If this would be your genuine reaction, congratulations. You belong to the 0.001% of the population that would feel this way.
I've mostly quit social media because the majority of active people are not interesting, it's full of ad-garbage and heated up debates about dis-interesting topics.
I guess I'm also in the 0.0001%. Though, I do think it's much higher than that. The dissatisfied people are just the most vocal.
Do you believe there is a fundamental difference between these sites, and something like HN (despite both being social media)? I feel like there is. I know this might come off as "I use the superior, intellectual site" or something like that (even though I use the other sites occasionally). But reading tech-related news and comments about it feels very different than scrolling through funny videos on TikTok.
I don't mean to say HN is any better in terms of mental health than either of the others - I spend more time on it than I really should. But I never leave it feeling depressed or jealous like I do on more common social media: I always feel like I learned something rather than watching a meme I'll forget in 30 seconds.
Where do you get your assumption that only 1 in 100,000 people are happy for others? The fact that there are at least two people who feel this way commenting in this chat seems to imply your numbers are off. I don't think the percentage of depressed people in the world is that high.
We can feel happy (for them) and unsatisfied (with ourselves) at the same time. Multiply that by N, and well, that's a recipe for disaster (at least for me). I know, I know, we shall not compare ourselves with others, but hey, I'm not a machine, I have my imperfections which I am polishing from time to time, but in the meanwhile social media makes everything worse in average (for me).
Seeing people conspicuously consume extravagant leisure travel – and the associated resources – brings to mind global warming and how few people actually give a damn about it in any meaningful way.
It also reminds me of what brazen liars many people are. In cases where I've known the people posting Facebook/Insta content about their amazing trips, in about half of those, the reality is that the trip was far less than amazing than their posts would suggest.
As an example, one woman I know took her family across the Pacific to Thailand on a two-week vacation. By their accounts, they had a pretty rotten time, even considering moving their return date forward. But, the Facebook narrative was glowing. Four years later, the woman's Facebook cover photo is of a Thai Buddhist temple from that trip. (She's not a Buddhist. The photo is purely for aesthetics and social signaling.)
It seems to me that this kind of behavior feeds into a loop that encourages other people to consume finite resources and then post about their "amazing" (though often non-amazing) trips. And so the cycle continues.
And that really gets me down. I don't go on Facebook very often.
“Damn. Matthew has changed jobs 3 times in the past 5 years already, each time to a better paying job. Look at you. You’re still stuck in this shitty job because you suck.”
This is literally the kind of thought I have had in the past.
[*] Are you “happy” in a polite way? Or are you genuinely happy?
I kind of find that hard to believe.
that was all OP was referring too and it's well documented. Honestly you come off as dishonest in this convo as it's quiet a normal emotion to feel and it's not negative per say, it can lead to negative actions but can also push people to do better.
"It doesn't matter if the slight is real or not, its the perception of the person that matters" -- Jimmy Hoffa
I never said I don't feel envy. You jumped to conclusions based on a very little sentence I wrote.
I currently have a very severe skin condition, and I live in a country with 'free' healthcare. I am envious that some people get medical treatment for it and can live a normal life again and some people do not (such as myself).
I don't give a shit if you think I'm dishonest, you do not know me.
Why? Feeling envious is just human nature. Sure, one can argue that in our current society that kind of feeling is "bad", and we should "fix it". I tend to agree, but that you find it bizarre, it's bizarre to me :D
Oh well, maybe you are a machine (based on your nickname), so yeah, machines do not have imperfections (just kidding).
Let me tell you how I had envied my cousin when he had a Super Famicom (a.k.a. SNES in North America) with a stash of great games and I didn't (not even the base machine), when I was a kid. He never wronged me. In fact, we were really good buddies when we lived next to each other more than 20 years ago, but I still envied.
I guess you're a saint and the rest of us are just dirty sinners haha.
Envy, as I stated, is just an emotion. What the person does with it is where the moral and ethical sides come into play.
If it pushes me to do better in my life, I'll almost certainly mature past that emotion.
Someone else mentioned meditation and I heartily agree, mindset is how you approach the emotions.
"Anger is a great servant but a terrible Master" -- some guy in a fantasy novel
Or maybe it's not and that's just something you tell yourself to feel better about being an asshole.
To me, simply feeling envy (or any negative emotion) doesn't really say anything about the person. Actively stoking negative emotions or acting on them moves the needle in the direction of asshole, though.
Or maybe your brother and you have a crush on the same woman. He asks her out and they start dating. You aren't jealous.
Or just suppose you always wanted something at home, a hot tub, a big screen tv, a walk-in closet, a home office, whatever, and you find out your friend has the thing - you'd be envious right?
It seems like you're confusing being envious of someone as a negative feeling towards them, which is why you're getting caught up on the friends and family aspect. It shouldn't matter if it's friends and family - they are often the people you know the most about so you'll find out if they do/have something you want. If you let your envy turn to anger and contempt, that's the negative part, but you don't have to - that's just having a healthy perspective and self-control
- This would absolutely make me jealous, but I've never been in that situation
- No, this is the weirdest one. I have friends who own huge houses (multiple!) and sports cars. I'm happy for their success, I find it genuinely mental that you would be (are? surely you have more successful friends) jealous because your mate has a better car than you. Jesus.
And I'm not "stuck" in the friends and family bit, that's been the whole context of the thread.
Fortunately, empathy and epistemological pluralism can make your life bearable.
It's great that not everyone struggles with that, but different people struggle with different emotions. Maybe we can all agree that whatever their nature and whatever we call them is beside the point, (I think) that social media engagement optimizations have notoriously exploited these effects as they relate to our attention and habits, taking many people on an unwanted emotional roller-coaster ride for arguably unhealthy amounts of time.
It’s an ambivalent feeling. I was definitely stressed for months thinking about how much worse my life is as a consequence of comparing myself to someone else. But at the same time, I’ve lifted myself up to a higher standard since that stress turned into motivation. That friend who I felt envious of is also happy for my success, and I’m also happy for his.
I think the disagreement here mostly stems from a different definition of "friend". For most ppl, the friends they see on their FB/IG feed aren't actually "friends"... but more like acquaintances. Often times they're people that you've only met a few times and haven't seen in many years.
Though, even with close friends, sometimes one can't help but compare. And since social media only highlight the highlights, you'll naturally feel bad when comparisons happen.
Seems that with apps like BeReal/Locket taking off in the GenZ market this is starting to shift a little.
I never really had a problem with FB, just the constant cringy posts made me leave!
But dumping Twitter a couple of years ago was the best thing I ever did - it was just making me angry every time I started browsing it!
And how is it in any way different from the same people telling me this stuff at a pub? I don't think social media has anything to do with this.
And being "the lord of your destiny" is already not applicable to most people, except in an abstract, meaningless sense that a person can always decide for themselves. That doesn't mean they can wish reality away. (E.g. "Yeah, I have $200K in student debt, no job prospects after looking for 10 months, and my spouse got sick, but I can do whatever I decide").
And rationally being aware of this doesn't help either: you still get the raw first experience at an emotional level.
Envy. You can be genuinely happy for them, but then be sad that your life isn't going as well. I think this compounded by the idea that a lot of people don't feel like the lords of their destiny, more leaves in a river unable to fight the currents.
Which of course adds to the stress of "Why can't I be better and more like [friend]?". Which may or may not lead to productive self-reflection (more likely not in my experience)
>And how is it in any way different from the same people telling me this stuff at a pub? I don't think social media has anything to do with this.
Scale, I would imagine. If it was one or two friends I think it's easier to rationalise, but when you see friends-of-friends and celebrities "living their best life", every day, while you struggle to keep your head above water, it takes a toll.
As opposed to a real life social interaction, I can simply hit Unfollow on Facebook (so we stay Friends but I don't see your posts unless I look for them)...
And if you have to resort to unfollowing, you’re basically agreeing that it’s a problem.
Now I wonder whether you're pulling my leg.
I can understand the scale argument, but I can't see why it's a problem after I've unfollowed the problematic accounts.
At one point in my life, I unfollowed literally every FB friend I had - because I wanted to follow my groups but my friends' posts were too political and this kind of talk had a bad effect on me. I can't see why people just don't do that when social media makes them sad.
Let's say seeing a certain type of post makes someone sad, and that this causes that person's mind to wander, slowing or stopping their feed-scrolling for a moment now and then when they see such content. This means they're now stopped on the feed at a potentially vulnerable moment. There is now a monetary incentive for the feed curation algorithm to continue doling out the kind of posts that make the user sad, as well as placing targeted advertisements right with them - ideally ones that exploit the negative emotion in some way.
I realize not everyone reacts the same way. Maybe they speed up their scrolling instead. The kinds of behavior that social media feed curation algorithms track and act upon is opaque, and I think that lack of transparency and accountability can easily have unfortunate consequences.
This is not a rare feeling.
Does that mean we have to be slaves to our genes? I hope not. People like Sam Harris and others offer all kinds of methods to detach and "win" over our biology.
So it's just a feeling. What you do with it (actions) is up to you, most people don't act upon those feelings in any noticeable way.
But if we are being honest with ourselves constant feelings of envy often do lead to a deteriorating relationship (usually in the form of the person feeling envious choosing to distance himself from whomever he's feeling envious of), simply for the fact that feeling envious feels like crap - and when you are feeling envious of a person you actually care about it feels double crap (you feel envious and guilty at the same time).
Is the answer generally just "it is what it is?" That's so dark.
It's an end sum game of who can acquire more money/resources if we break away all the bullshit.
I don't share my wins because the majority of people are jealous creatures
In my 20s, I was as happy as one can be. I posted a lot on social media and enjoyed posts of my friends. Loved food posts cause that gave me new resturants to try out.
Vacation pictures, I couldn't afford a nice vacation but vacationed via those pictures. Asked friends to post more pictures.
Friend got a job, it meant time for a party.
Now I am not as happy as I used to be. Now I do get annoyed with food and vacation photos. Feel jealous when friends are promoted. I rarely go on social media but when I do I immediately feel bad about myself.
Maybe I am just getting old.
Oh and yes when I was on Facebook, no one posted about politics. In fact, I remember reading my first few political posts of my friends and thinking whats wrong with them.
This sounds like a misunderstanding. Being happy for friends (real friends not "500 Facebook friends" friends) is not mutually exclusive with these news invoking bad feelings inside you (shame, feeling of inadequacy etc.)
Also, I can't relate to feelings of shame or inadequacy because someone has something good happening to them. If anything, it motivates me to achieve the same.
Those two aspects feel like they are opposing one another. On the one hand, you claim to never feel inadequate, yet when you see others achieving something you haven't yet achieved you claim it motivates you to achieve the same. How is it that you feel adequately achieved in some area yet another's greater success motivates you to achieve more? Most people I know would label that feeling "inadequacy". They don't yet have something they want and strive to get it.
I think the way you label these emotions is unique relative to everyone else I've meet. You're the first person who can't relate to feeling inadequacy yet at the same time feels motivated by things others have achieved.
That doesn't mean you are feeling inadequate. Being inspired doesn't mean you feel bad about yourself.
For example, whenever I watch really good basketball, it makes me want to go out and play myself. When I see someone playing a fun video game, it makes me want to play. I don't feel inadequate, I just want to participate in the fun and challenge.
1. I have inadequate resources. I can never afford such fancy lodgings, etc. This is a pretty negative emotion.
2. I feel my vacationing has been inadequate. I should spend more time off with my loved ones. Where can I go in my time and dollar budget to better enjoy life?
I would call both feels one of being 'inadequate'. If I felt adequate, I would feel like I don't need any (more) vacations and not inspired to make any changes in my life.
At least that was my reading of id's comment that "If anything, it motivates me to achieve the same." Without any feeling of inadequacy, where does the motivation come from? Maybe I process these feelings differently than others, but for me without something to trigger the desire, I won't be motivated, and that trigger is in some sense something inadequate I want to improve about myself or my life.
3. I have adequate resources, but hadn't really thought about going on a Hawaiian vacation. Maybe I should start planning a tropical trip, that looks really fun!
Or even if you don't currently have the money saved up, maybe now that you see how fun a trip like that could be you want to start saving for it.
Basically, this is how I feel about my life and seeing people having fun doing stuff:
I like my life. I have a ton of things I enjoy doing, and I spend my free time cycling through those things I like. However, there are so many fun things to do I can't possibly do them all at once. I have a huge backlog of fun things to do, and I enjoy thinking about one day doing all of them. I don't feel bad that I can't do them all at once, because I am busy enjoying the fun things I am currently doing.
At the same time, there are many fun things to do that I haven't even thought about! I encounter new fun things all the time online, and when I see someone doing something that looks fun I think, "Wow, that looks cool! I might enjoy that someday!" So I will put it on my list of things to do, and maybe if it intrigues me enough I will try to move it up on the list. It might take some work to learn how to do the thing or to gain the resources to do it, but that doesn't bother me, because I like working to learn new things or save up resources. Working hard is one of the things I like doing!
Sometimes, I see someone having fun doing something and I have no interest in doing it myself, but I still really enjoy seeing someone else having fun doing it. I love seeing passionate people pursuing their hobbies. I find it fun to peer into subcultures that form around strange activities that I have no personal interest in, but love that there exists people who are super into it. The variety interests me.
I might be using the word differently than everyone else, but that's why I try to explain what I mean. If for you and id inadequacy can only be a negative feeling then I agree social media need not evoke that emotion, but for many people it often does. But I don't think inadequacy is necessarily a negative feeling. I can be a positive driving force.
Like you can't understand that humans act this way in these situations?
I don't believe you.
What I'm claiming is that a negative reaction (in terms of comparison) in this way and feeling happy for others are independent of each other.
Then perhaps it might make more sense to work on that instead, wouldn't it? I mean if we as a species became a little less jealous of each other, an utopia would be practically at hand.
I know I never have. I never understood why people get so worked up about that sort of thing honestly. It never bothered me if someone wanted to date my ex, or if they had some sudden windfall, or are doing well.
But I see some people feel this intensely! I'm sympathetic, IMO, they don't choose to feel that way. But it's funny to me, if I were to walk down the street and see two people, and give each of them $5, it would be all smiles. But for a certain percentage of people, if I gave the person on the left $5 and the person on the right $100, they'd feel worse than when they had no money!
Moreover - how do you know you won't experience it in the future? Have you ever been unemployed for 4 years? Maybe being unemployed for 4 years would make you envious of a friend who just got a job in Google. Have you ever been with a woman you loved dearly only to find out she cheated on you and left you for another man? Maybe going through this traumatic experience would make you envious.
I'm just saying it's easy to be content when things are going well, indeed I don't feel much envy - but I'm super aware I am quite lucky. If things stop going well who knows what negative emotions would pop up - it won't be a picnic thats for sure.
If I played the ultimatum game, and the other person offered me 0$ out of $100, I would let them have their $100.
Let's continue this thought experiment - say with a flick of my fingers I made everyone in the world have half the money they have now - but I leave you with the same amount. So you are basically 2X richer than you were before. You say this doesn't help you at all - I think it actually increases your chances of finding housing, finding a mate, getting healthcare etc. Your material well being is established relative to others. If we expand the neighborhood example further - to city or country, it is obvious why the amount others have relative to you matters. In a world of infinite resources envy doesn't make sense, but in our world resources are limited.
And even then, the economy is not a zero-sum game. It is possible to become wealthier without making others poorer. If I get healthcare, it doesn't mean that someone else needs to be denied healthcare.
I agree to an extent. If say GDP increases it usually means the economy does better which means you will get better services (healthcare, housing, personal safety for you and your children etc) so you have an interest in others doing well. However you also have an interest in not doing worse than most since as I said the amount of resources you can get is relative to others (resources is anything from housing to healthcare to your ability to find a mate). I think this principal hasn't changed much since us being cavemen and neither have feelings of envy.
And again, there is not much evolutionary since in having no feelings of envy at all since it's a big motivator for people. Many times you feel envy or anxiety and you do something about it to improve your lot. Its there for a reason (sure, often it goes out of hand which is unfortunate). Consider yourself fortunate for not feeling much envy (or at all)!
Thanks for the data point! Can you say more about the experience? Where did you end up?
If he is growing his own food - a variety of animals will be eating the veggies. Rabbits, cabbage moths (evil bastards), groundhogs, raccoons...
Poison ivy sneaks up on you. Young plants can be hard to see, and if you're like me, you won't know you've been exposed for a few days... And then it's ALL OVER.
What I tried to aim for in Digital Vegan 1[] is to get people thinking about tech as a healthy balance.
It is actually rather common to have these extreme swings, all or nothing, total technological connection or living off berries in a woodland shack. It's called splitting in psychology, and the conditions around technology are geared to maximise it.
That's partly because it is so aggressive, in it's marketing, and peer pressure, in it's network effects created by deliberate lack of interoperability, by the way it is forced upon people. Young people are constantly bullied into over-connection by the idea they will be "left behind", that they will "miss out", and that a total cybernetic society of "ubiquitous" technology is "inevitable". All a total crock of shit of course. Nobody wants that except a few silicon valley pushers. But if you are immersed in that toxic narrative, which comes through the medium itself, it's hard for anyone to exercise rational choice, self-control and use technology in a moderate, healthy way.
So to me it makes sense to define "hacker" as someone who has mastery over technology. A master is not dominated by their own creations and desires. Part of mastery is choosing exactly how much, and what type of technology to use, and not allowing other people to foist that upon you. Real hackers make technological choices that may marginalise them, instead of just following the crowd.
I like that definition and they way you argue. But don't forget that i.e. Meta and all other social networks are paying hords of hackers to screw with your emotions. I.e. you have a really capable opponent.
Why do I claim that social networks and other pay hackers to screw with our emotions? Actually I am convinced they don't care at all about the emotions of their users. They only care about their attention. Since, that is what is being sold to advertisers. Therefore, they do anything to prohibit users from staying in control of their social media use. That doesn't mean that it is impossible to use social media responsibly and healthy, but it is not easy.
The plus side is that:
1) We know what they're up to now, and that is half the struggle.
2) We know that they are indeed adversaries (enemies of democracy and mental health), and that is also important.
Past that point, even a small number of us who are well educated, resourceful, and committed to clear communication, can have a significant impact. At the very least we can defend ourselves and help others to build intellectual self-defence.
And we are changing things. Even two years ago this discussion and the comments in this thread would have been unthinkable. We would have been shouted down by social media zealots and labelled "weirdos" (which I think is the very essence of hacker spirit - proud to be on the "weird" side of the fight right now).
As if regular people don't compare themselves with others and just enjoy the success of everybody, without considering if they are falling behind or not?
In social media, the constant highlights of the successes of other people makes you miserable for yourself, whether you feel happy for others too or not.
Besides an experience many can verify, it's also quite well studied, including in the linked article.
That might be how it makes you (and others) feel, but that doesn't mean everyone feels that way. There are people on this thread trying to say that it doesn't make them feel that way, but they keep being dismissed. The studies don't say EVERYONE feels that way, so to act like they are WRONG about how they feel is overly dismissive.
Of which we think, why aren't I losing weight? Why aren't I getting married yet? Hmm why haven't I been able to go on a vacation yet? Oh because I might not be overly happy in my job, but I just saw my friend start what they think is their dream career.
You can be left questioning our own place when you are constantly being shown the highlights of others lives.
This doesn't even need to be an effect you can detect, moment to moment, but more of a subconscious push to "want more" from life due to observing what other people are doing.
I think you are correct -- that we should feel good about a friend's vacation, or ideal job. However, in real life, we are exposed to those things in a much more limited way: you meet a friend for coffee and they show you photos of their trip, or a good friend calls to share their joy at the new job. Yes, absolutely, emotionally healthy humans should feel good about that. However, social media skews the equation, heavily. First, EVERYONE on your feed is posting how great their lives are, and, second, how many of those great lives are carefully curated for public consumption? When you are doing life with other people, yes, you share the joys and moments for celebration, but you likely also share the hard times that don't make it to social media. It really helps to know other people experience the same sorts of disappointment and pain that you do.
[0] https://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/reading-ourselve... (might be paywalled)
it doesn't in general.
and that "good feeling" is mostly a lie, something we tell ourselves, because of our education, if our education was not biased by some made-up belief, we should feel nothing, not good, not bad, because we should not care about it. What other people do with their lives - in reality - has no impact on our life at all.
But we were all thought to poject. Unfortunately people mostly project their frustrations on others.
The only way to actually feel good about something that people share, it's to share it, like in person, in real life, not passively receive it on a screen.
If watching a screen full of "good news" would actually improve people's mood, it would be recommended by WHO like with vaccines.
I meant good as in "hey, that's great for them", not as in "I'm so happy I can't stop smiling".
>because we should not care about it
If people truly didn't care, they wouldn't go on social media or read the news.
yeah, that's part of education, it's not really what we should feel, because we don't know!
Social media are just suspension of disbelief for the masses, we are looking through the keyhole, it should be obvious that what we're looking at it's a fabrication and nothing is real.
It's like those truth-vs-reality posts about social media pictures.
It's so obvious when you think about it for a moment: we don't believe that the ice cream in the ADs is actually THAT good, why we should believe that self promotional material on social media it's any better?
https://www.demilked.com/instagram-online-picture-lies-truth...
https://www.boredpanda.com/instagram-vs-reality-truth-behind...
> If people truly didn't care, they wouldn't go on social media or read the news.
as I've said before.
They should not care, but if they don't, they're out of the game.
And it hurts to them more than feeling bad.
People have been thaught that if you're not getting any attention, you're nothing.
Something something…. Dastart Putin. Dead people because you didnt wear a mask. Dead children ( Syria a few years ago, Ukraine now ). Something antivaxxer. Something texas abortion law. Someone parked like an idiot. My childrens amazing <insert brag here>. Some snyde humour picture, usually something about a republican. Posted by a non US person to a feed full of europeans.
And it goes on. Facebook makes me want to vomit sometimes.
The problems I have with social media are that
- it steals a lot of time
- a lot of content gets me by evoking negative emotion
- it's taxing to get exposed to so many different ideas, clips, heated discussions, etc. Makes we wanna throw away my phone and live in the woods