Countries with high paperwork and bureaucratic burden are famous for also being highly corrupt. This is probably not a coincidence. Likely all the excess paperwork makes it easier to hide what's really going on, easy to provide roadblocks for those who don't pay, and easier to generally hide bad activity in a sea of noise.

I would replace “countries” with “systems”. You can see this in the US with government contracting or health billing. Tons of paperwork but totally opaque and prone to corruption.

This has nothing to do with physical paperwork (See Japan which runs on paper forms even today; most hospitals in US are paperless but they're far from efficient), but the underlying policies that dictate the requirements and how the approval process must be conducted, number of parties/agencies/teams involved and the incentives put in place to make sure it gets done within a certain timeframe (QA controls). Some governments are better than others.

Paperwork really isn't to blame here because even if everything was digital, the people behind the operation and the policies that govern their behavior is still the same. The problem isn't the interface between citizens and the government, it is the backend source code of the government.

You are all barking at the wrong tree.

Paperwork and bureaucracy conducted face-to-face is completely different in its capacity for bribery, cronyism, and discriminatory behaviour outside of the official system.

Automated systems can be quite awful (original research: Spain) but neither paper or digital systems would officially state the human factors involved in turning them over. There's simply less opportunity for these human factors in more automated digital systems.

Particularly if you consider the on-ramp to corruption: being a little more lenient and helpful to those who are more polite than others blends into being a little more lenient and helpful to those who you consider "on your team" blends into blends into being a little more lenient and helpful to those who give favors in return blends into being a little more lenient and helpful to those who offer cash. Only then the artificial roadblocks begin. Fully developed corruption would likely find ways to continue after digitalization, but the ramp to get there would be so much less inviting.

During the pandemic I paid for a concierge care doctor and man it was the most convenient experience I’ve ever had with a medical provider. Cut out the insurance, he had a nurse and one office assistant and virtually no paperwork. Guy actually had brain power leftover to know who I was and what my situation was. I feel really bad for anyone wanting to become a doctor in this day and age, it seems absolutely grueling. I don’t know why anyone would go through all that trouble.

Wow, please share more details. What city and what was the total cost compared to other options? I have heard this exists in very rich places in New York City, but it costs a pretty penny!

The paperwork is an attempt(usually misguided) to stop the corruption. The idea is that if you have to account and document all actions you will have act in the proscribed manner and not in a way that benefits you.

This usually fails for the reason you posted. I am not really sure how you are supposed to stop corruption once it gets rooted in your society. It is a vile and subversive menace that turns every one into a criminal, preying on their fellow man. A very unpleasant environment to live in.

The best article on corruption I have seen.(if you have time for an hour long power point presentation )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9i47sgi-V4

The video talk about Russian military handing out Million dollar contracts to companies registered weeks before the tender.

Well, guess what, the exact same thing happened in UK for PPE contracts:

"Within weeks of the company’s incorporation on 12 May 2020, PPE Medpro was awarded contracts worth £203m to supply millions of masks and gowns."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jan/07/michelle-mo...

It's actually kind of disturbing how there are basically only a handful of countries on the planet without systematic corruption. Maybe there are none. Perhaps it's a human trait.

Some types corruption are worse than others.

With the typical Western "overpay for a modern tank/gun/piece of equipment by a factor of 2" style you still get a modern tank/gun/piece of equipment in the end.

From what I heard, for example, in Russia you do that but then the quartermaster goes and sells half of your equipment off on the black market and the grunts sell off the other half and replace it with something much inferior.

The first kind of corruption is bad and should be rooted out, but the second type is much more destructive as can be seen in Ukraine right now. Secrecy at all levels and for minor details, as well as "encouragement" from the highest levels of politics for this kind of theft are core ingredients.

> With the typical Western "overpay for a modern tank/gun/piece of equipment by a factor of 2" style you still get a modern tank/gun/piece of equipment in the end.

Many studies have been done and this isn't really a thing. The government isn't paying 2x (or 100-1000x as is often the rumor) for a given thing. What they're paying is the price of certification and guarantees. If the law requires that a procured item be guaranteed to NOT catch fire in an oxygen-rich environment (because it could be used in space) then the price of that product--no matter how seemingly mundane--is going to be more expensive than if you "just bought it from the store". Because someone had to setup a complicated bureaucracy and certification testing process to cover that product and actually carry out the testing.

There's also product availability guarantees that add to the price of government-procured things: A lot of stuff the government buys must continue to be manufactured for the effective life of the product in the government. This means that companies supplying stuff need to stock and maintain replacement parts for lifespans that would normally be vastly longer that a typical product cycle. They may even need to keep people trained at making and repairing these goods. That costs a lot of money!

If you're looking for corruption in Western governments it's in the form of paying political campaigns (or entire parties) to get specific laws passed or not passed. That's the big one that causes basically all the major problems in Western politics.

To a lesser extent there's also corruption involving decision-making bureaucrats getting hired by the industries they regulated after their time in office is over (this should be illegal) and politicians with insider information trading stocks. Taking direct bribes also does happen but it's rare because it's too easy to get caught and the consequences are high (high risk, low reward most of the time).

If you look at the required operating range (temperature and humidity) for most mudane item sold to the US military... it is INSANE. Plus, the amount of "QA" done on the final product ensures very low failure rates. All of this costs a LOT of money. I see the same issue with nuclear power plants built in highly industrialised countries with strong environmental protection laws.

100%, I’m originally from a really corrupt country. They steal the money, and then still refuse to do the work. Result: no money, nothing works.

Here in the West, there is much less corruption to begin with, but the work gets done for the most part. Result: things work

I would go as far as to say that a little bit of corruption is healthy. It adds flexibility.

For example: you don't want to register your neighbor's daughter for taxes just so that she can babysit your child once or twice. That is crazytalk. And yes, a lot of countries make sure that small payments don't require registration or taxes. This was just a quick example to make the point, sometimes the general law is just not applicable to a local event and it is better that everyone ignores it.

But this is like cholesterol. The right amount in your body makes everything better. Too much and you are in deep trouble.

Well for small payments we need a simple tax box, no country is doing that, all countries require a ton of paperwork for each new “employee”.

The problem is that the revenue leakage for babysitters and other under the table services is lower than the scaled grifts that an “easy box” would generate.

Why not just have one payment system to rule them all run by the government that is required by law for all payment of employee-driven services? Businesses could save a TON of money on payroll systems and HR.

A government-run system--presumably--would take care of withholding the correct amount of taxes and also making sure the business/person paying a salary never has to worry about running afoul of the law (having the IRS or equivalent) come after them.

In France there are more than a hundred mandatory numbers on the paysheet. Each class of worker has its own retirement/health/subhealth/old-age-health/unemployment/family benefits. Each has a different rate.

I realise that you are making an off the cuff example, and I agree with your basic point. However, in the places I have lived, the babysitter would be an independent contractor and thus responsible for her own taxes. Moreover, it is unlikely that she would be making enough money to exceed the personal exemption, and therefore, it is unlikely that she would owe taxes anyway. An argument could be made that she should collect and remit sales tax or VAT where applicable, but again, there are usually thresholds below which there is no obligation.

My point is that well run, non-corrupt, systems tend to have exemptions to make everything sane and reasonable. If these exemptions don't exist, you can believe that it is because the system is corrupt and not because they are trying to stop corruption.

> I would go as far as to say...

In the UK, it wasn't corruption. These people were paid money for products, they delivered those products, the price paid wasn't excessive.

The UK has an independent auditor that found no evidence of corruption, and that (where product was delivered incorrectly) it was due to problems with contract specs.

Afaik, there is only one case where a person was directly involved in politics and was related to a vendor, they went to great lengths to hide their connection to a vendor, repeatedly lied to civil servants who questioned them, and is now being charged criminally (for some reason, the person who made the original comment about the UK chose not to mention it, it was PPE Medpro).

The issue was that at the start of Covid, the govt called up all their suppliers asked for PPE, and they said they didn't have any. So the govt started using suppliers who often had other businesses that imported product from China (and had to set up new companies). The level of profit on the contract was normal, the price was higher but that was related to the pandemic (how quickly forgotten, in the UK there was literally no PPE for most of 2020, you couldn't buy masks at any price).

So the flexibility already exists...the UK is not corrupt, things happen naturally. Corruption is only necessary where there are supply-side bottlenecks due to politics (i.e. Qatar, Russia, India).

I think your argument boils down to don't assign to corruption what could more easily be assigned to incompetence.

Which I think is a fair point but does raise some questions about the competency of the civil servants and politicians we trust with a fairly large chunk of our income.

Yes, I think we should do that (there are massive issues with both the civil service and civil service procurement, Scotland has significant issues here...these are probably bigger than with politicians) but we have a system with robust checks and balances (for example, ministers don't make procurement decisions...if a firm was fast-tracked, they delivered something...that doesn't mean there were no issues, but ministers aren't writing cheques to people).

How does this rule work when people are both currupt and incompetent, life is the case with the Russian military? On the rare occasion anyone competent is involved, incompetence can be feigned.

Private Eye has covered this. The level of profit was not normal. Some of the companies were making 50%. And the government had two lists of companies when they were awarding contracts. The priority list was for the acquaintances of ministers and MPs.

It smells very bad.

50% what? And Private Eye has also covered the NAO report, which found no evidence of this, and the GLP court case which attempted to prove the price paid was excessive and failed to do so.

No, the priority list wasn't. To approve a vendor through the normal process would have taken years, the fast track process was created to get PPE quicker than normal. I believe all but one person was unrelated to the Tories, the only person who wasn't (as I have said) repeatedly lied about their connection to the vendor, and is now facing criminal charges.

Seriously? The high court found that the operation of the priority list was unlawful [1]. You can reasonably argue that they needed to move quickly, but that doesn't explain why some companies were getting special treatment.

And the 50% is profit. Obviously.

[1]: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59968037

Obviously...profit margin, return on equity, return on capital, return on assets, return on investment, operating margin, gross margin, net margin...to be so ignorant that it is obvious.

The reason they got special treatment was because of the speed. That was what the priority list was for - "establishes that presence on the high priority lane did not confer any advantage at the decision-making stage of the process", what you have linked me is exactly what I was just told you. The award wasn't unlawful, the govt did not report on the detail of the contracts within the time period required...that was unlawful, but a function of the process (again, the contracts were awarded outside the usual process so all the information wasn't gathered...the NAO conducted a full audit of the contracts, iirc, before the contract details were reported in the public database).

What equity? What capital? What assets? What investment? These mostly weren't PPE manufacturers or even PPE suppliers. Often they were little more than drop shippers with a 50% profit margin. It is that simple.

And the fact that companies were treated the same when they were assessed doesn't alter the fact that being assessed sooner rather than later is a massive advantage.

Why are you so hard at work trying to come up with excuses for obvious sleazy dealing?

There are companies that made no upfront investment, ordering equipment from China without any understanding of what they are ordering, any relevant experience, and huge quantities fo PPE had to be destroyed because it was not fit for purpose and did not meet regulatory requirements. Most of the companies contracted had no experiece of dealing with medical equipment ever before. I personally know people who have experience in the industry and government passed them up for contracts in favour of the shitsters that were chosen.

I agree. Look at the map on this page. Plenty of orange and red!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index

> It's actually kind of disturbing how there are basically only a handful of countries on the planet without systematic corruption. Maybe there are none. Perhaps it's a human trait.

More disturbing (to me) is how easy it is to eliminate corruption in any given area - without any brutality or anything else extraordinary. Just setup the process correctly, incentivize workforce - and the same people who were building roadblocks to milk money will switch to earning money by helping you get your task done.

There was a “widely known in narrow circles” libertarian setup in Troitsk, Russia - of all places. The setup was related to the topic of the original post - registration of businesses. The post-Soviet business registration law was rather liberal. The amount of documents needed was not zero, but doable. But there was a catch - businesses should have been registered locally, and each locality was allowed to add their own requirements on top of federal ones.

You can imagine what followed. Our own city, the I was a counsel member was: just prove to us (“us” in reality means -a clerk) that your business will be useful to the city - and we will register you. But there was a small city named Troitsk, home to some physics scientific institutions, which elected a libertarian mayor, Gennady Lebedev. The city council decided not to ask for any additional documents and just register any business that complied with federal guidelines.

But - any clerk has any good intention in his own hands, right? Mayor said: register everyone? but I am too busy, come tomorrow, and by the way go to… uhm police station, do a background check on yourself for me, I feel a sudden need to be extra cautious in your case. Why not? Seen it everywhere, like you’ve said.

Here comes handy a proper construction of checks and balances:

1. Salary for registration office clerks was paid from a percentage of the (federally fixed) registration fee, nothing else, no safety cushion. If you delay an application- your salary will be delayed too. In the starving Russia that percentage created a - potentially - extremely well paying job.

2. The clerk will be fired if he asked - not just for any unnecessary documents, but just for asking any legally unnecessary question.

3. The clerk will be also fired if he accepts a registration that does not confirm to federal guidelines.

So clerks have the incentive to work fast, help people correct their documents to comply with the federal law and the opportunity for any additional “milking” was too risky and simply not worth it. In short time - small Troitsk had more businesses registered than any other small city in Russia, and comparable to Moscow. Imagine a tax base they’ve got?

First-hand account by Gennadi himself here (in Russian): http://www.sapov.ru/g_v_lebedev/texts/gvl1992_12_troitsk01.h...

>2. The clerk will be fired if he asked - not just for any unnecessary documents, but just for asking any legally unnecessary question.

>3. The clerk will be also fired if he accepts a registration that does not confirm to federal guidelines.

Fired by whom? Who is in charge of checking this? How do you ensure that the clerk isn't just accepting false businesses and giving a percentage to whoever's above? On its face this system doesn't seem to cure a culture of corruption to me

you can audit a small number and know. sure the clerk can risk one, but statistically they are caught with enough.

By "you" you mean a regular Russian citizen? Who is in charge of the clerks under this system, and what ensures that they aren't as corrupt as before?

I mean the mayor. You can also hire independent auditors. As a person just keep electing mayors unrelated to the last and hope they expose each other.

> How do you ensure that the clerk isn't just accepting false businesses and giving a percentage to whoever's above?

What do you mean by a “false business”? Here in the US they have not asked me anything except Articles of Incorporation (and $800 a year). Federal regulations in Russia required much more paperwork. But the libertarian city council in Troitsk just deliberately didn’t care to add anything to the pile. Bad documents - it was actually a problem for the business being registered. If federal regulators caught a discrepancy- the business will be in a huge trouble. So checking the documents- it was nothing more than a service provided by a city council to the company being registered. If the documents were inconsistent - the business will complain.

This setup really worked, as I said in the original post. It’s not a theoretical suggestion.

It is not a human trait. It is a property of money. Interest is a bribe to keep money in circulation. There is an incentive to pass this bribe onto someone else. Why is it a property of money? Because money has a liquidity premium versus any other asset and no holding costs. It is rational to ask to be compensated for giving up this liquidity for the face value of money. Money is a payment network that introduces costs for businesses that accept it. Businesses must be close to consumers and open whenever consumers want to spend their money. They must also have a variety of uniform products and if it has to store them it will have to pay for storage costs. Think about it like being an on call employee. You must be ready to respond at any moment and this flexibility is worth a certain amount of money.

Now, you could call the national money system to be a public service provided by the government (and indirectly by private businesses).

If you were to issue your own money what would it's liquidity premium be? It would be very low to be sure because barely anyone accepts it.

So, the holders of money effectively own a free subscription to this public service. If they lend out money, they will obviously charge a fee in proportion to the liquidity premium. This fee is included in the interest rate.

The borrower is now paying for the liquidity premium, the cost has been fully internalized and the problem is gone right?

The problem is that the liquidity premium that is part of the interest rate is erroneously calculated as the cost of capital. It is not, it is the cost of liquidity.

Now, things will get very strange. When the borrower spends his money, he will be obligated to pay the subscription fee, the cost of liquidity, even though he no longer has the money and he is no longer benefiting from the liquidity services. What this means is that the money system constantly screws over people who use money as a medium of exchange and rewards those who sabotage it. It will look as if those who "save" money will be rewarded for their frugality and "moral" behaviour and those who are in debt are being rightly punished for their unsustainable and and "sinful" behaviour.

Now imagine if private households all follow this strategy of selling more than they buy and saving and lending the rest. There must be another sector that earns less than they spend and accumulates debt though borrowing. The government is forced to avoid austerity at all costs. It must become the "immoral sinner" that spends in excess to shield the private sector.

If you want to solve the problem you would have to make buying and lending symmetric. Lending passes the cost of liquidity onto someone else which is in theory ok but only if buying also passes the cost of liquidity onto the seller so that no liquidity premium accrues to the lender. He will pay a liquidity premium and earn liquidity premium which then zeroes. The only one who then collects the liquidity premium is the central bank that issues the money.

The problem with this is that the interest rate on cash would be negative and paper technology isn't advanced enough to calculate and display a dynamically changing face value. It isn't some conspiracy by a cabal, it is actually an engineering problem that originates from our historical and cultural attachment to cash. Humans aren't evil bribe collecting monsters, they are just in a rationality trap that is difficult to escape.

> I am not really sure how you are supposed to stop corruption once it gets rooted in your society.

Well, assuming that all people are roughly the same as each other, the answer would be to adopt traditions and systems from countries that aren't corrupt. Attempt the sisyphean task of convincing people that giving power to the middle class is going to lead to a better future.

As your comment reveals, the instinct when confronted with corruption is ... centralise power and try to force it to be used for good. That doesn't work, so try to convince people to decentralise power. Political and bureaucratic elites are regularly revealed to be corrupt, so stop making them the bottleneck for handing out the "allowed to run a business!" stamp. Centralising power just gives corrupt people a target to aim for and increases the blast radius when they worm their way in to a position.

How you convince people to do the sensible thing and decentralise power is beyond me though. The instinct to push power to a single leader is remarkably strong in humans.

incredibly naive answer from someone who probably haven't lived in a corrupt country and deal with the process on a daily basis.

But the parent comment is right.

The knee jerk reaction against corruption is to centralize power: "X institutions are corrupt, we will give more power to this candidate who demonstrated to be a good person, so he will vanish those institutions and saves us fron corruption".

That's what Bolsonaro did in Brazil. In his campaign, he demonstrated to be a good christian and a person of faith. In Brazil, people strongly associate that with being a good person.

Guess what happened after.

> That's what Bolsonaro did in Brazil. In his campaign, he demonstrated to be a good christian and a person of faith. In Brazil, people strongly associate that with being a good person.

Wasn't Bolsonaro elected because the previous president and his main opponent (Lula?) was so corrupt that he even landed in jail, which is a rare event for a prominent politician?

> Guess what happened after.

Care to explain to non Brazilians?

In a nutshell, he decided that streamlining things by eliminating courts and elections would help him achieve his vision.

Ah, a good king! The ever-popular fairy-tale character.

I don't know if Lula committed corruption, but he apparently wasn't more corrupt than the judge who tried him, who became Bolsonaro's Minister of Justice. All the charges were dismissed eventually because of court bias. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luiz_Inácio_Lula_da_Silva

Thanks for the info. I don't follow Brazilian politics, but somehow the picture of a corrupt ex-president going to jail persisted in my head, since that was the news we were getting here back in the time.

I couldn't understand why our news in Germany was pretending that a guy convinced of corruption would be a saviour of Brazil against the evil Bolsonaro.

That highlights one of the main problems in our societies. We just accept information served to us by our governments without much checking. Either because we don't care about every topic, or because we don't have a means to actually check.

When the baseline of corruption is high enough and those who judge you are equally or more corrupt, convictions for "corruption" are a weapon from those who do not want a specific someone on the government rather than real intention of reducing corruption.

Simplifying, it's like this: If the road to presidency is corrupt, you either become also corrupt (on a varying degree) or stay as one of those parties with no more than 1% of the votes. But then, there's a pact of silence between cronies. And those who are accused of corruption are the ones that either went too far or went against powerful people in the government.

I take all those trials with a grain of salt.

This reminds me of why I hate when government agencies excuse an overly broad rule by saying they "won't prioritize enforcement" against favored/minor actors. Eg [1].

[1] https://www.axios.com/2022/09/13/us-treasury-department-torn...

Lula was condemned in 3 different courts. Not unanimously because the higher court judges disagreed about increasing his sentence by a small amount or a lrge amount.

Al the cases were dismissed because a new law was passed that created a new court and said every case like Lula's should be judged only on that new court.

I am a fan of the Singapore anti-corruption method of paying bureaucrats a lot of money. That way they don't have to have corruption side hustles and you can attract good talent to these positions. Somehow this is more unpopular than widespread political corruption.

I'd be sceptical given just how greedy corrupt bureaucrats can be.

There's not much to stop a crook being both officially well paid and totally corrupt.

Yes, but the position will be taken by a honest guy already.

Why?

Ah, you have a good heart to give them the benefit of the doubt but remember these aphorisms:

A fish rots from the head down.

and

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

and

Nothing disinfects better than sun light.

IMHO they all apply when dealing with public servants in unchecked positions of power.

According to transparency international, Singapore is one of the least corrupt countries on earth. If a politician could make several million dollars a year just from his job, you could attract major corporation CEO caliber people. Otherwise, why would a highly talented person want to deal with untangling that mess?

This is the very famous in economics theory of Becker and Stigler. The high pay isn't so that they don't need side hustles, it is to make the (small) chance of being discovered and losing their job painful. You pay much above market wages, people will not risk losing their job.

Is it true? Well, maybe. From Van Rijckeghem and Weder (2001):

> ... we find evidence of a statistically and economically significant relationship between relative wages and corruption.... While economically significant, the relationship, nevertheless, implies that a large increase in wages is required to eradicate corruption solely by raising wages... The relationship between wages and corruption is not found in regressions with country-fixed effects which points to ineffectual wage policy in the short run...

I haven't found much better evidence than that, though there is Di Tella & Schargrodsky (2004) with a detailed study on a hospital.

It feels similar to the sometimes unintended consequence of having more legislation only serving to entrench the incumbents by making it hard for new players to enter. In a couple of African countries I am familiar with it is the same story. An endless series of papers and stamps and signatures that are supposed to stop corruption but really just serve as an opportunity to be corrupt. I am so paranoid now of not having the right paper I tend to store all papers issued by a government official.

This is a popular misconception. Paperwork is basically created as part of job being done by the government employee. This employee is hired due to connections and the paperwork created to justify the job. The pointlessness makes people exert the tiniest amount of power they have, like reddit mods. The monetary corruption is more related to salary which is related to well being of economy.

For example, during British Raj almost any British who could, got a job to move these papers in India. India inherited that machinery and hasn't moved to economical right yet. The current government is trying but you can read how it is a bad government in western media since it came to power. The corruption in government allows foreign interference so of course.

- unhappy Indian

Raj era ICS was much smaller, Congress and Nehru created a lot of the bureaucracy

Do you have any stuff I could read up on this?

You are, I am sorry to say, mistaken. The Raj era was huge. There is very old article (https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1908/10/the-new...).

<blockquote>But the government is as complete a bureaucracy as that of Russia.</blockquote>

The British Raj kept creating more and more bureaucracy paid for taxes exacted by causing famines, increasing in frequency and intensity. This system was inherited by Nehru and Congress. They were socialists so they increased bureaucracy but they didn't increase corruption - independent India has not seen a famine caused by taxes even in the direst of times.

Perun has been making some of the best videos on Youtube since the start of the Ukraine invasion. Mostly on how military procurement works. It sounds like a dull topic, but when you start to understand the intricacies and the stakes involves it becomes fascinating. Absolutely recommend this channel.

@loudmax wasn't totally clear, but I understood what he was pointing to: Perun made a video about how corruption can destroy military procurement. And, possibly, why the Russians are doing so poorly in Ukraine. It was a terrific powerpoint slide video.

It is funny because it is the exact opposite of what you should do if you want to stop corruption.

Deregulation is the best cure for corruption, because it makes the gatekeepers obsolete. There would be no reason to bribe them because you don't need their approval in the first place.

The podcast "The Rest Is Politics" did an interesting interview with the Prime Minister of Albania recently, where he made the argument that the best way to deal with corruption is to get rid of the paperwork altogether, and basically make government services so easy to access that corruption and bribery wasn't necessary in the first place. So he'd been putting a lot of work into digitising as much as possible, making corruption effectively much more difficult, but also much less necessary in the first place.

This sort of thinking also prevents some kinds of scams. For instance there are web sites that masquerade as British government sites for paying road tax/vehicle tax and charge fees that the official site does not. Similar sites scam people out of money for making ESTA visa applications to visit the US

In Norway this road fund fee is collected automatically by the insurance company. This is obviously easier for the user (zero paperwork), less work for the state, and prevents scam artists from duping people.

And back on the subject of registering a company: in Norway this is done online and takes minutes.

Prescribed, not proscribed

Absolutely. Also, in paperwork superpowers, oftentimes the only ways to get things done are by resorting to what global consensus evaluative norms view as corruption, and a significant form proportion of what goes on frankly is corruption of corruption of the parasitical criminal kind... but there's also a great deal of routing around dysfunctional nodes in the system with legitimate intent on all sides.

Interpersonal networks and middlemen routers evolve over time into parallel tracks of shared understanding about how to achieve mundane process flows and solve problems when the official channels are broken.

Is Japan the exception?

Not really - Germany is equally infamous for its obsession with paperwork and bureaucracy (unlike India, Germany still used fax)

To my knowledge, Japan's Yakuza used to be highly involved with the government. That's basically just a rumor though. I don't have any details. The rumor also says that this is no longer really the case anymore.

I cannot answer about the original rumor, but I can say in the last ten years there has been a dramatic (economic) fall for the Yakuza. Slowly, the Japan gov't has passed tighter and tighter domestic money laundering laws -- taxes, building / business permits, banking, etc. Many times I have been asked to sign a form stating no connection with "anti-social forces". The Japan gov't is putting the economic equivalent of the "sleeper hold" on Yakuza. You hardly see them now (in visibly obvious forms) except the dodgiest places. I never see anyone with a missing half their pinky finger. (Yes, it is real / weird / scary.)

Corruption at the government level is rampant in Japan

From my experience with both countries, surprisingly, Japan is more paperwork oriented than India. For some reason, they really want things in hard-copy, too.

The difference, and it's a major one, is that paperwork does not slow the pace of work in Japan. Once papers are there, progress is usually instantaneous.

Other way around.

I wouldn't consider Germany and Switzerland that corrupt.

Ahem. We're talking about a country where a chancellor that pushed for building a gas pipeline from a foreign country went straight to the board of the foreign company running that pipeline after ending his term as chancellor.

Corruption is everywhere, it's just on different levels. Usually in more "developed" (I don't like that word) countries you see corruption on the highest levels, and people actually get away with it.

The way you word it makes it sound like "the corruption in developing countries is low-level, whereas in developed countries it's high-level". In reality, the corruption in developing countries is on all levels, whereas it's mostly only happening at a higher level in developing countries.

I wouldn't say so. To get the appropriate doctor to check my brother's broken arm and shoulder sooner than in more than a month (he needed surgery within 3 weeks max to avoid permanent damage) we had to employ personal contacts and gifts. I live in EU and this happened this summer.

in The US recently a commissioner at The FDA got offered a high exec position at Pfizer. Nobody says anything about that...

There's literally an entire political party dedicated to ridiculing Democratic nonsense during the pandemic.

Which party is that? The Republicans?

Gottleib was the FDA commissioner under the Trump administration, though.

This isn’t about a particular political party.

Even the much hated fauci was a career bureaucrat under numerous administrations, of both parties.

> We're talking about a country where a chancellor that pushed for building a gas pipeline from a foreign country went straight to the board of the foreign company running that pipeline after ending his term as chancellor.

Yeah, and long after that they decided to build a second pipeline (Nord Stream 2).

And before that, they've been received the same gas from the same foreign company over the ex-SU Ukrainian pipelines.

And five years later we will likely see Turkish pipelines (still bearing Russian gas) prolonged to Hungary, from where it will reach Germany once again.

And that foreign company isn't even running those Nord Stream pipelines - they were largely German, due to legislations requiring separation of the pipeline operator and the supplier.

Don't underestimate how much Germany had profited from all the cheap gas and infrastructure investments from the said foreign country, up until they managed to loose it all just for the sake of political appearance and no real substantial win.

I wonder if we would some day see Scholz in some American LNG company for which the nation now has to pay order of magnitude more, than it ever paid to Russia.

It is another league, not like back home in Portugal, where everyone does everyone little "favours", you cannot even get into some hospitals without a little help.

That's just run-of-the-mill corruption like you would find anywhere else. Every country has this. Politicians will be politicians.

It hardly supports the thesis above. Germany is not rotten to the core by corruption. It's not a constant hindrance to someone trying to get things done.

Oh, corruption still exist, but most people are too poor to play in that league. Compare that to "developing country corruption", where you can often ... ahem ... prematurely show your gratitude towards an official for as little as 20 bucks.

Sure, but it is another league, not like back home in Portugal, where everyone does everyone little "favours", you cannot even get into some hospitals without a little help.

How many times are you going to copy-pasta this exact same comment? Quick search shows three times. Keep it up. Great work.

I care for the lazy readers that don't bother to read all comments, as means to find out why I made the top comment.

Congratulations you aren't one of them.

Switzerland is far less bureaucratic than Germany.

There was a saying "if I look at myself I hate myself, if I compare myself I love myself"

Only if has improved in the last 20 years since I lived in Geneva.

At least for Germany... we're not overtly corrupt: you don't need to bribe policemen to get out of fake charges or traffic stops, you don't need to bribe city officials for building permits.

But at the large scale, we are absolutely a corrupt nation: our former Chancellor Schröder sold us out to Russia, there have been dozens of millions euros worth of (shockingly ruled legal) corruption during the pandemic, the large companies ("Deutschland AG") have an extremely cozy relationship with almost all parties in Germany, not to mention corporate donations and sponsorship of party gatherings (except far-right AfD whom no one serious wants to donate money to and far-left Linke who refuse to take corporate donations out of principle).

Another classic is regulatory capture.

Oh that new building code or electrical code just so happens to only be fulfilled by using the latest (patented) product by company X?

Well it's the state of the art, we can't build below that standard anymore.

Or union labor. I needed some electrical work on a new house, but there's no electricians available for months. Hanging out with a contractor friend, I mentioned that the state law says "the homeowner OR a licensed electrician", and he reacted like doing it myself meant wiring the house with dead orphans or something. I've done electrical work, I just make more money in software so I'm not licensed, but that is somehow even worse because I'm depriving the union electricians of work. So now its a secret I take to my grave apparently.

The rule does make sense from a public safety point, because untrained people can do a lot of mistakes in electrical wiring. If you as the homeowner fuck it up and cause a fire, well that's on your own fault. If a licensed electrician fucks it up, their insurance pays for damages. If Joe Random fucks up their neighbor's electrical wiring, chances are high he has no insurance and now the homeowner is stuck with a burnt-down house.

True, for building permits, either fast or out of the usual and other edge cases, you don't need to bribe people, you need to know the people in charge very well.

EDIT: Nobody wants to donate overtly to the AfD, that's why they had already multiple investigations into their finances and donations. A large part of which came from Switzerland. They do have those donation scandals in common with the CDU and CSU, those received anonymous donations in cash in briefcases. And Schäuble, who ended up as Finance Minister in the federal government later, got away with, I kid you not, "I do not remember that briefcase containing 100,000 bucks" (emphasize from me). So, it seems all parties in Germany are corrupt, some more than others, with the exact degree of corruption directly proportional to the time in actual power.

You wrote: <<the large companies ... have an extremely cozy relationship with almost all parties in Germany>>

This is true in most highly industrialised countries. Can you name any where this is not true? I don't know any.

Another way to think about it: What is the polar opposite? "the large companies ... extremely unhealthy / combative relationship with almost all [political] parties". That sounds like the bad old days in 1980s India. Most economies would be a wreck if that were true.

I have dealt with bureaucracy in Italy and in Switzerland and if you think Switzerland has bad bureaucracy, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Same with Germany. It's slow and analog, but it produces the desired outcome fairly reliably.

If you follow the law to the letter, and you don't get what you want, the mere threat of hiring a lawyer will get it sorted.

The only issue is the speed. I see people lose their job offer before they even start, because the immigration office is too slow.

They aren't, but there's definitely some present at the top. With enough money on the table, how could it be otherwise? Others have mentioned gas, but there's also BaFin/Wirecard: https://newrepublic.com/article/162084/weird-extremely-germa...

Almost forgot about that one... I wonder how they are going to contain the fallout from this to some low level BaFin employees and Wirecard's leadership. because it will be contained, nobody went to jail for things like the 2006 FIFA World Cup for example, or the various defense contracts in the last decade, or...

In the finance industry, BaFin is widely regarded as slow moving, out-of-date, and incompetant. Note that I did not use the term corrupt. Do you really think some BaFin staffers got bribes from Wirecard not to investigate? I doubt it.

Just google Franz Josef Strauss for some history on German corruption. Followed by a quick search on how exactly the government sourced face masks during COVID (same political part basically).

For Switzerland, well, a quick search for money laundering gives you all the information you need.

EDIT: Both the FIFA and the IOCI, probably the most corrupt organizations on earth, are having their seats in Switzerland.

Yeah but that isn't like back home in Portugal, where everyone does everyone little "favours", you cannot even get into some hospitals without a little help.

Your two orgs are not part of the Swiss gov't. Nor is the United Nations. On the whole Swiss society, business, and its gov't has very low corruption.

I checked his Wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Josef_Strauss

I cannot find the word "corruption" anywhere. What am I missing?

Weapons deals with saudi arabia, the Starfighter, the Spiegel affaire (more an abuse of power than corruption), none of this is mentioned?

Edit: Both, the Spiegel affaire and the Lockheed bribery scandal are mentioned.

Every new piece of paperwork that requires an additional face-to-face hand off or brings in a new entity provides another avenue for corruption to occur and a place for money to disappear.

I've had employees (in Brazil) who don't ever claim reimbursement on personal expenses because if their paycheck varies too much their bank freezes their funds (in the name of preventing money laundering) and then the employee has to go to the bank and bribe someone to get the funds unfrozen. Just showing the cause for the variation in payroll doesn't cut it. As the employee puts it, every requirement to show up in front of an official for anything requires a bribe.

How do explain doing business in Japan and Korea? They are famous for stamps, applications, and exceedingly complex rules and regulations. Yet, there are relatively low corruption. I heard Germany and Austria are also very heavy on paperwork and bureaucracy. They essentially have zero obvious corruption.

Corruption is a weird thing. Why do some countries have more of it than others -- holding GDP per capita constant? I cannot explain it. Look at the United States -- "googols" of money spent to influence lawmakers. It cannot be healthy and looks like legalised bribery in comparison to other highly developed democracies.

the corruption business is very similar to racket. the threat being making you lose indefinite amount of time (instead of violence). as a business you have deadlines and not meeting them would make you lose money. sometimes losing money can be deadly to the company, that's why people unwillingly participate in corruption.

the business model of corruption is : 1- slow the process as much as you can 2- some people will have deadlines and will be willing to pay to meet them 3- profit

the slowness is there on purpose, to be able to provide quick process as a paid service

Japan being a notable exception.

No, it's there. Look at the scandal around the assassination of Abe and the Unification Church. The church has had the main party of Japan bought and paid for for decades.

If you have lots of paperwork, it means you are dealing with lots of different departments so lots more chances of encountering corruption.

In the article, the author needs to chase dozens of different bits of paperwork. Quite a few there were no problem. But quite a few incompetent, corrupt, or both. Now, how about a system where you submit one application in one place, and if other departments need to know or collect fees or approve it is the responsibility of the submission point to pay or collect approvals? One desk is held responsible.

I remember buying a train ticket in Goa. This involved showing the passport and filling out multiple forms. It was pretty crazy.

That reminds of a story about an Indian couple travelling Europe. SO, obviously, within the Schengen countries you do not need additional visas, something foreign to said couple. So, they crossed Eu border by train and ended up in another country. Confused over what to do next, they talked to the next police officer they found, because the couple was sure they couldn't just continue their journey without any further control. Explanations didn't work, so the easy solution was to use an official looking, but totally irrelevant, stamp to put on the back of their train tickets (in order to not cause confusion with the tickets or official passports). Source: I know the police officer in question.

How things have changed. Maybe 30 years ago I got stuck in Gibraltar for a few days having returned by ferry from Morocco, because the airport was closed due to weather. No problem for most, as they just bus passengers to the bigger airport in Spain. But a problem for us, because we had run out of entries on our Schengen States visa. It also used to catch a lot of people out on the trains, with people not realizing their passports would be checked mid journey when crossing the borders.

Real question: What year? I notice there are lot of stories online about "20 years this crazy thing happened to me in India", but now no more. Example: You can do eVisa for India travel. Super easy online. Most train tickets you can buy online or via "concierge" (minor fee). Hotel booking? Yeah, that too, even smaller places via Internet "aggregator" websites. Travel in India is not so backwards as people think!

I think the funniest and most embarassing story I have about travel in India: The first day in downtown Mumbai, I go to the train stain to buy a ticket for a Churchgate station a few stops away. Honestly, I have no idea what the price will be, but I assume 20-30 rupees. I only have 100 rupee notes. I go to the ticket window: Lady tells me: "5 rupees". I gasped, and looked at my 100 rupee note. She rejects my 100 rupee note! (She was not disrespectful; said: you will take all my change! Wait here; after next person, I can sell it to you.) Next person pays with enough change, then me. All good. We both laughed. To put that in perspective, that is about 2-3 Euro CENTS to ride the train!

Isn’t train ticketing online now? I know my 75 yr old dad just does it at home on his laptop.

Edit- echoing a comment further down. I got an Indian visa. It was done online and was emailed to me in 24hrs.

dude. unless you are doing some space age shit or something, you don't need to set up a company in india to do business. sure the whole "limited liability" and that but in reality that is just a smokescreen.

just use your personal pan card to open a bank account, get a GST registration, do income tax audit and you will be done. No compliance, no nothing.

i do taxes and books for businesses with 250+ Crore turnover and they are all sole proprietorships. Why? the simple answer is why bother? you can have all the employees,all the corporate hierarchy and still be a proprietorship...

One part of the problem is all the professionals milking companies for "compliance management fees" but in the end of the day, my suggestion to businesses is unless you REALLY REALLY need a company, please don't bother

isn't the tax burden for sole proprietorship higher than for say limited company? 30 vs 25 iirc?

you can claim as many expenses as you like, in companies there are restrictions, there are deferred tax assets and liabilities because of companies act and income tax act depreciation difference. There is MAT applicable sooner than sole proprietorship i think.

lets just say it is easier to "appropriate" the books as a sole proprietorship.

you have to pay mca fees for your authorized capital, one off but if you are doing serious business, it costs.

i know, 5% "might" sound a lot in taxes but by fudging some numbers, by not paying complaince fees, by not being on the hook for a "lot of compliance" and the penalties that come up, it does not sound worth the risk....

Look, if you are doing big business, want to raise money from the public, sure go ahead but not otherwise.

> but by fudging some numbers

And this is the corruption mentality right there.

> you don't need to set up a company in india to do business

You do if you want outside investment. Or if you want professional management. Or if you want to seriously engage in international business.

What you say is true: most businesses are sole proprietorships. But that's a significant and manufactured barrier to growth.

Unfortunately you need to incorporate if you want to raise venture funding. You'll also struggle to get taken seriously by good tech talent if you try to hire them as a proprietorship.

Depends. The comment you replied to has a point. I have a family business. From personal experience this is how it works in practice for most entrepreneurs.

As for funding and business strategy, it will get bit tricky because you will now have to think of different ways of financing instead of VCs. But it is nothing different than VC financing (and you get to keep 100% of your company).

You need limited liability at larger scale and an official entity to get low interest loans, support and above the counter investor funding. These systems need new company centred reform and redesign to remove friction causing elements like OP describes to enable Indian entrepreneurship to realise its untapped potential in India as well as overseas. The amount of bureaucracy left behind by the British and the layer upon layer of mindless inefficiency added since is stifling innovation, adaptation and growth like nothing else.

What makes me pessimistic is the place bureaucrats still occupy in the social hierarchy. Even today, getting a government job carries tremendous prestige, especially outside urban areas. Becoming an IAS/IPS officer is the most prestigious thing you can do as an individual.

Bureaucracy will remain obdurate as long as members of the bureaucracy are feted by society. Ideally, bureaucrats should be invisible. But in India, IAS/IPS officers make headlines regularly.

I won't get even started about the sheer amount of man hours wasted in preparing for administrative exams. Statistically, less than 0.1% of the people preparing for IAS exams will actually be selected. The remaining 99.9% waste YEARS of their lives in this futile endeavor instead of actually building and learning.

I remain bearish on India as long as the bureaucracy remains paramount.

> Becoming an IAS/IPS officer is the most prestigious thing you can do as an individual.

If you are in UP and Bihar. That's not true for the rest of the country.

Is that because of their geographical proximity to New Delhi, the capital?

No, it's because these states have fewer options.

True in Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh as well (have lived there for years).

Between these four states alone, we're talking about 40% of the country's population.

If more than half of your country believes something, it can be said to be the majority opinion.

You wrote: <<Between these four states alone, we're talking about 40% of the country's population.>>

Google Sensei tells me:

    UP: 204.2M
    Bihar: 99.02M
    Rajasthan: 68.89M
    Madhya Pradesh: 73.34M

Not even close to 40%. Population of India is about 1.3B to 1.4B.

Those numbers are way too old. Even by the 2011 census, UP was nearly 200M with a decadal growth rate of 20% in the previous decade. Bihar was 104M with a 25% growth rate.

Even with more muted growth, current population would be 230M+ for UP and 125M+ for Bihar.

Not really.

IAS folk make on the order of a $1M/pa with all their kickbacks. They often even get to send their kids to study in the West for "free" through "scholarships" (as a quid-pro-quo for compromising national interest). The demand is quite high (see marriage portals).

IPS is one tier lower. Though, anyone who has studied the hallowed history of the former commission of Mumbai knows this is also not something to sneeze at.

>Why? I have no idea!

Legacy of British civil service and bureaucracy ?

"No, you don't understand, we have to operate like this seventy plus years after the end of British rule - not because we are incapable or we aren't agents - no no but because the British set up this system, and who are we to change it?"

See also, "no you don't understand, we had to start a war with the Muslims in the West because the British didn't tell them to be our second class citizens fast enough"

A bureaucratic system selects for people who are good at that kind of process. Unsurprisingly, they aren't too eager to change the environment they thrive in.

Indian civil service do have stronger gravitas compared to other civil service. Looking from Indian Civil Services Examination, it really attracts huge amount of talents and required preparations.

...and an effectively unlimited labour supply

We had company stamps and sole proprietor's stamps in Russia too but they became optional 7 years ago. It was Soviet legacy and it's surprising that India still hasn't got rid of it.

India got rid of it in 2015.

Singapore still has company stamps.

I guess it is a legacy of (inherited?) Chinese bureaucracy. Hong Kong has it too.

I remember dropping my bag at a luggage store at the big train station in Mumbai. Bags needed to be scanned before being stored, not uncommon. Except the scanner was on the other side of the station.

So I was sent off and queued up to get my bag scanned and more importantly get my receipt stamped to say it'd been scanned walked back through the crowds where I could have done anything with the bag - to the luggage drop where the attendant checked that I had the correct stamps to say it had been checked! No seals on the bag, nothing to stop me giving them a different bag, just the essential stamp on a bit of paper!

Ah yes, it's the "yessir" bureaucracy, the "magical paper" bureaucracy. Designed to keep privileges and maybe as a job program

Malls are the worst when it comes to security theater. Most will check your car's boot for illicit materials when you park. But they won't check the car's interios - you could have anything inside!

You'll usually be frisked at the mall entrance. Women will only get frisked by a female security guard. If the female security guard is absent (pretty common), any female visitor can just walk through without getting frisked.

Do you mean shopping malls?

Not op but yes they meant that.

Wait, everyone gets frisked at Indian malls?

Was certainly not my experience 20 years ago.

At least happens here in Delhi. I can't remember if it happened before the 26th November 2008 Mumbai terror attacks, but that might have been the instigating factor.

You're right it wasn't true back then. I don't live in India anymore, but I believe a lot of security measures (and security theater) were implemented after the 2008 terrorist attacks in Mumbai: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Mumbai_attacks.

Not in South India, in any of the cities I've been to. There was a brief period (possibly after the 2008 attacks that the others mention) when that was the case, but that didn't last long.

Bangkok, at least pre-COVID, metal detectors at all underground station entrances and all department stores. All with security guards. All waving people straight through while the things beeped alarmingly. Worst was when a tourist paid attention to the signs and attempted to show the security guard the contents of their bag. Eyes rolling everywhere as the crowd backs up, waiting for the guard to get them out of the way as fast as possible. But despite all that, they still insisted everyone actually had to walk through the detectors and you would be blocked if you dared try to enter through the exit door (without a metal detector).

> the "company stamps" that are required for everything you do with your business

We had that craze in Poland, but somehow managed to slowly crawl out of it over the last 20 years. It was a slow and painful process: even when the laws were changed not to require stamps, many places would ask for them and you would have to explain that your company stamp doesn't exist, so you can't place one on the form.

It's one of those bureaucratic viruses of the mind. We're lucky to have gotten rid of it, but there are others! Examples are "fill your forms with a BLUE pen" (supposedly because it looks less "photocopied"?), "sign legibly" (I never know if I'm supposed to use my signature or sign my name), "your national ID card number" (it's idiotic to ask for one, as it changes if you lose your ID and get a new one). There was also a period where every company would photocopy your ID (for example when signing up for a cellular plan), until the government stepped in and declared it illegal.

Bureaucracy is like barnacles on a ship: you have to constantly fight the growth.

> "sign legibly" (I never know if I'm supposed to use my signature or sign my name)

I suppose they mean to say "don't make a squiggly line (parafka) and call it a signature".

We had waived off the requirements for stamps and signs when filing annual compliance documents during the pandemic. Everything worked just as well.

Now they've brought them back again.

With so many people pointless busywork is a good way to keep people busy and 'employed'.

India is 'post-woke'. Its total & complete retardation (even compared to British times) is not in the least surprising.

> Everything requires an application, even when everything can be done digitally.

Please also provide two self attested photocopies.

(It’s interesting to think about why attestation is required.)

Now they ask for "official Aadhar". Even though its a digital document and Aadhar website explicitly states that every copy of Aadhar is an "official" copy.

If you get a color print and get it laminated, your unofficial Aadhar suddenly becomes "official".

I've had so many arguments with officials about this its unreal.

Huh, is that a thing people ask for? I've had to explain the

> its a digital document and Aadhar website explicitly states that every copy of Aadhar is an "official" copy

part multiple times to people in my family, but had assumed this would be basic knowledge to government officials.

Reminds me of a surreal example[1] of Indian bureaucracy from Jim Rogers’ Adventure Capitalist:

    Rogers and his wife had left India's State of Manipur and were safely across the border in Myanmar. But wait, here comes an Indian official running after them, who says that they can't leave, because, they didn't have permission to be in Manipur. "He was telling us — I am not making this up — that we had to return to Manipur, because we were not allowed to be in Manipur, and thus we could not leave it," Rogers relates. The debate lasted for two hours before, "someone made a phone call and took the subinspector off the hook, and we were free to proceed."

1: https://mises.org/library/book-review-adventure-capitalist

India is the only place I ever travelled to, that controlled visas upon leaving the country. Like what, you are at the airport, behind security, with a ticket back to Germany in hand, with a German passport, and now they have doubts about the visas you got from the Indian consulate? What are they going to do, hold you up and send you back on a flight paid for by the Indian government or what? Really crazy.

Overall, kind of logic so, because how can you leave a place you didn't enter in the first place because you had no permit to enter it? Mind blowing!

This is not that unusual. It happens to me every time I forget to hand over my Dutch residence permit with my (non-EU) passport when leaving the Schengen zone from Schiphol. The border guards are absolutely meticulous about flipping through the passport looking at the entry and exit dates in the hopes of catching a potential overstayer. They're almost always super disappointed when I realize what's happening and hand over the card.

The threat isn't "we're going to keep you here because you weren't allowed to be here," it's "we see you have overstayed your visa and now we're going to make sure you catch your flight out and ban you from ever coming back."

Thailand checks on exit for overstay requiring you to pay overstay fines on the spot in cash. Ostensibly to stop illegal workers, because the best way to stop that is apparently done by the immigration department, by making work visas hard to qualify for and a bureaucratic nightmare to actually get, and checking tourist visas on exit after the illegal work has been done and enough money to cover the fines earned. Because the Labor department has no enforcement force.

I was in Tunisia at the airport in Tunis for a departing flight. Having already checked online, I tried going through security with my electronic boarding pass. The security told me I needed my boarding pass. I pointed again to the electronic copy as politely as I could. The security said “this is Tunisia, you need the paper copy.” XD

Is smoking still allowed there indoors (in the airport)?

Not sure, I didn't notice. A lot of airports have a designated smoking room, but I think you're asking about smoking in general.

It's probably banned then since. A few years ago people were lighting up cigarettes in the lobby, which was very odd to me.

This happened to me in Mumbai several years ago. I had thankfully been forewarned, but there were military police checking boarding passes for entering passengers outside the airport, and no one without a paper boarding pass + appropriate government ID was allowed into the terminal. This was right up there with the "requirement" that business travelers in India provide a physical business card to the hotel when checking in. I haven't been a in few years, so hopefully that's at least no longer the case.

What year? I cannot believe this was in the last 20 years. The "physical business card" thing never happened to me.

Worth noting that a vast majority of these rules were created by the British and have been carried over as it is post independence and till this day. Quite a lot of them have become irrelevant but no one’s bothered to purge them.

A company stamp isn't a security device any more than a signature. It's an abstraction similar to a "power of attorney" type thing. They are going away but has been used in Japan and China, including Hong Kong, as well.

The results of British and east India company influences?

In India they optimize for maximum employment. It's the only place I've seen 7 people needed to refill a soda vending machine.

Once I ordered some drinks brought up to my hotel room around 10 in the evening. It took forever - turned out the guy who made the drinks was sent home for the day. So the hotel called him back and had him return just so he could come and make the drinks and bring them to my room. Because that was his job - nobody elses.

This was at a five star hotel in Amritsar.

Our driver slept in the car outside the hotel and was on call 24/7 for our entire stay.

Quite different from western countries for sure.

I'm not sure that is maximizing employment as much as it is taking advantage of labor that is too cheap to meter.

Weird question: Did you feel embarassed when you learned driver was sleeping in the car? I would be. You: Sleeping in a 5 star. Them: In an uncomfortable car seat. When I traveled to Seam Reap, Cambodia, I was constantly embarassed when my driver did not come to eat with me. It was a weird, unpleasant peasant-ruler divide that I did not enjoy.

Unfortunately, in rich countries, the peasant-ruler divide is just abstracted away and out of sight, often internationally.

Honestly this kind of stuff is why I don’t travel to such places. Im sure they’re beautiful and whatever but I’d rather go spend time in an advanced country like Japan. The constant guilt tripping is not fun.

I was attending a wedding and everything was arranged for me so i just 'arrived' as a white westerener. Yes it was strange, and it exposed me to something I had never before experienced or imagined. Wherever I went they would yell 'gora' meaning white man. Some even wanted to take my picture.

However, Amritsar is famous for the golden temple which is the the holiest of all Sikh shrines. They said it was most beautiful to view at night. So we went there late at night parking closeby , walking there there we passed by the rickshaw drivers sleeping in their rickshaws as far as i could gather they had no other place to sleep. So they had it even worse.

Not to mention the child beggars of New delhi or the makeshift camps you saw driving along the highway.

All of this was approx 10 years ago.

It for sure opened my eye to the destitute and poverty.

> India's obsession with paperwork is unceasing and baffling. Everything requires an application, even when everything can be done digitally. You need letters and stamps to get anything done.

I remember once my wife and I wanted to travel by train to a tourist town. After buying the tickets, we realized we had made a mistake (actually, _they_ had made a mistake). So we decided to cancel our tickets and just buy new ones.

We had to fill in an application, attach photos of ourselves, as well as our copies of our passports ... all to cancel a ticket! Boggles the mind.

It feels like a Kabuki theater, set up to keep the people busy and employed.