed Bing toolbar..) behind dark patterns where a computer beginner would, understandably, not realize they were also installing something else.

As long as the dialog for unlocking your phone would clearly state the risks and what it does, unlike those toolbars upon installation, I think it would totally be OK.

Imagine if you couldnt install Linux on any PC because Dell didnt give you the keys to prevent you from hurting yourself. Or Apple didnt allow sudo in macOS. Seems kinda absurd right? Yet this is the standard for phones.

Also Id like to point out that Android allows installation of external APKs (after activating) and it didnt lead to a super increase in malware, as user still prefer the Play Store, and APK are usually left for the more technically inclined user for niche purposes or often times Region lock circumventing.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by fingerlocks on Monday July 26, 2021 @11:56PM (#27968444)
> and it didnt lead to a super increase in malware

Are you sure about that? I pulled an old, cheap Android phone out of storage box to do some debugging. I needed a quick file manager app, installed one of the top results on Google Play that was baked with some malware that may have bricked the device (didn't bother to try to fix it, it's in the bootloader). Granted this was an old version of Android, but that's still a bit egregious. I can't recall anything like that happening on iOS.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by alisonkisk on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @02:33AM (#27969308)
how do you know it was malware and not a hardware or sofrware failure?
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by fingerlocks on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @04:39AM (#27970087)
Childish message on the screen, googled it. Boot loader is infected.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by pjmlp on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @01:45AM (#27969030)
Security reports for Android

https://blog.zimperium.com/new-advanced-android-malware-posi...

-> "Upon installation (from a third party store, not Google Play Store), the device gets registered with the Firebase Command and Control (C&C) with details such as the presence or absence of WhatsApp, battery percentage, storage stats, the token received from the Firebase messaging service, and the type of internet connection. "

It isn't hard to find similar reports, there are enough of them.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by theshadowknows on Monday July 26, 2021 @10:02PM (#27967780)
Wanna know the sad thing? When I was…12 or so… I thought all those cool icons were awesome. So I _only_ installed programs that had them…and all those little “desktop buddies” I had maybe five of them. Innocent days gone bye.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by acdha on Monday July 26, 2021 @04:24PM (#27964957)
What if that person's “decision” was being tricked by a scammer? Or being in an abusive relationship? Or living in a surveillance state?

I want people to have more control over devices but there are some non-trivial threats which millions of people face which are currently defanged by things like the OS not allowing malware installs, or hiding the use of various sensors or data access, etc.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by mehlmao on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @01:10AM (#27968874)
If you live in a surveillance state, Apple is happy to hand over the keys (so long as the market is big enough).
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by Ajedi32 on Monday July 26, 2021 @04:44PM (#27965211)
So people might make bad decisions, therefore they should not be allowed to make decisions at all?

Sure, do everything you can to educate the user on what they're doing and make things as hard as possible for scammers, but ultimately it must be their choice who controls their device, not yours.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by acdha on Monday July 26, 2021 @05:30PM (#27965755)
We don't have absolute freedom in many areas because the law recognizes that the general public either is not capable of making informed decisions when that requires high-levels of skill or when there is a high likelihood of bad outcomes due to malicious actors.

For example, if you buy a car there are safety features you cannot turn off without major modifications. Dangerous tools often have safety guards built-in to the design — for example, my blender doesn't say it's my choice whether to keep the spinning blade covered. My bank doesn't say it's my choice whether or not to identify myself when making a withdrawal.

For most people, iOS limiting the damage when they get compromised is a huge plus. Removing that entirely in the absolute position is bringing people back a couple of decades ago only now the malware will have access to their most private moments and data 24x7 rather than just their Geocities browsing history.

Now, consider what that means for something like unlocking the bootloader. Allowing that means undetectable malware, potentially irrecoverable. There's not really a good way around that and even if you try to inform people at the time they enable it that doesn't help if it's done when the device is out of their control (abusive partner, boss, police, etc.), and every on-screen indicator can be faked by the malware vendor. That leaves options like a physical switch in a prominent location which most people aren't going to want to pay for or see, and are more likely to be used by accident than intentionally.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by heavyset_go on Monday July 26, 2021 @06:53PM (#27966487)
> For example, if you buy a car there are safety features you cannot turn off without major modifications.

To use a direct analogy with Apple's restrictions on users, you're free to modify and flash your car's ECU firmware. In fact, it's quite common.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by dev_tty01 on Monday July 26, 2021 @07:30PM (#27966809)
>In fact, it's quite common.

Really? How have you defined common? Where is that data from? I can't imagine anything more than a tiny fraction of car owners are doing this. Most people are not hacking their cars, building Raspberry Pi controllers for their toilets, or have any desire whatsoever to side load an app on their iPhone. The HN community is not representative of the overall population.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by Nextgrid on Monday July 26, 2021 @09:35PM (#27967625)
It's common enough that there's a legitimate industry around that and a lot of auto-tuning shops will do it on request. In most cases though it's just editing the built-in data tables rather than completely replacing the firmware, and it's often done for engine performance reasons rather than bypassing safety features.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by eecc on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @03:34AM (#27969662)
And possibly blowing the cars’ mileage and emissions limits which were defined by regulation and would make the car illegal to drive if measured…
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by heavyset_go on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @01:42AM (#27969018)
Mechanics do it often, as do people who work on their cars. It isn't the Hacker News segment that is doing it, but the people who work on cars for a living or for fun.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by mason55 on Monday July 26, 2021 @11:01PM (#27968172)
And you’re free to jailbreak your phone. It’s not illegal. No ones going to arrest you.

But no one says the car manufacturers are required to make a car where you can flash the ECU. There’s just no reason for them to block it. If someone came up with a way to steal your car by tricking your into running an app that flashed your ECU then you can bet Ford would disable it pretty quickly.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by tatersolid on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @01:50PM (#27975386)
> But no one says the car manufacturers are required to make a car where you can flash the ECU. There’s just no reason for them to block it.

Sure there is… if they are providing warranty on the vehicle then they should definitely block ECU mods, as a customer could flash original firmware back after causing damage.

And I imagine you can easily make an engine over-rev or overheat with a modded ECU, perhaps to the point of causing a fire or other catastrophe.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by feikname on Monday July 26, 2021 @06:23PM (#27966229)
> Dangerous tools often have safety guards built-in to the design

A phone is not, usually, a dangerous tool. Unless you can make it explode :)

> For most people, iOS limiting the damage when they get compromised is a huge plus.

Then just dont unlock. The unlock would need to be done from inside the OS, by the user, not by external actor.

> Now, consider what that means for something like unlocking the bootloader. Allowing that means undetectable malware, potentially irrecoverable. There's not really a good way around that and even if you try to inform people at the time they enable it that doesn't help if it's done when the device is out of their control (abusive partner, boss, police, etc.)

If you have an abusive partner, boss, etc. you're already at risk because they will keep looking at your phone anyway and you're in no position to refuse. A way better solution is to have a burner phone they don't know about.

Agreed with the police point, but I think after getting your phone from police you could just clean install iOS again to make sure nothing unwanted is there.

P.S. On 2nd hand market, you could just as easily reinstall stock iOS once you buy a new phone to prevent buying 2nd hand unlocked iPhone with malware.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by acdha on Monday July 26, 2021 @07:08PM (#27966610)
> Then just dont unlock.

What if _you_ didn’t? I outlined scenarios which are real risks for millions of people and a fair fraction of those either involve no or limited user consent. Maybe it’d be possible to have a secure factory reset – this is harder than it might seem with firmware in so many places – but that only helps if you even know that you need to. Anything which allows undetectable rootkits means that a large number of people will never even realize that because phones are general purpose devices and most people are not security experts. Worse, how many of them are actively being betrayed by trusted experts - abusive partners, unethical technicians, etc. - who will say it’s fine?

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by Spooky23 on Monday July 26, 2021 @06:07PM (#27966088)
There probably hasn’t ever been a time with more options to do just that than today.

The reality is it isn’t 1981 and computers aren’t toys or cloistered academic devices anymore. Mass market platforms need to be more secure than 90s era tech allowed.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by Steko on Monday July 26, 2021 @05:02PM (#27965428)
> If a person decides to give up control of their device to another person or organization (like the device manufacturer

Exactly but what you’re missing is that with iOS this decision is made when you buy the phone.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by eecc on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @02:26AM (#27969276)
Next thing, Facebook lures users into side-loading their app. The app won’t provide any warning about the complete mirroring of any user activity, just “stay in contact with your loved ones” and “ooh kittens”. Everyone will install it because of FOMO and network effect; and there goes your privacy.

Eventually also google, Amazon, anyone under the sun will do the same, just in case some aspect of your privacy is not captured.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by fuckyouriotshit on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @02:56AM (#27969424)
The only way that sort of corporate behavior by Facebook, etc. is to regulate how data about users can be collected and have real (potentially criminal) penalties for data collection without informed consent.

Technical solutions (like preventing side-loading) cannot possibly eliminate the thing driving the behavior; profit motive for stealthily gathering data to build "better" user profiles to lease to advertisers.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by eecc on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @03:38AM (#27969680)
Well, we’re getting there: EU GDPR regulation. But given the inter-jurisdictional nature of the internet, I’m happy to use a device that makes it hard to syphon my personal data and dump it beyond reach
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by fuckyouriotshit on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @06:24AM (#27970747)
Making it hard to siphon personal data doesn't require manufacturers to prevent side-loading of apps.

A much better solution would be to create better permissions models (capability-based) for mobile devices.

As an example, one could build a granular permissions model which forced apps to be composed of multiple modules. Each module would have their own sets of mutually exclusive permissions.

An app that allowed the user to apply filters to photos/videos could be composed of two modules:

One which had read and create permissions for files the photo library along with read-only access to an app-local storage directory

A module which had the network communications permissions (exclusively by OS APIs that performed all the crypto[1]) and write-only access to the app-local storage directory (for downloading new filters)

By forcing apps to be broken up into separate modules and ensuring that all network communication is done from a carefully constrained sandbox (which can only read/transmit a tiny subset of data generated/available to the app), users could see exactly what the app transmitted without having to install their own self-signed root certificate (and maybe also jailbreak their devices if the app that they're interested in is using certificate pinning or ignoring the OS certificates).

The best way to technically combat a lot of this sort of data-slurping nonsense would be to force apps to have near[1] total transparency for all network communication for any user that wanted to see.

[1] The OS crypto API would have to provide a few authentication routines which blanked passwords, secret keys, etc. after use to prevent the unintentional leaking of secrets. Those APIs would obviously have to be designed to be resistant to malicious use by Facebook, etc.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by rur77r7r7 on Monday July 26, 2021 @05:51PM (#27965940)
Doesn't track at all. If a person wants a device with that sort of freedom they can buy one or fund one. The only reason there aren't devices famous for empowering users is because users don't want to have to deal with that. It's only techbros and people they scare with racist China imagery that care. This 'Must Not' mentality is just entitlement.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by snowwrestler on Monday July 26, 2021 @07:40PM (#27966892)
Are people forced to buy iPhones now?
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by squiggleblaz on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @03:20AM (#27969567)
The security model is wrong. In order to get access to my own data, I have to prove I am who I say I am to someone who doesn't know me from a bar of soap. It makes no sense to blame the user for that.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by dadver on Monday July 26, 2021 @04:08PM (#27964724)
Source?
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by Godel_unicode on Monday July 26, 2021 @08:35PM (#27967274)
https://www.verizon.com/business/resources/reports/dbir/2021...

If we're quibbling, they likely meant plurality as opposed to majority. It's close to an outright majority though.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by kbenson on Monday July 26, 2021 @04:10PM (#27964754)
> Most security breaches these days are social-engineered.

I don't know why people even bother making statements like that here without backing them up, when it's pretty obvious the first response is going to be to request a source.

So, source please?

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by kube-system on Monday July 26, 2021 @04:16PM (#27964838)
I made the claim from first-hand experience, but if you'd like third party sources, here's one:

https://enterprise.verizon.com/resources/reports/2019-data-b...

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by kbenson on Monday July 26, 2021 @04:41PM (#27965176)
Thank you for the link. FWIW, as I understand it, that indicates that social is neither the majority, nor the most common form of breach, but it is increasing over time.

That's the problem with using first hand experience. Unless you're doing a statistical review and your experience is actually collating data, the chance that your experience accurately reflects real world data is wildly dependent on the topic, and with one with as many variables as this, I would expect the chance a statement like that be correct more akin to luck than an correctly inferred results from a relevant subset of data. i.e. What industry you work in, what your actual job is, and what you already know about it is likely to wildly influence what you see. Even someone working in the security industry is likely to see only a subset related to their job/interests.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by Godel_unicode on Monday July 26, 2021 @08:40PM (#27967298)
You should probably go re-examine the summary of findings chart. It's number one as a cause, although not strictly speaking a majority. Also, more to the point, ~85% of breaches were human-involved.

https://www.verizon.com/business/dam/img/resources/reports/2...

https://www.verizon.com/business/dam/img/resources/reports/2...

This is a very widely discussed trend in the industry and has been for literally almost a decade. It has lead to the tired trope of the number one hardening recommendation being "get rid of the users" as well as the much more helpful "users can't be expected to participate in their own security, it needs to be done for them transparently".

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by kbenson on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @01:38AM (#27968997)
> You should probably go re-examine the summary of findings chart.

Those are not the same figures on the PDF listed. The PDF presented seems to be from 2019, and I can't tell because your images are presented out of context, but it looks like hey might be from a newer report?

The PDF linked has a summary of findings that shows in figure 4 that 52% of breaches included hacking, and that 33% included social attacks.

Assuming I've found the document you're using as a source[1] (it's nice to have a newer version, but I hardly think it's fitting to ask me to reexamine a summary of findings chart that I was not originally presented with), it does go into more recent information.

That said, figures 20[2] and 21 in the new report do shed some more light on what we're actually talking about, and brings up the difference between "incidents" and "breaches" in this report, and what they mean. They define an incident as something that compromised the integrity, confidentiality or availability of an asset, while a breach is something that results in a confirmed disclosure of information. While phishing (social) is top in breaches as a bit less than 40% and pretexting (social) also makes a good showing in the breach chart (figure 20[2]), the much more expansive category of incidents (figure 21[3]) is overwhelmingly dominated by DoS (hacking) at almost 60%.

While that may seem like splitting hairs, especially since the original comment mentioned breaches, it was in response to and in the context of iPhone users, which is end user security. These reports are about businesses, and note they're following the NAICS standard to categorize victim organizations. They source their data from paid external forensic investigations, direct recording by partners using VERIS, and converting partners existing schema of data into VERIS (paraphrasing Appendix A). I think this discussion is about people and security in general, and I don't think this data is about that, I think it's about companies and organizations.

Now, to be clear, on thinking about this more closely I fully believe that social engineering attacks likely could be the majority of attacks when taking into account end users, and I imagine quite a lot of end user malware and ransomware that is likely installed from email, but I'm not sure, and I'm not sure how much browser exploits account for that, or how much phones change the picture. If we were just considering home systems, the majority I assume are firewalled at this point, I would definitely assume social engineering, but with phones out hopping public ranges through data plans and sharing wifi at many businesses, I'm not sure how that may be changed.

In any case, I think it's completely valid to call out someone that makes a general factual statement such as "Most security breaches these days are social-engineered." without providing that evidence. It's not self evident, and there's a lot of data to look at, as we've seen.

1: https://enterprise.verizon.com/resources/reports/2021-data-b...

2: https://www.verizon.com/business/dam/img/resources/reports/2...

3: https://www.verizon.com/business/dam/img/resources/reports/2...

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by joshspankit on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @05:04PM (#27977645)
It might be worth an additional “paired” law that companies are not allowed to both sell hardware/OS and copyright-protected media.

Some of the worst DRM has been because Apple has a vested interest in restricting your ability to use your computer freely.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by mschuster91 on Monday July 26, 2021 @04:20PM (#27964904)
> The only issue I can think of with a law like that is that it'd make DRM significantly less effective, though IMO that's not necessarily a bad thing.

I wonder why movie companies these days still insist on shipping DRM garbage. HDCP is broken on a fundamental level, you can grab strippers for about 90€ on ebay, and BD+ is similarly broken.

It literally has no purpose other than annoying customers who have rooted their Android phones (Netflix refuses to go above 480p) or want legitimate backups of their bought content.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by martimarkov on Monday July 26, 2021 @04:09PM (#27964747)
I bought an iPhone because of the fact those things are mostly hidden.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by solarkraft on Monday July 26, 2021 @05:03PM (#27965440)
Jailbreaks require 0 days. What’s amazing is that they keep coming out despite the prices being so high and the game already having been played for so long.

Just a shame it won’t be in iOS 15.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by Hackbraten on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @06:03AM (#27970629)
Most exploits used in a jailbreak are developed only after a public patch for the underlying bugs appears.

Once the patch is publicly available, an exploit has much less commercial value. (Attackers don’t like having to call their target and tell them not to apply the patch.)

It therefore makes sense to donate such exploits for a jailbreak.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by baby on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @02:29AM (#27969284)
There is some difference. Some 0day are exploitable by just sending a text, whereas some jailbreaks are like self reflected xss
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by IncRnd on Monday July 26, 2021 @07:27PM (#27966777)
There is a difference. Not all 0days are jailbreaks. All jailbreaks are unpatched 0days.

All tall people are human. Not all humans are tall.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by isodev on Monday July 26, 2021 @04:32PM (#27965063)
I can’t fully grasp the argument about jail breaking. The device was never intended to be used this way in the first place. The process itself probably also relies on bugs that need to be reported, not harnessed.

I own my device without the need to root it, every feature in the brochure is available to me as a user.

I understand that around the 90s owning anything with an OS also implied the ability to mess with the box of bolts and circuits that run the OS but that’s no longer the case. At least not when it comes to phones.

I mean sure maybe you want a fancy device to play with … get a PCB and do whatever you want with it while your phone is updating.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by Bayart on Monday July 26, 2021 @04:49PM (#27965264)
>The device was never intended to be used this way in the first place.

The manufacturer has no say on the usage, simple as that. That there are better ways to tinker is irrelevant. It doesn't preclude the right of people to tinker with anything they own at their own convenience, including an iPhone if that's what they got.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by planb on Monday July 26, 2021 @05:06PM (#27965471)
You are absolutely right. The manufacturer and the law has no say on the usage of a device I own. And still I cannot expect them to support a way of usage that was never intended. So Apple shouldn't be (and isn't) able to sue jailbreakers, but they don't have to make it easy for them.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by Siira on Thursday July 29, 2021 @05:02AM (#27994363)
Apple’s security theater is the pillar of their anticompetitive behaviors. The only users it helps are noobs who will just install whatever. If some serious actor wants your data, the theater doesn’t deter them, as evidenced by this Pegasus. If China wants your data, Apple will hand it over themselves.

It’s all a “think of the children” race-to-the-bottum where rent-seekers abuse fear and sycophanty to monopolize critical infrastructure.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by xvector on Thursday July 29, 2021 @05:54AM (#27994652)
Targeted attacks from nation states aren't in the average person's threat model, though it's definitely one Apple tries (and fails) to tackle.

But Apple's security measures definitely help against virtually anything else. Over-zealous police and border patrol. Script kiddies. General spyware and malware.

I think you're forgetting how bad mobile security was before both Apple and Google started adding these hardening measures to their flagship devices. You really couldn't trust your phone at all. Now, you somewhat can.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by shadowoflight on Monday July 26, 2021 @05:15PM (#27965591)
You're free to tinker with an iPhone however you want, it just might require you to be smart enough to work around the built-in security measures.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by heavyset_go on Monday July 26, 2021 @06:58PM (#27966527)
You're free to tinker with your John Deere equipment however you want, it just might require you to be smart enough to work around the built-in security measures.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by Godel_unicode on Monday July 26, 2021 @08:50PM (#27967358)
I mean, yes? The OS not being locked down is a feature, like the ring tone being changeable. If you want that feature, buy a phone/tractor with that feature.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by isodev on Monday July 26, 2021 @04:59PM (#27965393)
I’m not disputing the right to do whatever you want with your phone.

My comment was specifically targeting the fact that jail breaking somehow encourages people to develop means of circumventing the security of devices. This is when this becomes dangerous - suddenly it has the potential to hurt unsuspecting users. Saying that the responsibility is with Apple (or Google) to make this possible feels like a straw man argument - their job is to earn money (no illusions there) and keep users safe, even if it means making it harder to tinker (which also helps them earn money)

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by wizzwizz4 on Monday July 26, 2021 @05:04PM (#27965446)
That's why we need changes to the law.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by rahilb on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @06:28AM (#27970771)
>The manufacturer has no say on the usage, simple as that.

Where does this end? Should all devices that have computers attached be capable of being 'rooted'?

You would not have the expectation if for example you purchased an MRI machine, that it should be able to emulate a Game Boy. A phone is also a special purpose computer; and the phone's software is designed to guarantee that those special purposes always work.

In my opinion this is the main thing that this root crowd does not understand; the iPhone is not a general purpose computing device. You should not have bought one if that's what you wanted. The market is full of general purpose computers that can make phone calls.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by tarsinge on Monday July 26, 2021 @05:03PM (#27965435)
Arbitrary separating the hardware from the OS is not the same thing as the manufacturer having a say on usage. Like I am free to use my car how I want, but that I may not be able to easily repair it or swap parts like the seats or the engine is another problem.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by _fat_santa on Monday July 26, 2021 @05:06PM (#27965473)
I feel like Jailbreaking was much more of a thing about 10-12 years ago when the iPhone 3G/3GS and 4 came out. Around that time iOS was still pretty limited in what you could do . So Jailbreaking gave you the ability to:

- Set a background wallpaper - Reply to SMS in a quick reply window (I still miss BiteSMS) - Create albums in Photos. - An "Android Like" (back then) quick toggle.

Nowdays all these features and more are part of iOS, but back then Jailbreaking let you do so many things that Apple hadn't gotten around to including in iOS.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by techrat on Monday July 26, 2021 @08:28PM (#27967225)
> Around that time iOS was still pretty limited in what you could do

I'd argue it still is.

I can't install a third party web browser that doesn't use WebKit.

I can't select alternative default apps to most apps bundled with the OS.

I still can't unlock the bootloader.

I still can't browse the entire filesystem.

People who espouse the virtues of jailbreaking on iOS tend to forget one big thing... the exploits that are used to jailbreak are also exploits used by malware creators to compromise the system.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by haswell on Monday July 26, 2021 @10:33PM (#27967988)
The difference between then and now is that back then, the limitations impacted the average user. “Normal” users were interested in jailbreaking because it meant they could get access to still relatively basic apps by today’s standards.

The items you just listed matter only to people like the posters here. We have philosophical differences with the limitations in place today, but back in the heyday, those limitations were just fundamental gaps in functionality available to users.

With the many major new APIs available to devs over the years and with the maturation of the App Store, those original drivers behind jailbreaking just aren’t there for the most part.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by sudosysgen on Monday July 26, 2021 @11:36PM (#27968344)
Most of my average iPhone using friends have an issue with the filesystem being opaque relatively frequently.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by barsonme on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @01:45AM (#27969036)
Most of my friends don’t even know what a file system is, so I’d say having opinions about it puts them above average.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by dvdkon on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @05:03AM (#27970247)
In my case, the iPhone users around me bump into barriers that wouldn't be there if iOS didn't keep all data in inaccessible silos, but they don't see them as such. For example, someone wanted to back up all their iMessage conversations, including photos. This turned out to be a pain precisely because I couldn't just copy an "all iMessage data" folder like I could on macOS, but they didn't attribute it to the lack of filesystem access. To them (and most users presumably), it was just a problem of "why doesn't the iPhone let me back up iMessage to my computer easily?".
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by haswell on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @09:53AM (#27972452)
Does the local backup with iTunes not include iMessage?

I don't know too may users who care only about a specific aspect of their phone when backing up. I do have non-technical friends who do iTunes/local backups because they "don't trust the cloud", but I've never encountered a person trying to do this piecemeal.

For what it's worth, there are decent 3rd party tools like iMazing that are easy to use and do give you more granular control.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by dpedu on Monday July 26, 2021 @05:10PM (#27965528)
The primary point of jailbreaking is to be able to run native apps not approved by or banned by Apple and that is something you still cannot do.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by isodev on Monday July 26, 2021 @05:22PM (#27965667)
Yes, it’s very unfortunate when an app is not available for some reason.

In most cases it’s a valid reason - the app is malicious, poorly made or somehow in conflict with local law. Also imagine if you are an app developer an suddenly your project (on which you’ve spent countless hours of hard work) is unexpectedly leaked as freely available for download and side-loading. I’m not talking big Corps like epic and blizzard … but people like you and me.

Open source apps can be loaded easily, so developers who really want to make their stuff available can still do so and users won’t need to hack their phones to get such apps. But of course this can’t happen en masse.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by dpedu on Monday July 26, 2021 @05:41PM (#27965845)
The affect of piracy is generally overstated and commonly bundled with the (incorrect) belief that a pirate would instead be a paying customer if the piracy option was not available.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by draugadrotten on Monday July 26, 2021 @06:01PM (#27966038)
The Steam model appears to be way better. I am buying 10x more things on Steam than I will ever have time to use, while I generally avoid Appstore as much as possible for Mac apps (and even for phone apps when there is an alternative) The psychology of the Steam store is very different from the Appstore.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by danieldk on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @02:46AM (#27969377)
while I generally avoid Appstore as much as possible for Mac apps

Interesting, I do the opposite. When something is available in the Mac App Store or through other means, I will generally buy it in the App Store. Why? Application sandboxing is mandatory for Mac App Store apps and I strongly prefer that applications are sandboxed by default.

The second, less important, reason is that I can just install the applications with just one click and don't have to download them from different places, look up their serial numbers, etc.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by realityking on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @05:17AM (#27970327)
Agreed. I‘ve even rebought some apps on the App Store just for the security and convenience.

That said, I‘m struggling with the constraints Apple puts on the business models of developers, for example when it comes to upgrade pricing. While I have a fair amount of software Mac/iOS subscriptions running (8 by my current count) there‘s definitely software I passed on because it moved to a subscription model.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by jsjohnst on Monday July 26, 2021 @06:53PM (#27966483)
> that is something you still cannot do

Factually wrong. You can run apps on iOS without jailbreaking that weren’t approved by Apple, or even ones banned by Apple. This has been true for years. Yes, the required resigning of the app every seven days is a major hindrance, but it is still something you very much CAN do.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by techrat on Monday July 26, 2021 @08:30PM (#27967234)
A temporary cert only able to be created on another Apple system is not what I would say is an 'allowing' of running third party apps.

It is a kludge designed to make the process as unpleasant as possible but just so enough that Apple can claim they don't block sideloading.

It's disingenuous.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by jsjohnst on Monday July 26, 2021 @09:13PM (#27967506)
> A temporary cert only able to be created on another Apple system

You don’t need an Apple system to codesign. Two results on first page of search results:

https://github.com/zhlynn/zsign

https://weisser-zwerg.dev/posts/ios-app-without-mac/

> make the process as unpleasant as possible but just so enough that Apple can claim they don't block sideloading

Apple doesn’t claim they don’t block side-loading. Actually I believe they claim the opposite in the Epic case (even though it is possible via a supported process) because it was “necessary to ensure the safety of their user base” or something like that.

> It's disingenuous

Shifting goal posts from “you can’t” to “you can’t without X” once someone points out the first was factually incorrect is considered disingenuous by many too.

(Edit for formatting and provide links)

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by dpedu on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @11:39AM (#27985090)
> Shifting goal posts from “you can’t” to “you can’t without X” once someone points out the first was factually incorrect is considered disingenuous by many too.

First off, you're making a huge assumption here.

Second, the only goalpost shifting here is your attempt to pass off complex and temporary workarounds intended for developers as resulting in a device that is somehow the same as jailbroken devices. This is incorrect for the obvious reasons pointed out already.

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with jailbreak and didn't know apps installed via jailbreak don't need to be constantly renewed and resigned? Installing apps long term is still something you can't do, as I originally said.

Attempting to pass off a lesser solution that doesn't come close to matching what I originally mentioned and pretending it is the same is dishonest and disingenuous.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by jsjohnst on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @03:24PM (#27988502)
Please show me where I was wrong in anything I said. I've shown conclusively that your statement quoted above was wrong, nothing you said here says anything other than you are angry and want to lash out.

> Perhaps you are unfamiliar with jailbreak

Considering I wrote one of the first high traffic'd jailbreaking guides for iOS and have been involved in the JB scene in various capacities (never a key role admittedly) since the very beginning, I'm pretty sure that isn't the case. ;)

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by dpedu on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @07:42PM (#27991133)
That's pretty easy - please re-read my previous comment as it quite clearly mentions the disconnect you're not picking up:

> your attempt to pass off complex and temporary workarounds

> apps installed via jailbreak don't need to be constantly renewed and resigned?

I'm surprised someone who claims to be involved in the scene so long would overlook such an obvious difference.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by jsjohnst on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @08:11PM (#27991321)
The continued ad hominem is a clear indication you don’t want to have an honest debate and rather just want to pick a fight, so have a nice day!
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by dpedu on Monday July 26, 2021 @08:10PM (#27967104)
That's true but becoming a developer is outside what's being discussed here. Non-developers jailbreak too. Let alone the extra expense and equipment besides the phone itself you're going to need.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by jsjohnst on Monday July 26, 2021 @09:11PM (#27967497)
> That's true but becoming a developer is outside what's being discussed here.

Pure anecdata, but the vast majority of folks I see talking about AltStore outside HN are not developers. YMMV!

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by Dig1t on Monday July 26, 2021 @04:46PM (#27965228)
As unpopular as I think this opinion is, I can't help but agree. If you want a hackable phone there are literally thousands of different Android phones that you can buy for a fraction of the price that you can tweak/hack to your heart's content.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by jonny_eh on Monday July 26, 2021 @05:38PM (#27965833)
But none work with Apple Watches, nor do they work with iMessage.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by haswell on Monday July 26, 2021 @10:27PM (#27967951)
There’s a saying about cake that seems to apply here.

Again, there are other options for both. Android wear devices are still a thing, and there are multiple options that aren’t SMS that are available to the Android ecosystem.

If you want to live in the Apple ecosystem, that comes with some tradeoffs. Can’t have it both ways.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by sudosysgen on Monday July 26, 2021 @11:40PM (#27968364)
Actually, there isn't. It's perfectly possible to be able to have a process to request bootloader unlocks from Apple, and also be able to use the ecosystem.

The entire point of the saying that you can't have your cake and eat it too is that, well, it can't be both in your hands and in your stomach. But it's perfectly possible for me to be able to call Apple and get a bootloader unlock code, without any other change to anything.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by haswell on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @09:56AM (#27972493)
The general point behind the proverb boils down to "you can't have it both ways" or "you can't have the best of two worlds".

That's essentially what the parent comment is trying to do. When offered the Android ecosystem as an alternative, the counterpoint was to lament the lack of Apple Watch and iMessage support in the Android ecosystem.

This is textbook "I want it both ways".

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by jonny_eh on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @01:30PM (#27975110)
While it's literally impossible to have cake and to have eaten it, it's not impossible to have a good phone and a hackable one, in a single device.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by haswell on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @07:06PM (#27978680)
The cake thing was in response to you wanting Apple Watch and iMessage…on Android.

This is the definition of wanting it both ways.

I don’t think anyone would argue that it’s technically impossible, but that should not be mistaken with “practically impossible” given Apple’s business model.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by jonny_eh on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @12:59PM (#27986051)
I don't want iMessage on Android, I want a hackable phone that supports iMessage too. I realize that's not really possible now, but it's not a logical impossibility, like being alive and dead at the same time.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by Stevvo on Monday July 26, 2021 @05:06PM (#27965478)
The key difference is with Android you can take responsibility for your own security if you choose; it's a Linux not so different to any other.

On iPhone you don't have that option, and you have no way of knowing if your phone was compromised.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by ValentineC on Monday July 26, 2021 @04:53PM (#27965318)
> I own my device without the need to root it, every feature in the brochure is available to me as a user.

I'm not able to sideload iOS apps easily (apart from using AltStore), or downgrade apps at all. This becomes possible with a jailbreak.

Also, with a jailbreak, I own my data. iOS (Android too, I believe) actively prevents some data from being backed up or copied otherwise.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by acdha on Monday July 26, 2021 @05:10PM (#27965526)
> Also, with a jailbreak, I own my data. iOS (Android too, I believe) actively prevents some data from being backed up or copied otherwise.

The primary area you see this is with applications which have flagged that data as sensitive so it won't be included on unecrypted backups (which includes iCloud). This is somewhat important for security — for example, you reasonably do not want TOTP seeds floating around invalidating your second factor security model — but it means you have a problem if an application you care about uses that feature in a way you don't anticipate.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by techrat on Monday July 26, 2021 @08:31PM (#27967245)
> Also, with a jailbreak, I own my data.

Also with a jailbreak, other people own your data too. A jailbreak is an exploit. A hammer can be used to drive in a nail (jailbreak) or it can be used to smash windows (malware.) Same tool in the end.

The very act of jailbreaking is what keeps your system vulnerable to the same exploits used by malicious actors.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by nojito on Monday July 26, 2021 @05:01PM (#27965414)
So get another phone.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by wizzwizz4 on Monday July 26, 2021 @05:05PM (#27965457)
How does this let you sideload iOS apps, or run older versions of them? That's like responding “just use Linux“ to a Windows user's complaint about Office.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by isodev on Monday July 26, 2021 @05:07PM (#27965486)
Sideloading apps is not a feature of iOS. It is also illegal unless the app explicitly allows it in their license. If you need to be able to side load apps, you need a device intended for this purpose.

Regarding data, all user data on iOS is backed up either through iCloud and/or on your Mac.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by aj3 on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @08:45AM (#27971740)
Well, some people want to have root access to study iOS internals, debug software, look for forensic artefacts and unknown vulnerabilities.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by JackGreyhat on Monday July 26, 2021 @04:52PM (#27965302)
> I understand that around the 90s owning anything with an OS also implied the ability to mess with the box of bolts and circuits that run the OS but that’s no longer the case. At least not when it comes to phones.

Incorrect. It is still the case with nearly all Android phones. You can install any OS version, gain full permissions, mess with kernels, modules, frameworks, recoveries, ...

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by acdha on Monday July 26, 2021 @05:12PM (#27965554)
You mean all of the people I see complaining about locked bootloaders are mistaken?
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by JackGreyhat on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @04:39PM (#27977319)
Thats because they bought a locked version, such as most carrier models.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by 14 on Monday July 26, 2021 @05:08PM (#27965500)
I use my device to scratch my nose who is anyone to tell me how to use my device after I purchase it? A jailbroken iPhone has been useful in so many ways over the years. Currently I am not jailbroken but wish I was just to see all the cool mods I could have access too. There are so many useful tools it blew my mind all the missing features Apple left out. Hell when I bought the phone Rogers sold me a video messaging plan. Sure was surprised to learn the original iPhone didn’t even have native video recording. I was however able to jailbreak and download Cycorder and suddenly I could use my device not as it was intended I guess but super useful to me. Your point of view seems so narrow minded to me.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by clairity on Monday July 26, 2021 @05:27PM (#27965720)
> "It's too bad on iOS Apple forces people to choose between security and control of their own systems..."

moreover, one of the critical vulnerabilities from a user's perspective is the network connections that a device makes, nominally on behalf of the user, but really on behalf of privacy-forsaking data harvesters like google and facebook (and even apple themselves, to a certain extent).

jailbreaking is one method users can (potentially) regain a modicum of control over their own private information as well as block exfiltration from exploited security vulnerabilities.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by jsjohnst on Monday July 26, 2021 @07:22PM (#27966729)
> one of the critical vulnerabilities from a user's perspective is the network connections that a device makes, nominally on behalf of the user, but really on behalf of privacy-forsaking data harvesters like google and facebook

Apple provides APIs now on stock iOS to allow an app to use a “VPN profile” to implement a firewall blocking outbound connections, but without requiring a remote server (aka the app applies rules locally to outbound connections). The downside is you have to trust Apple to pass their own traffic through the app’s firewall unlike with a JB, but at least that covers the other examples you gave.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by refulgentis on Monday July 26, 2021 @03:12PM (#27963926)
taking note of multiple comments mentioning Pegasus, wanted to flag on the top one: this is very unlikely to be a fix for it.

- reported by anonymous researcher

- if it is related, this would be the 2nd of 2 bugs that would need fixing. The first is the 0-click escape hatch from the Messages sandbox to calling functions on IOMobileFramebuffer

- there is only one bug listed for this release, and it is unlikely Apple would publicly flag #2 of 2 bugs was fixed, but not #1

- extremely tight timeframe from press reports of _a_ bug to a fix deployed, I'd like to think you could get a week turnaround on that, but...in practice, at BigCo, that timeframe would require moving heaven and earth, and yet still choosing to be irresponsible by skipping most of the gates on the release process

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by saagarjha on Monday July 26, 2021 @06:59PM (#27966541)
IMTranscoderAgent possesses the necessary entitlements
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by radley on Monday July 26, 2021 @03:17PM (#27964015)
> it is unlikely Apple would publicly flag #2 of 2 bugs was fixed, but not #1

It's very possible Apple doesn't want to verify that Messages was compromised, particularly if they can blame everything on something obscure.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by ComputerGuru on Monday July 26, 2021 @03:24PM (#27964126)
There isn’t a separate “messages” from anything else, that’s an illusion Apple marketing encourages. iOS is a shared-tenancy, general-purpose operating system. A vulnerability in any of the core libraries can affect any of the apps (first party or otherwise) and a hostile or compromised application (first party or otherwise) can compromise the entirety of the device and its data.

Whether something is a Messages vulnerability or “something obscure” is just marketing spin.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by kall on Monday July 26, 2021 @05:51PM (#27965934)
I think the important part is any person can force data onto your device via messages. If that is exploitable, it‘s a huge oroblem. That‘s why people care.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by kmeisthax on Monday July 26, 2021 @03:14PM (#27963955)
AFAIK the current exploitable firmware for jailbreaking is 14.3 and I'm genuinely surprised that all these exploits for later versions aren't trickling down into Taurine or unc0ver.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by jbarrs on Monday July 26, 2021 @03:41PM (#27964373)
They probably are, and this bug may already have been known. Many jailbreaks are often held back for as many versions as possible, since that can allow the jailbreak to target more iOS versions with a single exploit without Apple quickly blocking it for future versions.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by kmeisthax on Monday July 26, 2021 @04:14PM (#27964814)
I guess that retroactively justifies my decision to keep my iOS devices on 14.5 at least...
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by isodev on Monday July 26, 2021 @04:38PM (#27965130)
That really doesn’t sound very ethical though. An exploit can literally put people in danger. Holding back on reporting just so a few enthusiasts can fiddle with parts of their phone nobody intended for them to use is plain irresponsible… even antisocial.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by Matheus28 on Monday July 26, 2021 @05:19PM (#27965639)
If Apple gave people control over their own hardware, these enthusiasts wouldn't have an incentive to hold onto those exploits
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by npteljes on Monday July 26, 2021 @04:50PM (#27965279)
Jailbreaking is a bug, not a feature. These people need to realize the abusive relationship they have with their phone company and need to decide which way to go forward. Apple never promised to support jailbroken phones, they heavily and openly police modifications from the get-go.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by wallacoloo on Monday July 26, 2021 @05:15PM (#27965583)
> These people need to realize the abusive relationship they have with their phone company and need to decide which way to go forward.

What’s the alternative? I’ve got a Pinephone coming in the mail — which I ordered precisely because of these sort of disagreements between me and Apple/Google — but I really doubt it’ll be useful for anything away from home (GPS, photos, etc).

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by npteljes on Monday July 26, 2021 @05:55PM (#27965981)
No real alternative currently, as I see it. The main ones track the hell out of you, dark pattern galore, Pine and the other Linux phones are simply not 1.0 yet, and I count AOSP derivatives as aftermarket solutions, because they don't have the engineering power to continue developing the fork, either the AOSP or the hardware, should it come to that. There isn't really a best choice.

I personally opted for an older Samsung flagship, LineageOS without G services, and my own cloud at home. And I'm not counting on this being sustainable to be honest. I might go more Stallman later, buy dumber devices with lots of tradeoffs or just give in to the zeitgeist, and buy the shiniest tracking chip.

Edit: Kudos for getting the Pine - putting the money where the mouth is something that has at least the potential to change.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by Siira on Thursday July 29, 2021 @05:04AM (#27994373)
Android is not that open, either. Running background jobs on Android is severely restricted.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by throwaway4good on Monday July 26, 2021 @02:53PM (#27963629)
A lot of people don't update or don't update immediately.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by eruleman on Monday July 26, 2021 @03:46PM (#27964437)
that's what the emoji's are for.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by imoverclocked on Monday July 26, 2021 @04:53PM (#27965310)
iOS updates are generally pretty well adopted in comparison to other platforms. [1] [2] For reference, iOS 13 was released Sept 19, 2019 [3]

[1] https://9to5mac.com/2020/06/19/apple-says-ios-13-is-now-runn...

[2] https://developer.apple.com/support/app-store/

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOS_version_history#iOS_13_/_i...

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by colejohnson66 on Monday July 26, 2021 @03:53PM (#27964527)
By default, iOS automatically installs updates after a few days
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by swiley on Monday July 26, 2021 @11:21PM (#27968261)
Many people disable this because:

1) it's really annoying to have your crap moved around without being asked

2) it's often the only way to retain control of your device.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by ubercow13 on Monday July 26, 2021 @04:06PM (#27964688)
Not if you don't use wifi. In fact it is impossible to install security updates without wifi.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by criddell on Monday July 26, 2021 @05:32PM (#27965775)
If you never connect your phone to the internet, you probably don't need to worry about security updates.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by ubercow13 on Monday July 26, 2021 @05:36PM (#27965817)
I am constantly connected to cellular internet, so I probably do.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by jaywalk on Monday July 26, 2021 @04:16PM (#27964832)
This is 100% incorrect. Updates can be installed via a wired connection to iTunes running on a PC or Mac or over 5G cellular data.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by dylan604 on Monday July 26, 2021 @04:37PM (#27965115)
Right, but you're missing the point that you have to do that intentionally. You're not going to bed at night with iOS 14.x and wake up with iOS 14.x+ because your cable connected itself to the laptop and ran the update. It will however do this if you are on wifi. This is the point the GP felt was not necessary to expand.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by ubercow13 on Monday July 26, 2021 @05:03PM (#27965434)
Thank you for the correction, my PC isn't supported by iTunes and my iPhone doesn't support 5G so I never knew this. I guess I have to buy a new $1000 phone to get this artibrary restriction lifted.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by vxNsr on Monday July 26, 2021 @07:41PM (#27966895)
What OS are you using that doesn’t support iTunes?
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by luke2m on Monday July 26, 2021 @10:46PM (#27968070)
Linux, or another non macos *nix probably.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by vxNsr on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @12:13AM (#27968527)
Apple never came out with an iTunes Linux client? Wow!

Still you have options, load windows in a vm (hint: ms releases a fully functioning vm image every month that works for all major hypervisors). Install iTunes and you’re all set.

Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by iaml on Monday July 26, 2021 @04:20PM (#27964911)
Some of the updates can't be installed via cellular for some reason.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by jaywalk on Monday July 26, 2021 @04:28PM (#27965014)
Can you link to any proof of that? I haven't seen it.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by iaml on Monday July 26, 2021 @04:36PM (#27965108)
I just had to connect to wifi for the update to start, the button was greyed out. If you don't trust me on this, I can send you a screenshot when this happens.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by jaywalk on Monday July 26, 2021 @04:47PM (#27965245)
Do you have the "Allow More Data on 5G" option selected? iOS updates will not be allowed otherwise.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by iaml on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @09:11AM (#27971978)
Wait a second, yesterday I misread your comment, is this only available on 5G and not below? What is the reasoning for gating it to newer phones and countries that have that infrastructure, considering my pixel has no issues updating over 4G?
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by jaywalk on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @10:05AM (#27972600)
Apple has an agreement with the carriers to not allow iOS updates over pre-5G networks. Carriers used to be able to (possibly still can?) disable things like FaceTime over cellular too.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by iaml on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @11:45AM (#27973798)
What a shitty thing to do, but thanks for the info.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by bamboo2 on Monday July 26, 2021 @07:36PM (#27966848)
That’s the point.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by jaywalk on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @10:05AM (#27972608)
What's the point? The post I replied to used the word "impossible" and I pointed out that it's absolutely not impossible.
Re:About the security content of iOS 14.7.1 and iPadOS 14.7.1 by varispeed on Monday July 26, 2021 @05:46PM (#27965896)
What if the exploit has been used by governments? Surely they should give time or offer alternative way of gaining entry?