News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Juicero Is Shutting Down by Spivak on Friday September 01, 2017 @03:43PM (#15151810)
We should probably split hairs here. I would love for all of my appliances to be networked -- just not on the public internet.

- Preheat the oven as I'm driving home

- Alert me when my laundry/dishes are done

- Alert me if my air filter needs replaced.

- Manage my AC/Heating for maximum energy efficiency.

- Real time energy usage monitoring.

- Turn on/off lights when I arrive/leave.

Re:Juicero Is Shutting Down by gehwartzen on Friday September 01, 2017 @11:12PM (#15154019)
I must be the completely wrong target consumer but I just see so little value in all of this to warent any expense and security risk of the appliances being networked.

Oven preheating: takes 15 minutes when I get home barely enough time to prepare whatever I'm putting in there.

Loud dry/dishes alerts: I don't see how it's useful. If I'm not home it doesn't matter to me if the laundry or dishes are done or not as I can't do anything about it.

Any filter changes: almost all either work on specific timing intervals, so just set 5 years worth of reminders in your phone, or they detect pressure differentials and a service light can just turn on when the machine needs a new filter.

Manage AC for max efficiency: nothing a programmable thermostat can't handle unless you have really crazy schedules but even then the savings are minuscule.

Turning on/off lights: okey, could be useful.

Re:Juicero Is Shutting Down by allenz on Saturday September 02, 2017 @01:28AM (#15154465)
While each little piece isn't very impressive, taken together I think it makes life significantly more convenient, anticipating your every need. The promise of IoT is that everything "just works", like magic. It's like having a personal butler.
Re:Juicero Is Shutting Down by adrianN on Saturday September 02, 2017 @02:15AM (#15154604)
Currently IoT delivers the experience of having a grumpy butler that regularly tells you to go fuck yourself and sells your personal information to the highest bidder.
Re:Juicero Is Shutting Down by CaptainZapp on Monday September 04, 2017 @05:57AM (#15167007)
And potentially refuses to open your main door since the union, to which the butler belongs, disbanded on two weeks notice and the butler refuses to work, unless he's unionized.
Re:Juicero Is Shutting Down by Grustaf on Sunday September 03, 2017 @09:27AM (#15161307)
They 'anticipate every need' if all your needs revolve around turning on things according to a schedule, or at most according to where you are physically.

For me, turning on lights etc are such a small part of my day, not to mention my 'needs' as to be completely insignificant.

If the machines would do something like sort, wash and fold the laundry that would be something, but as it is I people just buy them for novelty value.

Re:Juicero Is Shutting Down by jjeaff on Sunday September 03, 2017 @07:53PM (#15164656)
I agree with this sentiment. I made the decision a few years ago to try and automate away the little things.

And I am surprised how often I actually use little things like adjusting the lighting, finding my phone or keys, or even raising and lowering blinds.

Just yelling, "Alexa, turn off all the lights" as I walk out the door, or "Alexa, set the house temperature to 72" as I lay down for bed has really cut out a lot of fastidious things that by themselves doesn't matter much, but added up use a surprising amount of time.

Saying, "why would I want something to do x or y?" Sounds just like people I remember back in the 90s that said, why would I want email when I can just call? And then, why would I use text messaging when I can just email...

Re:Juicero Is Shutting Down by CaptainZapp on Monday September 04, 2017 @05:58AM (#15167013)
To me the prize, which comes in a complete invasion of privacy, is much too high to make such a gizmo worthwhile. Ever!

To each his own, I guess.

Re:Juicero Is Shutting Down by FICO on Friday September 01, 2017 @04:52PM (#15152305)
Idk...

I wouldn't want to have my oven on when I am not home- it might just be me but it seems dangerous to leave a hot oven unattended. I always check the oven before starting it to make sure it's empty. I guess I am somewhat paranoid that something somehow ended up in there.

The rest of the stuff I, personally, don't see any value in other than energy efficiency and that doesn't really require networking. My fridge is constantly telling me that I need a new water and air filters but I just ignore it and assume it's a ploy to sell more filters (like printers that report you need more ink despite printing fine).

Re:Juicero Is Shutting Down by cr0sh on Friday September 01, 2017 @07:32PM (#15153124)
You might want to double-think that filter thing.

Water filters can build up bacteria (listeria is not a fun thing - there are others, too - some pretty bad); this can cause everything from a "funky smell" to "go to emergency room or die". That said, tap water in most municipalities is pretty damn clean, and you can run without a filter; but if you don't want to change the filter, then do just that - remove the filter, so that you don't give the bacteria a nice growth area. If you do change the filter, don't go more than a year between changes at most. Most filters are cheap enough, usually less than $50 USD.

As far as the air filter - well, I've never heard of one on a fridge - but if you have one, it's probably to filter the air before it gets to the fan that cools the compressor. If you let it get super dirty, it won't move the air, and your compressor will be overheated/overworked, and it's life will be shortened, or it will fail - or the breaker on the fridge (know where your's is?) will trip. And don't take the filter off and just run filterless - because now the cooling coils will act as the filter, and they are anything but easy to clean (because if you don't, again failures will eventually occur - nbtw, that they sell a special fridge coil cleaning brush that looks like a very narrow bottle brush).

If you're talking about other filters in your house (HVAC) - then you want to change those too, fairly regularly. If you don't, again, you'll be overworking your A/C unit, plus the air won't be moved around effectively (making the unit run longer to cool/heat - increasing your bill). Plus, those filters get pretty nasty too - and that stuff doesn't stay on the filter.

They make reusable filters - you cut them with scissors to match the filter opening, then when you are ready to clean them, you take them outside and run a water from a sprayer hose "backwards" thru the filter, then let 'em air dry. That can be a cheaper and easier alternative to holding on to a box or two of filters (though such filters are pretty cheap).

Finally - note that on many cars (not all!) there is a "cabin air filter". Check your manual on how to replace it; most people don't know about that filter, but it isn't difficult to change out. Costs of course are variable, depending on the car. Again, though, if you don't replace it regularly, your cabin heating/cooling will suffer, air flow will be reduced, the fan motor will have to work harder, etc.

Basically - for air filter, check them now and then. When they look like they are getting overly fuzzy, or you can't see thru 'em - change them out.

Re:Juicero Is Shutting Down by FICO on Saturday September 02, 2017 @01:32AM (#15154482)
This is my fridge air filter - https://youtu.be/ziaCjNIPSCU all the new fridges have them now. It's literally just for filtering the air in the fridge, the high tech version of a box of baking soda. My HVAC system is steam radiators, which, thankfully, don't require filters.

I don't doubt that filters should be changed regularly but I don't trust LG to tell me when.

Re:Juicero Is Shutting Down by distances on Saturday September 02, 2017 @07:32AM (#15155437)
Excuse my ignorance, but I've never heard or fridges having filters. What are they used for?
Re:Juicero Is Shutting Down by FICO on Saturday September 02, 2017 @10:52AM (#15156242)
The air filter- It's just an electronic version of putting a box of baking soda in the fridge. See the video I posted in the comment you are replying to, its from the manufacturer and shows the setup.

The water filter- My fridge makes ice and dispenses cold water from one of the doors. This mechanism has a water filter.

Re:Juicero Is Shutting Down by jpetso on Sunday September 03, 2017 @07:55PM (#15164669)
In all my 34 years so far, I've never had the desire to have my fridge conditioned in baking soda. Sometimes I feel like manufacturers really just introduce stuff to make life more complicated (and sell supplies regularly), then afterwards come up with an IoT solution for a problem that I shouldn't have had in the first place.
Re:Juicero Is Shutting Down by distances on Saturday September 02, 2017 @01:03PM (#15157036)
Right, the water filter makes sense if the fridge deal with water, I guess. Not very convinced about the air filter though.
Re:Juicero Is Shutting Down by FICO on Saturday September 02, 2017 @06:26PM (#15158559)
Yes, its a silly "feature" nobody asked for or needs.
Re:Juicero Is Shutting Down by eh78ssxv2f on Friday September 01, 2017 @08:50PM (#15153480)
> I wouldn't want to have my oven on when I am not home- it might just be me but it seems dangerous to leave a hot oven unattended.

Well, then you are in the market for an IoT oven that is connected to your phone and car. A device that can continuously track your phone and car location, and turn off the networked oven if you are outside the house.

Re:Juicero Is Shutting Down by fish_fan on Friday September 01, 2017 @10:27PM (#15153865)
Is there large demand for this? I just cook when I'm home and ensure to turn the oven off when I'm done. I'm sure there are people out there who appreciate the automation, but a) how many and b) how much would they pay for it?
Re:Juicero Is Shutting Down by jpetso on Sunday September 03, 2017 @07:59PM (#15164683)
Ask not how much customers are willing to pay for it, ask instead how much data collection companies are willing to pay for customer data.
Re:Juicero Is Shutting Down by Grustaf on Sunday September 03, 2017 @09:31AM (#15161324)
C) it only makes sense if your habits are completely predictable, like cooking food 15 minutes after leaving work or something.
Re:Juicero Is Shutting Down by 2muchcoffeeman on Saturday September 02, 2017 @12:59AM (#15154362)
Why? Just carry a dongle and when that is not in the vicinity of the house switch of certain circuits. What do you need the internet for?
Re:Juicero Is Shutting Down by eh78ssxv2f on Saturday September 02, 2017 @04:19AM (#15154922)
> Just carry a dongle

The problem is nobody wants to carry a dongle. Also, localizing the dongle inside the house is not as straightforward. Would the users need to put one dongle-detector in each room? one near each exit? If it has long transmission range, then it would probably be big/heavy due to larger batteries.

Re:Juicero Is Shutting Down by infinite8s on Saturday September 02, 2017 @07:17PM (#15158764)
Why a dongle? Lets just embed a chip into everyone at birth.
Re:Juicero Is Shutting Down by jasonlaramburu on Friday September 01, 2017 @04:00PM (#15151929)
Assuming you have a dynamic ip this won't be possible without a cloud service.
Re:Juicero Is Shutting Down by dasmoth on Friday September 01, 2017 @04:09PM (#15151985)
There's absolutely no reason why everyone who wants one shouldn't have a static block of IP(v6) addresses. If they're hard to get, that's an ISP problem rather than anything else.
Re:Juicero Is Shutting Down by mjg59 on Friday September 01, 2017 @05:46PM (#15152630)
Most mobile providers don't offer IPv6
Re:Juicero Is Shutting Down by dingo_bat on Friday September 01, 2017 @11:55PM (#15154162)
I think it's the opposite. Mobile operators have higher IPv6 adoption.
Re:Juicero Is Shutting Down by roywiggins on Friday September 01, 2017 @05:45PM (#15152629)
Apparently Tor hidden services works well for this- there's a mode where the hidden service authenticates clients, so you even get some security for free.
Re:Juicero Is Shutting Down by adrianN on Saturday September 02, 2017 @02:18AM (#15154609)
Re:Juicero Is Shutting Down by sannee on Friday September 01, 2017 @04:09PM (#15151989)
We have IPv6, everyone has practically infinite amount of public (and hopefully static, unless ISP did a major fuck up) IP addresses these days.
Re:Juicero Is Shutting Down by wut42 on Saturday September 02, 2017 @05:35AM (#15155109)
>ISP did a major fuck up

With Orange (French ISP) the IPv6 is dynamic. You have to pay a monthly fee to get a static.

Re:Juicero Is Shutting Down by mavhc on Friday September 01, 2017 @04:10PM (#15152007)
Easy enough to set up duckdns etc, depends how you define cloud service, does that including renting a VM?
Re:Juicero Is Shutting Down by geofft on Friday September 01, 2017 @04:36PM (#15152192)
You need one cloud service to tell you what your dynamic IP is, but we've had that service since at least 2001.
Re:Juicero Is Shutting Down by xj9 on Friday September 01, 2017 @04:28PM (#15152142)
use an overlay network like i2p or cjdns. problem solved
Re:Juicero Is Shutting Down by wlievens on Saturday September 02, 2017 @02:55AM (#15154694)
Of those, only real time energy usage monitoring is really interesting, I think.
Re:Juicero Is Shutting Down by linker3000 on Saturday September 02, 2017 @04:32AM (#15154945)
I bought an 'Owl' energy clamp and display from the discount bin at a local hardware store - about £13 ISTR. I made a copy of the rflink (Arduino-based 433MHz rf sniffer/decoder: https://diyprojects.io/how-build-rflink-433mhz-radio-home-ga... - about £20 including ESP8266 wifi link) that decodes the signal from the Owl, my wireless doorbell and that of an outdoor temp/humidity sensor (£6 from Banggood). The board can also send control signals to the rf-enabled mains sockets I have collected over the years (for lights and home appliances).

It's all managed by a raspberry Pi (About £20). The system can also pick up my wireless doorbell, and I am about to add temperature sensors and relays (£25) to my central heating system so everything is automated and controllable from Node-Red and a Web interface. Overall, I will have a private home control system for under £100 and I can view and manage it from my laptop or a VPN link from my phone.

Re:Juicero Is Shutting Down by flyinghamster on Sunday September 03, 2017 @10:00AM (#15161437)
For me, the IoT takeaway is, if you want to be able to trust it, you need to do it yourself. Commercial products seem to always want to sell your data to the highest bidder, aside from the potential firmware security problems.

At least with the Pi, Arduino, etc., you can control what your Things are doing, and have reasonable assurance they aren't doing things behind your back.

I have a Pi graphing outdoor and basement temperature and humidity using rtl433, MRTG, and some scripts, picking up the signals from existing temperature monitors. It's quite a surprise to see how much else is on 433 MHz in my neighborhood, even when using the stubby magnetic mount antenna that came with the RTL-SDR dongle.