This story is similar to Theranos
It's one thing to provide a massively overpriced juice press combined with a ridiculous subscription model than actually endangering peoples health by willful lying.
I cannot see any other reason for Theranos' conduct and if this world would be only halfway fair their executives would look at it from behind bars.
That's mostly carrot (+lemon and orange) but still it's very dry. See also AvE's video[1] where he opens a bag and its full of processed but still largely intact pomegranate. You can squeeze most of a first glass out by hand[2] but that's about it. To get the rest out a press really is necessary- but Juicero isn't just a press. It's massive machined aluminum billets and expensive gears and a custom motor. The huge aluminum parts are likely the biggest cost sink- hundreds of dollars, easily. If they had made the things out of extrusions they could have saved 80%+ on the cost. Just goofy all around.
edit: also this... enthusiastic gentleman, who is pretty enthusiastic about the contents of the bag[3]
[1]: https://youtu.be/_Cp-BGQfpHQ?t=30m6s
I don't know about you, but that cleanly fits my definition of "shredded".
> edit: also this... enthusiastic gentleman, who is pretty enthusiastic about the contents of the bag[3]
Yeah, discountjuicers.com guy is a real hoot. Good info too.
LMAO
Point being is it's not just a juice bag- they do at least have good intentions/make a show of having good intentions.
I don't drink OJ much anymore, but a couple of years ago I had some Pure Premium and noticed that it really tasted a lot more like concentrate than I'd remembered--it had that kind of acidic/slightly artificial taste.
So, I did a little digging and found that it is now run through a process called "deaeration". Apparently, this is well-known and the subject of controversy. The short is that they take the oxygen out, pasteurize it, and store it in massive tanks. Problem with that is that it loses its flavor. So, they add "flavor packets" before packaging it.
It's amazing that they can still call it 100% juice. Then again, it's somehow legal to say that a carton "contains 100% juice" simply because at some point some measure of 100% juice was poured in, even if the total juice ratio ends up being 2% when other ingredients are subsequently added.
OJ is a scam from start to finish: from the ridiculous claims about its healthfulness; to the slightly-shrinking packages, designed to look the same standard sizes; to what they dub 100% pure squeezed juice.
The concept of food that's uniquely tagged and tracked from origin to consumption is pretty attractive - makes contamination a breeze to trace back, keeps you from cooking with rotten food since the machine knows to reject it, and it could automatically track what you've got in your kitchen to suggest recipes / restock for you.
That's all been thought of before, the trouble is how on earth do you build that network? I suspect the reason Juicero got so much money is they were trying to build it first with high end luxury foods, and then expand down-market to eventually own the 'groceries of the future.'
Personally, I think good ol Jeff Bezos is going to win this one too by first owning grocery delivery straight up, and then going 'oh by the way they're all trackable if you want, you should buy Amazon brand appliances to make use of the feature :)" because as others pointed out here, counter space is at a premium and nobody really wants appliances that don't work with all their ingredients.
Anyway, that's what I tell myself to make this whole ludicrous story less sad.
What makes you think people want those things? I certainly don't, and I've never heard anyone mention wanting any of those things. I have heard people mention that they hate appliances like the coffee makers that only work with the expensive patented coffee pods from their manufacturer. (And printers, etc.)
I don't want any appliance that the manufacturer can shut down or refuse to run remotely. (See the recent story about the guy who paid off his car, but it was disabled remotely because he didn't pay the "remove the disabler" fee.)
In ~35 years of cooking, I don't recall ever using ingredients that went bad. I'm sure I probably did once or twice, but it didn't leave a bad enough impression on me to even remember, let alone want this sort of device that's tethered to the network and manufacturer, with all the problems that brings.
- Preheat the oven as I'm driving home
- Alert me when my laundry/dishes are done
- Alert me if my air filter needs replaced.
- Manage my AC/Heating for maximum energy efficiency.
- Real time energy usage monitoring.
- Turn on/off lights when I arrive/leave.
Oven preheating: takes 15 minutes when I get home barely enough time to prepare whatever I'm putting in there.
Loud dry/dishes alerts: I don't see how it's useful. If I'm not home it doesn't matter to me if the laundry or dishes are done or not as I can't do anything about it.
Any filter changes: almost all either work on specific timing intervals, so just set 5 years worth of reminders in your phone, or they detect pressure differentials and a service light can just turn on when the machine needs a new filter.
Manage AC for max efficiency: nothing a programmable thermostat can't handle unless you have really crazy schedules but even then the savings are minuscule.
Turning on/off lights: okey, could be useful.
For me, turning on lights etc are such a small part of my day, not to mention my 'needs' as to be completely insignificant.
If the machines would do something like sort, wash and fold the laundry that would be something, but as it is I people just buy them for novelty value.
And I am surprised how often I actually use little things like adjusting the lighting, finding my phone or keys, or even raising and lowering blinds.
Just yelling, "Alexa, turn off all the lights" as I walk out the door, or "Alexa, set the house temperature to 72" as I lay down for bed has really cut out a lot of fastidious things that by themselves doesn't matter much, but added up use a surprising amount of time.
Saying, "why would I want something to do x or y?" Sounds just like people I remember back in the 90s that said, why would I want email when I can just call? And then, why would I use text messaging when I can just email...
To each his own, I guess.
I wouldn't want to have my oven on when I am not home- it might just be me but it seems dangerous to leave a hot oven unattended. I always check the oven before starting it to make sure it's empty. I guess I am somewhat paranoid that something somehow ended up in there.
The rest of the stuff I, personally, don't see any value in other than energy efficiency and that doesn't really require networking. My fridge is constantly telling me that I need a new water and air filters but I just ignore it and assume it's a ploy to sell more filters (like printers that report you need more ink despite printing fine).
Water filters can build up bacteria (listeria is not a fun thing - there are others, too - some pretty bad); this can cause everything from a "funky smell" to "go to emergency room or die". That said, tap water in most municipalities is pretty damn clean, and you can run without a filter; but if you don't want to change the filter, then do just that - remove the filter, so that you don't give the bacteria a nice growth area. If you do change the filter, don't go more than a year between changes at most. Most filters are cheap enough, usually less than $50 USD.
As far as the air filter - well, I've never heard of one on a fridge - but if you have one, it's probably to filter the air before it gets to the fan that cools the compressor. If you let it get super dirty, it won't move the air, and your compressor will be overheated/overworked, and it's life will be shortened, or it will fail - or the breaker on the fridge (know where your's is?) will trip. And don't take the filter off and just run filterless - because now the cooling coils will act as the filter, and they are anything but easy to clean (because if you don't, again failures will eventually occur - nbtw, that they sell a special fridge coil cleaning brush that looks like a very narrow bottle brush).
If you're talking about other filters in your house (HVAC) - then you want to change those too, fairly regularly. If you don't, again, you'll be overworking your A/C unit, plus the air won't be moved around effectively (making the unit run longer to cool/heat - increasing your bill). Plus, those filters get pretty nasty too - and that stuff doesn't stay on the filter.
They make reusable filters - you cut them with scissors to match the filter opening, then when you are ready to clean them, you take them outside and run a water from a sprayer hose "backwards" thru the filter, then let 'em air dry. That can be a cheaper and easier alternative to holding on to a box or two of filters (though such filters are pretty cheap).
Finally - note that on many cars (not all!) there is a "cabin air filter". Check your manual on how to replace it; most people don't know about that filter, but it isn't difficult to change out. Costs of course are variable, depending on the car. Again, though, if you don't replace it regularly, your cabin heating/cooling will suffer, air flow will be reduced, the fan motor will have to work harder, etc.
Basically - for air filter, check them now and then. When they look like they are getting overly fuzzy, or you can't see thru 'em - change them out.
I don't doubt that filters should be changed regularly but I don't trust LG to tell me when.
The water filter- My fridge makes ice and dispenses cold water from one of the doors. This mechanism has a water filter.
Well, then you are in the market for an IoT oven that is connected to your phone and car. A device that can continuously track your phone and car location, and turn off the networked oven if you are outside the house.
The problem is nobody wants to carry a dongle. Also, localizing the dongle inside the house is not as straightforward. Would the users need to put one dongle-detector in each room? one near each exit? If it has long transmission range, then it would probably be big/heavy due to larger batteries.
More resources on the Tor Blog: https://blog.torproject.org/blog/quick-simple-guide-tor-and-...
With Orange (French ISP) the IPv6 is dynamic. You have to pay a monthly fee to get a static.
It's all managed by a raspberry Pi (About £20). The system can also pick up my wireless doorbell, and I am about to add temperature sensors and relays (£25) to my central heating system so everything is automated and controllable from Node-Red and a Web interface. Overall, I will have a private home control system for under £100 and I can view and manage it from my laptop or a VPN link from my phone.
At least with the Pi, Arduino, etc., you can control what your Things are doing, and have reasonable assurance they aren't doing things behind your back.
I have a Pi graphing outdoor and basement temperature and humidity using rtl433, MRTG, and some scripts, picking up the signals from existing temperature monitors. It's quite a surprise to see how much else is on 433 MHz in my neighborhood, even when using the stubby magnetic mount antenna that came with the RTL-SDR dongle.
That said, people need to be a lot more literate in this sense.
That said, Kuerig sells many of their machines, and many people like and use them. That fact is very strong evidence that there is a strong market for this type of product if it is done correctly.
In other words, people do want this kind of product.
On demand juice for < 50c/serving? Sure.
$2-$3/serving? Nope.
We use kcups at the coworking space here, and at 30-35c, they're worth the convenience. 60c? $1? Nope - we'll just brew a big pot.
But... we can get kcups from dozens of vendors with various flavors and price points. If a juicer machine had low price points (original machine and packs) that were available from multiple vendors... yeah, I'd go for it. But it's gotta have all these other factors (flexible vendors and low prices) which I'm not sure anyone wants to target.
That wasn't the question. It was about living without something you enjoy if it costs 0.60 or more.
That was the question.
If I don't have to pay the extra 60c... why would I do that? I have no incentive to pay $1 cup for something which I can get for, say, 40c/cup.
I might pay $1/cup, sometimes, but if I can get it for 40c... why pay more?
None of us got sick, so far as I know. I took 4 bags (peas, corn, green beans, unopened peas) back for full refund.
Not sure what happened to the company (in eastern Washington) because this had to be horrendously expensive for them.
I've been working from home all week, and we had electricity and internet right through the storm.
That's with 3 feet of water in the street outside.
But that's pretty cool they handled it.
If only we had some kind of olfactory or optical equipment stuck on the front of our faces that could help determine the rottenness or mouldiness of food.
Failing that, perhaps producers of packaged food could use some kind of common standard system to inform consumers of the date by which the food should be used by, or before which it might be at its best.
Wrote this because I got in a similar conversation on twitter: https://medium.com/@nickparkerprint/in-defense-of-juicero-an...
However, that tracking belongs at the kitchen door using a common industry standard format, and the ability to manually enter inventory items.
If you need a different appliance to prepare food from each vendor, then you won't be able to make Alphabet spaghetti with Amazon beef and Apple tomatoes; you can't pop to the local shop to get some milk; you can't go into your garden to pick some carrots; you can't go to a specialist vendor to get a particular spice mix or exotic vegetable; you can't buy your favourite varieties from a local grower.
I can't picture giving up on those advantages just so that Mr. Bezos can tell me what to eat.
The only thing I can add is perhaps a corollary to this, which is "nothing causes a business to fail more than solving a non-existent problem" which is what Juicero did.
Your eyes/nose won't pick up bacteria in the flour.
You'd remember if it was anthrax.
I barely read half my mail, snail or electronic. The chances I'm going to see and read and act on a "your food is bad!!!" email (assuming it doesn't get eaten by some filter) before I eat the food in question is low, low low. Some device getting the message and physically stopping me is really the only way to be sure.
Kidding aside, this is too simple of a problem to solve. Serious contamination isn't a part of 1st world daily life, because we have excellent news and regulations (so far). Rotten food is easy to detect, and even some of the stuff we consider rotten would probably not make us sick.
It's all a shiny coat of wax on a non-problem, just like bottled water and gingivitis.
"If we recognize the bag, and it's recalled, we'll stop you—or at least yell at you. If you use someone else's bag you're on your own, but we won't stop you."
Surely they were capable of having this thought. That they didn't or chose to ignore it hints at ulterior motives—most obvious is overcharging for the bags, since not buying them makes you the proud owner of a $400 paperweight.
But a prediction: almost everyone who attempts to block consumers from consuming bad food with technology will do it to overcharge for the food. Safety will be the excuse, not the purpose.
If your goal is reducing food poisoning through TECHNOLOGY! and CONNECTIVITY! to better inform consumers if their food has been recalled, you'd be better off developing food packaging that could eg change color when the food is recalled - a big giant red skull and crossbones appearing on my food packages would probably keep me from accidentally eating bad food. That would both be a challenging engineering project (since it'd have to be cheap, food-safe, and ideally biodegradable), and work for a far wider range of foods and ingredients.
Things going rotten are not that predictable, even if you know exactly when and where it was packaged.
There are cases where something can go bad before its expiry date, due to improper storage, but storage conditions until food reaches given appliance could be tracked too to account for that.
However - there is one food label that I have always wanted on meats: slaughter date, freeze/pack date, sell date, cook date, eat date.
So if I go to the store and there is meat in the freezer - when was that meat caught/slaughtered/packed/frozen.
Am I eating something a year old?
If you had that labeling - I would be willing to bet that healthier eating habits would ensue - not that the meat industry would prefer it though..
What I really would like is a "picked on" label on fruits & vegetables. A cucumber from my garden is fine 3 weeks after picking. One from the grocery store is barely edible a few days after purchase.
I just think that each step in the processing of food should be transparent.
Has frozen food sat in various places far longer than expected?
And even if we're talking cuts of meat, i think technology like MATS(microwave assisted thermal sterilization) may give you high quality meat that doesn't spoil for very long, so that won't be an issue.
And as for suggesting recipes based on fridge content or restocking (are those such big problems for consumers?) - there are probably other ways to solve that , like AI + camera, no need to reshuffle the whole supply chain.
If this were ever to happen - and what I know of food chemistry makes me strongly skeptical - you would definitely see it in actual restaurants way before you get it at home. Because for a restaurant, if you can effectively replace a human costing >$40k/yr with a change in supply chain and a fancy machine, you can easily afford to pay $40k for the machine alone. A consumer would never afford that.
(Same goes for fully autonomous cars.)
As for the "reducing food waste" concept - no store actually wants to achieve this. Think about it - actively trying to get people to buy less of what you sell is pretty bad for business.
Ever heard of a TurboChef oven? Because that's almost exactly what you're describing. Think of it as a combination oven that uses microwaves, thermal, and convection to cook stuff extremely fast, and generally of a pretty decent quality.
If you've eaten at just about any restaurant, you have likely had something prepared in one (if not the whole meal).
They are actually pretty nice machines; if I had the counter room at home I'd have one. But they aren't cheap...
Which is why it's ripe for disruption. The consumer could be better off, a company that isn't in the space already could be better off, they're the people who need to make it happen.
My neighbor grows soybeans, and he hates the guy who buys his soybeans. If someone came in and treated him better and paid him more, I think he'd leap at the chance to sell his crop to them even if it imperiled the future.
Besides, suppliers aren't monolithic. Many suppliers are scrapping for new business or ways to differentiate themselves. Better farmers could be more successful in a paradigm where they could earn extra money for healthy plants than say selling to walmart who simply pays a fixed price if the plants meet minimum standards.
Now I think you could make that stuff better, don't get me wrong, I'm not going to hate on Juicero for that. Their entire play was just VC-Bingo though: they had a device, they had a subscription, they had "lock in" (device is only good with the subscription) they had internet attachment, it's a health and wellness type play, probably some other things I'm not thinking of. Anyone know if they had to subsidize the prices, that'd be the grand slam if they had to do that too. $30 a week for 5 packs of juice, that's $120 a month and you do the work and clean up the mess and you have to get different juice on the weekends. The bags aren't supposed to make that much mess but I think the psychology of it all is huge, a coffee maker doesn't make much mess either and you'll pay a gigantic premium at a coffee shop. How many months before you get a tip-top of the line cold press juicer that'll make juice out of any produce? With no subscription.
The other benefits you mention are marginal at best, in my opinion. I would never pay a premium for tagged and tracked food like that.
Edit: Funny, there's a post on overengineering on the front page!
If you put that much effort into it, then you can just as well remember what you need to buy when.
It would be hard to make something more convenient than a pen and paper though. And in the store crossing things off the nigh indestructible scrap of worthless paper is better than fiddling with a device.
[0]https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.mightyfrog...
A piece of paper is 'always on', it wraps around the push bar of the food cart so I don't have to make adjustments to hold the 'device' and steer at the same time, or keep fishing the phone out of my pocket and unlocking it, nor from the cart itself, while ensuring I don't drop any shopping on the screen or stray too far from the cart and give someone the opportunity to grab the phone.
The only way I'd go back to using a smartphone is if the cart had a lockable universal smartphone cradle. Bonus points would be given for a built-in charger - provided the stores maintained everything so you didn't need to 'test' the carts outside to find one with a working charger and cradle.
But obviously that wasn't the main point. Using computer vision you can automate it.
You know - the one where governments and police departments have equipment to fool the device to connecting to just them so they know exactly where I am?
That next logical step of Agafia sounds ludicrous!
Going from that to sticking it in a scanner to get permission to eat it probably doesn't add a lot of utility.
I've noticed that the digital multi-flavor soda dispensers create more customer bottlenecks compared the regular 4-6 nozzle dispensers. Having every customer figure out how to load a "juice pack" then operate the machine seems like it would have a similar inconveniencing effect.
You can market it as "fresh".
Cost-wise it is more expensive than buying not-from-concentrate juice in a half gallon quantities, but not that much more so. Definitely <= 100% premium and you get it freshly squeezed right before you.
They also could have just built a "scrappier" v1.0 hardware product at a lower cost (maybe with rollers or something) at 50% BOM cost and subsidized it a bit more. At $200 + $6-8 per pack they might have been successful; at $200 + $200/mo for 30 packs they probably would have been.
Here is a 'juicero' that you can fill with whatever chopped fruit you want and get the same/better results:
https://www.amazon.com/Fruit-Press-Italian-Stainless-Brewcra...
And it's far from certain that first business would attract VC's.
I find this line really funny for some reason. (Juicero has been the laughingstock of the tech community over their go to market, pricing, and marketing/business models, and we are now looking at the pieces as they exploded over this fact.)
So I had to try really, really hard not to reply to your innocent comment with mock surprise - like no! You think?
>I think they went about getting to market wrong
I admit to a slightly childish glee in ordering an orange juce and watching the machine peel and juice the fresh oranges. (Mostly I eat actual fruit).
Good idea but I don't think it's that easy: the extraction of olive oil is not a simple matter of pressing olives until the oil comes out, but a long process with multiple steps [1] that I doubt they could been done by a press that is relatively simple as/as big as Juicero (as it can be seen by the cons in the two methods for the extraction that are listed on wiki).
They should have went after the convenience store market using the soda dispenser/automated latte/vending machine/icee making business model. Basically convince the store owner to have some refrigerated space dedicated to the pouches and then put the machine nearby for the customer to make their own juice in real time.
I see a Juice company in the SF Ferry Building selling fresh squeezed juice for over $8. If they could have positioned themselves somewhere between that and $2 pasteurized/packaged juice from the grocery store, they could have done very well.
https://www.yelp.com/biz/sow-juice-san-francisco