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Re:How a Heat Pump Works by boringg on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:12AM (#34739771)
What is going on? Is there a global push to get everyone to switch to heat pumps. It seems that there is heat pump content everywhere. Clearly there is a push.

I understand that its for climate benefits but it feels very coordinated.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by wongarsu on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:25AM (#34739965)
For a long time the main problem of heat pumps was that while they are more efficient, a kilowatthour of gas or oil is much cheaper than a kilowatthour of electricity. But in the last two years natural gas prizes have gone crazy, removing that price disadvantage.

Of course heat pumps emitting no particulates and being able to run on renewables are also good reasons, especially as the health impact of living in cities with high PM2.5 values becomes clearer. But I don't think those are the primary drivers.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by PragmaticPulp on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:49AM (#34740345)
Heat pump technology has also improved significantly. You can now buy heat pumps that remain efficient down to very low temperatures, which makes them appropriate for a larger range of climates now.

Many models are in very high demand. Some of the units I looked at recently were back ordered so far that I was told to pick something else if I expected to have it within the year.

The demand is very high because the technology is good. It’s not a campaign or conspiracy.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by bmicraft on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:21AM (#34740773)
Yeah it almost makes the opposite of sense. If manufacturers are already backordered a year in advance why would they still throw money at marketing
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by bluGill on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:22AM (#34741759)
The war in Ukraine has resulted in a real push to get off of oil/gas based heating, on top of global warming concerns that have already been doing that.

There are lots of different groups looking to push heat pumps for the above reasons. Governments are concerned about both war and global warming. Ukraine supporters are concerned about Russia getting more money (to wage more war). Green activists are concerned about global warming. All have their own reasons to push heat pumps on everyone.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by mytailorisrich on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:58AM (#34740456)
It's not directly related to the recent spike in prices, especially considering that a heat pump installation is very expensive in itself and potentially disruptive.

Rather, it's a combination wanting to get to net zero, so no emissions, with the big problem of generating enough green electricity. A heat pump system has no emissions and consumes much less electricity that an electric boiler/electric heater.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by Thlom on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:19AM (#34740737)
I replaced my old air-to-air heat pump with a new one last year. Cost me in total around $3000-$4000. Might have been a bit more expensive if it was a completely new install depending on how it would be installed, but not too much more expensive. Might be more expensive in countries where you are using gas boilers as it sounds like your heating setup is much more complex than where I live.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by mytailorisrich on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:49AM (#34741204)
Here in the UK, I think the cost of installing a new heat pump, bearing in mind that it's an installation from scratch, starts at about £10k ($12k as today's rate) to several tens of thousands. A ground source heat pump (which seem to be the ones pushed by the gov?) is probably £15k to £30k if you can install one at all. Replacing an existing gas boiler, which is what most people have, is probably around £2k or even less in simple cases. I had mine replaced 2 years ago with the new one installed on a different floor so a fair amount of plumbing was required, and it 'only' cost me £3k.

There are government subsidies but it's still much more expensive in the end. I think they are simply too expensive and impractical to install for most people.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by notacoward on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:38AM (#34742013)
FWIW, I just installed two heat pumps in a 3100sf house in the US northeast this summer. We already had ducted AC. The main unit was US$17K and the mini-split for the master bedroom was US$6K. There a US$10K state rebate, but we'll probably only get 70% of that because we've retained the old heating system as a backup and for water, so total cost is US$16K. These are cold-climate units, both rated down to -4°F but I haven't actually made them work below 20°F yet. Next year I'll probably set the aux cutover temperature to something lower and see how it goes. Year after that we'll probably install solar (plus wind if the technology for that has moved along far enough) and switch to all-electric everything.

BTW my town has an all-electric mandate for new construction already, and there's a lot of that. There's also a bylaw that takes effect in 2025/2026 banning gas-powered landscaping equipment.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by rootusrootus on Friday February 10, 2023 @02:11PM (#34744236)
I think prices have spiked. Two years ago I installed a new heat pump to replace an old failing 5-ton air conditioner (which was paired with a high efficiency natural gas furnace; I kept the furnace as backup instead of relying on electric strips). It was $6K altogether. Was just going to replace the A/C with a new one, but the differential was $1500 and so I figured why not.

OTOH, a few months ago my stepmother installed minisplits after getting quoted $22K to install a whole-home forced air heat pump (going from no forced air at all, so part of that cost was ducting, though it's a single story ranch house so not terribly difficult).

Somewhere between those two points, prices went insane.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by slavik81 on Friday February 10, 2023 @07:13PM (#34747952)
What heat pump did you get? I wanted to get a heat pump, but I ultimately ended up just buying AC. I was told it was not possible to pair with an existing furnace because heat pump control systems were proprietary and incompatible with a standard furnace control.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by pjc50 on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:50AM (#34742185)
I've just signed up to the Scottish government subsidized scheme for air source heat pumps, so I'll report back to HN on this.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by gambiting on Friday February 10, 2023 @05:09PM (#34746649)
Which I absolutely don't get. I just had a mini split unit installed at our house here in North East, paid £1500 total with installation, and damn that thing throws a lot of heat - I literally stopped using our gas boiler, it's more efficient(and cheaper!!!!) to use this unit for heating than to burn gas. It uses like 800W of power when running but produces ~4kW of heat.

I imagine the "proper" heat pump costs a lot because it has to integrate into your central heating - heat and pump water etc. But I also imagine for a lot of people in this country 2-3 mini splits like this one would be absolutely sufficient, wouldn't cost a fortune, and would save them money(plus they can be used for cooling when needed).

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by bobthepanda on Friday February 10, 2023 @12:42PM (#34743000)
They are also kind of a 2 in 1 appliance, in that they can run in reverse and cool your home, and are much more efficient at that than traditional ACs.

In the US where AC is common, summer is generally peak electricity usage. I suspect this will become true in Europe as well with the heatwaves becoming a regular occurrence.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by rootusrootus on Friday February 10, 2023 @02:05PM (#34744154)
> they can run in reverse and cool your home, and are much more efficient at that than traditional ACs.

I'd love to see a source on that. There is very little technological difference between an air conditioner and a heat pump aside from refrigerant reversing valves that allow changing which end is the condenser and which the evaporator.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by Volundr on Friday February 10, 2023 @02:36PM (#34744605)
A heat pump is an air conditioner that can run in reverse. Put another way, an air conditioner is a marketing term for a specific kind of heat pump. Your correct that there is no inherit efficiency different. Perhaps what was meant is that they are much more efficient than traditional resistance heating?
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by bobthepanda on Saturday February 11, 2023 @08:35PM (#34758551)
I guess to clarify, where I've lived the most common type of AC is a window-mounted unit. IIRC those are generally less efficient than the heat pumps getting installed today, to the point where my family got paid by our utility to replace the window units with them.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by Kirby64 on Friday February 10, 2023 @03:15PM (#34745167)
I think as a general statement it's true, however the causal reason for that is not because they're heat pumps, it's because of the market for heat pumps is different.

If you poll the current installed base for HVAC, I suspect you'd find that the (vast) majority of systems are minimum SEER rated (i.e., least efficient) systems, so SEER 13/14 (just became SEER 14 this year).

In comparison, if you're already paying the premium for the heat pump system, likely you also pay an additional premium for a higher SEER unit. Also, what I've seen when doing some online shopping that most heat pump systems marketed seem to be higher SEER. Likely, because the cost associated with additional heat pump stuff drives into a higher end market where you 'might as well' make them higher SEER as well (with inverter compressors, variable fan speeds, etc).

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by Danieru on Friday February 10, 2023 @06:43PM (#34747643)
The bigger reason is the japanese market demands efficiency. Buyers compare running costs.

Thus Japan acting as a breeding ground for cheaper, replaceable, mini splits. The American manufacturers sold into the HVAC specialist market which was efficiency insensitive but cost sensitive. Thus a bi-partite market.

The only reason mini splits have not bankrupted the American manufacturers yet is many Americans still rely on expensive HVAC specialist to do installs. Thus mini splits extreme cost advantage is buried by expensive installs.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by oceanplexian on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:09AM (#34740606)
An overlooked benefit is that they actually improve comfort over a boiler in a dry climate, so if you live somewhere with low humidity they help keep the air less dry. They also give you heating and cooling.. for places that don’t have Air Conditioning it’s a worthwhile upgrade.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by megaman821 on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:13AM (#34740659)
I assume in home that don't have ACs, that they also don't have ducts. Do these ductless homes filter their air, control home humidity, or bring in fresh air from outside?
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by wongarsu on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:20AM (#34740753)
"Ductless homes" usually circulate hot water through radiators. If you switch to a heat pump, nothing's stopping you from circulating cold water in the summer, though obviously there is a limit on the temperature delta (you can heat water much more than you can cool it). Bringing in fresh air is a manual process (open the windows), and filtering air or controling humidity is then left to seperate appliances, if done at all. Though small fans to the outside for forced ventilation are gaining some popularity for giving you automatic air exchange and filtration.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by benplumley on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:30AM (#34740899)
> nothing's stopping you from circulating cold water in the summer

Condensation is - air conditioners have an integrated drip tray which drains to the outside, but if you ran chilled water through radiators they'd all make puddles of condensation on the floor. Retrofitting drains might be possible but I've never seen one and I can't imagine it'd be cost-effective vs installing mini-splits.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by sbradford26 on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:48AM (#34741186)
There are many reasons why you can't just circulate cold water though a radiator to cool. As another commenter stated you will get large amounts of condensation. But the other reason is that you do not get nearly as effective of convection currents with cool versus heating. Your radiators utilize convection currents to circulate the warm air around the room. Running chilled water though the a radiator would be like having an ice cube in the corner of the room. It isn't going to cool the whole room down and will get water everywhere.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by trynewideas on Friday February 10, 2023 @12:04PM (#34742403)
Maybe a faulty assumption; my AC-less home has a ducted oil furnace, and we still haven't removed the ducts after installing a heat pump. Another house I lived in 12 years ago had ducts for oil furnace heating but no AC. Both were 100+ years old and in the northern US.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by rootusrootus on Friday February 10, 2023 @02:14PM (#34744284)
That matches my experience. All of our older houses around here with oil heat are forced air. Radiators are uncommon. But 'older' in this case is only 100-120 years.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by ptmcc on Friday February 10, 2023 @04:32PM (#34746173)
My ductless house has a gas combi water heater/boiler and hot water circulation system to in-wall radiators with simple blower fans.

The house also has an exhaust fan on a timer, paired with small vents on several windows around the house, to cycle in fresh outside air. But practically for much of the year we just open the windows for fresh air since we live in the temperate PNW climate, wildfires aside :(

I looked in to installing a minisplit heat pump system last year, but the quotes I got were outrageous ($25k+) plus as a retrofit it's not the most elegant integration. Someday I'd like to do the conversion and ultimately decommission the gas boiler, but at that price tag it's not happening soon.

In the short term I bought one window AC and one portable AC for a combined ~$1000. It's not ideal but we only have a few weeks a year where cooling is really needed, and a few more where it's a nice luxury but not a necessity.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by oh_sigh on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:45AM (#34741158)
Sure, but you can get a whole home.humidifier for like $300 to mitigate that issue.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by bruckie on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:34AM (#34741941)
My parents installed a whole home humidifier a couple of years ago. It cost way more than $300 (closer to $2k installed—maybe they just got the wrong one?), and it also costs a lot to operate each month in additional electricity usage. Having a system that doesn't require one sounds much nicer.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by oh_sigh on Friday February 10, 2023 @05:44PM (#34747022)
I got quotes in that range as well here in boulder, so I installed one myself a week ago in about 2 hours(aprilaire 700 - $310) with no special HVAC knowledge, though I am mechanically and electronically inclined.

I haven't checked the electricity usage but I can't imagine it is much. The system is literally just a small fan and a solenoid valve. Maybe your parents opted for a steam system, whereas mine is called a flow through style.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by coryrc on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:11PM (#34749504)
I think you got confused with DEhumidifier. Humidifiers are cheap to operate.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by bruckie on Sunday February 12, 2023 @11:48AM (#34764296)
Nope. It's a humidifier that uses resistive heating to vaporize water, and that takes a lot of energy.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by coryrc on Monday February 13, 2023 @04:55PM (#34781289)
That's like cautioning about the price of cars because you bought a Hummer instead of a Corolla. Drum humidifiers use a couple watts on any central forced-air system.

And, since the heating season is there only time you need humidifying on this context, all the "waste" heat is just heating your home.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by aintgonnatakeit on Friday February 10, 2023 @12:15PM (#34742564)
Sorry but this is incorrect. Boilers aka hydronic heat is usually delivered through baseboard fin-tube or hot water radiators. These heat mostly through convection with some radiation. Any humidity in the house is retained. Forced air heats the air and removes humidity absent a humidifier.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by sbradford26 on Friday February 10, 2023 @01:38PM (#34743788)
Forced air doesn't remove humidity from the air either. Humidity is lost through air leakage in homes. Since the air outside had less absolute humidity in the air then humidity will drop due to air leakage. Most measurements of humidity is relative humidity though which changes with air temperature. So any system that heats air will reduce relative humidity.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by wittenbunk on Friday February 10, 2023 @01:45PM (#34743879)
Neither removes humidity, only AC does that. All types of heating lower relative humidity by increasing the temperature of the air.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by quickthrowman on Friday February 10, 2023 @12:40PM (#34742970)
NG (in the US) is now about 70-80% cheaper than it was at the recent highs.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by brewdad on Friday February 10, 2023 @01:02PM (#34743235)
And my local utilities just got approved for massive rate increases locking in those higher prices. Of course, I probably wasn't paying the full costs this past year.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by hexmiles on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:22AM (#34739916)
I don't know if it applies everywhere, but two factor come to mind: the (somewhat recent) change in energy and gas price did make heat pump a lot more competitive with more traditional heating solutions, and recently there are a lot of economic incentives (at least, here in Europe) to renovate house for energy efficiency, which make solar panel and heat pump very attractive.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by masklinn on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:08AM (#34740594)
> and recently there are a lot of economic incentives (at least, here in Europe) to renovate house for energy efficiency, which make solar panel and heat pump very attractive.

Economic but also legal and geopolitical: fuel oil furnaces are getting restricted or banned, and the combination of climate change, air quality standards, and russian instability makes gas look at lot worse than it did 10 or 20 years back.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by jjtheblunt on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:17AM (#34739842)
Wait till we have Heat Pumps built with Rust!

But seriously i think it’s just that awareness hit a critical threshold so the hysteresis kicks in and articles proliferate. In both cases.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by PaulDavisThe1st on Friday February 10, 2023 @12:14PM (#34742552)
There's really no question that Rust will undoubtedly take over most heat pumps, sooner or later.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by jjtheblunt on Friday February 10, 2023 @03:59PM (#34745768)
:)
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by Maxburn on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:26AM (#34739989)
YES. There is a massive electrification push right now because electric items can be fed from "sustainable" things like wind/dam/solar and don't emit CO or CO2 in operation.

Heat pumps are also inexpensive on initial cost and less expensive than straight AC with gas heat.

They are also low maintenance in comparison to straight AC with gas heat.

Very popular units in southern US.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by bcrosby95 on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:44AM (#34740257)
This hasn't been my experience. I can get an AC unit and gas furnace installed for something like 7k. But a heat pump unit that heats and cools is something like 13k installed. I obviously went with the former.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by Maxburn on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:55AM (#34740423)
That's fascinating and I believe you were subject to some weird market conditions there. Look at the complexity of gas burners vs a reversing valve and electric heat strips and I think you will see what I mean.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by Thlom on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:32AM (#34740928)
I replaced my air-to-air heat pump for 3-4k last year.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by vel0city on Friday February 10, 2023 @07:20PM (#34748003)
The challenge is there aren't a lot of options for heat pumps in many US markets it seems. There's really only higher end units available, so there's no range in prices.

I priced out a heat pump versus just an AC and gas furnace in my area, and it was a similar spread a few years ago for me in Texas.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by PragmaticPulp on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:51AM (#34740372)
The install price is only the start. The total cost of ownership over expected lifetime is the important number for many. That initial 7K installation cost is only a fraction of what you’re going to pay in gas and electricity over the next decade.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by Maxburn on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:58AM (#34740454)
Very true. Simply having gas available to use results in a base bill for service, even if your usage is zero.

And yet what I see time and again is that initial purchase price is the only focus for construction costs, even rehab work. Those budgets are a separate bucket from utility bills so lower priced projects get approval even if utility bills will be higher.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by fullstop on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:00AM (#34740482)
How long do those units last, though, and what is their operating cost over their lifetimes? TCO obviously includes more than the initial cost of the equipment.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by Maxburn on Friday February 10, 2023 @02:12PM (#34744257)
Gas heat probably should be tuned up for clean burning every year or two. A heat pump is generally good for years until something breaks. Both systems need filter changes and coil cleaning, which most homeowners can do themselves.

Couple "fun" things about a heat pump; You will smell burning the first time the electric strips are used every year moving into the heating season, it's just dust burning off. Once you start moving into colder weather you might notice the system changing into defrost mode so it can melt ice off of the outside coils. There's a variety of sounds that accompany this and you might even see a bunch of steam coming off of the outside unit. It isn't smoke and it's normal. Every year there's a flood of 911 calls about this.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by boucher on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:22AM (#34741757)
It's worth mentioning that the Inflation Reduction Act is now providing for substantial subsidies for purchasing heat pumps (and other home electrification projects).

Anyone doing the math today on a similar purchase should really check out how much they can get from the government: https://www.rewiringamerica.org/app/ira-calculator

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by dahfizz on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:19AM (#34739882)
A more plausible explanation is that the we HN-ers are a bunch of nerds and heatpumps are excellent nerd-bait
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by rhussmann on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:29AM (#34740019)
At least in NYC, new installations of gas and oil boilers for building and water heating will be regulated away in favor of electric-heating means (like heat pumps) by 2025: https://www.silive.com/news/2022/12/new-yorks-new-roadmap-to...

This is, of course, the regulation as it stands today; things can always change. Additionally NYC alone likely doesn't account for the attention. But, other metros and municipalities could have similar legislation.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by helen___keller on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:25AM (#34739969)
I’ve been independently interested in heat pumps because I need to replace my old end-of-life system and I’ve been interested if a modern cold-weather mini split system is a better investment. There’s lots of conflicting info I’ve found on if heat pumps perform in freezing weather and at what kind of efficiency.

I’m sure there’s others in my position.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by fullstop on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:34AM (#34740112)
Where do you live geographically? I'm in eastern Pennsylvania and have lived with a heat pump for 20+ years.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by helen___keller on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:18AM (#34740729)
Massachusetts
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by fullstop on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:32AM (#34741926)
A bit colder, on average, than where I live. You might want to look at ground-loop HPs or ccASHPs.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by sbradford26 on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:07AM (#34740573)
So largely I think the confusion stems from there being two major different "types" of heat pumps and they perform very differently.

The first is your conventional type system, this is usually what AC units are in the US. They run at maybe 1 or 2 speeds. These type of heat pumps are common in the southern parts of the US but also will be found paired with a gas furnace in the northern US. Since they don't adjust their output dynamically they tend to start losing capacity/efficiency significantly around 25-30F.

The second is an inverter driven heat pump. You usually find these in mini splits but they can also be found in a standard air handler form factor that would replace a furnace. The inverter allows the compressor to adjust based on demand and exterior temperature to maximize efficiency. This allow these units to operate efficiently down to -13F depending on the unit. Now there will still be some capacity loss at those temps so during the design of the system this has to be taken into account.

For detailed information on the efficiency of heat pumps I would check out NEEPs website. It is a great resource, it will show you capacity and efficiency (COP) of tons of different units across their operating temperatures.

https://ashp.neep.org/

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by kwhitefoot on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:22AM (#34740780)
Heat pumps sold in Norway are claimed to work down to -30°C. See, for instance, the Samsung Nordic Extreme: https://www.elkjop.no/product/hjem-rengjoring-og-kjokkenutst...

I don't know what the coefficient of performance is at that temperature though.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by rayiner on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:25AM (#34740822)
I’ve got a mid-range Amana heat pump and even that has a COP of 2.1 (2 watts of heating per watt used) down to 0F.

Heat pumps require different system design than a traditional setup, where the cooling load is usually the driving force. You might need a bigger heat pump to handle the heating load in very cold weather accounting for the efficiency loss.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by kzrdude on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:16AM (#34739837)
Who do you imagine is pushing, and why?

Don't you want to resist to turn to explanations like this, that require some invisible force to pull the strings? I think there are more realistic ways to imagine this happening.

If for example a pop star is getting a lot of attention, in multiple countries, what is the mechanism behind that? And is it orchestrated?

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by suoduandao2 on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:24AM (#34739944)
Explanations like what? Op didn’t put forward much in the way of hypotheses. If you have a good explanation of the mechanism by which attention accumulates around topics that doesn’t require orchestration it would be interesting to hear, it seems like a poorly understood phenomenon.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by rcme on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:52AM (#34740380)
It’s called: product market fit. When people like your products, they talk about them.

I have heat pumps through a mini split system. I like them so much I’m redoing my entire HVAC to add ducts with heat pump powered heating and AC. They’re kind of a miracle: they produce great heat (way better than a gas-powered furnace), they’re ultra-efficient, and they’re whisper quiet.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by kzrdude on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:10AM (#34740616)
The way I read it, Op was suggesting a flirt with conspiratorial thinking ("someone is doing this") and I wanted to turn to something more rational.

I don't really know how trends and fashions form and haven't thought so much about it. Some aspect of it might look like research into the ising model and phase transitions - small changes in "temperature" everywhere in the mass of people might look like a phase transition in the overall mood.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by atoav on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:25AM (#34739968)
My father has solar and a heat pump. His cummulative heating and electrical cost is practically zero over the year. On many days the solor panels produce more than he can use so he gets money for feeding it into the grid.

If the roof of your house produces enough electricity for the people living it and the heating (and cooling) of all rooms, it is a no brainer to switch to a form of heating that relies on electricity.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by practice9 on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:17AM (#34739849)
The reason is that suddenly everybody understood that Russia is an unreliable partner for their countries energy needs (at least in Europe).

For consumers it's also became clear that being slightly more independent from centralized heating and/or energy infrastructure is a good thing

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by manojlds on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:25AM (#34739961)
Suddenly, as in Crimea didn't happen?
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by roywiggins on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:27AM (#34739993)
Suddenly understood
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by ZeroGravitas on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:24AM (#34740816)
There was a push towards renewables and heat pumps after Crimea too (and before, for general climate change reasons)

There was also push to do the opppsite to neutralise that threat to fossil profits e.g. Bjorn Lomberg the skeptic saying that we didnt have any tech that could replace gas, so the only response to Crimea was to frack or invent totally new tech, not rolling out renewables and heat pumps faster.

"Fracking Could Free Europe from Putin"

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bjornlomborg/2014/06/23/frackin...

> Still, many EU politicians talk mostly about expanding renewable energies as a way of making Europe independent of Russian energy. Connie Hedegaard, the European Commissioner for Climate Action, said the Ukraine crisis should be a “wake-up call” for European countries to make the switch from Russian gas to clean, renewable sources of energy.

> But this simply ignores reality. According to the International Energy Agency (IEA), Europe gets just 1.3 percent of its energy from renewables like solar and wind, whereas it gets about 75 percent from fossil fuels and most of the remainder from nuclear. Even an extremely optimistic scenario from the IEA suggests that by 2035, Europe will only be able to generate 8 percent of its energy from these renewables. Focusing on them is simply populism without realism.

At that point, climate skepticism was strong enough politically to prevail. They tried to use this latest annexation to promote fracking etc. too but it seems to have largely failed.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by mr_mitm on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:26AM (#34739978)
You should expect this impression to become more intense. How else will you heat your home without emitting greenhouse gasses? Electric space heaters are vastly inferior for obvious reasons. Everything else is out because we eventually need to achieve (net) zero emissions. And since there are a lot of gas and oil heaters to be replaced, heat pumps will only increase in demand.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by nicoburns on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:16AM (#34739829)
> Is there a global push to get everyone to switch to heat pumps.

I mean, yes. They're much more energy efficient than the alternatives and will play a key part of removing our dependence on fossil fuels.

> I understand that its for climate benefits but it feels very coordinated.

That seems like a good thing?

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by vintermann on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:29AM (#34740014)
Yeah. If some people came together at Davos or whatever and decided "we need to promote heat pumps!", you can be sure they would mess it up. Consent can maybe be manufactured. Enthusiasm is organic, for good and bad.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by aliqot on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:06AM (#34740572)
It's like you got to the endzone and fumbled with <5yds
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by nicoburns on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:44AM (#34741125)
Agreed that top-down programs aren't always very effective (although sometimes they can be), but would point out that "coordinated" doesn't imply top-down. It could just mean that lots of individual entities are working with each other to achieve a common goal.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by nashashmi on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:18AM (#34739854)
They are not more energy efficient than burning gas.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by nicoburns on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:39AM (#34740179)
Well of course when talking about efficiency you have to specify what you are being efficient with respect to: what's most energy efficient might be different to what's most cost efficient which might be different to what's most carbon efficient.

Cost is going to vary greatly on the electricity and gas prices in your area, so it's hard to give a definitive answer there.

With regards to energy efficiency, my understanding is that heat pumps can be up to 400% (300% typical), which is naively much better than gas which is at most 90% efficient (70-80% typical). This doesn't take into account the extra innefficiency of generating the electricity in the first place, but a quick google tells me coal plants are typically 33% efficient, with combined cycle gas plants being typically being 50% efficient. Even at those levels, heat pumps still look to be coming out ahead to me. And that's not even taking into the possibility of green energy generation through renewables or nuclear.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by zeroonetwothree on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:07AM (#34740576)
There is also up to 10% loss from transmission/distribution. So that makes the two closer though heat pumps still win.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by elil17 on Friday February 10, 2023 @02:31PM (#34744542)
Yes, heat pumps do win. They win even more when you consider that the energy mix is not 100% fossil fuels. Globally something like 15% of energy comes from renewables or nuclear, plus 20-ish % from natural gas which is, as you said, 50-ish % efficient in turbine power plants.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by pjerem on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:36AM (#34740142)
Yes they are. You get more heating from an heat pump running from electricity coming from gas plants than what you get by just burning the gas. Including losses on the grid.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by nashashmi on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:39AM (#34741047)
* * *
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by baxuz on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:20AM (#34741725)
That's the whole point. For most modern systems you get >4x of the energy in heat exchange compared to the energy you put in. You don't produce heat, you exchange it.

https://www.wolf.eu/en-de/advisor/cop-heat-pumps

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by elil17 on Friday February 10, 2023 @02:26PM (#34744461)
I think you are misunderstand where most of that energy comes from. Say I have some refrigerant in liquid form at a low pressure. That refrigerant will have a boiling point of say, -20 degrees F. I use the ambient air, which is say 0 degrees F, to boil the refrigerant into a gas. The internal energy of the refrigerant goes up significantly, but it's temperature does not change. Then, I compress the gas so that it goes up in temperature. This change in temperature does not correspond to a large change in the internal energy of the gas. The same energy is pushed closer together, resulting in a higher temperature[1]. Then, I condense the gas at it's new boiling point, say 100 F, into a liquid. Then you decompress the resulting liquid and the cycle repeats.

Most of the energy is coming from the ambient air, only a small amount of electricity is used to change what temperature that energy is available at.

[1] A very simple mental model you can use to understand the difference between temperature and energy for a gas is that temperature is the number of times the gas molecules bump into each other in a second, while energy is how fast the gas molecules are moving. So if you have a very low pressure gas, even all of those molecules have a ton of energy in the form of motion, the temperature of the gas will be quite low because the gas molecules won't interact often. But compress that gas down to a small volume, and the molecules will bump into each other all the time even though they don't have much more energy.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by gabrielhidasy on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:46AM (#34740278)
They literally are more efficient than burning gas, a good heat pump can do over 300% efficiency (KWs of heat in your house vs KWs of electricity used) while a furnace can only hope to get 100%. Even if the heat pump is fed from gas power plants (which burn gas with about 50-60% efficiency, more if the waste heat is reused), they are still using less gas for the same amount of heat than directly burning it.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by nashashmi on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:37AM (#34741013)
* * *
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by thehappypm on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:50AM (#34741229)
Yes, you might want to do some research on it.

The core idea is that you aren’t using 1 unit of electrical energy to create 1 new unit of heat energy. You are using 1 unit of electrical energy to capture several units of pre-existing heat energy from the environment and pump it indoors.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by sbradford26 on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:51AM (#34741242)
So the term efficiency with heat pumps typically refers to COP Coefficient of Performance. It a measure of how many watts of heat you are able to pump per given watt of electricity used. So 400% would be a COP of 4.0 which is definitely possible with air source heat pumps in milder weather and ground source heat pumps in pretty much any weather.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by Nihilartikel on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:53AM (#34741286)
If I can spend 1 joule to transfer two joules of enthalpy from outside to inside, then that is 200% efficiency.

Burning 1 joule of gas would give you 1 joule of heat in a perfect world. That is what a non pump does.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by vikingerik on Friday February 10, 2023 @12:44PM (#34743032)
Where exactly does that first spent joule go, thermodynamically speaking? Is it also converted to heat within the electromechanicals of the heat pump?
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by SigmundA on Friday February 10, 2023 @12:58PM (#34743158)
Yes so not only are you capturing heat from the environment you are turning electricity into heat in the compressor, both are delivered as heat to the interior. This is an advantage compared to cooling where you must reject both the interior heat and the heat of compression.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by kenmacd on Friday February 10, 2023 @03:32PM (#34745395)
To add to the other answer, if you calculate the absolute limit on performance for heating and cooling using the Carnot cycle, the 'heating' case is always going to be '1' higher than the cooling case, because you also get to use the 'work' heat.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by aaronax on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:54AM (#34741308)
More technically it would be a coefficient of performance of 4, which in some frames of reference is like 400% efficiency.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by SigmundA on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:14AM (#34741652)
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by nicoburns on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:53AM (#34742235)
If you measure the efficiency of heat output relative to the electrical input power, then yes. The trick is that there's actually another input: latent heat in the environment. But given that this is abundant and freely available we don't usually bother to include that in our calculations.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by kortilla on Friday February 10, 2023 @12:01PM (#34742363)
Yes, because a heat pump is taking the heat from the outside environment and moving it into your house. You’re only paying the “transportation cost” and not the actual cost to generate heat. The heat was generated by the sun.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by amiga386 on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:11AM (#34741609)
Sorry for nit-picking, but gas power plants burn 50-60% efficiency when waste heat is reused, compared to 30-40% efficiency with a single cycle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_cycle_power_plant

> (CCGT) plant[s] achieve a best-of-class [...] thermal efficiency of around 64% in base-load operation. In contrast, a single cycle steam power plant is limited to efficiencies from 35 to 42%

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by titannet on Friday February 10, 2023 @01:28PM (#34743638)
If that where there would be no discussion about the switch to heat pumps. But it isn't. In old houses (bad insulation, old radiators) and edge cases ("winter") heat pump are not just inefficient they may not be able to heat the house at all (unless extremely oversized).

This is a huge problem in Europe where a house is expected to last a 100 years, in many areas much more.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by guidoism on Friday February 10, 2023 @02:16PM (#34744310)
Slightly unrelated, I have a friend who moved to the US from Mexico and was asking me about potentially buying a house. He started looking on Zillow with me and his reaction to houses build in the 1950s OMG how can it be that houses are that old and my reaction was wow that's pretty much a brand new house. He was blown away that a huge percentage of houses on the market are from the early 1900s and even late 1800s where we live.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by nicoburns on Friday February 10, 2023 @03:35PM (#34745434)
It's true that good insulation and sufficiently sized radiators are important. But it's not like those things can't be upgraded in existing houses. In fact, if we're talking about energy efficiency then insulating houses should likely be the first action taken.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by SigmundA on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:48AM (#34740314)
They can be, natural gas is about 1000 BTU per cubic foot.

An expensive high efficiency gas furnace might be 95% efficient (most normal furnaces are in the 80's)

1000 x 0.95 = 950 BTU/cuft

A high efficiency natural gas power plant is 60% efficient and a modern high efficiency low temp heat pump can have a COP up to around 2.7 at 17F

1000 x 0.6 x 2.7 = 1620 BTU/cuft

A 40% power pant is still more efficient than a 95% furnace with a 2.7 COP heat pump.

There is obviously more to this, there are some grid losses to account for but has to be compared to piping losses, there is also cost factors and also how much renewable is mixed into your grid supply, but generally once that heat pump is above around 2.5 COP it starts to make sense, this is a no brainer in milder climates which is why I have a heat pump and no gas furnace here in FL even though I have gas to the house for other uses.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by snuxoll on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:26AM (#34740850)
> this is a no brainer in milder climates which is why I have a heat pump and no gas furnace here in FL even though I have gas to the house for other uses.

They're a no-brainer in every climate. Newer heat pumps can handle fairly cold temperatures (-13°F) pretty easily, there may be a loss in efficiency but in the majority of the world it doesn't stay that cold. A few days of lower than normal efficiency, and at worst plugging in a few space heaters if it gets extremely cold for a day or two, does not change the overall math of heat pumps being a better solution.

Hell, that's just me talking about air source heat pumps. No reason for new construction to not use ground source and get better efficiency and not worry about ambient outdoor temperatures.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by nashashmi on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:48AM (#34741189)
Ok! I am genuinely interested in how heat pumps are more efficient. My online search led me to calling heat pumps more efficient when compared to electric heaters. And better in other ways compared to gas burners. But lord's sake, they were all upselling marketing sites for heat pumps.

I am looking for genuine research, and not from paid mouth pieces.

Majority of the comments here seem like agents of heat pump industry. And HN rules forbid me from calling them that.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by snuxoll on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:19AM (#34741721)
Physics. When combusting fuel you cannot get more heat energy out of them than the chemical bonds you are breaking contains, a gas furnace can never be more than 100% efficient, the best commercially available ones are 95%, and a majority that are actually installed are closer to 80-90%.

Heat pumps do not create heat, the refrigeration cycle moves heat from point A to point B. For every KWh of electricity used by your refrigerator, air conditioner, or heat pump, 3-4 KWh of heat energy can be moved where you want it to go.

Even if you have a (comparatively) inefficient combined cycle natural gas power plant that is 50-60% efficient, you're still getting 150-200% efficiency for heating with a heat pump compared to 80-95% for a natural gas furnace.

I live in Boise so we have pretty cheap utilities compared to the national average, but here's some math:

1 therm (~30KWh of energy) is ~$0.72 from Intermountain Gas, the furnace in my rental is 90% efficient, so I actually get 27KWh of heat from every therm I burn.

Idaho power has a tiered tariff for residential customers, with a peak charge of ~$0.098 per KWh during the winter for usage over 2,000 KWh in a month.

Every therm my gas furnace burns costs me as much as ~7.5KWh from the electric utility, but those 7.5KWh can provide me with 30KWh of heat with a quality heat pump, which would require a 100% efficient natural gas furnace to reach. Add in that gas furnaces have a much higher TCO because of maintenance and repair compared to a heat pump, and they're not just energy inefficient in comparison but even just plain more expensive to operate even with incredibly cheap fossil fuels.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by SigmundA on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:08AM (#34741550)
Just do the math, all you need to know is furnace efficiency and COP of the heat pump along with the efficiency of your local power plant. I did that in my post, its not super complicated.

Gas is burned creating a certain amount of heat, in a furnace some is lost to exhaust the rest goes into your house. That is the furnace efficiency.

When gas is burned at a power plant the same number of BTU is released, but it is used instead in a heat engine to create mechanical power which is then turned into electrical power, the rest is lost to exhaust, this is the power plant efficiency.

Heat pumps are over 100% efficient because they capture heat from the environment around your house which is warmed by the sun. So even though more energy is lost in creating electricity than burning directly in your house, this is more than made up for by using the ambient heat around your house, it is essentially solar assisted (in the case of air source).

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by kevstev on Friday February 10, 2023 @03:48PM (#34745605)
Did you watch the video linked on the highest rated post on this thread? The one from technology connections? It explains it all very well.

I am happy you have an open mind, but the fact that you are trying to tear the technology down when you apparently have no idea how it works or what it even is- hopefully you realize that it is also used for air conditioning, and is essentially just an air conditioner running in reverse... I hope this is a learning experience for you.

At the very least it gives me hope that those trying to tear down this technology are just ignorant, I had real suspicions that they were agents of the fossil fuel industry, or this was something Fox News and the like decided to target and is now being parroted.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by sbradford26 on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:56AM (#34741338)
So heat pumps do lose efficiency at lower temperature such as -13F but the much bigger issues is loss of capacity. If you look at the curve of available heating capacity of a heat pump versus the heating needs for your house that tend to be a bit of a mirror image. When it is warmer out your house needs less heat but heat pumps have the highest capacity they will have. As temps drop the house will require more heat while the capacity of the heat pump is dropping.

That isn't to say they cannot work I personally have a heat pump in my house and it worked fine through the -15F weather we got. But it requires careful design work initially. Also you run into simply size constraints where residential heat pumps tend to max out at 5 tons (60k BTUs) typically when furnaces can easily get up into the 100k+ BTUs. Which might require multiple heat pumps and separating existing duct work. But definitely new construction should start designing around these constraints now.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by snuxoll on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:03AM (#34741460)
> Which might require multiple heat pumps and separating existing duct work. But definitely new construction should start designing around these constraints now.

Ductless mini-splits remain an option as well. I'd actually like to see somebody make some ground-source exchanger that ductless heads could connect to, because they're much cheaper to install than a multi-zone ducted system.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by sbradford26 on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:13AM (#34741640)
They make systems like that but they tend to be more commercial systems. You could get a ground to water heat pump then run chilled/heated water to the mini split heads depending on what they are calling for but even that is pushing into commercial territory. And sadly with commercial HVAC comes significantly higher prices.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by elil17 on Friday February 10, 2023 @02:33PM (#34744561)
In cold climates, systems have backup electric furnaces.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by nashashmi on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:46AM (#34741167)
I am in NY. And I think for Florida, a heat pump makes because of a hybrid AC model. Even if electricity is more expensive, the equipment and energy cost of a separate unit is not worth spending.

In extreme climates, gas burning is cheaper. And quite clean. There are some objections because of delivery leaks, but that is a separate concern.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by boucher on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:17AM (#34741696)
As pointed out by several other comments, you're very off base about heat pump efficiency and about natural gas being "clean."

Switching everyone to heat pumps would lower emissions from heating and cooling in the US by 160m tonnes a year [1], which is something like 30-40%.

It's true that upfront costs of heat pumps can be higher, but thanks to the IRA there are huge subsidies available (and further subsidies in many states) which make up most or even all of that difference. The lifetime costs of heat pumps with these subsidies should be substantially lower than high efficiency natural gas furnaces.

[1] https://www.rewiringamerica.org/circuit-breakers-heat-pumps

(Those subsidies, by the way, are one of the reasons "everybody is talking about heat pumps")

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by Nihilartikel on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:50AM (#34741226)
The new order world government will have to pry my wood burning lightbulbs from my cold dead guns!
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by SigmundA on Friday February 10, 2023 @12:38PM (#34742927)
Just to counter your edit:

>But compressing and decompressing is not an energy efficient task. It takes a lot of work. Mechanical inefficiencies are a huge energy consumption. Gas is simply burning fuel. Yes, we should save gas for rainy days. But I hate to say that it is more efficient and cheap. There is no comparison.

You are very mistaken, the energy required to compress refrigerant is less than the energy captured and delivered if COP > 1, which is the point of a heat pump. At COP 1 it is basically heat of compression and equal to a resistive heater at COP greater than 2 the heat pump captured more heat from the environment than used to compress the refrigerant.

I am not sure if you are arguing in good faith, if so here are some of the simplest resources I can find to explain how a heat pump can exceed a furnace in efficiency even when taking power plant and transmission losses into account, with easy to understand graphics:

https://greenbusinesswatch.co.uk/cop-vs-spf

https://energyeducation.ca/encyclopedia/Coefficient_of_perfo...

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/heatpump.h...

This should really be taught and drilled in lower education, the difference between heat and temperature and relationship to power, how heat engines work, etc. This stuff basically makes modern society possible and we will never progress in decoupling our power sources from use of the power which is what electrification allows which allows us to transition away from throwing carbon up in the air for energy.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by Lutger on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:27AM (#34739999)
Just the hivemind I guess, doesn't feel coordinated to me but rather obvious. In my country the waiting time for heat pumps is now over a year. People can't stop talking about energy, the war and their utility bills. Heat pumps are very on topic.

Any reasons to change my mind?

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by notdarkyet on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:27AM (#34739990)
I see this as well and it looks to be multiple people buying in to the campaign, especially here on HN.

Having lived in a new, high end apartment that had a heat pump for both heating and cooling for 3 years, I am very unimpressed with the tech. Running nonstop, couldn't heat/cool above/below a certain threshold. Electric bill very high. Clogged and broke a lot. If the general radiant heat and cooling from being in large building didn't exist, I couldn't see this working halfway decent in any place in the midwest. This might work for areas with less variable temperature ranges but for the midwest USA, not seeing it.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by fullstop on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:32AM (#34740078)
Your high end apartment must have had a low end heat pump installed.

In the midwest a geothermal heat pump would work wonderfully.

Also, they are designed to run constantly in order to maintain the set temperature -- it's not like a natural gas fired furnace where it quickly reaches the set point.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by prottog on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:42AM (#34740227)
> Also, they are designed to run constantly in order to maintain the set temperature

Not all heat pumps are variable-speed like you describe. My own home, built in 2000, has a single-speed heat pump that kicks on 100% or off, like a regular old AC unit.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by fullstop on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:46AM (#34740281)
Right, what I'm trying to say is that it is normal for it to be on 100% of the time when it is cold out. If you are used to gas heat which can turn on for 15 minutes, overshoot the set point, and then be off for the next 45 minutes, a heat pump will seem strange.

Mine is a variable speed unit, but that's not the function that I'm talking about.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by slfnflctd on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:05AM (#34740550)
What's the payback time on something like that for a modest home in a place which can get significantly under 20 degrees (F) or over 95 degrees for weeks or longer? How effective is it at those extreme temperatures when it matters the most, and how does this affect maintenance costs?

Additionally, there are multiple types of restrictions on where geothermal pumps can be installed, and navigating this can add to costs.

I don't see it as a one size fits all solution, there are far too many people for whom the household/company math doesn't add up. However, I agree we should be doing fair comparison against other renewable-friendly options for all new construction. I'm sure heat pumps could win out in a great many situations, and we should use them where they do.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by fullstop on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:50AM (#34741233)
Obviously nobody can answer the long term cost differences between gas and heat pumps, since the cost of natural gas and electricity can change drastically over the lifetime of the unit.

GP's comment was about the tech, though, and not the cost of said tech.

It's absolutely not a perfect solution for all heating needs across the globe, the the technology is far better than GP is suggesting.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by slfnflctd on Friday February 10, 2023 @04:39PM (#34746272)
In my view, natural gas is only competitive due to externalized costs and the slowdown/freeze of nuclear energy deployment. I recognize it's the only option for all kinds of situations (my dwelling heat included), but for anyone thinking forward it should be excluded in future development where possible.

My main concern is the overall long term efficiency & affordability of renewable-friendly solutions, because competitiveness in those areas is what will lead to mass adoption. The point I was hewing toward is that I feel the heat pump advocates and providers need to make it more clear which situations are best suited for that solution and which are not, because it would benefit everyone.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by timerol on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:59AM (#34741388)
> over 95 degrees

Note that a heat pump cooling a building is essentially the same as an air conditioner. So it's more a matter of how efficient the air conditioner you're replacing is. Cooling a house is much easier than heating, because the temperature differences are lower. In your example, cooling 95 F to 70 F is a 25 F difference, while heating 20 F to 70 F is a 50 F difference. The world record for heat is about 135 F, which is the same difference from 70 F as 5 F, a completely normal winter temperature in much of the world.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by notyourwork on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:19AM (#34741718)
The constant running also affords a more consistent temperature because air is continually moving. Decreases the temperature variance throughout the zone. I have a 3 zone heat pump, 2 single room zones upstairs and a main floor with a air handler. We LOVE the setup so far.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by fullstop on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:25AM (#34741789)
Yes, I've been happy with ours and it was a great improvement over the last heat pump that we had.

Habits are hard to break, though, and there's not much value (if any) of lowering the set-point at night during the winter months. People still do it, though, and then the unit is working overtime in the morning to reach the desired set point.

I'm glad that you're happy with your setup!

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by LazyMans on Friday February 10, 2023 @12:17PM (#34742588)
Just to clarify, it is more efficient to lower the set-point in the winter over night. The issue is when your thermostat is set to utilize aux heat if the delta is higher than your set point change in the morning. For example. If you change from 70 to 67 at night. In the morning when the set point goes back to 70, the thermostat is likely configured with an aux delta of 2 or 3 degrees. Meaning every morning the expensive resistive heater is running to raise your temp quickly.

Personally, for my home and climate in the area, I disabled aux heat entirely, unless the temperature is below 0f outside, or if it hasn't reached the set point within 2 hours. Recently had some cold weather and these settings worked well for my home.

I'm using an Ecobee, configurations will vary per thermostat. The big settings for me were using manual staging to configure the temperatures to engage aux, temps to lock it out, etc.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by LazyMans on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:32AM (#34740084)
This is not the common experience, it's just an AC that runs in reverse. It sounds like a bad install/bad equipment.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by PragmaticPulp on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:43AM (#34740244)
Your singular experience is an outlier, not an example of totally normal circumstances.

There is no conspiracy to push broken technology on to the masses. Heat pump technology has come a long way and modern heat pumps are very good at what they do.

If someone installed a heat pump that doesn’t work in the temperature range of your location, they really screwed up. Modern heat pumps can be selected to work down to very low temperatures, and they’re installed with auxiliary heat when necessary. The design parameters aren’t a mystery.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by flakeoil on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:46AM (#34740288)
Also remember that air-to-air heat pumps are overall less efficient and powerful than air-to-water or geothermal-to-water type heat pumps.

Firstly the later typically have a higher power rating.

Secondly, if you can lead water around the house and heat via radiators or floor heating you get a much better efficiency.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by rgmerk on Friday February 10, 2023 @06:35PM (#34747558)
Have you considered that you bought the heat pump equivalent of a Ford Edsel, rather than the tech being fundamentally bad?
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by nashashmi on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:17AM (#34739843)
Heat pumps are the opposite of AC. AC industry is behind this for sure. It is like a paid PR campaign. It is not more economical then gas. So now gas is going to be punished for factors X,Y,Z.

It is coordinated. I wish there is more investigative research into who and why they are doing this.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by mikeyouse on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:14AM (#34741653)
Ah yes, "big AC" is bullying the Oil and Gas industry with their subversive marketing. If only Exxon, BP, and Shell had some political clout they could expose this plot.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by jamiek88 on Friday February 10, 2023 @01:09PM (#34743330)
In this thread you’ve gone form ‘compressors don’t work like that’ to ‘this is all a conspiracy by big A/C’.

You are not engaging with any of the helpful, generous replies, in fact going as far as to say that you wish you could call it ‘coordinated’.

Why are you even here if you think we are all lying shill for big air compressor?

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by WatchdogReset on Friday February 10, 2023 @01:47PM (#34743906)
For the record, I am only trying to make my elearning website more known. There is plenty of other HVAC subject that I would like to share. It's just that Heat Pump where for me an interesting topics to get into the subject but you can have a look at other free courses.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by mhb on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:14AM (#34739807)
That and gas stoves bad.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by mhb on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:29AM (#34740017)
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by rootusrootus on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:17AM (#34739852)
The 'gas stoves bad' movement isn't a push, it's a pull.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by vintermann on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:26AM (#34739988)
I think the underlying reason for it is that lots of engineering types got air quality sensors during corona, and noticed PM levels spiking from cooking. Or just people getting more IAC-conscious in general.

This technology connections YouTuber I've seen pop up in lots of discussions on these topics.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by MrMan on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:23AM (#34739939)
gas stoves are bad
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by endemic on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:40AM (#34741052)
I don't understand why this is contentious. You're burning gas inside your house.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by mikeyouse on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:19AM (#34741713)
That's what is funny to me too -- they're basically phasing out all furnaces and hot water heaters that aren't direct vent (bringing in combustion air from outside) because it's so problematic to have gas-burning appliances in your home. Yet we just burn gas stoves -- some of which are massive without question...

If you were to use all of the burners on this stove on their highest setting, it would consume more BTUs than a 6-ton Furnace! And it just vents into your indoor air: (https://www.homedepot.com/p/Cosmo-36-in-6-0-cu-ft-Commercial...)

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by bluGill on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:40AM (#34742037)
Most commercial stoves require a vented hood. Home depot may not tell you this, but the manual of the stove will.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by mikeyouse on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:50AM (#34742174)
Apologies that link was broken -- but that was a "Commercial Style" stove for a home, not actually a commercial appliance. In any case vents are a really bad solution.. but they're inefficient at removing fumes, are usually undersized and too far from the cooking surface, and most people don't use them because they're obnoxiously noisy when running at the proper speed.

A friend of mine just remodeled their kitchen -- they got all the permits and sign-offs, and their AHJ allowed a gas stove in the island with no venting at all. Inspector told them they should open a window if they were doing a lot of cooking. It's actual madness.

https://i.imgur.com/ApCIyzS.png

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by kortilla on Friday February 10, 2023 @12:12PM (#34742513)
“Solution is bad when you don’t do it!”
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by mikeyouse on Friday February 10, 2023 @12:34PM (#34742874)
Is it a "solution" when it's completely optional and rarely done correctly? This whole discussion reminds me of the 80s TV interviews that made the rounds this week about people complaining the government was infringing on their right to have a beer in the car on the way home from work (https://www.tiktok.com/@cali_nostalgia/video/719704298970805...).

"It's my god given right to poison my family with CO and NOx!"

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by kortilla on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @08:03AM (#34788693)
> Is it a "solution" when it's completely optional and rarely done correctly?

Yes, because it fucking works. This isn’t some network effect thing where everyone has to do it correctly.

It’s like saying diet & exercise isn’t a solution to obesity because it’s completely optional and rarely done correctly. Absolute stupidity.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by JTbane on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:07AM (#34740582)
Gas stoves bad, yes. If you do a modicum of research you can see that they cause indoor air pollution (and most people don't have real hood vents to outside the building).
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by snuxoll on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:39AM (#34741042)
The whole bit about gas stoves I have no doubt is a pretty typical astroturf campaign from the fossil fuel industry. They have shamelessly made up pro-gas nonprofits using fake personas, paid social media influencers to promote gas stovetops, and are likely behind the current "gubmit wants to take away your gas stove" trend that's drumming up online drama.

One doesn't even need to look at climate impact to say gas stoves are bad, but focus the narrative on that one aspect and you can get climate deniers hyperventilating and defending their gas stovetop with statements like "you'll pry my gas stove from my dead hands". But really, economics are going to kill them all the same - induction stoves are dramatically more energy efficient, have the same benefits of fast thermal response, and don't pose a gigantic risk to life and limb every time you turn them on (or leave them off, for that matter).

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by redeeman on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:32AM (#34740067)
topic of discussion: is anyone else concerned that all the new things being clearly pushed hard, regardless of reasons(good or bad), has the common theme of centralizing. In a world where if your heatpump stops working, you die from cold, it would be an awfully sad thing if social credit scores dictated a very low kilowatthour limit. Much more sad than a world where you obtain firewood from some local vendor
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by kevstev on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:37AM (#34740154)
I am not sure the case you are making here- most people who would be switching to a heat pump for heat are almost certainly using oil, natural gas, or propane to heat their homes, all of which require a good deal of centralization.

Those that have the ability to use firewood to heat their homes today can continue doing so if they need to- its not a requirement to close up your chimney permanently to use one.

FWIW I am considering switching to a heat pump, but would still have natural gas fireplaces as a backup.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by PragmaticPulp on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:55AM (#34740427)
> has the common theme of centralizing. In a world where if your heatpump stops working, you die from cold,

Using machinery for heating isn’t new. Virtually nobody in the modern world uses firewood from a local vendor to heat their homes.

These conspiracy theorist angles are baffling. Heat pumps are just another variation of AC, which is already ubiquitous. If people don’t use heat pumps, they won’t use firewood. They’ll use a regular furnace or electric heat.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by pjc50 on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:47AM (#34742124)
> Much more sad than a world where you obtain firewood from some local vendor

A while ago I ran the numbers, and to meet UK electricity demand from wood would consume every single tree in the country in three months.

Limiting that to heating and giving up on industry would stretch that a bit, but the country is fundamentally dependent on imports to stay alive. We can't not be global.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by micromacrofoot on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:54AM (#34742244)
They could also just shut off your gas, heat pumps introduce no newfound ability to be authoritarian that isn't already there.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by triceratops on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:56AM (#34742278)
Did you know that installing a heat pump doesn't magically cause fireplaces in the house to stop working? Or that if you're concerned about being cut off from electricity because of your low "social credit score" the heat pump will run just fine off solar panels and batteries?
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by adrianN on Saturday February 11, 2023 @12:45AM (#34749914)
Yeah, if we could only cut down our population by 20x or so in order to make firewood sustainable again, that would really show Big-Heatpump /s.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by micromacrofoot on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:20AM (#34739900)
It's a great way to lessen the demand on fossil fuels and the power grid.

Manufacturers are obviously pushing, but many utility companies and municipalities are too. Basically the electric car or solar panels of HVAC. It's one of those things where there are a lot of incentives for everyone involved all the way down the line.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by mschuster91 on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:37AM (#34740150)
> Clearly there is a push.

Yeah, tl;dr: fuel price scares and the French nuclear power plant disaster, as well as government regulations.

To expand: most homes traditionally are heated by either burning something fossil (oil, gas, coal), somewhat half-ish renewable (wood pellets, straight chopped wood), by straight electricity (resistive heating) or by heat pumps (air-to-air, ground-to-air, deep-well-to-air aka geothermal). Some homes particularly in urban areas or in close proximity to a large power plant can also be heated by district heating using one of the aforementioned heat sources.

And all of these classes of heaters have their issues:

- Electricity is the easiest of the bunch from a technical point of view, but you're out of luck when the grid fails for whatever reason, you're tied to grid price hikes in some contract models (as people learned the hard way in Texas' last winter spike), there will be fuel burned as part of the generation and frankly resistive heating is wasteful.

- Wood pellet has the problem that the amount of waste (=sawdust) is finite, which means you're chopping down wood that could be used for construction and burning it instead. That is a waste of money and valuable resources when wood is scarce, fine particulate matter causes smell and health issues, and a lot of wood is unethically sourced.

- Solid-wood or coal heaters are difficult to properly fire up - most people fire it wrong (not enough oxygen / too much fuel load), resulting in higher consumption of wood, higher emissions and a danger of soot buildup which is a fire risk. Additionally, many home fires are started by people disposing not-completely-cooled ash or placing flammable objects too close to the oven or exhaust, and still a lot of people die because of carbon monoxide emissions caused by improper handling.

- Oil stinks to hell and beyond, the boilers need an insane amount of maintenance so they don't clog up, you need to ship tanker trucks to homes, there are risks of spillage and contamination, and the same emissions issues of wood apply (plus, oil generates more CO2 than gas per kWh of heat). Also, it's not renewable at all.

- Gas is relatively easy to ship around when there is a gas distribution network in place, it burns relatively clean, but carries an explosion risk and is fossil in origin (at least for the next decades that it will take to build up power-to-gas infrastructure).

In contrast, heat pumps are pretty awesome:

- all they need is a bit of electricity - a good heat pump can achieve up to 4x ratio, meaning it generates 4 kWh of available heat in the home by using 1 kWh of electricity. That also makes off-grid or local generator fallback solutions more feasible - a 20 kW heat-pump boiler needs a 5 kW generator which can be had for a couple hundred dollars instead of a massive generator unit.

- their heat sources (or rather, cold sinks) are renewable - air, local ground loops or deep wells are virtually infinite. That means, as long as your electricity supply is renewable, your heat generation also is renewable.

- Most heat pumps run at 40-ish degrees. That in turn prohibits the use of old-school convection radiators, so most installations with heat pumps tend to use floor heating which needs less energy to achieve a temperature comfortable for humans (our feet are the most sensitive part, but as heat from a convection radiator rises to the top of the room, it needs a lot of energy for a comfortably warm floor).

- they are, particularly when compared to oil heating, extremely small and don't cause emissions

- they don't need much maintenance effort to keep running, and no need for chimney sweepers either

- they don't pose an imminent risk of carbon monoxide poisoning or outright fire

Basically, the only issue heat pumps have is you need specially trained people to install them and they are short in supply at the moment since everyone and their dog got shocked to heaven in the last year of that goddamn war and heat pumps are the objectively best way to heat a home.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by scythe on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:09AM (#34740609)
I'm just annoyed that I was talking about heat pumps for the last five years or so and nobody is giving me any credit for running an international conspiracy.

But seriously, it's just the next fish to fry after electric vehicles became a solved problem. Heating buildings is somewhere around 10-25% of total emissions and probably the largest remaining single factor not directly addressed by switching the electric grid to renewables, so many people concerned about climate change have converged on it.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by achenatx on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:20AM (#34740747)
my friend is building his house and is putting in 4 heat pumps (big house). The problem is we just lost power for 4 days and 2 years ago we lost power for 5 days. He is discovering that electric heat uses massive amounts of electricity and there is no way to get a residential generator big enough to power them all. He might not even be able to power one (they can use in excess of 20kw).

I would never get electrical water heater, stove, and heater for that reason.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by boringg on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:46AM (#34741175)
So this is one of my big concerns - I live in a cold weather country currently. We have power outages once every couple of years. If I don't have back up power my pipes freeze and then i'm out probably > $50k.

I was thinking the solution for me is to put in a heat pump and then run a backup gas generator. But that solution feels like a significant amount of overbuild. I have 3 minisplits already but they aren't valuable in the winter -- where you install your AC units isn't where you would install your heating units .. I.e. the top of my house for AC, the bottom of the house for heat.

Having multiple energy sources to defray risk is helpful.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by bluGill on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:37AM (#34741997)
Heat pumps are great when things are mildly cold. While do work down to -20C or so, efficiency drops off, so you need bigger and bigger units. It often makes sense to have a smaller heat pump that will only work down to -5C (random temperature, a real analysis of your house is required to give a better answer), and then a gas furnace backup for those really cold days. Once you have the gas furnace backup you can run that off of a small generator on the few days you are without power.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by thekingshorses on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:35AM (#34741963)
If there is a power outage, you can't run your natural gas heater either. It needs fan to run.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by triceratops on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:52AM (#34742217)
But you can run a furnace fan off a diesel generator.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by p1mrx on Friday February 10, 2023 @12:40PM (#34742972)
Why diesel? If you need natural gas to run the furnace, it might as well run the generator too.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by triceratops on Friday February 10, 2023 @12:42PM (#34743001)
Maybe "fossil fuel powered generator" would've captured better what I meant.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by danans on Friday February 10, 2023 @12:25PM (#34742704)
> my friend is building his house and is putting in 4 heat pumps (big house). The problem is we just lost power for 4 days and 2 years ago we lost power for 5 days. He is discovering that electric heat uses massive amounts of electricity and there is no way to get a residential generator big enough to power them all. He might not even be able to power one (they can use in excess of 20kw).

If he's building the house new, he should strongly consider investing in designing the building envelope in a way that 20kW heat pumps aren't required. It's very possible, especially with new builds.

The models to follow are Passive House [1] and Pretty Good House [2]. There are many examples of large houses built to those standards in cold climates that use a heat pump that only draws 2kW, which could easily be powered by a generator or backup battery. This assumes that by "big house" we mean something still below ~3500sqft and not some kind of mansion.

The basics are to get the building air leakage below 1ACH50 (3-5x better than most codes, but not hard in a new build), and eliminate thermal bridging by using thick exterior insulation around the building perimeter.

1. https://passivehouse.com/

2. https://www.prettygoodhouse.org/

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by Silverback_VII on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:23AM (#34740801)
preparations for nuclear winter.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by bilsbie on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:30AM (#34740905)
Easier to turn off people’s electric than gas when they don’t follow the social rules.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by timbit42 on Sunday February 12, 2023 @10:06PM (#34769701)
Not when they have solar.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by burkaman on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:36AM (#34740988)
Yes, there is currently a coordinated push by the entire world to prevent excessive climate change.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by kavalg on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:41AM (#34741072)
I am a happy user of a DYI air source heat pump, that I've been using for 8+ years, mostly for heating in a residential building.

First, it must be told that an off the shelf AC unit is technically speaking also a heat pump. There has been this distinction (and confusion) between AC units and (mostly) ground source heat pumps because, you know the latter actually have a water 'pump' to circulate fluid in the ground piping. Ground source heat pumps are far more expensive that AC units and are nearly impossible to retrofit in existing buildings. Hence, companies came up with a 'middle ground' solution, called air source heat pumps. In these devices the outdoor unit is much like an outdoor unit of a split type AC, but the indoor unit is basically a refrigerant/water heat exchanger with a water pump and some sensors around it. There is also a monoblock type of air source heat pump, where all components are in the outer block and you only connect the piping.

IMHO, the reason air source heat pumps are becoming popular now is because their price went down considerably during the last 5 years, whereas the price of fossil fuel heat sources has gone up. Back then when I had to choose between a gas boiler and a heat pump, the boiler was around EUR 2, off the shelf heat pump (24000 btu) was around EUR 7k and for the DIY option I paid a total of EUR 2.3k. The reason for this was that the market for air source heat pumps was underdeveloped and companies (e.g. Mitsubishi, Daikin, Fujitsu) were charging a lot more in this market segment (rich people with new houses). At some point in time, people started realizing the benefits of a heat pump over a normal AC (less units, no noise, nor air currents, better efficiency, can produce hot water, heating is decoupled from the source and more sources, such as solar can be seamlessly plugged in). Manufacturers albeit slowly responded to this demand.

Now with solar power gaining more traction, they are becoming a very obvious choice.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by elil17 on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:42AM (#34741089)
Well of course it is being pushed, though I would not necessarily call it coordinated.

Companies that sell heat pumps are advertising hard. It's an easy sell for them with rising gas prices.

The US government is "pushing them" by offering tax credits for heat pump systems. This is part of a plan to reduce pollution, improve energy independence/energy security, and save citizens money on their heating bills. No secret there - politicians and public servants are excited about this and they are talking about it. They are also offering tax credits for other high efficiency heating systems, but not that many people are looking at those tax credits because buying a new high efficiency gas furnace doesn't make that much sense when you could buy a more efficient heat pump instead.

Many individual people are also talking about them because they are a great way to help the environment and save money at the same time.

And I think a lot of people just think they are cool technology as well.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by boringg on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:55AM (#34741330)
I think this is probably the right answer. It keeps popping up everywhere.

I'm always a skeptic on when something gets super hyped. In this case it's more use-case specific that makes me skeptical - majority of people its 100% fit.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by elil17 on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:04AM (#34741476)
I also tend to be skeptical when I see something hyped, but I work in this space and I can say that this tech is really the best option for most residential applications.

It's old tech, it's been around since the 1800s. The only thing that has changed is that heat pumps have gotten cheap and energy has gotten expensive.

There are applications where heat pumps cannot replace boilers - in industrial processes where high temperatures are required or tremendous capacity is needed intermittently.

However, unless your temperatures are routinely below about -20 F, a heat pump is the best choice (and even if temperatures occasionally drop below that, heat pumps are still an excellent choice because those extreme temperatures might only last for a handful of hours out of the year, during which insulation or a cheap electrical resistance heater can keep you warm).

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by billjings on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:13AM (#34741636)
Here's a couple of reasons:

1. The American market has a lot of incorrect perceptions of heat pumps. Debunking these makes for great viral content! 2. The IRA introduced big incentives for various electrification expenses.

The incentives are the big thing, but the public interest/controversy part is why some enhancements like heat pumps and kitchen electrification ("don't take away my gas stove!") are going more viral than, say, electric vehicles (technology connections guy has some good EV content, but it's not doing quite the same numbers)

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by sophacles on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:18AM (#34741698)
What is IRA in this context? I don't think heat pumps have anything to do with retirement nor the political status of Norther Ireland.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by aaronbrethorst on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:32AM (#34741928)
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by billjings on Friday February 10, 2023 @12:00PM (#34742342)
Yep, the Inflation Reduction Act is what I meant. It came into effect this year.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by sophacles on Friday February 10, 2023 @07:08PM (#34747906)
Thanks for the clarification (both of you!).
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by tekla on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:20AM (#34741730)
Its a fairly easy to parse typo of IRS.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by sophacles on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:26AM (#34741804)
Oh that makes some sense, I guess I wasn't thinking about them since they aren't the ones who change tax law.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by heisenbit on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:24AM (#34741779)
Continuous improvements in technology, growth spurt in electric motors, demand gap for automobile motor part suppliers having to seek out related industries, cheap summer electricity via solar panel meet kick in the behind by fossil fuel energy prices.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by dsfyu404ed on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:41AM (#34742053)
> What is going on? Is there a global push to get everyone to switch to heat pumps. It seems that there is heat pump content everywhere. Clearly there is a push.

Based on the lack of political dick swinging I don't think this is a "push".

They're legitimately good technology for certain use cases, I'm sure the manufacturers are pushing them. They are also The New Hotness(TM) and they are billed as environmentally friendly. Both those attributes are valuable by themselves to some people.

I think this is more a case of a grassroots-originated circle jerk within certain demographic bubbles.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by peterhunt on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:51AM (#34742194)
It is coordinated. In many states there are huge incentives [1] to disconnect your existing home from (and not connect new construction to) the natural gas infrastructure.

This is great for the climate but air source heat pump technology simply doesn't work well in cold climates. Most heat pumps in the United States have 100% efficiency down to about 20 degrees F. Below that they "lose efficiency."

What most people don't realize is that "lose efficiency" = blows cool or cold air. So if you live somewhere that routinely gets that low you are likely either going to be really cold, or have to engage aux heat (often natgas or oil-based heating or electric resistance heating).

Additionally, even when operating at 100% efficiency they don't blow air as hot as traditional heating sources. So if you have a poorly insulated room, large space, or even just an unusually cold day, it will often have a hard time keeping up.

I have found that I only use my air source heat pump a little bit during the fall in New England, and I have to run aux heat throughout basically all of winter. Talking to my friends in the region who have heat pumps, they all have similar experiences.

I think we are all very eager to get off of fossil fuels but the technology just isn't there yet, and I am concerned that most people installing heat pumps today don't know the risks associated with them in extreme weather events. If your heat pump can't keep up and you didn't install aux heating you can't live in your house, your pipes will freeze, and you will generally have a bad time. If you did install and use aux heating, you may be surprised at how expensive and inefficient resistive electric heating is as it may need to run all the time.

[1] Massachusetts will pay you $10k to install air source heat pumps and disconnect from natural gas https://www.masssave.com/en/residential/rebates-and-incentiv...

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by nicpottier on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:55AM (#34742271)
This is FUD. I live in climate zone 5 in a 100 year old house that has high heating demands and our air source heat pump has been awesome, even when it dipped into the negatives briefly this year. Our heat pump is over 100% efficient down to 0F.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by peterhunt on Friday February 10, 2023 @05:36PM (#34746948)
What type of heat pump do you have out of curiosity?
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by nicpottier on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:30PM (#34748973)
Mitsubishi HyperHeat
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by snozolli on Friday February 10, 2023 @04:59PM (#34746520)
Most heat pumps in the United States have 100% efficiency down to about 20 degrees F. Below that they "lose efficiency."

Most things that are already installed are worse than the latest technology that's available.

That's not an argument against the latest technology.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by peterhunt on Friday February 10, 2023 @05:36PM (#34746942)
I’m talking about the ones sold in the United States in the last few years. Mine is a Carrier manufactured in 2022
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by kodt on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:57AM (#34742296)
1. There was recently a statement released by a member of the Consumer Product Safety Commission saying they were considering regulating indoor pollution from natural gas stoves. This lead to a bunch of outrage and claims that Natural Gas was going to be banned at a Federal level. https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2023/01/1...

2. Cites like NYC have implemented bans or limits on new gas installations, and it has been proposed at the state level as well. Other cities such as Chicago have had conversations regarding this issue, at least enough for it to get into the news and spark minor outrage.

Because of these recent controversies there has been much talk about Heat Pumps and whether or not they are able to function efficiently or sufficiently in sub zero temperatures regularly seen in the upper Midwest or North East.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by danans on Friday February 10, 2023 @12:38PM (#34742939)
> worth looking at who the winners are and what the trade offs are.

The winners are consumers, the effort to reduce GHG and particulate emissions, and the drive toward energy independence (whether at the national, local, or hyper-local level).

The losers are fossil fuel extraction industries, because due to the high COP of heat pumps, far more heat is delivered per unit of energy consumed, even if that energy ultimately comes from burning natural gas at a power station. Also, the source of the energy itself gets disintermediated, since electricity can come from multiple sources, including renewables.

The tradeoffs are (for now): Higher upfront installation cost (tempered by the IRA, and potentially lower operating costs), availability of the equipment (supply chain stuff), and long delays in installation due to lack of qualified installers (and resulting high costs).

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by guidoism on Friday February 10, 2023 @02:09PM (#34744211)
It would be great if this was coordinated. Ideas that are good for people usually don't get a very intelligent effort promoting them compared to really bad ideas that make a few people really rich.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by WatchdogReset on Friday February 10, 2023 @03:19PM (#34745226)
My two cents, I just tried to show this free course on my site, because heat pumps are an interesting topic. There is also others courses like this : https://hvac-learning.com/courses/air-handling-units-technol...

Heat pump as every heating or cooling devices, have pro and cons. This is where HVAC knowledge is nice to have, in order to have the best solutions. For example, the maintenance / obsolescence are an under estimated point when it comes to environment and savings

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by rgmerk on Friday February 10, 2023 @06:34PM (#34747545)
Governments are influenced by what other governments are doing in a variety of ways.

At a basic level, governments are full of people who have an interest in public policy, and they read publications that cover public policy matters from around the world. If the EU brings in a policy that encourages an expansion in heat pump usage, it'll probably get written up in The Economist (and a bunch of more specialised publications), and, guess what, bureaucrats and political staffers in the UK, the US, Canada and so on will read it.

There are also institutions specifically devoted to developing policy advice for national governments, and in the renewable energy space the big one is IRENA. And guess what, they're telling their member governments that, hey, if you want to screw over the Russians, meet your greenhouse targets, and save your citizens a bunch of money, heat pumps are the way to go. And as those things happen to be basically true, national governments are falling over themselves to implement policies to encourage it to happen.