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Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by geff82 on Monday August 05, 2019 @02:20PM (#20616750)
I recently did vacation at the North Sea (land side, not the islands). It was heartbreaking. In many areas the iPhone showed "No Service", in most areas we had "Edge" connection with virtually no data throughput. Even when it showed "3G" I was mostly unable to use WhatsApp. And this is a region where people live!

And let's not talk about the landline broadband.... our rented appartment had a meager 1MBit download speed and 10MBit upload (yes, the reverse from what you would expect).

On the Autobahn, on many, many kilometers we had Edge only.

Compare that to my last travel to Iran: we had very fast LTE almost everywhere especially in the middle of the desert (it was heavily censored, but the infrastructure was working).

Even very close to big cities like Frankfurt, having an uninterrupted phone call is a difficult thing to have.

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by sc11 on Monday August 05, 2019 @02:55PM (#20617315)
> Even very close to big cities like Frankfurt, having an uninterrupted phone call is a difficult thing to have.

The German Minister for Economic Affairs has stopped taking calls with foreign colleagues during car trips because he was too embarassed by the constant interruptions...

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by nextos on Monday August 05, 2019 @05:39PM (#20619323)
I have had the same experience both in Germany and in some areas of the UK, like downtown Cambridge which was shocking.

In contrast, both Scandinavia and many parts of Southern Europe have great mobile and landline Internet. I guess it has something to do with the structure of the market before EU enforced massive privatizations.

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by flurdy on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @07:06AM (#20624076)
It is partly down to inept politicians and the concessions they dictated to the mobile networks.

In Norway, they demanded the networks cover 97% of the geographic areas. It's why you might get 3G or even 4G in the middle of nowhere, on top of a mountain, wherever you might drive.

However, in the UK the inept politicians demanded 97% of the population, not geographically.

So all the UK networks just built perfect coverage for all the cities and towns, and could mostly ignore everywhere else.

Which means even in the populous South East England whenever I drive slightly outside my town towards one of the bigger cities 20-30 minutes away I can not have a conversation in my car as the connection is always lost. Nor on the train into London. And also must be a nightmare for the small villages that fall outside the 97%.

(On the plus side whenever we go to the country pubs around here, I can not be reached, and noone can look at the phone during dinner...)

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by anoncake on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @08:02AM (#20624345)
> However, in the UK the inept politicians demanded 97% of the population, not geographically.

Which is completely backwards. You don't need mobile where you live (as long as you can get a landline), you need it everywhere else.

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by flurdy on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @12:32PM (#20626727)
Well I don't really know anyone that has a landline any more, so my correction would be you need it everywhere. Especially with 5G arriving soon.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by anoncake on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @01:33PM (#20627454)
Being able to get a landline != having a landline.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by close04 on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @03:46AM (#20623090)
Some Southern European countries still have pretty crappy internet overall - average to low for mobile, and really bad for landline (Italy, Greece, Croatia).

Eastern European countries mostly have great internet (especially landline, probably above average for mobile). I always assumed it must be because they came later to the party and went directly for modern technologies. As opposed to Germany who had telephone lines all over and then decided to get the most out of them because rebuilding with fiber would cost the companies too much.

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by vetinari on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @08:26AM (#20624490)
Eastern European countries are ...complicated.

The state-owned telcos were privatized in 90-ties, because the state is a bad owner, by ...state owned telcos from the west (Deutsche Telecom, Telefonica, etc). Of course, the first thing they tried was to move the obsolete equipment from their home countries to Eastern Europe for the price of a new one and for the money to get the new equipment in their home countries.

That didn't work out, because new competitors appeared, that built FTTH/Tripple Play networks from the scratch, with very low red tape at the time. That made the old DSL equipment not competetive in the cities (some even wanted to charge based on data transferred via DSLAM, making the flat-rate FTTH even better deal), so the ILECs had to do something with it - which meant to build their own FTTH network. DSLAMs were relegated to country side.

That's how Eastern Europe got fast and cheap fixed-line Internet in their cities. In the country, it is still mixed bag, better bet is LTE & 3G.

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by yxhuvud on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @09:31AM (#20624952)
That story isn't really the full story for some of the countries. For example, Romania had a really huge build it yourself boom (which have since consolidated into proper companies since, if I have understood it correctly) and at least for a while ended up with more people having fiber than running water.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by msiebuhr on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @12:22AM (#20622103)
AFAIK, most of the Danish cellphone infrastructure was built after TeleDanmark (now TDC) was privatized.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by terminalhealth on Monday August 05, 2019 @04:22PM (#20618509)
They also have a "Ministry of Transport and Digital Infrastructure" as if expertise in one domain would easily transfer to the other. The only commonality seems to be that things are being transported from A to B via some network, but it pretty much ends there.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by filmor on Monday August 05, 2019 @04:38PM (#20618662)
Oh, that's not really an issue, he shows very similar levels of incompetence in both areas.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by mschuster91 on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @06:03AM (#20623793)
His predecessors from CDU/CSU also. Infrastructure ministry is dominated by a history of politicians hellbent on kissing the automotive industry's butt...
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by phoenixdblack on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @07:52AM (#20624302)
I second this
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by disillusioned on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @03:18AM (#20622933)
Strictly speaking, aren't they both just series' of tubes? /s
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by afiori on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @07:31AM (#20624194)
Let's join also the ministry of health then! :)
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by luckydata on Monday August 05, 2019 @04:36PM (#20618639)
I think the money comes from the same budget, and it's both cases infrastructure. At the end of the day you don't need that much expertise to allocate funds, it's more about politics.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by brokenmachine on Monday August 05, 2019 @07:40PM (#20620463)
>you don't need that much expertise to allocate funds

You need expertise to allocate funds wisely however.

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by terminalhealth on Monday August 05, 2019 @05:08PM (#20618987)
Digital infrastructure is mostly privatized (and monopolized).
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by em-bee on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @10:15AM (#20625334)
it does kind of make sense if you consider that roads and rail lines are good places to put data cables, and that you have to dig up roads for the cables to be placed. so having the authority do do so within one ministry sounds like a good idea.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by terminalhealth on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @08:15AM (#20633952)
Fair point, but they do invoke this ludicrous metaphor of the data highway, also why isn't it then simply called "infrastructure". There are surely other large scale planning decisions that could be subsumed e.g. pipelines, power lines etc.; why would they not be mentioned?
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by hurrrrrrrr on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @08:50AM (#20624639)
Competence doesn't seem to be a requirement in these positions.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by KONAir on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @09:59AM (#20625209)
Ultimately they are both "realtime logistics" and the minister better have expertise in longterm public projects then either. But yea, sure they better be seperate.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by eurg on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @06:19AM (#20623873)
The infamous "Datenautobahn".
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by thaumasiotes on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @07:30AM (#20624188)
Sounds like a pretty close translation of the "information superhighway".
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by nesadi on Monday August 05, 2019 @02:27PM (#20616845)
The crazy thing I think is how expensive internet is, in whatever form, in Germany compared to the rest of Europe while simultaneously being so terrible.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by Matthias247 on Monday August 05, 2019 @05:25PM (#20619161)
Germany guy living in Canada at the moment: German internet now seems super cheap for me. I had UnityMedia for years. 120Mbit/s and unlimited home phone for 25€ per month. You can triple that sum for Canada (90$ plus tax) if you don’t get any special deal. And deals are annoying, since internet providers randomly increase their prices even if you are on a contract. So even if are not constantly out on the watch for the next deal and complain regularly at customer service you will simply pay a lot.

Besides that the Canadian plans are capped (E.g. at 1 TB/month even at high prices), whereas I never had a capped plan in Germany.

Mobile phone plans are even worse, without even talking about coverage.

So yes, Germany is not great, but it can be worse.

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by Scoundreller on Monday August 05, 2019 @09:50PM (#20621304)
And the article's graph proudly shows Canada having the 3rd fastest mobile speeds.

Oh great, I can go through my monthly allotment in 5 minutes by clicking on the wrong link. So useful.

I've turned off LTE just so I get a chance to cutoff a click that turns out to be a 300pg PDF.

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by Bombthecat on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @04:39AM (#20623381)
Yeah, I'm wondering the range. With 5g, imagine a typical limit in germany is 15gb. With 5g you blow though it within minutes in a bad scenario...

That's what they want... But still... A bad joke..

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by carlmr on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @02:59AM (#20622839)
I can attest to that, having stayed in Canada for 2 years. US is also expensive. Germany is dirt cheap, but slow.

When people say Germany is expensive to the rest of Europe I think they need to check the salary levels in the rest of Europe. German internet and cell is probably cheaper going by percentage of average income.

It's only the lack of coverage (and maybe the blocked YouTube videos) that bother me in Germany.

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by hannob on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @05:26AM (#20623622)
> When people say Germany is expensive to the rest of Europe I think they need to check the salary levels in the rest of Europe. German internet and cell is probably cheaper going by percentage of average income.

The nordic countries have higher salaries. It's really against the trend: Pretty much everything is more expensive in sweden and denmark, except Internet connectivity.

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by paule89 on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @02:57AM (#20622830)
Well german telecom tried to introduce caps into internet plans ~5 years ago at around 200GB. But that caused so much outrage, that they rolled back on that decision and ultimately you only get a cap on the cheapest of providers. I mean try downloading GTA5 and Red Dead Redemption for PS4/PC, and you have already used up your datacap.

Mobile Plans are so expensive, because we germans auction away the licenses for the Frequencies for billions.

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by yxhuvud on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @09:34AM (#20624975)
Compare that to the roughly 8€ I pay for gigabit connection for my apartment in Stockholm. Which is a better deal than normal since the deal is that the whole house also have it, without being able to opt out, but still.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by dx034 on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @02:08AM (#20622602)
Slow? Yes. Expensive? No.

I recently moved to Germany and now have 100mbit DSL for 25€/month (~$30) plus a phone contract with 6GB/month (more than enough since I have Wifi at home and work) including a phone flat for <€20/month. That's on par with the UK and cheaper than US and Canada.

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by IfOnlyYouKnew on Monday August 05, 2019 @02:31PM (#20616923)
It's far cheaper than the US. I get 6MB/s downloads for 15€/month. For mobile, there's a chart making the rounds on Twitter, and it seems to me Germany is very much in line with other countries. Of course it's more expensive than it is in poorer countries in eastern Europe, as everything is.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by lazyguy on Monday August 05, 2019 @02:49PM (#20617200)
For mobile I have unlimited 4G LTE for $55 dollars a month, including talk/text/etc. The 'real' cap is 60GB were they 'review your account for violations of terms and services'.

Just did a speed test and it's 31Mbps download and 4Mbps upload, but it varies wildly by location. But it's consistently fast enough that I can share out over Wifi from my cell phone so I can do my work and while my girlfriend watches youtube videos when we are travelling or the internet is down.

For home internet.. once it got faster then my wifi I stopped really caring a whole lot. 176Mbps on my last test.

If you are travelling in the USA as long as you stick to the interstate system you pretty much get mobile data the entire way. IF you drift onto smaller highways then that is when things get very spotty outside of metropolitan areas.

Verizon tends to have the best coverage in the mid-west. If I was travelling a lot in the boonies I would get a second data-only account on Verizon's network just to increase my chances of always having internet.

Although nowadays that is less and less necessary as every hotel and most restaurants have wifi. Just look for a Mcdonalds and you can get internet most of the time.

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by rxhernandez on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:52PM (#20618125)
> If you are travelling in the USA as long as you stick to the interstate system you pretty much get mobile data the entire way. IF you drift onto smaller highways then that is when things get very spotty outside of metropolitan areas.

This really depends on who you are using. When traveling between NorCal and SoCal, Sprint is basically garbage and Tmobile works decently for most of the trip.

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by icxa on Monday August 05, 2019 @04:29PM (#20618571)
I've experienced them all and across all various parts of the country. If you want to know what phone plan to get, just ask a trucker.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by oblongx on Monday August 05, 2019 @04:45PM (#20618734)
So, what phone plan should I get?
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by X-Istence on Monday August 05, 2019 @06:40PM (#20619927)
> If you are travelling in the USA as long as you stick to the interstate system you pretty much get mobile data the entire way. IF you drift onto smaller highways then that is when things get very spotty outside of metropolitan areas.

Stretches of road in Utah would like to have a word with you. Specifically I-70.

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by chewz on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @04:25AM (#20623294)
> Of course it's more expensive than it is in poorer countries in eastern Europe, as everything is.

We might be poorer but our telco operators pay market prices for equipment. Wages and land lease is also quite expensive. Financial cost is higher with rates and currency risk vs euro.

In Poland telco market had been skillfully and actively managed by regulator forcing constant investments in infrastructure and encouraging competition.

I pay 75€ per year for 1TB of mobile plan (calls ans SMS included).

https://biuroprasowe.orange.pl/blog/az-1-tb-danych-nielimito...

My parents broadband had been recently upgraded from 30Mbps to 150Mbps without any cost increase and without even asking for it. It is just the operator (UPC) trying to fend off competition (Orange, Netia). Cost is circa 10€ per month.

https://www.upc.pl/internet/kup-internet/

You can easily get 1Gbs in mayor cities.

Around the place where I live there is a lot of housing developments. Operators are racing to build the infrastructure and sign the clients even before the houses are finished.

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by aerique on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:45PM (#20618033)
I don't think the US is the country to compare against in this case.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by Wohlf on Monday August 05, 2019 @06:42PM (#20619949)
Despite all the griping on the internet, USA is consistently top 10 in broadband speed rankings, and costs are not that different from other countries.

https://www.speedtest.net/global-index

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by close04 on Monday August 05, 2019 @02:59PM (#20617374)
For a while in Germany I was paying 30€/month for 10Mbps. Meanwhile other EU countries gave you 1Gbps for ~10€/month. Germany is definitely at the lower end of internet infrastructure.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by masklinn on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @02:01AM (#20622569)
> Meanwhile other EU countries gave you 1Gbps for ~10€/month. Germany is definitely at the lower end of internet infrastructure.

This sounds like eastern europe pricing, western tends to be quite a bit higher. We're talking 20+ for DSL or "slow" fiber (100M or so), GB you won't get below 30+ or even 40~50 depending on the country.

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by heroic on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:23PM (#20617720)
This is probably the only thing I feel great about in the Indian communication domain! I pay <$2 a month for about 1.5GB 4G every DAY! Speeds generally vary from crap to 11 Mbps
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by denzil_correa on Monday August 05, 2019 @05:00PM (#20618898)
> I pay <$2 a month for about 1.5GB 4G every DAY! Speeds generally vary from crap to 11 Mbps

Of course. But, you have to take into account the Purchasing Power Parity (PPP) to get the true picture. According to OECD data, Germany's PPP is 0.76 while India's is 18.128 (2019). On an average, there's a factor of 23.85 until prices reach a parity between them. Therefore, just because you pay ~ 2$ a month doesn't make it cheap for India.

https://data.oecd.org/conversion/purchasing-power-parities-p...

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by vinay427 on Monday August 05, 2019 @06:32PM (#20619855)
Well, this difference exists between many EU countries and Germany as well, so I don't even think that's necessarily an apt comparison without some extra data.

(I'm referring to the comment which your comment was in response to, which I know you didn't post.)

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by pkaye on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:29PM (#20617813)
Is the 6MB/s or 6Mbps? Is that the average or minimum guaranteed?
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by blackflame7000 on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:33PM (#20617877)
Can you ever really have a minimum guaranteed speed when often times the limiting factor is the remote's ability to upload?
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by vetinari on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @08:34AM (#20624542)
At 6 MB/s, you won't hit that limit yet, with most services.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by pkaye on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:36PM (#20617904)
I guess atleast the speedtest numbers are high.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by nesadi on Monday August 05, 2019 @11:01PM (#20621718)
From what I've seen, compared to France, the UK and Austria, which aren't poorer countries, Germany still has comparatively expensive plans with less volume.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by magic_beans on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:44PM (#20618015)
What did Sweden get so right with internet that Germany got so wrong??
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by groundlogic on Monday August 05, 2019 @04:19PM (#20618462)
Looking back to the mid-to-late 90s, when this all started...

The government was all in, very early on. There was this giant tax deduction scheme in 1998 where every employed person had this opportunity to buy a computer to get online at like half price, since all the taxes (income tax, employment tax) were waived. I used that scheme to buy an outrageous $5k PC at "half price". (Dual Pentium 333 Mhz, Dual Voodoo2 - those are the specs I remember.)

Telia, the former Swedish monopoly telephony company did a surprisingly good job at bringing ADSL to people, quite early.

In parallel, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bredbandsbolaget was started, with the goal of providing high bandwidth connections to people. Cisco invested very, very heavily into this company, as well as a bunch of american pension funds. When I moved into an apartment in a mid-sized city in 2000, it had a 10 Mbit/s ethernet socket. I heard they invested so heavily, putting $1M routers into the basements of like 20-30 apartment buildings. Maybe that's why we got upgraded without an extra charge to 100 Mbit/s just a few years later. (It's now 250 Mbit/s, and we're still just paying $7/apartment/month in our co-op.)

It pains me a little to do so, but I credit the late 1990s social democratic government for the foresight to create the market by basically flooding the country with tax-free PCs.

And, oh, yeah, there was a lot of proactive fibre-laying going on, very early. Not quite sure how what happened. That backstory is probably quite important...

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by kalleboo on Monday August 05, 2019 @09:34PM (#20621206)
> Telia, the former Swedish monopoly telephony company did a surprisingly good job at bringing ADSL to people, quite early.

From my corner of Sweden, the privatization of Telia was what helped us - Skanova (the company formed to hold all of Telia's old copper assets) was required to upgrade any phone switching station to ADSL as long as someone would pay for it, so there were a bunch of rural ISPs formed that would do the legwork to gather enough customers to pay for small switching stations to be upgraded that Telia deemed unprofitable.

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by ckris on Monday August 05, 2019 @06:25PM (#20619795)
In Stockholm it was decided to connect all public housing, which was ~25% of the housing stock at the time. Owned apartments being coops, and presumably being able to make majority decisions, probably helped as well. That said, I don't think it is that impressive these days. Most digital or infrastructure things are very "1.5" compared to for example some parts of Asia.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by Moru on Monday August 05, 2019 @06:05PM (#20619568)
It was a lot about people interested in the domain. For example our local power company was tasked with digging down the central heating pipes in the whole town. One of the workers managed to talk management to pull fiber alongside the hotwater pipes between every house. Most of the town had central heating connected and together with that came the fiber. The town bought the fiber network a few years later.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by nisa on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:59PM (#20618225)
Quite a lot: In the 80ies in western germany the then responsible person at the ministry for postal issues (Postministerium) had family connections to a copper producer so everything was build with copper, besides at that time it was clear that there is no long-term future for the technology.

After reunification most areas in eastern germany were rebuild using fibre-optic but the system was a technical failure, too expensive to maintain as the last-mile was still copper mostly and hardware to translate was not available for too expensive - so no fast internet for most east german cities and villages until the mid-2000 as the state did not care anymore:

In the 90ies neoliberal privatisation wave, the privatisation of Bundespost created the Telekom AG that also got most of the infrastructure instead of playing it clever and keep infrastructure in state control like Sweden did and of course they have no incentive to invest in infrastructure because they want to generate profits and opening the ground is expensive - so copper it was again with fiber to the curb at the moment (VDSL) in most cities. The same idiocy was done with the Bundesbahn (rails) - instead of keeping the infrastructure in public hand it was given to the new Bahn AG that destroyed most of it in an insane effort to go public (I'm not joking, destroying trains to avoid having to sell them to the competition, stopping to service rail-tracks to spare some money... the problems are still felt)...

Telekom now behaves much the same way: Unfortunatly they are asshats and when another rural ISP or fibre ISP develops a city the Telekom comes shortly after and attempts to kill their profit instead of doing something about underdeveloped areas. Also the regulators failed to open their new VDSL lines for the market, so you'll have to pay their premium prices.

So that's it for landlines.

I learned that Sweden did the clever thing and build the fiber-infrastructure with public money only once and ISPs can rent the lines and compete with services / price but there is a fiber line to your home.

I don't know about mobile market in Sweden but in Germany there was a huge auction on the start of the 3G technology that cost most ISPs billions of euros for licences, this money is missing and the result are higher rates and less coverage.

Besides that there are 3 big corpoorations having 3 distinct networks (with no roaming, even in sparse areas) - Telefonica with the most budget prices and most users but only good coverage in bigger cities and basically non-existent 4G in rural areas, Vodafone (better, depending were you are) and Deutsche Telekom (best coverage but far from perfect)

Regulators did nothing and so the shitshow goes on....

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by cc81 on Monday August 05, 2019 @04:15PM (#20618412)
You had a similar spectrum auction with 5G recently and that got very expensive as well. That seems to be a problem in a lot of Europe and something the hardware providers like Ericsson complains about as that hinders the service providers ability to buy things from them because they spend so much money on the auction.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by nesadi on Monday August 05, 2019 @11:07PM (#20621749)
It's telling that only the four biggest providers in Germany were able to take part in the auction because of how expensive it is. Not a lot of companies can throw billions at some spectrum before even building any towers or other infrastructure. It really distorts the market and makes it far less competitive.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by groundlogic on Monday August 05, 2019 @04:29PM (#20618574)
The difference between Sweden and Germany in terms of RF spectrum license auctions has typically been:

Sweden goes for "beauty auctions" - a balance between coverage and government revenue.

Germany goes for government revenue alone.

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by dylz on Monday August 05, 2019 @04:58PM (#20618873)
I have not had fun with DTAG - they seem to adamantly refuse to peer like most other networks and demand additional cost for bandwidth requested by their users..
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by nisa on Monday August 05, 2019 @06:39PM (#20619920)
Yes, their peering policy was and still is? infamous for being vile. They even had no ports at de-cix for a long time. However as ISP regarding reliability and technological improvement they are pretty good but they won't and/or can't build new fiber infrastructure and try to make the existence for competition in this space difficult...

Politics has no good ideas and mostly follows their wishes (as with subsidiaries for copper/fiber to the curb) probably because costs for fiber to the home would be way worse - so we'll stay at 16mbit (most villages) /50mbit (if you are lucky) /250mbit (innercity / dense population districts)

Cable market is owned mostly by Vodafone and a total mess due to being crazily overbooked in most cities...

But it's not so bad, for 40-50€ you can get 100/40mbit in a lot of places

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by LargoLasskhyfv on Monday August 05, 2019 @11:40PM (#20621924)
Triple A rating as in absolute arrogant assholes. Not every single one of them, but enough. "Beamtenmentalität" (bureaucratic mentality).
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by lrem on Monday August 05, 2019 @06:43PM (#20619957)
My bandwidth regressed some 60x upon moving to France from Poland.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by arvinsim on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @03:17AM (#20622926)
I thought that Germany(or at least Berlin) has become a IT hub. How could that happen with bad connections?
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by close04 on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @10:40AM (#20625553)
Averages can be deceiving. Plenty of places in Berlin and Germany have great internet connections. The problem is that for every 1Gbps link there are 20 5Mbps links and the average will still show up as a decent 50+Mbps. ("decent" meaning you can get by just fine for most activities an average consumer would perform).
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by not_a_cop75 on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:28PM (#20617806)
I'll get hate for this, but whenever things like cell service are suddenly shared with millions of people more, the connectivity is stressed out. Companies like AT&T spend at least 1.5 years from the planning of a tower to it's completion, so reliable growth models are required.

Sudden population influxes produce problems.

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by ceejayoz on Monday August 05, 2019 @04:02PM (#20618256)
You're trying to cram a square peg into a round hole here.

Germany's growth rate in 2018 was 0.3%. The birth rate was 9.5/k versus a death rate of 11.3/k as of 2017, and the fertility rate been below replacement rate since the 1970s.

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by not_a_cop75 on Monday August 05, 2019 @04:55PM (#20618833)
Censored
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by ceejayoz on Monday August 05, 2019 @05:08PM (#20618989)
> It looks like Germany's population grew by over 20 million just recently.

Uh, that'll be the fall of the Soviet Union adding ~16M East Germans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_reunification

> Some countries don't even have a census every year

You don't need a census to get a population count. Governments definitely keep records of births/deaths, as well as immigration. Your own link provides population numbers for every year from 1900 through 2018.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany#Statis...

> Facts are so unpopular.

Indeed.

German population in 1998: 82,024,000.

German population in 2018: 83,000,000.

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by erichocean on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @02:26AM (#20622694)
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by ceejayoz on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @09:35AM (#20624991)
I don't doubt Germany has continued to take in refugees, but we're not comparing like-to-like here; they're different population estimates, as the 2018 number in your link differs from that in mine.

The point remains: Germany has almost the same population it had 20 years ago. Blaming internet troubles on rapid population expansion is clearly false.

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by rconti on Monday August 05, 2019 @05:02PM (#20618923)
By what measure is Germany's growth in population large? I get that 1 year is too short. Give us an example where it looks like it's growing fast. We'll wait.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by NewsAware on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:38PM (#20617938)
Are you talking about refugees??
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by indalo on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:53PM (#20618145)
I think that is what just happened...
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by not_a_cop75 on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:56PM (#20618174)
Censored
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by pmjordan on Monday August 05, 2019 @04:43PM (#20618714)
Perhaps you'd like to explain how people driving through the country, or anyone else in fact, drives down ADSL speeds to single-digit or low tens of Mbit/s. Or indeed how population fluctuations of about 1-2% might cause cellular networks to develop dark patches or to regress from LTE to 3G or EDGE.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by not_a_cop75 on Monday August 05, 2019 @04:50PM (#20618768)
What if suddenly you have 30 times the number of people at every single internet cafe? Also people with less housing availability use their phones more on average not less, because making ideal housing arrangements on a daily to subdaily basis takes time. Willing to be wrong here but last time I looked, DSL was also driven by an oversubscription sales model, meaning they oversell the product and then try to keep ahead of the curve. Perhaps you've never been homeless so you don't realize these things.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @03:20AM (#20622945)
Just a suggestion: Do some actual math. It's really not that difficult to not look like a racist asshole if you bother to actually calculate the size of whatever effect you are hypothesizing exists to check whether it could possibly actually be a thing, as opposed to your prejudice leading you to nonsense conclusions.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by magic_beans on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:47PM (#20618062)
What on Earth are you talking about?
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by hef19898 on Monday August 05, 2019 @05:04PM (#20618950)
Oh, not just Iran. 10 years ago Cambodia had already better coverage than Germany. Either mobile or WiFi. Go figure... Positive thing in the Alps is you are quite often close enough to get coverage from Austria. No idea why it has to be that bad.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by sgt101 on Monday August 05, 2019 @02:55PM (#20617306)
ok 1Mb down and 10 up means that there is a high speed line - probably capable of 80Mb down which has a problem - my guess would be a shunt or interference (REIN). The provider should know this and should be able to locate and fix. But this is an service issue, not a delivery issue.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by m463 on Monday August 05, 2019 @07:18PM (#20620296)
couldn't it be 1) configured that way or 2) oversubscribed (or 1&2)
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by pry86 on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @02:11AM (#20622611)
Ha! It's enough to be 30 km away from Munich, and somewhere between the villages you might have no internet or edge only. It's disappointing.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by telcy on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @05:58AM (#20623773)
I grow up in Germany and can completely agree with you. The landline network is crappy in many areas and the mobile network is one of the worst I have seen (traveled to many countries). My parents recently got a 16MBit connection installed. Currently I am living in Thailand and their mobile network coverage is amazing. Even on an island or in the jungle you get LTE.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by dheera on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @03:07AM (#20622870)
Sure, but over here in California USA I routinely get no service at all Pretty much all of Skyline Boulevard, Route 1, large swaths of I-5 are big dead zones for me. All regional parks, state parks, national parks are dead too. I've had generally better cell service in Europe.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by hylaride on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @09:35AM (#20624990)
When I was visiting Germany 3 years ago, I bought a prepaid sim a second time from a 2nd company because the service was so mediocre. It didn't help. I was only in the major cities and I was lucky to get good 3G signal/speeds let alone LTE. It surprised me quite a bit. As a Canadian, where we pay extremely high rates for mobile, the signals and speeds are at least very good.

It was also surprising as I've had good service in France, UK, Belgium, Spain, UK, etc. I expected the Germans to be stereotypically efficient on this.

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by teekert on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:24PM (#20617744)
I had the same in the black Forrest, at the top of hills it was OK but mostly it was indeed Edge. Here in Austria I have LTE everywhere.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by kolmogorov on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @07:59AM (#20624331)
I agree with your comment but the same is true for San Francisco / Silicon Valley. The connection is often times terrible and try having a VOIP call on the 101.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by xienze on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @08:24AM (#20624472)
That’s probably more about overloaded towers, not lack of coverage.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by danielscrubs on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @12:47PM (#20636419)
Sounds like a great place to take a vacation in, in that case. Tech free vacations are becoming a thing.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by throwitawayday on Monday August 05, 2019 @02:27PM (#20616855)
Having recently visited the Yellowstone National Park, the situation you describe for the North Sea side of Germany applies but worse, the cell phone data connection being non-existent, and with the added issue that only one hotel offered wifi, and it was out of service for the entire duration of our visit.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by bobthepanda on Monday August 05, 2019 @02:33PM (#20616950)
It's a national park - this is an intentional policy. There is some cell service, but the park specifically does not want cell towers everywhere.

> In 2009, Yellowstone completed a plan for wireless communications in the park. The plan dictates that cell phone and wifi will only be allowed for visitor safety and to enhance park operations. It restricts towers, antennas, and wireless services to a few limited locations in the park, in order to protect park resources and limit the impact on park visitors.

https://www.yellowstonepark.com/park/cell-phone-wifi-yellows...

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by ghaff on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:14PM (#20617578)
I think that's fairly common in a lot of the bigger and more remote national parks. Death Valley has decent cell reception at Furnace Creek (the main visitor center and lodging area) but AFAIK there's none in the rest of the 3,000 square miles.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by blackflame7000 on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:37PM (#20617917)
Death Valley is also in a valley surrounded by tall mountains loaded with cell tower equipment so the signal propagates pretty easily because there are minimal line-of-sight obstructions.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by ghaff on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:42PM (#20617983)
I can't say I've ever noticed cell phone reception outside of the immediate Furnace Creek area but it's possible you can pick something up from whatever is up on the mountains in some locations.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by robohoe on Monday August 05, 2019 @06:00PM (#20619525)
Last time I was in Death Valley in December I could barely get any signal outside of Furnace Creek. Even in FC it was terrible. I had two cellphones on T-Mobile and AT&T for that matter.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by duxup on Monday August 05, 2019 @02:41PM (#20617073)
I honestly would expect that at a national park.

To me that would be what a national park ... just is.

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by krzyk on Monday August 05, 2019 @02:45PM (#20617132)
But this is the place where you might get lost and without cell service, you are really lost.

This is quite annoying in the US, that national parks or deserts have no cell service. The places that need it most (life and death situations) - this is basically a health service there.

In comparison to Europe the mobile density is quite sparse there.

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by ghaff on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:07PM (#20617486)
Please. If your attitude is that if you get in some kind of trouble, you can just use your cell phone and have someone come get you, you should just stay out of wilderness areas.

You're endangering yourself which I wouldn't care that much about but you're also potentially endangering any search and rescue teams that have to come looking for you.

As for the lost scenario specifically. I don't know. Maybe carry a (paper) map and compass? In addition (not instead of) a GPS doesn't need cell reception to operate and works most places. (Some exceptions, like narrow canyons.)

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by cc81 on Monday August 05, 2019 @04:21PM (#20618495)
There are options these days like the inReach that I would recommend for hikers that will be out in the wilderness for an extended period of time and/or might be away from easy access to help. Of course standard protocol still applies like telling someone what path you will take, when they should expect you back etc. but I would feel much safer with an inReach with me just in case.

https://explore.garmin.com/en-US/inreach/

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by ghaff on Monday August 05, 2019 @04:44PM (#20618722)
Part of me dislikes the availability of equipment that puts you in contact from pretty much anywhere--in part because it creates the expectation that you'll avail yourself of such equipment.

But, if I'm being sensible and I'm off by myself in a remote area, yeah, I'd probably take one.

ADDED: And, yes, it's nice to be able to call for help if you really need it. But way too many folks think they can just get in trouble because they're really not prepared, call 911, and everything will be great. A number of states actually collect costs from people if they were negligent these days.

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by esrauch on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:47PM (#20618067)
If your friend falls down a gorge and is unresponsive it seems more than completely reasonable to phone for help.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by ilikehurdles on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:51PM (#20618118)
There are many ways[1] to radio for help already. It's unreasonable and irresponsible to get into that situation with only a cell phone.

[1]: https://www.rei.com/c/emergency-electronics

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by ghaff on Monday August 05, 2019 @04:52PM (#20618799)
I'm not sure what "that situation" is. inReach-type devices are probably prudent for certain activities in remote areas. Though if someone is unresponsive after falling in a gorge, I suspect S&R arriving many hours later--and many more hours getting to a hospital--isn't going to be of much help.

It's certainly not routine for individuals or even groups to carry such devices in wilderness areas even if cell phone reception is spotty. I can go 2 hours north of where I live and hike on steep trails where there's no guarantee of cell phone reception.

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by dkersten on Monday August 05, 2019 @04:16PM (#20618424)
How ever did people get by for thousands of years before cell phones existed?
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by pilsetnieks on Monday August 05, 2019 @04:42PM (#20618694)
The didn't. If you fell down into a crevice, you died. You could apply the same spurious argument to anything - how did people ever get by for thousands of years before antibiotics/vaccines/electricity/water purification existed? They didn't, they lived their nasty, brutish and short lives, and died.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by ghaff on Monday August 05, 2019 @05:37PM (#20619303)
I could argue that cell phones (etc.) are technology that is basically: "Come rescue me." There are plenty of other technologies that we can use to help ourselves (maps, compasses, matches, and so forth). I'm at least somewhat uncomfortable with saying that calling for help is quite in the same category.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by dkersten on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @10:47AM (#20635178)
There's a simple way to avoid it, with or without cellphones: don't go to dangerous places without being prepared for it.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by amarshall on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:04PM (#20617434)
There’s a reason it’s called wilderness. One should have basic orienteering skills if they venture away from the popular, touristy locations. If things really do go awry, bring (and use) an EPIRB.

I would never rely on a cellular phone for safety in the wilderness. Cellular service and geolocation was never be 100% reliable, and batteries die. A paper map, a compass, basic skills, and knowledge of one’s limits go a long way.

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by ghaff on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:10PM (#20617534)
I'm not sure how big I am on even encouraging everyone who gets off the beaten track to carry an EPIRB. However, if I'm being honest, if I did any amount of solo backpacking--especially in less traveled areas--I'd probably consider it these days.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by amarshall on Monday August 05, 2019 @06:48PM (#20620006)
Indeed, though the problem is often people activating them for situations not truly life-threatening. In some cases, misuse has resulted in hefty fines. Most people don’t need them because most people don’t actually do “backcountry”, let alone solo it.

It should be understood that an EPIRB should only be used in the most dire of circumstances.

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by ilikehurdles on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:06PM (#20617476)
Cell Towers have no place in National Parks/Forests and other nature preserves. If you're in the middle of the ocean you're not going to have cell phone service either, and you should plan accordingly.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by krzyk on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @03:58AM (#20623161)
Do roads have place in national parks? If so then cell towers also.

I mean if I see asphalt then it is quite reasonable to expect also cell service.

I was i national parks in Europe and I always got cell service. I might be lucky (considering the article and posts about Germany) but in US I was in one park (actually two, but I don't remember situation with mobiles in one) and I did get cell service even before the gates.

I don't expect to have cell service if the park doesn't have roads, just hiking tracks.

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by sgt101 on Monday August 05, 2019 @02:59PM (#20617372)
I'm not sure if you are serious, but if you are can I suggest that you don't go into the park unless you know what you are doing?
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by irrational on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:23PM (#20617725)
Wait, how could you possibly get really lost in Yellowstone? If you are leaving your car and heading off into the back country then presumably you have the skills to do so. If you are staying on the normal roads then you will have no problem finding a ranger, a ranger station, an information booth, etc. I've probably been to Yellowstone 10 times and I can't fathom anyone getting really lost.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by umanwizard on Monday August 05, 2019 @07:13PM (#20620249)
Greenland is part of the Kingdom of Denmark. I seriously doubt there is cell service in the interior of the Greenlandic ice cap. Does this mean the Kingdom of Denmark has shitty infrastructure?

The only reason you find mobile coverage sparse in the US is because the US has large, nearly unpopulated areas, whereas Europe doesn’t.

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by sambal on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:37PM (#20617922)
This expectation & comparison is part of why “Death Valley Germans” is such a meme.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by ghaff on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:39PM (#20617955)
For reference: http://www.otherhand.org/home-page/search-and-rescue/the-hun...

It's quite the read.

It's also recommended reading if you go to the US West and your expectations are mostly informed by tooling around the countryside of Western Europe (or the eastern US for that matter).

Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by dkersten on Monday August 05, 2019 @04:31PM (#20618597)
Oh wow, just read the first bit, intriguing. Thanks for posting!
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by robohoe on Monday August 05, 2019 @06:01PM (#20619537)
Other articles by Tom Mahood are a great read as well. Highly recommend subscribing to his blog. There is lots to learn from his piddling around the American Southwest.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by ghaff on Monday August 05, 2019 @06:20PM (#20619733)
Just the "subscribe to blog" brought a small smile to my face because such a thing still exists. Thanks.
Re:Germans Grow Frustrated with Their Slow-Poke Internet by hesk on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @12:55PM (#20627015)
Thanks for the link! Very interesting read!