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Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by sakopov on Friday April 15, 2022 @01:45AM (#31036931)
Russia's rotten downfall is impressive to watch. I'm Ukrainian/Armenian who grew up in Russia in the 80s, I had always assumed that the military would at least stay relevant when the economy isn't. It's just been the pride of the country for centuries and to some extent even ingrained in Russian DNA that I could not see that changing going forward. I had grandparents and uncles in the Soviet military and I saw the pride in them. Now we see the bottom completely fall out as it's become eroded by decades of preposterous corruption. You have to be one special piece of shit to destroy such legacy and to find a reason, whatever it might be, to attack what I consider their own blood relatives in Ukraine.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by grishka on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:47AM (#31037563)
It's kind of a self-sustaining problem. Russia has conscription for men. 99% of the guys I know (me included) hate this very idea and did their best to not serve (there's an entire underground industry dedicated to military service evasion). The remaining 1% did serve in the army, and consider it to be the worst year of their lives. So, as you imagine, most people that do end up in the army are generally the ones that aren't very smart and/or don't have the resources to evade it. Which you can pretty clearly see from their behavior in Kyiv oblast.

It's kind of a negative selection that's been going on for quite some time. Conveniently, Maxim Katz's yesterday's video is about negative selection but higher up in the government: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4kmwnZ4l_s

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by TulliusCicero on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:45AM (#31037879)
Was the Russian military ever that good, actually? In WW2 Russia definitely played a strong role against Germany, but they took massive losses to do so, they desperately needed US equipment/supplies to even do that, and then when they pushed back across Europe they were war criming all over the place, including mass rape: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes#Mass_rapes

Then when you look post WW2, they were mostly just used to brutally crush a few uprisings, never really had to fight a real war until the current one.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by modo_mario on Friday April 15, 2022 @05:46AM (#31038259)
>they desperately needed US equipment/supplies to even do that

US material aid helped a ton but the push to inflate it's importance to the end result of the war seems never ending.

Only less than 15% of lend lease supplies had arrived a year after the last axis attempt at and advance on the eastern front. The vast majority whilst incredibly helpful arrived when the axis was already rapidly retreating.

I agree that they were incredibly brutal and rapey tho. How much of that was revenge/progression of the horrors of the eastern front idk. I'm inclined to say it was a fragment of the time but there was a ton of rape by them in the Chechnyan and Georgian conflicts as well.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by TulliusCicero on Friday April 15, 2022 @06:00AM (#31038358)
That's the Russian apologist defense yeah, "it was revenge", never mind that they conducted mass rapes among Polish women and girls as well.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by TulliusCicero on Friday April 15, 2022 @02:35PM (#31043971)
I wasn't talking about importance as much as competence. Russia took massive losses to beat down the Germans on the eastern front. They won, but they ended up losing some 25 million people. Given that they were fighting on their home turf vs a smaller population invader, that doesn't make it sound like they were terribly effective other than drowning the Germans in bodies.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by jacobolus on Friday April 15, 2022 @10:57AM (#31040970)
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by dsq on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:55AM (#31037937)
I wonder if mass rape in world war two could be verified by DNA analysis of the following generation to see how many newborn were the product of males from occupying forces as opposed to previous generations.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by drran on Friday April 15, 2022 @07:11AM (#31038831)
You can start with DNA analysis of Vladimir Pukin and Angela Markel.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by yeetsfromhellL2 on Friday April 15, 2022 @05:10AM (#31038021)
The fear and reputation of the Russian military/nuclear program/spying apparatus has often done more damage historically than the effectiveness of those programs. For example, because the CIA couldn't find evidence for the nukes and infra for deployment which they thought that Russia possessed (or could possess), they began to think the silos were just very cleverly disguised as mundane structures like farm silos, church architecture (IIRC), etc. Apparently they spent a lot of resources going down that rabbithole before realizing Russia simply wasn't that capable. Or how everyone was potentially a Soviet spy or secret communist; it got to the point that you could ruin a career just by suggesting it. This fear did more damage to the average American than any spies did.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by vegai_ on Friday April 15, 2022 @05:59AM (#31038351)
Think about how the Vietnam War went for USA. USSR was doing there almost exactly what USA (and the rest of their alliance) is doing now in Ukraine.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by TulliusCicero on Friday April 15, 2022 @02:32PM (#31043923)
I wouldn't use the Ukraine war as an example of the US army being competent (except for maybe logistics and intel). We're supplying then, but we're not doing the actual fighting.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by vegai_ on Tuesday April 19, 2022 @02:41AM (#31080254)
And in the same way USSR didn't fight in the Vietnam war.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by muchtest on Friday April 15, 2022 @05:01AM (#31037974)
Seeing more of this Revisionism of WW2 since the cooling of US-Russia relations (adding to the long time downplaying of Chinese suffering in WW2 vs European suffering)

1 - While Russia was the biggest component, it was the Soviet army - which included Ukraine (and led by a Georgian). So you're tarring both sides of the current war in your comment.

2 - It was a World War, tragic for all parties involved. You look at each side and they had moments of brilliance and absolute disasters. The Soviet Union (nor the UK) didn't have the luxury to sit back and scale their industry because the Axis forces were literally on their front, not separated by an Atlantic Ocean. Would the SU have won without American supplies? We don't know, but to downplay the player who was involved in the biggest military operations of the war that made D Day look like a side battle (Stalingrad, Kursk, Seelow Heights, Leningrad, Operation Bagration, search any one of those) shows a lack of historical awareness.

Edit - Adding to the above - more Civilians died in the Soviet Union than the total combined military deaths of the other Allied Powers. War is hell and shouldn't be romanticised or seen as a solution.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by TulliusCicero on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:44PM (#31044882)
> So you're tarring both sides of the current war in your comment.

Okay? What does this have to do with what I said? The Russians were obviously in charge of the USSR.

> We don't know, but to downplay the player

You're misreading what I wrote. I'm not talking about the importance of their contribution, but about their general competence. Even with US supplies, the USSR took absurdly huge losses against a smaller population invader, while fighting on their own home turf. That speaks to general ineffectiveness, that they could only win through overwhelming numbers.

The most important purpose of a military is to defend their country's populace. The USSR utterly failed here. You can argue that this is because the USSR was also just less economically developed than Germany, but that doesn't exactly paint the country in a flattering light either.

> The Soviet Union (nor the UK) didn't have the luxury to sit back and scale their industry

Bullshit, they could've done it earlier. Germany went back on peace to split Poland with the USSR, any idiot could see the likelihood of eventual backstabbing. Stalin knew it was coming, he was just wrong on exactly when because he didn't believe the intel he got.

> War is hell and shouldn't be romanticised or seen as a solution.

Obviously.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by Fatnino on Friday April 15, 2022 @09:34AM (#31040052)
> led by a Georgean

You mean stalin? That's who you want us to sympathize with?

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by rurban on Friday April 15, 2022 @01:43PM (#31043218)
I don't think he referred to the theory that Putin is half-Georgian: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vera_Putina
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by dgudkov on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:58AM (#31037624)
Corruption in the army is one thing. Another one is over-relying on the nuclear weapons. They probably thought "Who cares if that tank's engine is stolen. After all, we have nukes!".

Also, I would argue about legacy. The legacy, as with many things Russian, was mostly made up. The Soviet army did a lot of atrocities during, e.g. looting and rapings in WW2 in Germany (aka the "German spring"), the pointless Afghan war that killed 1mln civilians, the suppression of democracy in Czechoslovakia and Hungary in the 1960s, the Chechen wars, etc. It has never been as glorious as Soviet propaganda described it. It's always been ugly and brutal.

PS. I highly recommend reading the long threads of Kamil Galeev [1] on Twitter. He did an excellent job explaining why Russia and its army are what they are.

[1] https://twitter.com/kamilkazani

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by mcv on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:11AM (#31037695)
> "Who cares if that tank's engine is stolen. After all, we have nukes!"

But what are the odds those nukes even work? From what I understand, they're complex devices that require expert maintenance. What are the odds they've been properly maintained over the disastrous past 3 decades?

It's not something I'd ever want to bet on, because even if only 10% of their nukes work, that's still plenty to do tons of damage with, but considering the sorry state of their military, I'd be quite surprised if all of their nukes still worked perfectly.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by dgudkov on Friday April 15, 2022 @07:27AM (#31038943)
That's a good question. It would be irresponsible to bet on the nukes not working. Although, I wouldn't be surprised if one day it becomes known that Russia's nukes are non-functional due to negligence and corruption.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by hedora on Friday April 15, 2022 @10:06AM (#31040405)
Historically, Russian nukes tended to fail by disabling fail safes and self-arming. It took joint efforts with the US in the 90s to find(!) and disable the faulty ones.

I'm surprised none have gone off, frankly.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by oneoff786 on Friday April 15, 2022 @08:51AM (#31039612)
Imagine learning years later that Russia has, by this time, already launched several nuclear weapons at kyiv.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by TMWNN on Friday April 15, 2022 @01:57PM (#31043409)
>But what are the odds those nukes even work?

I've been thinking about this possibility for a while:

* Putin fires tactical atomic weapon at some empty plot of Ukrainian land, and announces it as a "demonstration" of Russian might.

* The weapon is a dud.

I'm not sure whether this outcome might not be worse in the long run, in terms of geopolitical stability, than if the weapon performs as expected!

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by rebuilder on Saturday April 16, 2022 @04:45AM (#31050772)
Why announce in advance? Drop the bomb, if it’s a dud, don’t mention it at all.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by Animats on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:13AM (#31037709)
Historically, Russian units improve markedly after being banged around a bit. They don't go in for realistic training, don't have a good career NCO corps, and don't exercise their equipment much. Currently, Russian conscripts only serve one year, so they don't get enough training to know what they are doing. But after a few battles, the losers have been killed off and the units shake down into some level of competence.

The USSR lost 20 million people in WWII. Their historical level of acceptable losses is high.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by globalise83 on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:46AM (#31037884)
Problem for them in this war is that the survivors don't learn much, they just didn't get hit by the Javelin this time.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by Fatnino on Friday April 15, 2022 @09:36AM (#31040069)
The russian population "growth" rate is in no condition to sustain 20m losses again.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by rasz on Friday April 15, 2022 @10:31AM (#31040693)
Official WW2 USSR "losses" include people _they_ killed, like Polish officers in Katyn.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by dreamsbythelake on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:55AM (#31037939)
Did you serve to discuss the "history"? :-) "improve markedly after being banged around a bit." ... such a sweet child.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by Animats on Friday April 15, 2022 @01:22PM (#31042883)
It's a quote from a US general.

(Unfortunately, Google is no longer very good at finding historical items like that.)

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by throwaway4good on Friday April 15, 2022 @02:59AM (#31037293)
I understand and have sympathy with the cheering; but something rings false in my ears.

If the Russians are so weak and incompetent then why is nearly every European country doubling their military expenditures? And countries that have been neutral through the second world war now rushing into NATO?

I fear that the Russians will be pushed into a more "traditional" warfare with heavy air campaigns against anything remotely "dual-use" and the massive civil casualties that would follow.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by mrtksn on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:10AM (#31037346)
Russia seems to be much weaker than expected but definitely they are not harmless. Ukraine fared much better than expected but they have seen enormous destruction on their lands.

Also, Europe was depending on the idea that if you integrate Russian economy with the Western economy there wouldn't be reason to wage wars, just the way EU integrated historic enemies into completely peaceful union therefore there's no need to maintain large armies. Unfortunately, the method that works for EU countries doesn't work for Russia(too corrupt? too autocratic? too eastern mentality? who knows) and as a result European countries now increase their budgets for their defence.

I think it's tragic. Would have been much better if Russians sent their gas as Europe gradually transitions into renewables and Europe sent their produce to Russians and improve their lives as they diversify their economy as the fossil energy is phased out. It should have worked, EU definitely tried make it work.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by raducu on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:32AM (#31037817)
> Russia seems to be much weaker than expected but definitely they are not harmless.

I mean, who want to test how harmful a slingshot is if they can't retaliate?

Russia has an artillery based army and Ukraine doesn't have the long range weapons to destroy it, so Russia can just destroy city after city from a safe distance.

Much weaker, but not harmless indeed.

Plus, the US already send 25% of its Javelin and Stinger missiles to Ukraine and it will take many years to replenish those stocks.

Can all countries in the vicinity of Ukraine receive such numbers of missiles and support?

No, hence we need to ramp up military spending and production in case Russia gets even wilder ideas.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by hutzlibu on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:22AM (#31037749)
"Unfortunately, the method that works for EU countries doesn't work for Russia"

In general the method works, there were(are) deep economic ties growing between germany and russia for example to mutual benefit. And those sectors are devastated because of the war and were really not in favour of it.

But Russia is a bit bigger than slovakia for example, so some economic ties were apparently not enough.

Also, most of the russia population received an decrease in living standard after the soviet union fell, so democracy was off with a bad start. When your individual life is shit, it is a comfort knowing you are at least part of something great. The RUS empire. Only, that in reality it is just a brutal, rusty moloch, which more people are hopefully seeing now. And yes, it is tragic. We now have war and even if there will be peace eventually, a new iron curtain with mines will once again divide europe.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by giardini on Friday April 15, 2022 @01:39PM (#31043148)
hutzlibu says >"When your individual life is shit, it is a comfort knowing you are at least part of something great. The RUS empire. Only, that in reality it is just a brutal, rusty moloch, "<

So once again we are in a "war of ideas". I hope we do not face a "new iron curtain" as you say, that would indeed be a shame.

I held so many hopes for the Russian people but foolishly thought they had escaped the prisons of thought that might bind them. So many outstanding people, some of the best writers, mathematicians, and scientists, generations of civilization and a history worth mining for gems.

I now see more clearly that the Russians (and other peoples in that region of the Earth) are neither Western nor Eastern in thought but have their own very different perceptions of the world. And unfortunately many of them seem to suffer an undeserved diminished sense of self-worth and a desire for recognition (some call it "thymos") that is perceived as not forthcoming from foreigners, whether truly present or not.

I have always believed that any Russian or "Eurasian" (if I may use that term to denote the broader groups of peoples in the region) person was as worthy or better, good or bad, strong or weak, kind, and good ... as any person whatsoever. But I fear b/c of the West's indifference and yes, the West's negligence of these peoples after the breakup of the Soviet Union, we have, as a group, not sufficiently shown the respect that is due them. We needed a "Marshall Plan" for the fall of the Soviet Union, if only to offer it.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by phoe-krk on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:18AM (#31037393)
> If the Russians are so weak and incompetent then why is nearly every European country doubling their military expenditures? And countries that have been neutral through the second world war now rushing into NATO?

Because they are going to besiege many cities and kill many people even if they end up losing a war, just like what happens in Ukraine right now.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by notriskfree on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:39AM (#31037521)
We can clearly see that the current generation of tank the Russians have are useless. We will spend lots of money on very expensive equally redundant tanks. We can clearly see that the Russians were unable to gain air superiority. We will spend lots of money on incredibly expensive new fighters and bombers. We can clearly see the Russian fleet is bottled up. We will spend lots of money on new ships and submarines.

If we were interested in defence, all the (small) spending would be on anti tank and anti aircraft missile systems, logistics, and training our national guard, firemen, police and other citizens. We (the west) vastly outnumber the Russians, have more advanced technology, and hugely larger industrial capacity.

This defence spending is obviously not about Russia, and not about defence, it is firstly and mainly about making money and creating jobs to get ourselves out of the current economic disaster, and secondly about preparing for war with our next official adversary, whoever the Americans decide to nominate for that.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by ravel-bar-foo on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:05AM (#31037667)
I think you underestimate just how low EU military spending was. In Germany there were reports of a complete lack of readiness: in 2018 DW reported that none of Germany's 14 large military transports were flight-worthy, 21,000 officer positions were vacant, fighter aircraft were averaging 4 months of flyability per year (resulting in a pilot training deficit), and only 9 of 44 tanks promised for the Very High Readiness Joint Task Force were operational. And those are the big flashy items. The articles also note shortages of supplies like winter clothes, automatic grenade launchers, night-vision equipment, and body armor.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by majewsky on Friday April 15, 2022 @07:24AM (#31038921)
The German defense budget was 46.5 bln € in 2021 [1]. The problem is not spending, the problem is the utter mismanagement in the defense ministry and military forces. I have talked to someone who did contract work for the ministry and knows their internal processes. He proposed that the first step should be to fire everyone and restaff the ministry from scratch.

[1] https://www.bundesfinanzministerium.de/Monatsberichte/2022/0... (Ctrl-F "Ausgaben des Bundes nach Aufgabenbereichen", row title "Verteidigung")

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by NicoJuicy on Friday April 15, 2022 @07:30AM (#31038963)
Military spending is based on the size of the economy.

Russia's was 6% of GDP , but EU easily outspended it with <2%

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by ravel-bar-foo on Friday April 15, 2022 @09:22AM (#31039923)
True, but presumably EU pays its soldiers EU wages and buys modern technology which has been tested for safety and reliability, whereas Russia sends conscripts to war in austere equipment.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by NicoJuicy on Friday April 15, 2022 @10:07AM (#31040424)
And 70% of Russia's investments in military is probably wasted on corrupt officials.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by raducu on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:37AM (#31037839)
> We can clearly see that the current generation of tank the Russians have are useless.

You deeply underestimate how much worse things could get.

After receiving tens of thousands of ATGMs, Ukraine still only destroyed a fraction of the current russian armor and equipment. Russia has many times over in storage. Sure, it will take a while to make that operational, but we shouldn't be taking any chances and just build overwhelming force to stop Russia, especially when it's so cheap for us, relatively speaking.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by oezi on Friday April 15, 2022 @05:47AM (#31038266)
There are some estimates that 25% (500 of 2000) of all tanks involved in the invasion were destroyed. That's certainly a fraction but a rather large one.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by wrzuteczka on Friday April 15, 2022 @05:07AM (#31038008)
The better your military equipment is, the lesser the chance that you will need to use it.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by CamperBob2 on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:51AM (#31037584)
Good example of why you want to read the whole comment before upvoting.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by lordnacho on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:06AM (#31037328)
These Europeans are coming out of a phase of almost no perceived threat, so they have to increase spending even if they don't think the Russians are very good.

Plus you have to plan for the adversary being better than what you have evidence for, that's just prudent.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by NicoJuicy on Friday April 15, 2022 @05:35AM (#31038174)
NATO exists because of the threat.

The mistake is that other countries are being bullied by Russia. NATO untill further escalation works.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by lordnacho on Friday April 15, 2022 @06:06AM (#31038397)
Yeah it's like an inflatable dinghy. You have it around in storage until you need it. Germany at the moment has just declared they will inflate their military.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by sofixa on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:56AM (#31037617)
> fear that the Russians will be pushed into a more "traditional" warfare with heavy air campaigns against anything remotely "dual-use" and the massive civil casualties that would follow

That's what they're already doing. Except it's not with air power, because theirs is kind of a joke ( using commercial off the shelf phones and GPS to communicate and navigate), but with artillery. And it's not "anything remotely dual use", it's bomb everything, even obviously civilian targets.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by throw_5202 on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:09AM (#31037340)
1. Russian military performs worse than was expected by western experts but still has enough explosives to flatten out large swaths of land - as we see they don't care at all about collateral damage or outright target civilians as an easy prey.

2. NATO military was not really tested in full scale combat and can perform worse than expected too.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by yakak on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:22AM (#31037751)
This is not really a poorly performing military. This is a terribly incompetent plan proudly made by only 5 people.

NATO has had plenty of logistical failures but it doesn't narrow it's planning to total top-down so those failures are dealt with and worked around by elements in the middle and on the field.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by fer on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:13AM (#31037368)
European countries are ramping up expenditure simply because Russia has increased instability in Europe and they can't be trusted to uphold their treaties anymore. While its military has been embezzled into oblivion by the elite, Russia still has one of the largest standing armies.

Moreover, lots of proper military research projects have been done. It's the actual production where they run into the corruption bottleneck: that could be solved and the giant might awaken.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by raducu on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:39AM (#31037854)
> European countries are ramping up expenditure simply because Russia has increased instability

Russia was/is spending something like 17% on military. Obviously they planned to use it at some point, I can't believe we were this dumb not to see it.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by rm_-rf_slash on Friday April 15, 2022 @01:14PM (#31042786)
“Solving corruption” won’t fix the supply chain reliance on western components, now closed off via sanctions.

Russia can’t make special stuff if it can’t make boring stuff.

They can try import substitution from China but it would be difficult to move goods as the Trans-Siberian Railway is already at capacity trying to replace other goods, and even China may not be able to provide suitable replacements for parts manufactured in Europe.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by thawaya3113 on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:04AM (#31037318)
1) No one expected them to be so weak and miserable. Note that every western analyst gave it at most 3 days (some might have said 7, but no one said more) before Kyiv would fall. Note also that even over a month into the invasion, and it making no progress, the narrative in western circles was that it was a result of a temporary logistics problem and/or using conscripts as cannon fodder. The professionals would come anytime soon and then Kyiv would be taken.

2) Nukes.

3) Even though the Russian military appears increasingly incompetent, they are still capable of creating immense damage and destruction.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by drran on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:19AM (#31037399)
This prediction is correct for pre-war Ukraine. We lost Crimea without a fight. Now we have 8 years of experience and will to fight, because everyone lost somebody they know. However, Ukrainian army is poorly equipped. 200 thousand reservists cannot join Ukrainian army because of lack of equipment. We are trying to squeeze the last few drops from our reserves.

We badly need new trucks. I have a driver (I'm lieutenant), but have no truck, because my truck was used in Chornobyl, so it's not operable now because of 30 years of out of service at conservation. If I have a truck, I can swap my cabin from Chornobyl truck to new truck and create a working communication station, but I cannot find a cheap truck to buy.

If you have a barely working truck, please, sent it to Ukraine, Rivne, Ukrainian Army, 55 OPZ, 1 battalion.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by dr_dshiv on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:36AM (#31037505)
Not sure if this is serious, but how would a private individual send a truck? I have friends trying to transport supplies to Ukraine and they are finding it is quite difficult to make deliveries.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by drran on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:10AM (#31037692)
I have no idea. Before the war, cars from the USA were delivered by sea in shipping containers to Odessa. Now, Odessa in blocked by Russians, so cargo must be shipped to EU first, and then transported to Ukraine via Poland. There are some Ukrainian firms, which are providing logistic. I can also ask my mentor from Britain to help with delivery. I put my email into profile details, if you have a truck for me, because I badly need a truck. I'm OK with the truck from Chornobyl, because we are living close to Chornobyl anyway, but we cannot repair it because of lack of parts and because the main quarters were left due to risk of missile strike. We are all in the fields now.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by Symbiote on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:59AM (#31037632)
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by ezhux on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:12AM (#31037707)
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by rebuilder on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:04AM (#31037661)
The calculus has changed. Previous defence spending was based on a much less aggressive Russian posture than what they’ve now taken. Since Russia is willing to go war in Europe, which almost no-one really thought possible before, the deterrent must be increased to account for the increased risk.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by mission_failed on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:13AM (#31037364)
Most countries would prefer to prevent the Russians ever entering their country and committing war crimes.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by throwaway4good on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:23AM (#31037421)
By "traditional" warfare I meant something similar to the campaigns against Serbia or the second Iraq war.

Basically long bombing campaigns targeting everything from military targets, to TV-stations, to train stations, while the opponent was unable to respond, leaving them broken and demoralized.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by klausjensen on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:10AM (#31037694)
Two main reasons for European increase in military spending (in no particular order):

1. The latest Russian invasion was a wake-up call. Much bigger than in 2014, when Russia invaded Crimea and East Ukraine. Especially Germany and France have been attempting to reach a lasting peaceful relationship with Russia through trade and agreements. Any hope anybody in Europe might have had of that has evaporated now.

2. Fear that the US will not be there to defend Europe in the future (Trump threatened to leave NATO - and might be re-elected). One of the (fair) reasons behing Trump's threats were European NATO countried not paying their fair share (2% of GDP in 2014 agreement).

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by mcv on Friday April 15, 2022 @05:11AM (#31038030)
Exactly. European countries are finally realising they can't rely on the US to defend them forever, and Russia has become a much more active threat.

For all my life I've opposed defense spending and supported reduction of defense spending, but not anymore. As long as Putin rules Russia, Russia is a real threat to any neighbouring country. Even if my own country is relatively safe, I think it's important we help other countries to defend themselves against this threat.

I would still strongly prefer friendly relationships with Russia, but Putin has made that impossible. We need to stop buying Russian gas as soon as possible.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by TulliusCicero on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:48AM (#31037904)
> If the Russians are so weak and incompetent then why is nearly every European country doubling their military expenditures?

Even being not very good at war they've been able to do a lot of damage and war crimes.

Plus, some of those countries have had pretty terrible militaries themselves; the head of the German army admittedly recently that their capability as a fighting force is very limited. A lot of Europe was basically coasting militarily because they thought war in Europe was over forever.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by uuyi on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:02AM (#31037646)
Russia isn’t the only player on the board. There’s a whole load of sabre rattling from China which military leaders have been warning about for years. This is some leverage to build a defence strategy against them and other actors too.

Plus Russia could probably do some damage and would be difficult if not impossible to completely take out due to the size of their land mass.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by dmitriid on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:11AM (#31037358)
Russia still has the sheer numbers. Wikipedia lists

   Active personnel 1,014,000
   Reserve personnel 2,000,000
They only deployed less than 100k in Uraine, and it's tied one of the largest armies in Europe.

Europe hasn't had an army to speak of for decades (and for a good reason). So "doubling military expenditures" for most of Europe is "going from nearly zero to slightly more than zero".

> air campaigns against anything remotely "dual-use" and the massive civil casualties that would follow.

They don't have to be "pushed". They have been basically doing that since the war started.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by terafo on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:41AM (#31037536)
They don't have sheer numbers unless they go full mobilization. They already put almost entire Russian ground force, which is 280k, into battle almost 200k of it went into Ukraine with initial invasion force. And since then they've been moving everything they have left into Ukraine(military contingent from karabakh and abkhazia regions, troops from far east etc.). 1 million is the capacity of their whole military, and ground troops that could be used in the invasion are only the fraction of it(airforce is useful, but can't be used as ground troops, fleet isn't that useful TBH and only fraction of it is in the Black sea right now and they can't get more there). And they need at least someone to guard their borders(and Russia's borders are vast).
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by dmitriid on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:57AM (#31037620)
> They don't have sheer numbers unless they go full mobilization. They already put almost entire Russian ground force, which is 280k, into battle

That is sheer numbers. The EU has 1 million active military personnel on paper. Of that, less than 30k are "land troops prepared for deployed and sustained operations" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Security_and_Defence_Po...

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by terafo on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:14AM (#31037719)
This isn't enough to win. Ukrainian Ground Forces were 200k at the beginning of this war, for comparison. And Ukraine have been conducting mobilization since the war started, so it's larger by a lot now and will grow with each day of war.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by drran on Friday April 15, 2022 @06:09AM (#31038413)
200k reservists cannot join Ukrainian army because of lack of equipment and money. I have no truck, for example, so I cannot move a few tonnes of communication equipment rapidly, so my combat-readiness is low.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by dmitriid on Friday April 15, 2022 @06:29AM (#31038554)
> This isn't enough to win.

If only I was discussing that, right?

> And Ukraine have been conducting mobilization since the war started

Yes, but the original question was, "Why is Europe increasing defense spending". The sum total of Europe's deployed forces is smaller than Ukraine's was before this war.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by henrikschroder on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:31AM (#31037808)
> So "doubling military expenditures" for most of Europe is "going from nearly zero to slightly more than zero".

Russia's defence budget is ~50 billion dollars per year.

The combined defence budgets of all of Europe is ~200 billion dollars per year, which is four times as large as Russia's. And that's from before the Ukraine invasion. The bulk of that defence budget belongs to NATO members who already have decades of experience in working together and having a shared command structure. We outspend Russia four to one, and if all European NATO members bump their defence budgets to the 2% requirement, we're gonna outspend Russia seven to one.

Going from four times the defence budget or Russia to seven times the defence budget of Russia is nowhere near going from "nearly zero to slightly more than zero".

> Active personnel 1,014,000

Oh no, a million demotivated peasants with rusty Soviet-era weapons! Whatever shall we do? Best we roll over and let Russia invade and take whatever they want!

You're also stuck in the cold war mentality that Russia is still as big and strong as the Soviet Union was, and it's just not true anymore. Europe has three times the population, four times the defence budget, and ten times the GDP of Russia. Russia has had three decades of unparalleled corruption and decay, and we're supposed to feel threatened?!?

No. Stop. Re-evaluate. Russia is no longer an existential threat to Europe.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by dmitriid on Friday April 15, 2022 @06:07AM (#31038403)
The total "active troops prepared for deployment and sustained operations" in Europe is less than 40k [1]. That's at least 3x fewer than Russia has committed to this war. That's less than Ukraine's deployed military before the war.

> Russia is no longer an existential threat to Europe.

If only I ever said anywhere whether I thought Russia was an existential threat to Europe. Stop. Re-evaluate. There's a specific point I was replying to.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Security_and_Defence_Po...

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by orwin on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:16PM (#31044509)
The difference is that we have almost a thousand meteor ready, tens of thousands MICA and thousands of Scalp missiles. And our aces get 150 to 200h/yr of flight time, including training against F22 which are Su35 but actually good in dogfight. Russian pilots have mixed training and get less than 100 hours on plane. Without air support, you cannot go in an offensive war, even against 10k men. And Russia cannot go against our meteors with anything except their 10 su35(probably), of which at least 5 are prototypes(and they did loose the 11th against IR manpads, which is telling).
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by henrikschroder on Friday April 15, 2022 @05:22PM (#31046008)
> The total "active troops prepared for deployment and sustained operations" in Europe

That's some goal post moving. You were explicitly talking about military expenditures, and your claim that Europe's military expenditures doubling is insignificant is completely laughable given that the current level is already 4x Russia's.

The only reason you pivoted to active troops, pretending we were talking about that all along, is because that's the only number that's bigger on the Russian side of the equation.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by izacus on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:33AM (#31037485)
> Europe hasn't had an army to speak of for decades (and for a good reason). So "doubling military expenditures" for most of Europe is "going from nearly zero to slightly more than zero".

Where do you get these claims? Most European countries are part of NATO which demands a modernized standing army as part of its membership requirements.

While it's true that most countries don't spend the ridiculous amount of their wealth on arms as USA does, the armies of European countries are far from not existing.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by dmitriid on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:55AM (#31037606)
> Most European countries are part of NATO which demands a modernized standing army as part of its membership requirements.

I couldn't be bothered to look beyond Wikipedia, so going by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Security_and_Defence_Po...

1. Most countries spend significatly less than is required by NATO. Nato requires 2% of GDP to be spent on defense. In the EU, only 7 countries are at that threshold, or above it, and of those Finland is not in NATO.

2. France has the largest active military personnel at 200k, and of those, 17k are "prepared for deployed and sustained operations".

At this point all of EU couldn't get an army to respond to Russia's current force engaged in Ukraine.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by realityking on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:09AM (#31037688)
> NATO […] demands a modernized standing army as part of its membership requirements

This is not strictly true and there’s no such legal requirement, only a political one. Case in point id Iceland, which is a NATO member but has no armed forces to speak of.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by unionpivo on Friday April 15, 2022 @08:09AM (#31039243)
This are correct numbers(for active part, reserve are far smaller - money issue) but they include army, navy and air force.

Also the larges part of any military are non combat support personnel. Weather its people building things or transporting them or fixing them. Also manning various stations. Providing security for military installation. Military police. Military intelligence. etc.

So out of 1m people russia only has around 250k combat troops. 190k of which are currently engaged in Ukraine.

And one of the reasons we see all this logistical problems is that Russia has too much combat troops (or too little support) for its support force. In other militaries its usually from 6 to 9 support people for every combat role.

Also remember SU was over 300M (and that without Warsaw pact nations). Russia is less than 150m.

So no Russia does not have endless supply of troops, unless they start mobilization.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by NicoJuicy on Friday April 15, 2022 @06:38AM (#31038599)
NATO trained 33 k. People.

Europe and the countries bordering Russia have a lot of personnel. Sweden even reactivated military duty.

There's a big benefit in decentralized warfare that the NATO has been doing that Russia can't emulate.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by dmitriid on Friday April 15, 2022 @07:05AM (#31038792)
33k people is less than what Ukraine had deployed before the war started.

Countries bordering Russia have very few actively deployed forces. Sweden has 750 ground troops "ready for deployment and sustained operations". Seven hundred and fifty. Finland has ~1750.

> benefit in decentralized warfare that the NATO has been doing that Russia can't emulate

Those decentralized troops have to get to the conflict zones first.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by NicoJuicy on Friday April 15, 2022 @08:05AM (#31039220)
Finland has 21.5 k active and 900 k. Reserves.

Wartime strength is 280 k.

Reserves train yearly.

That's a lot more than 1750...

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by NicoJuicy on Friday April 15, 2022 @12:27PM (#31042147)
Additionally, In Sweden, military duty is also required again since 2017 ( paused on 2010) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Sweden

Actie personel is 24 k, reserve = 31.8 k and Paramilitary = 22 k. - https://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-de...

That's way more than 750 people too...

Where did you even get those numbers?

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by NicoJuicy on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:35AM (#31037831)
Because there are many.

And an ill-maintained tank from the Soviet/ww2 era is still a tank.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by dsq on Friday April 15, 2022 @05:07AM (#31038009)
'Never let a good crisis go to waste'. European leaders have long known they had to increase military ability, they just couldn't persuade their citizens.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by thefz on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:18AM (#31037389)
> If the Russians are so weak and incompetent then why is nearly every European country doubling their military expenditures? And countries that have been neutral through the second world war now rushing into NATO?

I remember reading somewhere, maybe the Guardian, that:

- just 9% of the total russian forces are now deployed against Ukraine

- they thought it will be an easy victory so they sent the lowest grade troops they had.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by sgt101 on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:26AM (#31037779)
Taking Wikipedia as reliable (apologies) The Russian Army has 280k active troops (per :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Ground_Forces) and is thought to have deployed 175k of those (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukrai...)

Contrary to the lowest grade, it seems that many elite forces were used : https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/04/destination-disaster-r... unfortunately they were deployed in an amateur way using a reckless plan. If the reinforcement strategy had come off then everyone would say that it was utterly brilliant, but gambles like this happen in war all the time. We like to venerate the ones that work and to talk about brilliant generals and the glamour of battle. In reality, as in this case they mostly fail and the troops get bogged down and killed.

The Russians have done a surprising and smart thing, which shows that someone in Moscow has the light on still. They've pulled out of the north and completely changed strategy - this shows a strategic flexibility that's really quite impressive, and unusual for a totalitarian regime. The problem that they have now is that the situation in the south is much more difficult than it would have been if they had gone for it at the outset. They don't have much of a reserve because Russia is so vast and the Russians have serious commitments at the border with China and North Korea and so on.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by jacobolus on Friday April 15, 2022 @11:14AM (#31041142)
> The Russians have done a surprising and smart thing, which shows that someone in Moscow has the light on still. They've pulled out of the north and completely changed strategy

They were unable to effectively resupply troops in the North, who were out of food, low on fuel, and lacking supply trucks. Ukranians blew up bridges and local railroads and attacked their lines of supply and communication. Belorussians kept sabotaging rail lines. Russians never got control of large cities where major roads pass, and couldn’t control the airport enough to fly in supplies. At the point they retreated they had been completely stuck with no progress for more than a week, and it was only a matter of time before they were surrounded.

They chose (mostly) orderly retreat over waiting a few more weeks and getting routed and destroyed.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by terafo on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:00AM (#31037640)
You should check your sources. It is closer to 90% of russian forces that are capable of offensive action than to 9%. Military doesn't consist entirely of troops, the bulk of their fleet is useless for example(it can't move into Black Sea since Turkey blocked Dardanelles). Out of 280k of their ground forces almost 200k went into Ukraine with initial invasion and since then they've been sending a lot of reinforcements. So yeah, it's closer to 90%.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by ChuckNorris89 on Friday April 15, 2022 @01:56AM (#31036982)
>You have to be one special piece of shit to destroy such legacy

This isn't the cause by the actions of a single piece of shit (Putin) but the consequences of unchecked sistemic corruption that spans for decades across the entire government apparatus.

I laughed out loud when I saw pictures of the ERA plates on Russian tanks were actually filled with cardboard because what should have been the Russian army modernization, is now parked in the biggest most luxurious yachts in the world and in the most desirable real estate in Europe and North America.

So, as a European who's country had been under forced Russian occupation, and the puppet communist regime there caused scars that will still last for decades, I'm chuck full of joy to see Russia's army being crippled from inside by it's own corrupt system and the greed of it's own leaders. 10/10

I already have my apartment at 20C and can probably tolerate a bit lower if it means starving the Russian army and saving Ukrainian lives.

Still, I expected the Russian government propaganda to spin this news into something like "Heroic Moskva cruiser managed to successfully destroy two enemy Neptune missiles with its hull, causing it to be promoted to the rank of submarine ".

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by henrikschroder on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:06AM (#31037325)
It's become clear to me that a lot of us who grew up during the cold war, kept thinking that Russia was still as much of a threat as the Soviet Union was, which is why so many of us are surprised at this turn of events.

But the Soviet Union fell thirty years ago, an entire generation ago. The Soviet Union had 280 million people, more than the US had at the time. Big. Scary. But Russia today has only 140 million people. Over half the population just up and left when given the chance. They said "thanks, but no thanks" to Moscow.

Sure, Russia still has a big military budget, but their GDP isn't that great. Their GDP is much smaller than Italy's, alone. Smaller than France's, alone. Smaller than Germany's, alone. Hell, even the five Nordic countries have a higher combined GDP than Russia has. Growing up in the Nordics during the cold war meant having to think about Russia as an enormous big bad who could crush us completely if they wanted to. But now, our combined economies are larger.

Russia is corrupt, and has been corrupt for an entire generation. And it's been corrupt on a scale that is unprecedented compared to itself in the past, and compared to the rest of Europe. We complain about the military-industrial complex and how much waste there is, but military contractors in the west actually deliver stuff, whereas all the corrupted half-assery of the Russian military is being exposed now.

The combined defence budget of the EU is about 4 times larger than Russia's. Since the end of the cold war, the EU has been prosperous, peaceful, and happy. We've invested in our defence and grown stronger over the last thirty years, while Russia has declined.

We in the EU have over three times the population, over four times the military budget, and ten times the GDP of Russia. We have nukes and tanks and aircraft carriers and submarines and stealth fighters of our own. And yet so many still view Russia as a threat, as a bigger and stronger foe.

This debacle sure has been eye-opening to me, and I hope it's been that way for everyone else stuck in the cold-war mentality.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by ChuckNorris89 on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:11AM (#31037357)
>The combined defence budget of the EU is about 4 times larger than Russia's. Since the end of the cold war, the EU has been prosperous, peaceful, and happy. We've invested in our defence and grown stronger over the last thirty years, while Russia has declined.

Simple. The EU is not military united but it's pretty much a "every man for himself" kind of thing outside of NATO or a direct attack, but the EU or NATO is currently not under attack so some people see Ukraine as "more of you problem than a me problem"… so other than sending some aid to Ukraine most people don't want to go to war with Russia or suffer crippling energy shortages for Ukraine.

EU leaders are also not immune from kleptocratic greed and external and internal corruption.

Austria is more than happy to keep pumping money into Russia in exchange for cheap gas, as that gas runs 80% of their industry, and several elite Austrian politicians were given top jobs on boards of Russian oil and gas companies to lobby for them and against nuclear or other alternatives, or have straight up offered their support to Russian oligarchs in under-the-table business deals ( the infamous "Ibiza scandal").

Good luck replacing that gas on a whim after several decades of Russian lobbying that lead to the current status quo.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by markdown on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:54AM (#31037604)
> but military contractors in the west actually deliver stuff,

Deliver stuff nobody needs? LOL, the American oligarchs aren't much better. Just because they use a different word (lobbying instead of bribing) doesn't make it any less of a corrupt system.

https://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/77-billion-raptor-22-fighter-...

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/air-force-admits-f-35-...

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2014/12/18/congress-agai...

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by dsego on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:26AM (#31037778)
From the movie "Pentagon Wars". Bradley Fighting Vehicle design and development.

https://youtu.be/aXQ2lO3ieBA

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by nradov on Friday April 15, 2022 @09:44AM (#31040144)
The process was messy, but in the end the US Army got a weapons system that actually worked pretty well. The Bradley Fighting Vehicle was used in multiple conflicts and has had a good operational record.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by ChuckNorris89 on Friday April 15, 2022 @05:56AM (#31038330)
>LOL, the American oligarchs aren't much better. Just because they use a different word (lobbying instead of bribing) doesn't make it any less of a corrupt system.

At least in the US, via lobbying, the bribes are transparent and you can follow the money and see who's pulling the strings.

This is much better than everything being done under the table and assuming there is no corruption because we don't have lobbying, like the classical misconception we have in Europe.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by hedora on Friday April 15, 2022 @10:19AM (#31040553)
The US supreme court basically eliminated campaign finance transparency about 10 years ago.

How do you think Trump and company got in?

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by topspin on Friday April 15, 2022 @02:18AM (#31037103)
> unchecked sistemic[sic] corruption that spans for decades across the entire government apparatus

Centuries, really. The inveterate kleptocracy that is Russia goes back further than the Soviets. The only real crime that exists for the Russian elite is stealing more than allowed. That was true for the Boyars, the Nomenklatura and it remains true for the oligarchy.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by throw_5202 on Friday April 15, 2022 @02:57AM (#31037283)
There was some corruption in Soviet Union (like in most countries around the world with the exception of economically developed or/and democratic countries) but it was not fatal.

Corruption in modern Russia is unique to Putin's regime - he used it (and still uses) as a tool to concentrate power - he puts in position of power only corrupt officials as a mean to get full loyalty - officials not loyal enough can be easily blackmailed, secret services have enough "kompromat" to put any government official into jail but are waiting for a signal from above. Corruption is the foundation for what in Russia called the "vertical of power", which essentially means that a person in a power structure have almost unlimited (limited only by Putin, but not by the law) power over people below.

Looks like this tool has spun out of control.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by topspin on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:15AM (#31037378)
> There was some corruption in Soviet Union ... but if[sic] was not fatal

It was actually fatal. I've studied the corruption that emerged under the Soviets; it was systemic and, in fact, necessary to mitigate the crippling adversities created by Soviet ideology. It is the primary reason the Soviet Union collapsed 30 years ago.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by throw_5202 on Friday April 15, 2022 @05:33AM (#31038156)
I was born in the Soviet Union, read book about Soviet economy and political system (albeit not scientific ones) and have a different take. Corruption is a broad term and one can probably say it was a contribution factor, but may take is that inefficiency of economy and misguided foreign policy (including Afghanistan invasion) were the fatal flaws.

When selecting who to delegate power to, all soviet leaders selected people who are loyal to them and suitable for the job. Loyalty was more important than competence so government was full of incompetent people, but competence was not a disqualifying factor so some of them was able to do the job.

In Putin's power structure people who not steal and cannot be easily blackmailed are not promoted high enough. Being not corrupt _is_ a disqualifying factor. Putin at least in the beginning of his career maintained visibility of a country with the rule of law, so instead jailing opponents on a whim he jailed them for breaking the law, but the law was enforced selectively only for ones who are not fully loyal.

As a result in modern Russia personal enrichment is a much bigger problem that it was in Soviet Union. Soviet nomenklatura [1] was rich compare to poor population but their quality of life was not much better than for upper-middle class in the US. The same nor the case for modern Russia.

Failure of soviet economy as I know was not result of corruption - much more resources were wasted than stolen. Unfortunately I cannot provide any sources here - all I read was in Russian and I cannot find translations to English.

I've seen this inefficiency myself in form of many thousands tons of trees which were cut so harvesting organization would meet KPI for amount of harvested wood but left to rot in the forest because an organization which should transport the wood had not enough capacity to do this (but likely transported all volume on paper, which you may say is corruption, but resources were wasted, not stolen).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomenklatura

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by rgavuliak on Friday April 15, 2022 @06:42AM (#31038617)
Dude, the countries behind Iron Curtain had so much corruption it was insane. In a place where you have trouble buying meat or fruits the only way to get it is to bribe someone and for that someone to lie and/or steal to get it for you.

My country was behind an iron curtain and one of the motto's of that time was: "If one doesn't embelish from the state it means one's embelishing from their family". Even with democracy this mentality won't fully go away for generations. Russia continued on that trajectory to a worse state.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by jotm on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:23AM (#31037754)
If only they realized that if the whole population is richer, their "allowed" portion can go sky high :D
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by rlt on Friday April 15, 2022 @02:37AM (#31037187)
I would also take glee in this, were it not for the substantial (presumably at least partially functional) nuclear arsenal held by this dog being backed into a corner…
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by andrewflnr on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:05AM (#31037322)
I do entertain a faint hope that the rot has also infected Russia's nuclear arsenal, rendering some noticeable fraction of it inoperable or otherwise inert, but not enough to act on it.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by CamperBob2 on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:01AM (#31037641)
From the perspective of a Strategic Rocket Forces commander, what's the upside to actually using the maintenance budget for maintenance? None. It's free money for the taking.

If the US starts WWIII, nobody will be left alive in Russia to care. If Russia starts WWIII, likewise, and it's better if the warheads don't work anyway. Meanwhile, that dacha on the Black Sea coast isn't going to pay for itself, nor is the boat that comes with it.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by andrewflnr on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:02PM (#31044299)
Yeah, but even if 10% of the warheads go off vaguely on target, it's still really bad.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by 243423443 on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:09AM (#31037345)
Do you have a source for the cardboard ERA plates? I only found the following, but apparently there is supposed to be cardboard in between the layers: https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/comments/t73p1e/what_found...
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by ChuckNorris89 on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:23AM (#31037420)
I don't, but if the link you posted is the truth then I could have been mistaken.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by dralley on Friday April 15, 2022 @08:52AM (#31039617)
You can clearly see in the pictures though that there are no plates on the outside.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by bmitc on Friday April 15, 2022 @02:56AM (#31037276)
> because what should have been the Russian army modernization, is now parked in the biggest most luxurious yachts in the world and in the most desirable real estate in Europe and North America.

What worries me is that this is happening in the U.S. as well.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by TulliusCicero on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:51AM (#31037920)
No it's not.

I mean you can definitely argue for inefficiency in the MIC, but you don't see people literally just stealing millions from the allocated budget and shifting it to their bank accounts or megayachts.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by bmitc on Friday April 15, 2022 @12:53PM (#31042505)
It’s happening both at some scale and in some analogous ways. With regards to the latter, wealth and funds are ever shifting more and more to the ultra wealthy and corporations. Corporations and wealthy individuals get massive, massive tax breaks, government contracts, or subsidies. I consider this analogous to stealing from the common people. For the former, the U.S. has an ever increasing population of corrupt politicians and officials.

I am not saying it’s an identical situation, which seems to be the assumption of some. However, the oligarchical nature of the U.S. is not slowing down.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by ChuckNorris89 on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:02AM (#31037308)
In what way? Is the US brass stealing money from the military?
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by AussieWog93 on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:24AM (#31037428)
In a sense, yes.

Contracts are definitely awarded to companies based on their political connections, and not necessarily merits. Look at the whole Halliburton/Cheney shitshow in Iraq for a recent example.

We're talking $40 billion worth of (cost-plus!!!) contracts awarded to a company that was widely viewed as incompetent by the soldiers on the ground, followed by the vice-president getting a position on the board of said company when he retired. This is after he got a $30 million golden parachute after leaving them in 2001.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by ChuckNorris89 on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:34AM (#31037494)
I think all big empires eventually collapse under the weight of excessive greed, systemic corruption and cronyism, where everyone from the top to the bottom is busy stuffing their own bags while everything crumbles around them ("f*ck you, I've got mine, go get yours")

It's just that the US manages to prolong this much longer than others.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by donpott on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:47AM (#31037894)
More to your point, the book “Imperial Life in the Emerald City: Inside Iraq's Green Zone” by Rajiv Chandrasekaran is a scathing indictment on this system, and how incompetent apparatchiks were chosen over less politically connected entities, and how this had a direct hand in the result of the occupation. Strongly recommended!
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by throw_5202 on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:22AM (#31037410)
Not stealing directly but US military industrial complex is a huge money sink which delivers much much less than civilian counterparts for the same money. F-35 story is a shame IMHO.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by ChuckNorris89 on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:26AM (#31037781)
Corruption is a big issues in the west but compared to what's happening in Russia and ex-USSR countries, it's not even in the same ballpark, hell, it's not even in the same planet.

In the west we have free press looking into it and exposing the theft, plus, the theft in the west has very complex schemes to make it look legit on the surface and to make sure nothing sticks to our Teflon politicians, but in Russia they don't need to worry about any red tape BS, they can just shove their hands in the public purse and take as much as they want and go directly to the Lamborghini dealership or the casino without any accountability, and if any reporter looks too deeply into their theft, they get death threats or even death through very suspicious circumstances.

It's orders if magnitude worse.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by nradov on Friday April 15, 2022 @10:06AM (#31040409)
The problems on the Joint Strike Fighter program were caused more by flawed analysis of costs and military requirements than by outright corruption. Very little funding was stolen, and not many individuals have gotten personally wealthy from the program. Lockheed-Martin is now delivering an F-35 Block 4 product that, despite a few remaining minor flaws, substantially meets the customers' requirements. It's just that what the customers thought they wanted back in 1996 no longer aligns with what they actually need today.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by winrid on Friday April 15, 2022 @02:46AM (#31037234)
20C is what most Americans set their heaters to AFAIK (68F). Glad to know we're sticking it to the Russians... :)
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by Symbiote on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:07AM (#31037674)
A lot of British people set theirs to around 18°C.

It took me years to get used to the heat indoors when I moved to Scandinavia.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by mechanical_bear on Friday April 15, 2022 @02:49AM (#31037247)
Mine is set to 67f. Put on a sweater, it’s fine.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by aww_dang on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:23AM (#31037422)
"Go outside and split some wood, you'll feel warm when you come back in"
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by ChuckNorris89 on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:44AM (#31037546)
I've seen this in the military during the winter where a conscript complained he was cold so the drill instructor had him strip to his bare ass and stay like that for 2 minutes then asked:

"Are you cold now?"

"Yes sir!"

"Now get dressed!", "Are you still cold?"

"No sir!"

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by kwhitefoot on Friday April 15, 2022 @06:14AM (#31038450)
I don't even have central heating in my house (in Norway), it is almost never as warm as 20°C in the winter and I manage fine.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by dreamsbythelake on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:35AM (#31037834)
Amen, brother. As someone who belonged, when you put on the chest your AKM, take that red folder and say "Торжественно клянусь" - you swear to protect those people no matter what. And when you turn you weapon on them ... I don't expect russian military men to read HN and understand English :-), but anyway - once you turn your weapon on civilians, you may take those epaulets, stick them up your ass and hope nobody can find you. But they will.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by rich_sasha on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:31AM (#31037809)
I wonder if the current situation looks very different to what the German attack looked like in 1941. AFAIK Russians were then too terribly underequiped, undertrained and taking heavy losses in a rapid retreat.

Except then they were being attacked, had the Russian winter on their side, and had conscription and the heavy industry fully mobilised. Plus eventually lots of American-made kit (which wasn’t necessarily better weaponry but at least was made to plan, had spare parts etc).

It took the Russians a while to transition to the great victory in the “great patriotic war”.

Incidentally, this is why I don’t write them off yet, though I sincerely hope Ukraine clocks in a big win. Russians do have the resilience and stubbornness to push through. Whether that can overcome decades of corruption etc remains to be seen.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by federoccco on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:46AM (#31037888)
But it wasn’t the Russians in WW2, there were everyone Soviet, from Ukrainians to Georgians, and Russians of course, but to give the Russians the mantle of only WW2 winners from Soviet side is wrong I think.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by vasac on Friday April 15, 2022 @05:07AM (#31038003)
Yeah, Russians are responsible for bad things, real and invented. But if something good was done then it was done by Soviets.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by drran on Friday April 15, 2022 @05:54AM (#31038311)
Russians invade other countries because they are not capable to produce good things by themselves. They need someone to build advanced weapons, armor, ships, planes, rockets, goods for export. Good warriors are bad makers, usually.

For example, if you are incapable to build a house, then you need to hire someone to build it for you. If you have no money, but you have an army, then you can just enslave him instead. Russian Empire is the jail of nations.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by rich_sasha on Friday April 15, 2022 @07:24AM (#31038923)
Hmm, well, not sure, actually weapon-making in USSR was mostly constrained to Russia proper. The more advanced the weapons, the more they were constrained.

Much of the “allies” produced simple bits of kit, but the advanced parts of them, designing etc were generally kept in Russia just in case.

Ukraine is a bit of an exception, I guess because it was seen as more of an “insider”. This is why their weapons industry is actually so comprehensive (anti ship missiles, anti tank weapons etc).

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by federoccco on Friday April 15, 2022 @07:09AM (#31038817)
2 of my Ukrainian great-grandfathers died in WW2, many other relatives that I do not know about. Were they Russians? Soviets did plenty of bad things, I don't get that jab. Many Russians now in Russia hate the Soviet moniker and look at the October Revolution as a catastrophe.

Only for Westerners Soviet == Russian, which puzzles me absolutely.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by rich_sasha on Saturday April 16, 2022 @03:26AM (#31050382)
I think of the “Soviet block” as a Russian colonial empire. Like other such empires it drew ranks from different nationalities, ostensibly was ran for the benefit of all of its members, but really only for the Russians, though in a perverse way.

That way was the realisation (continuation?) of the “Great Russia” project. People may not have civil liberties, may be poor and terrorised, but the outside is terrified too.

Did the Ukrainians, Georgians and Estonians want nuclear standoffs with the US for its own sake? Did they want to invade Czechoslovakia in 1968?

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by hedora on Friday April 15, 2022 @10:31AM (#31040690)
Westerners are usually referring to the Russian leadership. There's a straight line of corruption from the Soviets to Putin.

Also, we're bad at geography, and "former soviet state" is easy / lazy.

Finally, I know lots of Ukrainians that grew up in Russia and vice versa, and can't really keep all the permutations straight. (As I can't for my colleagues from any continent.)

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by federoccco on Friday April 15, 2022 @12:08PM (#31041841)
a bit of nitpicking — but the Soviet Union never really had predominantly Russian leadership, which would be disproportionate to the Russian part of the Soviet population. Lenin was from a Russian noble but ethnically diverse family. Stalin was a Georgian and spoke Russian with an incredibly thick accent to the end of his life. Khrushchev and Brezhnev were Ukrainians, and so on.

But I get your point, and now it makes more sense to me.

I see in Putin more of that monarchist strain — chauvinism from the times of Imperial Russia, which indeed was so much focused on that "RRR-Russian" identity, much more "blood and soil" ideology. And add to that Late Soviet state "efficiency".

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by varispeed on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:50AM (#31037917)
The "great patriotic war" is Russian propaganda - they had to find a term to distance themselves from the fact they started the war together with Hitler and only turned against him when he decided to attack Russians. Otherwise Hitler and Stalin were great pals.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by shmerl on Friday April 15, 2022 @02:19AM (#31037108)
When thieves run the country, why do you think the army won't be rotten all way through and steal all they could as well filling their own pockets instead of maintaining quality? Putin caught his own tail in this.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by ChuckNorris89 on Friday April 15, 2022 @02:31AM (#31037158)
Because Putin probably received assurance from his yes-men that the army is in tip top condition and they were so disconnected from reality, they probably didn't expect those down the food chain to be as thieving as they were at the top.

I assume Putin has already gulaged some scapegoats that his cronies found responsible for this current mess.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by shmerl on Friday April 15, 2022 @02:55AM (#31037269)
He clearly will, since he can't show any success in the war. So he has to show success in finding who is guilty in the failure (to make it not him), uncovering some "conspiracy" and such.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by ChuckNorris89 on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:04AM (#31037320)
I wouldn't be surprised to hear that those being thrown under the bus have mysteriously "committed suicide" by shooting themselves in the back five times before jumping off a bridge or driving head on into a tree with no brakes, so they wouldn't talk.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by fsiefken on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:10AM (#31037349)
yes, for example a high ranking FSB official

https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-fsbs-beseda-in-prison...

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by HigherPlain on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:09AM (#31037685)
Business Insider is not a credible news source, although the paywalled Times (UK) seems to be reporting it too.
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by mushbino on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:35AM (#31037496)
Ukraine doesn't have a navy or air force anymore and a large portion of their mechanized force has been taken out. You wouldn't know it by listening to western media though. European/NATO countries are increasing their military spending for a reason.

Russia has definitely been losing the propaganda war, that's for sure.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by TulliusCicero on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:53AM (#31037931)
Ukraine already didn't really have a navy lol.

As for mechanized force, they've been taking far fewer losses than Russia, due to having so many western portable anti-tank missiles + defender's advantage. And now that they're starting to get more armored vehicles from the West, things are looking up.

Russia expected to win easily and they've been getting hammered instead.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by mushbino on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @08:14PM (#31174755)
Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by xenadu02 on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:50AM (#31037582)
The conventional thinking was that the Russian Steamroller would flatten Ukraine within 3-5 days. Absolutely no one suspected the war would last this long. In that sense it is far from just a "propaganda war".

I don't know why it should surprise anyone. People who make Putin unhappy end up with "accidental" polonium poisoning. Is there any reason to suspect the Russian military hasn't suffered some for that? Or that the Russian military-industrial complex hasn't suffered some due to looting, corruption, and incompetence?

I'm not delusional. Russia has the resources (and human bodies) to waste on this for as long as it takes. If the leadership has the political will they will probably win eventually. It seems unlikely to be worth the cost but Russia would hardly be the first country to pay $100 for a penny in that regard.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by blub on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:57AM (#31037621)
What media would you suggest?

Surprisingly, I’ve found AlJazeera to be quite professional, if slightly biased for up-to-date news.

Reports from rusi.org are interesting, but not free and some do have a whiff of opinion/cheering, which is rather suspect.

Books by Mark Galeotti offer insight into the various Soviet and Russian conflicts and into their military forces.

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by klausjensen on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:18AM (#31037732)
If you want some more background rather than news, I recommed Gary Kasparov's book "Winter is coming".

It is from 2015, but describes the process from the collapse of the Soviet Union and how Russia turned into effectively a fascist dictatorship.

https://www.publicaffairsbooks.com/titles/garry-kasparov/win...

Re:Sunken Moskva Could Be the Biggest Naval Combat Loss in 4... by federoccco on Friday April 15, 2022 @05:01AM (#31037976)
Well I’m in Kyiv and that’s definitely not true :)

But keep believing in that, it will make our job easier.