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Re:How a Heat Pump Works by nashashmi on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:18AM (#34739854)
They are not more energy efficient than burning gas.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by nicoburns on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:39AM (#34740179)
Well of course when talking about efficiency you have to specify what you are being efficient with respect to: what's most energy efficient might be different to what's most cost efficient which might be different to what's most carbon efficient.

Cost is going to vary greatly on the electricity and gas prices in your area, so it's hard to give a definitive answer there.

With regards to energy efficiency, my understanding is that heat pumps can be up to 400% (300% typical), which is naively much better than gas which is at most 90% efficient (70-80% typical). This doesn't take into account the extra innefficiency of generating the electricity in the first place, but a quick google tells me coal plants are typically 33% efficient, with combined cycle gas plants being typically being 50% efficient. Even at those levels, heat pumps still look to be coming out ahead to me. And that's not even taking into the possibility of green energy generation through renewables or nuclear.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by zeroonetwothree on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:07AM (#34740576)
There is also up to 10% loss from transmission/distribution. So that makes the two closer though heat pumps still win.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by elil17 on Friday February 10, 2023 @02:31PM (#34744542)
Yes, heat pumps do win. They win even more when you consider that the energy mix is not 100% fossil fuels. Globally something like 15% of energy comes from renewables or nuclear, plus 20-ish % from natural gas which is, as you said, 50-ish % efficient in turbine power plants.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by pjerem on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:36AM (#34740142)
Yes they are. You get more heating from an heat pump running from electricity coming from gas plants than what you get by just burning the gas. Including losses on the grid.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by nashashmi on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:39AM (#34741047)
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Re:How a Heat Pump Works by baxuz on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:20AM (#34741725)
That's the whole point. For most modern systems you get >4x of the energy in heat exchange compared to the energy you put in. You don't produce heat, you exchange it.

https://www.wolf.eu/en-de/advisor/cop-heat-pumps

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by elil17 on Friday February 10, 2023 @02:26PM (#34744461)
I think you are misunderstand where most of that energy comes from. Say I have some refrigerant in liquid form at a low pressure. That refrigerant will have a boiling point of say, -20 degrees F. I use the ambient air, which is say 0 degrees F, to boil the refrigerant into a gas. The internal energy of the refrigerant goes up significantly, but it's temperature does not change. Then, I compress the gas so that it goes up in temperature. This change in temperature does not correspond to a large change in the internal energy of the gas. The same energy is pushed closer together, resulting in a higher temperature[1]. Then, I condense the gas at it's new boiling point, say 100 F, into a liquid. Then you decompress the resulting liquid and the cycle repeats.

Most of the energy is coming from the ambient air, only a small amount of electricity is used to change what temperature that energy is available at.

[1] A very simple mental model you can use to understand the difference between temperature and energy for a gas is that temperature is the number of times the gas molecules bump into each other in a second, while energy is how fast the gas molecules are moving. So if you have a very low pressure gas, even all of those molecules have a ton of energy in the form of motion, the temperature of the gas will be quite low because the gas molecules won't interact often. But compress that gas down to a small volume, and the molecules will bump into each other all the time even though they don't have much more energy.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by gabrielhidasy on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:46AM (#34740278)
They literally are more efficient than burning gas, a good heat pump can do over 300% efficiency (KWs of heat in your house vs KWs of electricity used) while a furnace can only hope to get 100%. Even if the heat pump is fed from gas power plants (which burn gas with about 50-60% efficiency, more if the waste heat is reused), they are still using less gas for the same amount of heat than directly burning it.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by nashashmi on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:37AM (#34741013)
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Re:How a Heat Pump Works by thehappypm on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:50AM (#34741229)
Yes, you might want to do some research on it.

The core idea is that you aren’t using 1 unit of electrical energy to create 1 new unit of heat energy. You are using 1 unit of electrical energy to capture several units of pre-existing heat energy from the environment and pump it indoors.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by sbradford26 on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:51AM (#34741242)
So the term efficiency with heat pumps typically refers to COP Coefficient of Performance. It a measure of how many watts of heat you are able to pump per given watt of electricity used. So 400% would be a COP of 4.0 which is definitely possible with air source heat pumps in milder weather and ground source heat pumps in pretty much any weather.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by Nihilartikel on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:53AM (#34741286)
If I can spend 1 joule to transfer two joules of enthalpy from outside to inside, then that is 200% efficiency.

Burning 1 joule of gas would give you 1 joule of heat in a perfect world. That is what a non pump does.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by vikingerik on Friday February 10, 2023 @12:44PM (#34743032)
Where exactly does that first spent joule go, thermodynamically speaking? Is it also converted to heat within the electromechanicals of the heat pump?
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by SigmundA on Friday February 10, 2023 @12:58PM (#34743158)
Yes so not only are you capturing heat from the environment you are turning electricity into heat in the compressor, both are delivered as heat to the interior. This is an advantage compared to cooling where you must reject both the interior heat and the heat of compression.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by kenmacd on Friday February 10, 2023 @03:32PM (#34745395)
To add to the other answer, if you calculate the absolute limit on performance for heating and cooling using the Carnot cycle, the 'heating' case is always going to be '1' higher than the cooling case, because you also get to use the 'work' heat.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by aaronax on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:54AM (#34741308)
More technically it would be a coefficient of performance of 4, which in some frames of reference is like 400% efficiency.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by SigmundA on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:14AM (#34741652)
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by nicoburns on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:53AM (#34742235)
If you measure the efficiency of heat output relative to the electrical input power, then yes. The trick is that there's actually another input: latent heat in the environment. But given that this is abundant and freely available we don't usually bother to include that in our calculations.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by kortilla on Friday February 10, 2023 @12:01PM (#34742363)
Yes, because a heat pump is taking the heat from the outside environment and moving it into your house. You’re only paying the “transportation cost” and not the actual cost to generate heat. The heat was generated by the sun.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by amiga386 on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:11AM (#34741609)
Sorry for nit-picking, but gas power plants burn 50-60% efficiency when waste heat is reused, compared to 30-40% efficiency with a single cycle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_cycle_power_plant

> (CCGT) plant[s] achieve a best-of-class [...] thermal efficiency of around 64% in base-load operation. In contrast, a single cycle steam power plant is limited to efficiencies from 35 to 42%

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by titannet on Friday February 10, 2023 @01:28PM (#34743638)
If that where there would be no discussion about the switch to heat pumps. But it isn't. In old houses (bad insulation, old radiators) and edge cases ("winter") heat pump are not just inefficient they may not be able to heat the house at all (unless extremely oversized).

This is a huge problem in Europe where a house is expected to last a 100 years, in many areas much more.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by guidoism on Friday February 10, 2023 @02:16PM (#34744310)
Slightly unrelated, I have a friend who moved to the US from Mexico and was asking me about potentially buying a house. He started looking on Zillow with me and his reaction to houses build in the 1950s OMG how can it be that houses are that old and my reaction was wow that's pretty much a brand new house. He was blown away that a huge percentage of houses on the market are from the early 1900s and even late 1800s where we live.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by nicoburns on Friday February 10, 2023 @03:35PM (#34745434)
It's true that good insulation and sufficiently sized radiators are important. But it's not like those things can't be upgraded in existing houses. In fact, if we're talking about energy efficiency then insulating houses should likely be the first action taken.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by SigmundA on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:48AM (#34740314)
They can be, natural gas is about 1000 BTU per cubic foot.

An expensive high efficiency gas furnace might be 95% efficient (most normal furnaces are in the 80's)

1000 x 0.95 = 950 BTU/cuft

A high efficiency natural gas power plant is 60% efficient and a modern high efficiency low temp heat pump can have a COP up to around 2.7 at 17F

1000 x 0.6 x 2.7 = 1620 BTU/cuft

A 40% power pant is still more efficient than a 95% furnace with a 2.7 COP heat pump.

There is obviously more to this, there are some grid losses to account for but has to be compared to piping losses, there is also cost factors and also how much renewable is mixed into your grid supply, but generally once that heat pump is above around 2.5 COP it starts to make sense, this is a no brainer in milder climates which is why I have a heat pump and no gas furnace here in FL even though I have gas to the house for other uses.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by snuxoll on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:26AM (#34740850)
> this is a no brainer in milder climates which is why I have a heat pump and no gas furnace here in FL even though I have gas to the house for other uses.

They're a no-brainer in every climate. Newer heat pumps can handle fairly cold temperatures (-13°F) pretty easily, there may be a loss in efficiency but in the majority of the world it doesn't stay that cold. A few days of lower than normal efficiency, and at worst plugging in a few space heaters if it gets extremely cold for a day or two, does not change the overall math of heat pumps being a better solution.

Hell, that's just me talking about air source heat pumps. No reason for new construction to not use ground source and get better efficiency and not worry about ambient outdoor temperatures.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by nashashmi on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:48AM (#34741189)
Ok! I am genuinely interested in how heat pumps are more efficient. My online search led me to calling heat pumps more efficient when compared to electric heaters. And better in other ways compared to gas burners. But lord's sake, they were all upselling marketing sites for heat pumps.

I am looking for genuine research, and not from paid mouth pieces.

Majority of the comments here seem like agents of heat pump industry. And HN rules forbid me from calling them that.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by snuxoll on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:19AM (#34741721)
Physics. When combusting fuel you cannot get more heat energy out of them than the chemical bonds you are breaking contains, a gas furnace can never be more than 100% efficient, the best commercially available ones are 95%, and a majority that are actually installed are closer to 80-90%.

Heat pumps do not create heat, the refrigeration cycle moves heat from point A to point B. For every KWh of electricity used by your refrigerator, air conditioner, or heat pump, 3-4 KWh of heat energy can be moved where you want it to go.

Even if you have a (comparatively) inefficient combined cycle natural gas power plant that is 50-60% efficient, you're still getting 150-200% efficiency for heating with a heat pump compared to 80-95% for a natural gas furnace.

I live in Boise so we have pretty cheap utilities compared to the national average, but here's some math:

1 therm (~30KWh of energy) is ~$0.72 from Intermountain Gas, the furnace in my rental is 90% efficient, so I actually get 27KWh of heat from every therm I burn.

Idaho power has a tiered tariff for residential customers, with a peak charge of ~$0.098 per KWh during the winter for usage over 2,000 KWh in a month.

Every therm my gas furnace burns costs me as much as ~7.5KWh from the electric utility, but those 7.5KWh can provide me with 30KWh of heat with a quality heat pump, which would require a 100% efficient natural gas furnace to reach. Add in that gas furnaces have a much higher TCO because of maintenance and repair compared to a heat pump, and they're not just energy inefficient in comparison but even just plain more expensive to operate even with incredibly cheap fossil fuels.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by SigmundA on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:08AM (#34741550)
Just do the math, all you need to know is furnace efficiency and COP of the heat pump along with the efficiency of your local power plant. I did that in my post, its not super complicated.

Gas is burned creating a certain amount of heat, in a furnace some is lost to exhaust the rest goes into your house. That is the furnace efficiency.

When gas is burned at a power plant the same number of BTU is released, but it is used instead in a heat engine to create mechanical power which is then turned into electrical power, the rest is lost to exhaust, this is the power plant efficiency.

Heat pumps are over 100% efficient because they capture heat from the environment around your house which is warmed by the sun. So even though more energy is lost in creating electricity than burning directly in your house, this is more than made up for by using the ambient heat around your house, it is essentially solar assisted (in the case of air source).

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by kevstev on Friday February 10, 2023 @03:48PM (#34745605)
Did you watch the video linked on the highest rated post on this thread? The one from technology connections? It explains it all very well.

I am happy you have an open mind, but the fact that you are trying to tear the technology down when you apparently have no idea how it works or what it even is- hopefully you realize that it is also used for air conditioning, and is essentially just an air conditioner running in reverse... I hope this is a learning experience for you.

At the very least it gives me hope that those trying to tear down this technology are just ignorant, I had real suspicions that they were agents of the fossil fuel industry, or this was something Fox News and the like decided to target and is now being parroted.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by sbradford26 on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:56AM (#34741338)
So heat pumps do lose efficiency at lower temperature such as -13F but the much bigger issues is loss of capacity. If you look at the curve of available heating capacity of a heat pump versus the heating needs for your house that tend to be a bit of a mirror image. When it is warmer out your house needs less heat but heat pumps have the highest capacity they will have. As temps drop the house will require more heat while the capacity of the heat pump is dropping.

That isn't to say they cannot work I personally have a heat pump in my house and it worked fine through the -15F weather we got. But it requires careful design work initially. Also you run into simply size constraints where residential heat pumps tend to max out at 5 tons (60k BTUs) typically when furnaces can easily get up into the 100k+ BTUs. Which might require multiple heat pumps and separating existing duct work. But definitely new construction should start designing around these constraints now.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by snuxoll on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:03AM (#34741460)
> Which might require multiple heat pumps and separating existing duct work. But definitely new construction should start designing around these constraints now.

Ductless mini-splits remain an option as well. I'd actually like to see somebody make some ground-source exchanger that ductless heads could connect to, because they're much cheaper to install than a multi-zone ducted system.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by sbradford26 on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:13AM (#34741640)
They make systems like that but they tend to be more commercial systems. You could get a ground to water heat pump then run chilled/heated water to the mini split heads depending on what they are calling for but even that is pushing into commercial territory. And sadly with commercial HVAC comes significantly higher prices.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by elil17 on Friday February 10, 2023 @02:33PM (#34744561)
In cold climates, systems have backup electric furnaces.
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by nashashmi on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:46AM (#34741167)
I am in NY. And I think for Florida, a heat pump makes because of a hybrid AC model. Even if electricity is more expensive, the equipment and energy cost of a separate unit is not worth spending.

In extreme climates, gas burning is cheaper. And quite clean. There are some objections because of delivery leaks, but that is a separate concern.

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by boucher on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:17AM (#34741696)
As pointed out by several other comments, you're very off base about heat pump efficiency and about natural gas being "clean."

Switching everyone to heat pumps would lower emissions from heating and cooling in the US by 160m tonnes a year [1], which is something like 30-40%.

It's true that upfront costs of heat pumps can be higher, but thanks to the IRA there are huge subsidies available (and further subsidies in many states) which make up most or even all of that difference. The lifetime costs of heat pumps with these subsidies should be substantially lower than high efficiency natural gas furnaces.

[1] https://www.rewiringamerica.org/circuit-breakers-heat-pumps

(Those subsidies, by the way, are one of the reasons "everybody is talking about heat pumps")

Re:How a Heat Pump Works by Nihilartikel on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:50AM (#34741226)
The new order world government will have to pry my wood burning lightbulbs from my cold dead guns!
Re:How a Heat Pump Works by SigmundA on Friday February 10, 2023 @12:38PM (#34742927)
Just to counter your edit:

>But compressing and decompressing is not an energy efficient task. It takes a lot of work. Mechanical inefficiencies are a huge energy consumption. Gas is simply burning fuel. Yes, we should save gas for rainy days. But I hate to say that it is more efficient and cheap. There is no comparison.

You are very mistaken, the energy required to compress refrigerant is less than the energy captured and delivered if COP > 1, which is the point of a heat pump. At COP 1 it is basically heat of compression and equal to a resistive heater at COP greater than 2 the heat pump captured more heat from the environment than used to compress the refrigerant.

I am not sure if you are arguing in good faith, if so here are some of the simplest resources I can find to explain how a heat pump can exceed a furnace in efficiency even when taking power plant and transmission losses into account, with easy to understand graphics:

https://greenbusinesswatch.co.uk/cop-vs-spf

https://energyeducation.ca/encyclopedia/Coefficient_of_perfo...

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/heatpump.h...

This should really be taught and drilled in lower education, the difference between heat and temperature and relationship to power, how heat engines work, etc. This stuff basically makes modern society possible and we will never progress in decoupling our power sources from use of the power which is what electrification allows which allows us to transition away from throwing carbon up in the air for energy.