- Quick chats, like answering your name at Starbucks, talking with the electric company on the phone, etc. I use directly the English pronunciation of my name (like Jamie). It's faster, easier and who cares, frankly... Gratefully, I can now use "wrote as Lanister" and fix some writing problems
- With more meaningful relationships, like coworkers or acquaintances that I will be talking several times, etc, the only thing that I care about is an honest try. Most people tends to have problems with the ending vowel, and the initial "hard H" sound, so it sounds more like "Hi-me", but that's absolutely no problem. Different languages have different sounds, and I mispronounce things all the time. All I care about it's the other person putting a bit of effort into it, but that's about it...
If you ever bought into this idea that mispronouncing someone's unfamiliar/foreign name is somehow rude or racist or an extension of white supremacy/privilege, you should see how english names and surnames are pronounced in non-english speaking countries. People give it their best shot and fail, that's all there is to it.
Of course there's also names that have transformed to nearly unrecognizable forms; George over here has evolved into Sjors (or the other way around?), John into Sjon, etc.
The "J" consonant leads to many interesting things because of how many pronounciations it has. It can be an english "J" or the softer latin "J" (identical to an I) or an in between Y which could be between an english J and SH. In current spanish, however, the J is pronounced as the "voiceless velar fricative"[1] (a very strong H?), so whilst the name started sounding like "Iacobo", it's now a very firm HHakobo.
Ah it turns out that may not be true, though widely believed for the last couple of centuries:
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Diego#Spanish
The one that shocked me the most was the number of different names that I associated with different countries that all turned out just to be variations on John.
Ivan, Ian, Euan, Hans, Sean, Jens, Juan, Yiannis, Giovanni, Evan, Ifan, Janko, Ivanko and many more
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_(given_name)#In_other_l...
That's a fun one here in the US. My employer has an office in Romania, so many of my coworkers have names that start with an I for the voiced palatal approximant sound. These names would start with a J in English, have the I in Romanian, and are pronounced (more or less) like an English "y" sound. For example, Julian -> Iulian, approximately pronounced Yoo-lee-an. For extra complication for those in the States, many default fonts show minimal differences between a capital I and a lower-case L, so some people read it as Loo-Lee-An.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_palatal_approximant
And then don't get me started on us Americans trying to understand the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-comma
E.g. people from the Czech Republic or Slovakia named Ján, Juraj, Michal might become John, George, Michael.
Slovak and Czech sometimes use back-translated exonyms for place names. E.g. Lawrence is Vavrinec. Thus "St. Lawrence River" is called "Rieka svätého Vavrinca".
https://sk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rieka_sv%C3%A4t%C3%A9ho_Vavrin...
should also add Ya'Qov and Ya'a'Quov, are fairly interchangeable
¡Gracias!
(Feel free to ignore of course, I just got interested.)
It will definitely be much easier for spaniards to pronounce the english version of Vincent than the french. We probably have the worst french pronounciation in Europe despite the fact that we're neighbours! I always chuckle with how some people pronounce croissant: "curasan" (an attempt to transliterate as "cruasan", I believe).
But thanks! I'll probably stick to the English Vincent then, as I'm not sure Vicente would trigger a response from me if I'm not paying attention, but maybe if I ever get to spend a longer time in a Spanish-speaking community I might give Vicente a try.
Fun fact, I can't type hardwood without great effort.
Sort of. I’d speculate that those who care about it the most are people who’ve never struggled and failed to pronounce a name in another language. In my limited experience of knowing 3 languages I never had trouble with any pronunciation. So I came to the unfounded conclusion that a. I can pronounce anything and b. everyone should pronounce everything correctly and if they don’t, it’s for lack of effort.
I was wrong. I learned this while learning how to pronounce Chinese names. I thought I was saying them right. For example I’d pronounce “Xi” as “Shi”. But it wasn’t the right Shi, evidently (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion-Eating_Poet_in_the_Ston...). My friend sat with me patiently as I attempted it over and over. Every time she’d say “no, not Shi, it’s more like Shi”. I couldn’t hear the difference. So even if I put in more time, I wouldn’t succeed.
So now I’m more tolerant of people making mistakes. As long as they make an effort, it’s good enough.
If anyone would like a challenge, try pronouncing the word “Tamil” from the language Tamil. I haven’t heard anyone who wasn’t a native speaker pronounce it correctly.
As for learning to distinguish X from Sh, and the Ch/J/Zh/Q and C/Z distinctions in Mandarin, I think your beliefs may have swung too far from one pole to the other. It took me six or seven years to learn to pronounce American English [ɹ] correctly, and I made lots of hearing errors during that time as well. It can take time to learn to hear phonetic differences. Unsurprisingly you weren't able to learn the difference between [ɕ] and [ʂ] in a single fifteen-minute session, but if you'd done two fifteen-minute sessions a day for two years, you'd almost certainly get it. In fact, you might find that it only takes you a few weeks!
You're right though. I could probably get Chinese pronunciation correct given enough time and effort. but it's not trivial, like I thought earlier.
(non-Tamil here) Off the top of my head I can think of at least two distinct ways I have heard native Tamils speakers pronounce the name, and both are convinced that they are correct. Plenty of Tamils pronounce it with a retroflex 'r', while a majority consider it archaic and pronounce it with a retroflex 'l'.
The ழ was originally kind of a retroflex 'r' sound, but many Tamils consider it archaic & pronounce it as similar to a retroflex 'l' ள் - when questioned a native Tamil speaker from Tamil Nadu told me that ள் and ழ are pronounced the same.
Consider the word வாழை பழம் (banana), with two retroflex 'r' sounds. I have heard people pronounce it with both (and how its retained in Malayalam), and many will change one of them to a retroflex 'l'. In my restricted sample of asking a handful of native speakers to say the word, at least one consistently changed both to a retroflex 'l'.
So when I'm with non-Cantonese speaking people, I go by a random Anglo name I picked for myself decades ago. Honestly, I feel more attached to that name than any non-Cantonese pronunciation of my legal name.
It gets annoying when some well meaning people insist that they must learn how to pronounce my "real name", it leaves me two choices:
A) Lie and say that their attempt is good, and resign to never knowing if they're calling me for the rest of time, or
B) Repeat it dozens of time until they give up, and sometimes have them complain that they never encountered those sounds in their Chinese 101 class...
So while I think it's good to make an effort to pronounce names correctly, it's probably better to give up after a few honest attempt, if the person you are addressing don't mind.
I've watched as people did as you described where they spend an inordinate amount of net time (it usually occurs in fragments, such as at the beginning of a meeting) trying to get someone's name "right". When I let people do this, instead of just opting for my very American first name, it almost always felt like I was watching a parody of my last name play out in real time. I didn't put too much thought into it, but holy hell does it get old. I don't like being in the spotlight and wokeism is already very offputting to me.
If you find yourself doing this, consider this: I have a weird name and I don't remember people's names very well at all. I remember faces, experiences, and feelings much more. You'll get my name right over time as you hear people around me say it. That's just fine with me.
Some other usecases:
- prevents hero worship in software (eg: I'm an x-Googler, believe me)
- might put a dent in bigotry based identity issues
Well, the French usage for names generally is just to use either a straight French pronunciation based on how the name is written, or an approximation of the foreign pronunciation using sounds that exist in French. Only a handful of well-known names get to have a special pronunciation.
If your family has been in France for 100 years, I wouldn't say they pronounce the name "incorrectly", they just pronounce it the correct way in France.
It was common knowledge nearby that anyone who came in and pronounced it "ver-sai" was from out of town. Because everyone living there called it "ver-sails".
I use this as an example of how if anyone gets to decide how something is pronounced, it's the people who live there. The city is simply called "ver-sails" and that's all there is to it.
It is not "wrong", anymore than pronouncing it as you likely say "karate" is not more wrong than "ka-ra-te" (the japanese pronunciation) or that the japanese prounciation of the english word "sweater" being "su-we-ta" is wrong. Borrowed word pronunciation is entirely up to the user.
I also love the double mind-fuck of "karaoke":
EN: pronounced "owe-kee"
JP: "oh-keh"!
EN: but "oke" comes from the English "orchestra" (kara-oke = empty orchestra)… so really should be pronounced "or-keh"? Are we mispronouncing a Japanese mispronounciation of OUR OWN WORD??
(and then of course the Greeks chime in, OG)
Detroit would be the same way if it wasn't such a big city. Easier to see when you add back the accent, Détroit.
Yes! This is why I’m not the least bit offended when someone mispronounces my name.
It takes me about 5 minutes to Google names I'm unfamiliar with before I start a new class to make sure I get it right. I don't know and I should not be expected to know Chinese, but I think I should be expected to be polite enough to try to get it right before I take a stab and butcher someone's name.
I don't think it is an enormous burden to put on myself, and I don't think I'm performatively self-flagellating by doing it. I think it's just me trying to be polite. I think everyone should try to be polite in as many contexts as possible.
On another context of names:
My own names are Hebrew and Germanic respectively, two syllables each. My given name is common in North America. Most people pronounce it wrong anyway. I would greatly prefer if they didn't. It's a little disrespectful. I politely correct people and then find most of the same people make the same mistake again and again. I find it disrespectful, the same way I find it disrespectful if someone spells my name wrong even though my email address is first@last. It's not because they're frothing at the mouth racists, it's because they're minorly inconsiderate.
My wife has a common name with two English spellings (let's say similar to Meghan/Megan). People frequently misspell it. She's not bothered by people guessing wrong. She is bothered when she corrects them and they still get it wrong. When I met her, it's not like I cosmically knew which of the two spellings was correct. I simply learned which of the two spellings was correct. It was a basic act of politeness and care. When people don't do it, it comes off like they don't care.
The world is globalized, it's not expected as a norm to be able to pronounce every name properly.
My name isn't in "English" and I grew up in the USA. The people whom act like you when I introduce myself and talk are the most annoying. I don't have any onus on everyone pronouncing my name properly and if they say it with English phonetics then that's acceptable because they're trying to adapt their language to my name.
That is much more polite then having this internal monologue and judging/having bias to everyone else that they're "inconsiderate."
Just ask how to pronounce if you can't, read the room and then apologize if it needs to be said.
Loosen up.
There is a very good chance that your correction is coming off as inconsiderate since it is interrupting the flow of conversation and perhaps even the other person's train of thought. That interruption is also going to affect how well they remember the correction. If they were unprepared for an off-topic interjection, it is probable that they didn't hear what was being said or it did not register in their memory.
So yes, getting people's names correct is important. On the other hand, letting people get your name is important (rather than forcing the issue).
To be honest, this seems as one of the worst ways to handle such situations. Feeling distraught over an imprecise pronunciation feels like something to get rid of rather than accepting as a norm.
And I am saying this as someone with a slight speech impediment using one of the more consonant cluster-rich languages on the continent. I would have to be delusional to expect someone from an English-speaking country to pronounce names such as Grzegorz Brzęczyszczykiewicz on first or even second try.
Also, how do you decide which names are common? Not trying to be rude, but this can easily depend on from where someone is coming from and their age/generation. Names popular in the generation of my grandparents sometimes are completely absent from my own and rarely written down.
This all also comes with the prerequisite that a person in question still uses the original pronunciation and not one adapted to the dominant language in the region.
If you want an analogue, think of Muhammad Ali. Arabic name, non-Arabic pronunciation.
That said, I certainly wouldn’t get upset at the effort. I’d assume you mean well, so no foul. It’s just not that important.
I wouldn't want to put that on anyone to explain when obviously I can just get more foreign language tapes, but I do actually legitimately prefer to get it right if I can, and the process of learning to say it right is super fun... but I've spent my whole life having to spell and pronounce my name for everyone so it just doesn't seem like a big deal.
But yeah, I can see it getting annoying. I definitely wouldn't insist on it over a casual "<foo> is fine" but I do want to learn to do better at things if I can!
And to avoid being called "go-go" of course.
This. My name is a whimsical permutation of a Monacan name but I’m south Asian so it confuses the heck out of people. So I just go by Ray, which frankly is kind of a sketchy name, like “Trent” or “Chad.” But it’s easy to pronounce.
It’s no big deal! Why would I take offense when an American who is often mispronouncing his own French, German, or Polish family name mispronounces mine? (Sorry, Mr. Koch, your name is “Cock” not “Coke.”)
Because that sounds pretty 'woke' to me, and you seem to be attacking people for trying to be woke and annoying you in the process.
I just worry that if someone attempts to make you happy by doing this, there will be an even smaller minority of people with hard to pronounce names and right-of-center political views who will be absolutely furious that the PC brigade (i.e. you) are trying to dictate what English speakers are allowed to make small talk about about in their own country, stifling free speech just in case some foreigner gets annoyed. Then they'll insist that English speakers should always do whatever their gut instinct tells them to even, no especially, if it annoys some oversensitive immigrant. Some people would much prefer to defend the noble principle of free speech than worry about something silly like wasting 5 mins in a meeting.
However, calling them "woke-posturing" in a disparaging way is a paradox if you prefer them to be aware of your opinions and experiences and change to better accommodate you as a member of an outgroup.
That's what "woke" means.
I had someone asking for a way to identify 'gender from the names of overseas customers'[1] on my problem validation platform. At a glance it seems like a similar problem and there could be some who doubt the veracity of the problem. Then there were several business solutions posted for that problem.
The same people who wanted to know the gender could probably also benefit from knowing how to pronounce the name if they ever get on a call or meet the person.
[1] https://needgap.com/problems/94-identifying-gender-from-a-na...
I gave my daughter a perfectly language neutral, 2 syllable, "a monkey can say it" name to avoid all this next generation :D
My opinion is just call me what you want as long as I know to respond to it.
The French language is perceived as refined and hard to get right. And France in general is very romanticized in American culture. Maybe it's less "woke respect" and little more curiosity than you think.
We can learn chai and yoga and namaste but not the names of the people it belongs to.
Seems more not wanting to make people uncomfortable which is fine, I have had to navigate the same.
When I come across a name I haven’t heard before, I just go out of my way to ask people how to pronounce their name and say it’s important to me. Sometimes demonstrating how to have the conversation of asking comfortably is the most important first step.
It's one thing to do a quick effort at it; you can ask "how do you say your name" real quick and let it go after a try. Or just try to catch how I'll introduce myself, and say it the same way.
On the other hand, some folks get hung up on pronouncing my name "properly" and get very annoying about it: "no no no I reaaally want to say your name properly, it's important _for me_". In a 30min meeting, I don't feel like spending 5 minutes giving a useless French pronunciation class for something so pointless. I much prefer hearing my name pronounced wrong by mistake, than wasting time in a useless woke-posturing session with someone using my time to teach them how to make sounds their mouth hasn't been trained to make, supposedly out of respect for my foreignness.