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Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by AlexandrB on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @05:55PM (#24137478)
This is evergreen when talking about Hyperloop: http://www.cat-bus.com/2017/12/gadgetbahn/

The problems with building this have nothing to do with technology but with right-of-way, investment, and politics. If those factors were solved, we'd already have high-speed rail in places where Hyperloop has been proposed. The fact that we don't says that Hyperloop is unlikely to be feasible as well.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by owenversteeg on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @06:57PM (#24138058)
That "Gadgetbahn" article is great, but I do have one criticism.

From the article: "If the idea is viable and the people behind it are competent, it should have attracted private investment, as there should be a potential to make profit selling the technology. After all, the proposal has been around for 23 years."

High speed rail on a large scale is really something that has to come from the government. While there are small private HSR projects (e.x. Brightline, covering some 60 miles of the Florida coast), the big successes have all been governmental, and that shouldn't be surprising.

The uncomfortable part of HSR, of course, is that no matter how perfect your government is, it's going to involve bulldozing some people's homes, conflicting with other government projects, and interfering with nature. Don't get me wrong, I'm not part of team "screw the law, bulldoze straight lines between cities, people and nature be damned". But there do need to be sacrifices made. And a strong, coordinated government can pass the laws and write the checks to make that happen.

The interesting thing with HSR is that it is not about the technology. The TGV was operating at 300 km/h nearly 50 years ago, and that's the speed that most of the network operates at today. It's not about the safety (the TGV has never had a fatal accident in normal service) or even the cost (the TGV is also profitable!)

It's about the land. A fairly small strip of land in a straight line. My hope is that as people realize this, we'll do what has to be done and tear down a few villages in order to save the planet. But that's politically unpalatable, so instead we have Gadgetbahnen.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by owenversteeg on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @11:09PM (#24139591)
Since this is getting to be a bit popular, I'm going to push the "technology really doesn't matter" point a bit more here: in 1955 the French built this [0] (just look at the picture!) and sent it down a traditional (wooden sleepers, rocks for ballast) rail line between Bordeaux and Irun [1]. It got up to 333 km/h, which is faster than any TGV currently operates in the year 2020 on their fancy concrete HSR tracks.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SNCF_BB_9004_photo_1.JPG

[1] Side note: that bit from Bordeaux to Irun is quite possibly my favorite train line in the world. Absolutely beautiful views towards the Irun end.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by ant6n on Thursday August 13, 2020 @12:36AM (#24139969)
To be fair, That was a test run, where the locomotives and infra where specially prepared and did take some damage. This was a long way from operating at 320km/h every day - and today there is a 10% safety Margin, so tgvs have to be able to run at 352km/h without special prep or damage in order to be allowed to run at 320km/h during normal operation.

For comparison, a tgv test run in 2007 got up to 575km/h on fancy new track, also with some prep but no damage, but operating at this speed would make little economic sense at this point.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TGV_world_speed_record

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by simonebrunozzi on Thursday August 13, 2020 @01:34AM (#24140246)
Great!

Even better, this steam-powered train, reaching 126 mph (203 km/h) in year 1938! [0]

Why do I know about this? Because I played Railroad Tycoon as a teenager in ~1990, and got fascinated by trains.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNER_Class_A4_4468_Mallard

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by avianlyric on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @10:44PM (#24139466)
Reading the article I got them impression that when the author said:

> "If the idea is viable and the people behind it are competent, it should have attracted private investment, as there should be a potential to make profit selling the technology. After all, the proposal has been around for 23 years."

They are referring specifically to the development of the technology I.E. the trains and rail equipment. Not to an actual infrastructure project.

The argument being that governments should find the infrastructure, and buy technologies developed using private funds.

Indeed this what we see in the rail industry where companies like Siemens develop rail “packages” which are then sold to multiple infrastructure projects with only minor customisation and modifications.

This is in contrast to the example project where a team wanted $250mil to develop new technologies, and also deploy them. Rather than just deploying an already developed technology.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by rtpg on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @08:03PM (#24138566)
High speed rail is also a bit of a red herring. In dense areas you’re not actually going to go fast! “Normal” trains would work fine and be helpful.

TGV and Shinkansen go really far! But what makes people in France or Japan take the train a lot is much more around local trains that are just going at normal speeds.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by noahtallen on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @11:36PM (#24139725)
I think the counterpoint in the US is that most cities are very far apart and there is practically nothing in between. Obviously places like the northeast corridor or the Bay Area are much more dense. But even a route from SF->Seattle is mostly traveling through non-dense areas. That gets even better across the west and Midwest
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by aidenn0 on Thursday August 13, 2020 @02:06AM (#24140418)
Wires than that. Most people live on the border of the cities and the nothing. Suburbs are practically designed to make mass transit expensive and slow.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by thdrdt on Thursday August 13, 2020 @03:36AM (#24140885)
This is why I don't get why gondola lifts are not more popular for both people and cargo.

Maybe in cities the wind is an issue.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by robryk on Thursday August 13, 2020 @04:21AM (#24141112)
They used to be quite popular for cargo (IIUC trucks displaced them) and apparently they are becoming used again: https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2011/01/aerial-ropeways-auto...
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by titzer on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @10:49PM (#24139490)
> The uncomfortable part of HSR, of course, is that no matter how perfect your government is, it's going to involve bulldozing some people's homes, conflicting with other government projects, and interfering with nature. Don't get me wrong, I'm not part of team "screw the law, bulldoze straight lines between cities, people and nature be damned". But there do need to be sacrifices made. And a strong, coordinated government can pass the laws and write the checks to make that happen.

It's worth pointing out that since the 1950s the government has been doing just that and more to build the vast network of interstate highways and state roads. People don't bat an eyelash at demolishing nature for a monster interchange, but propose more rail and suddenly it's so important to consider the environmental impacts and the eminent domain issues.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by akiselev on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @11:21PM (#24139652)
Interstate highway construction slowed dramatically in the 70s after federal funds largely dried up except for the remaining critical arteries like the Colorado I70. Since then, a dozen highways proposals have come and gone because of eminent domain and environmental impact lawsuits in Southern California alone.

The I710 expansion, for example, was finally axed a few years ago after six decades of opposition from South Pasadena and the surrounding cities. At one point the state was considering a plan to tunnel under the town for about a $billion a mile because the opposition was so intractable (well funded and connected) before Caltrans gave up and started selling all the housing they'd been accumulating for decades for the project.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by roywiggins on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @11:19PM (#24139643)
During the era of freeway construction they usually built the enormous interchanges through marginalized neighborhoods. Nobody with political power cares because they don't live there; nobody who lives there can prevent it happening.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by privong on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @10:12PM (#24139291)
> the TGV is also profitable

Correct me if I’m wrong, but my impression is that this is only true if one excludes the capital costs associated with the railroad (tracks, right of way, and I think also rolling stock). If you factor in the infrastructure construction costs (and reasonable lifetimes for replacing rolling stock), a high speed trail line will never be profitable without significantly higher fare prices than are presently charged.

But that goes to further support your point that high speed rail can only be accomplished with government input.

To be fair, I think that the same argument can be made for the costs of interstate highway systems and passenger air travel.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by owenversteeg on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @10:54PM (#24139517)
As far as I know, the TGV is indeed profitable even subtracting that. I believe the maintenance of the tracks falls under SNCF Réseau (owned by SNCF) and the rolling stock falls under SNCF.

Figures for the profitability of the individual lines, with construction costs included, can be found here [0] in French. You'll see several lines with yearly rates of return in the ~7-15% range depending on how you measure things. I'd call that excellent, especially given that there are other massive benefits (environmental, health, safety, national security etc) involved that are not included in that calculation.

That said, I may be forgetting to include something, so I may be wrong. But, like you said, only further supports the point that high speed rail can only be accomplished with government input :)

[0] http://geoconfluences.ens-lyon.fr/informations-scientifiques...

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by klipt on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @10:33PM (#24139396)
Public transit is almost always unprofitable without some way of capturing the increased land value near the stations.

Supposedly some subways (eg Hong Kong?) own the land near the stations and use the rents to fund the subway, rather than just using fares.

A land value tax that goes back into public transit would probably work too.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by SenHeng on Thursday August 13, 2020 @12:48AM (#24140025)
That's how it works in Japan. All the major train companies own the land around the major train stations and that's why you see all these department stores named after a train company.

Here's one, just follow the links to the group companies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokyu_Department_Store

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by URSpider94 on Thursday August 13, 2020 @01:01AM (#24140090)
Yup, if you’ve spent time in Japan, you can see how stores, hotels and attractions are laid out to drive train passenger traffic.

The same was true for streetcars in the USA, many streetcar companies built amusement parks in the countryside at the end of their lines to encourage weekend trips.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by freeone3000 on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @10:42PM (#24139447)
Regular property tax works fine. Montreal recaptures the increase as values rise through transfer taxes and ocassional reassesments.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by wombatpm on Thursday August 13, 2020 @01:06AM (#24140111)
Transfer taxes are avoided by the wealthy. See London and NYC. An LLC purchased property. From that point the LLC is bought/sold/merged and the assets never change ownership
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by andrepd on Thursday August 13, 2020 @05:21AM (#24141419)
Maybe that ought to be fixed as well.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by klipt on Thursday August 13, 2020 @01:00AM (#24140089)
Unfortunately California doesn't have regular property tax thanks to Prop 13: even if values rise, taxes don't.

So high speed rail in California is always going to be a boondoggle.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by stevep98 on Thursday August 13, 2020 @02:11PM (#24146306)
I was told that Hong Kong metro makes more from real estate rental than ticket sales.

And just look at what we put next to our Bart stations: giant parking structures. Sigh.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by ant6n on Thursday August 13, 2020 @12:39AM (#24139980)
Supposedly the Hong Kong metro is already profitable just via fares.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by dongvsascript on Thursday August 13, 2020 @03:15PM (#24147132)
libed there a bit and have this to say: to cover thise extra costs, they would have to charge a ridiculous amount per ticket. like double the cost if a flight to those destinations. and they do. $300 for a 5 hour train ride. so i can totally see this being profitable all costs uncluded.

here's why i think they get customers. people don't like airports and plane travel, so they'll pay more for rail. car travel is unpleasant. cars are tiny and uncomfortable. their tolls are insane. like $50 in tolls for that same drive. less people have cars, and getting an license is a big expensive thing. they don't do roadtrips.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by specialist on Thursday August 13, 2020 @08:41AM (#24142728)
"High speed rail on a large scale is really something that has to come from the government."

We learned about this in highschool history.

From wikipedia:

The Pacific Railroad Acts of 1862 were a series of acts of Congress that promoted the construction of a "transcontinental railroad" (the Pacific Railroad) in the United States through authorizing the issuance of government bonds and the grants of land to railroad companies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Railroad_Acts

All transportation is subsidized by government. Great investment; I'm completely on board. With the understanding that owners and operators pay back via taxes. (Whatever is fair, something modest.)

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by sudosysgen on Thursday August 13, 2020 @11:46AM (#24144586)
You can also, like the French or the Canadians or the Germans or really most countries, have your public transport infrastructure be outright publicly owned. Presuming the government is competent, of course.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by KSteffensen on Thursday August 13, 2020 @04:24AM (#24141126)
If it's about the land then how come we can build freeways? Those essentially have the same problem
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by 11thEarlOfMar on Thursday August 13, 2020 @11:40AM (#24144495)
"It's about the land."

It seems that the tunneling was meant to solve this in urban areas. Open farmland is easier to manage, perhaps leasing the strip from the owners, gaining right-of-way over roadways by working with local governments.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by disk0 on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @08:16PM (#24138650)
first time I heard that term was in donoteat01's video on the loop[0], haven't got around to reading that post till now though (thanks for the reminder)

[0] Elon Musk's "Loop" - It's bad, folks https://youtu.be/4dn6ZVpJLxs

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by mc32 on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @11:43PM (#24139756)
His style reminds me of RedLetterMedia's takedown[1] of Star Wars, but more technical.

[1]https://www.redlettermedia.com/plinkett-reviews/mr-plinketts...

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by TimSchumann on Thursday August 13, 2020 @08:04PM (#24151518)
Great video, thanks for sharing it. Haven't heard of this guy before but he does a really nice breakdown.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by sudosysgen on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @09:54PM (#24139199)
donoteat01 is legitimately one of the greatest techno-political YouTubers.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by tomcam on Thursday August 13, 2020 @01:20AM (#24140164)
I agree and my politics are definitely not his
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by jojobas on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @09:17PM (#24139032)
Three words: vacuum expansion seals.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by Robotbeat on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @11:23PM (#24139660)
There are multiple ways to solve this problem. It’s not a showstopper.

1) Bury the lines. Basically isothermal at depth.

2) insulate the tube and maintain stable temperature

3) use materials that don’t drastically change length with temperature

3) allow the tubes to change length. Put them on rollers.

4) use vacuum expansion joints just like us common in vacuum engineering.

People act like vacuum is this new thing. Physicists (well, Engineers/technicians hired by physics projects) have been making really long tubes with extremely high vacuum and incredibly high tolerances. This is easy in comparison.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by sudosysgen on Thursday August 13, 2020 @11:56AM (#24144708)
No one has ever made a vacuum tube 600km long with a cross-section of over a meter. Much less one that has to maintain vacuum with a super heavy train going at 400m/s. This is at least an order of magnitude more difficult than anything of the same nature. It's really not comparable to anything in existence. CERN is a Tonka truck by comparison.

Burying the lines would already make it an order of magnitude more expensive than what was promised. And now you have to compensate for ground movements, since your tube is fat and hundreds of kilometers in length, which makes it even more expensive.

Insulating the tubes to maintain temperature would be incredibly costly, and if there ever was a failure or natural disaster that prevented you from keeping up the power need, your tube will break.

Materials that have such little temperature change coefficients are much too expensive to build a 600km long multiple meter wide tube with.

If you allow the tubes to change length, your stations will move, sometimes in unpredictable directions. You also risk gigantic stresses caused by temperature differentials causing bending forces.

Vacuum expansion joints of that scale, for such a length, with such reliability are literally unheard of. And would likely be insanely expensive.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by jojobas on Thursday August 13, 2020 @12:19AM (#24139892)
1) Kaa-ching! You can't just bury it as a gas tube. It has to be suspended in a tunnel to allow for ground movement compensation etc.

2) Kaa-ching! Both upfront and ongoing.

3) Kaa-ching! There is reason materials such as Invar are not found in railways, and cost is only one of them.

4) There is no precedent to using vacuum seals at that scale (or maintaining vacuum in that sort of volume).

Elon Musk just says "let it be suspended on roller supports so the terminals slide dozens of meters". Nothing wrong with that surely.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by tomcam on Thursday August 13, 2020 @01:21AM (#24140171)
Downvoted because of sarcasm? Honestly want to know, because it's all true, whether you like it or not.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by hoseja on Thursday August 13, 2020 @02:07AM (#24140423)
I'd say downvoted because self-satisfied smugness.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by jbay808 on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @11:46PM (#24139766)
Good point. A little hyperloop is nothing compared with CERN.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by jojobas on Thursday August 13, 2020 @12:21AM (#24139907)
Cern beam tube is 6.3cm in diameter. And, you know, it didn't have trains zooming in it at 600m/s.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by scoopertrooper on Thursday August 13, 2020 @01:24AM (#24140188)
Also it's not even that long, it's only about 27 km, which pales in comparison to the globe-crossing aspirations of the hyperloopers.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by liability on Thursday August 13, 2020 @03:02PM (#24146979)
It's puzzling how you could get this so backwards. Just how big do you think CERN is? Or are you comparing to to the 'Hyperloop test tracks which are mere hundreds of meters long and have enough problems already?
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by sroussey on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @11:46PM (#24139764)
Plus earthquakes
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by _ph_ on Thursday August 13, 2020 @04:33AM (#24141162)
I am disagreeing with the article. Of course, when designing/selling new train systems, a lot of showmanship and gadgetery are involved, but there are real shortcomings with current train systems which cause people to develop new technologies.

First of all: trains are great, there are many places where they perform admirably. Many cities have a great subway network, countries like France, Japan, Taiwan and now China have great high speed reail networks. So if there are transportation problems to solve, it should be a no-brainer to consider traditional train systems first.

However, there are shortcomings wiht traditional train systems, these new systems try to address. One big limitation for trains is, where to put the tracks. Inside cities, going underground usually is the only solution. With traditional rail, this is extremely expensive and also a slow process. In Munich, not log ago the digging for a new underground train line started - it is expected to take a whole decade and going to be quite expensive (which has delayed the project by another decade, as people were discussing costs). Outside of cities, rail is possible, but still faces problems to get the necessary ground. Noise is a further problems with trains. Finally, most traditional train systems are not operated autonomusly, so costs are too high for high frequencies and often enough there are just not enough drivers available.

These shortcomings create a lot of creativity to address them. The Boring companie tries to lower tunnel costs by making them less in diameter. Other systems try carts which run on or hang from stilts, reducing the space needed or allowing the train installations to go on top of existing roads.

Maglevs are still a huge topic. On the one side, they do allow higher speeds, as rails get mechanically challenging above 300kph. The only challenge for maglev is air resistance, there is no risk of derailing. Also, at any speed, maglevs are less noisy than rails, they can accelerate faster than rail and most importanly, go up much higher inclines. Maglev is therefore not only interesting for long-distance transportation, but also inside city regions, especially due to the lower noise and also because of autonomous operations. A good example is this maglev system: https://transportsystemboegl.com/ It is designed for city regions, fully autonomous and not just some technology concept, but ready-to-buy. It has been developed by a major construction company. That means, they won't just sell you some fancy technology, they are going to build the whole infrastructure for you ready to use. This is one of the two companies responsible for the quick building process at the Tesla Giga Berlin factory. They are basically factory producing the parts for industrial buildings and just assembling them on-site. (Ironically Volkswagen is also building a new factory for electric cars in Bremen, Germany at the moment and it looks exactly like what Tesla is building, as they ordered the factory from the same company)

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by yosamino on Thursday August 13, 2020 @07:13AM (#24142079)
> However, there are shortcomings wiht traditional train systems, these new systems try to address. One big limitation for trains is, where to put the tracks. [...] The Boring companie tries to lower tunnel costs by making them less in diameter.Other systems try carts which run on or hang from stilts, reducing the space needed or allowing the train installations to go on top of existing roads.

Which is one of the main points of the article: the limiting factor is not the type of propulsion, but how and where to put the tracks.

Tunneling is expensive. Decreasing tunnel diameter just turns one knob of that system. Emergency access, switching and mergeing systems, and access to the tunnel itself use space and cost money. And if the idea is to just add tunnels to increase capacity, then that is probably more expense than building a proper train system with higher passenger density in the first place.

Trains that hang from stilts still need the stilts to sit on the ground somewhere.

Trains that sit atop of roads are limitied in their speed, by the traffic these roads where originally designed for. The curves might not be suitable to go around at high speeds.

You can't also just increase speed - acceleration and deceleration forces as well as the forces acting on a whatever kind of pod on whatever kind of track are physical limitations that affect passenger safety and comfort.

All these ideas improve on some small aspect of the system as a whole, but they do not solve the fundamental difficulties inherent in designing public transportation - they do the job, but not without the same real world problems that we have with traditional rail.

Autonomous operation for increased frequency might make some sense, but then that's something that can probably be retro-fitted to existing systems, and has little to do with the propulsion system in use.

... and I know of at least one urban public transport system where the limiting factor for increased frequency is ( apart from the issue that six train lines share one bottleneck track ) the time the doors take to close safely... not something I would have had on my radar as being a problem.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by Skye on Thursday August 13, 2020 @07:29AM (#24142205)
I have a few nitpicks...

Making train tunnels cheaper by making them smaller is not a new idea. it is a very old idea. Have a look at the deep level tube lines of the London underground. In some ways, we regret having trains that small since it reduces capacity and makes it nigh impossible to air condition.

It's possible to make normal trains go over existing roads, elevated rail is also a very old thing, a lot of it did get taken down though.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by _ph_ on Thursday August 13, 2020 @10:58AM (#24143970)
Normal trains are designed to support very high loads, as they are using tracks suitable for cargo transport. For urben people transport, you don't need that carrying capacity, so the rails as well as the trains are unnecessarily heavy. Also, the wagons are larger than needed. It absolutely makes sense to rethink the whole system.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by Skye on Thursday August 13, 2020 @09:25PM (#24152118)
There is such a thing as "light rail" though. Lighter tracks, lighter trains, and cheaper construction.

Also if you want small trains, just look at the UK. Normal trains here are much narrower than normal US trains, they are about as wide as modern trams! And the London underground has trains that are tiny and shaped to make the most out of circular tunnels.

You don't need to rethink the entire system for the points you've raised there...

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by aaron695 on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @10:45PM (#24139468)
The entire point of the Hyperloop is to get around right of way and politics.

That is it's design. That is exactly what Elon is doing.

You might argue it can't do what it's setting out to achieve, but this has never been a technological solution.

He's designed a technology to fit with current societal processes rather than the old, get society to accept a technology.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by Robotbeat on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @11:30PM (#24139702)
Exactly this. That’s why The Boring Company is focusing on reducing the costs of tunneling dramatically. And they started by just using existing technology. With that (and without the cost inflation that many corrupted projects experience), they were able to achieve about $10 per mile of tunnel. A lane of highway per direction is $1m to $8m depending on if it’s rural or urban.

They’ve developed a new machine, Prufroc, that’s supposed to be much faster and capable of “porpoising” (ie angling back up and curving straight) so you can avoid having to excavate a deep station through other means.

If they can get the cost equivalent to a typical surface street in urban areas, they can now compete with surface streets. Much easier to autonomously drive in purpose-built tunnels. Or put a train or a bike trail or moving walkway or whatever.

So they are actually trying to solve the right problem. And using cars is a good idea because cars are really cheap per passenger in terms of upfront capital cost, and they meet the speed, autonomy, safety, and electrification requirements while also allowing use on just regular paved surfaces. If the one-dimensional autonomy works well, they might be able to reduce follow distance at speed enough to exceed a highway lane throughout. And with high occupancy, also a typical light rail train or whatever.

Would be kind of neat to have autonomous driving at 120mph immune to weather and with low enough capital cost that we could afford to crisscross the country with them, without much impact to existing land uses. A clear win if it works. Actually, a clearer win than full autonomous driving on existing roads, as that might quickly clog up surface streets. Plus this is probably technically easier than perfected level 5 autonomy which is still a sort of open ended problem.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by dehrmann on Thursday August 13, 2020 @12:00AM (#24139831)
> they were able to achieve about $10 per mile of tunnel

Do you mean $10m per mile?

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by ashtonkem on Thursday August 13, 2020 @01:58AM (#24140374)
Of course, if they can reduce the cost of digging, they’re also reducing the cost of the hyperloop’s biggest logical competitor; the subway.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by _ph_ on Thursday August 13, 2020 @05:05AM (#24141332)
The Boring company has nothing to do with the Hyperloop concept. The Boring company is about creating cheap tunnels quickly. Current tunneling technology is severely limited by its price. It is really open-ended, which transport system is going to be used inside these tunnels. Hyperloop might be one option, but currently, Elon is not pushing into that direction. Currently, they are using Tesla cars. For higher capacities, special vehicles for those tunnels could be constructed - using the basic Tesla technology, but looking more like normal trains.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by ashtonkem on Thursday August 13, 2020 @10:17AM (#24143554)
“For higher capacities, special vehicles for those tunnels could be constructed”.

Congratulations, you’ve rediscovered the subway.

If Musk wants to make the argument that he’s found a way to drastically reduce subway construction cost, I’m all ears. But he should jump straight to that, rather than this ludicrous idea of zipping personal cars around under the streets; a proposal that doesn’t come anywhere close to the transit density needed for an actual mass transit system.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by _ph_ on Thursday August 13, 2020 @10:55AM (#24143936)
Yes, he claims to have found a way to drastically reduce construction consts. First of all, reducing the tunnel diameter, as the digging speed is constrained by volume. Second, he tries to improve the technology of tunnel boring machines. With the smaller tunnels, there is the requirement for smaller vehicles. You can't run standard trains through these tunnels. For now, he is using Teslas (quite obvious choice) to demonstrate the tunnels, but equally it is obvious, that to increase the capacity of tunnels, you want more bus or train-like vehicles. It is so funny how people critisizing Musk assume, he wouldn't understand so simple connections like seats per vehicle and transit density.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by ashtonkem on Thursday August 13, 2020 @03:24PM (#24147289)
> It is so funny how people critisizing Musk assume, he wouldn't understand so simple connections like seats per vehicle and transit density.

Well, he does keep showing renderings of public transit stations full of Teslas and not, you know, people. It's not really a big leap to say that he doesn't understand when he keeps marketing as if he doesn't understand.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by _ph_ on Thursday August 13, 2020 @05:42PM (#24149756)
Sure he does. And he probably has a reason. But it is absurd to assume he hasn't considered that "trains" allow more people in shorter ties than a single car. So you can speculate why he does as he does, but you are talking about someone sending people to space.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by welterde on Thursday August 13, 2020 @07:31PM (#24151120)
If I am not mistaken the boring co test tunnels are actually slightly larger in diameter than the London tube tunnels (3.8m vs 3.6m), so you could actually run "standard" trains through those.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by ashtonkem on Friday August 14, 2020 @03:37AM (#24154972)
Ah, that is a very interesting detail. A compelling argument to stop with the whole “we’re going to zip around teslas” and just promise to make subways cheaper.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by Robotbeat on Sunday August 16, 2020 @01:06PM (#24179357)
The Boring Company And Musk said they’d be willing to make Subway tunnels, too.

Turns out Teslas are cheaper per passenger seat than a subway car plus have less requirement for specialized infrastructure (rails, etc). So if TBC is gonna be doing the whole project, they intend to use Teslas. It’s not a bad engineering choice. With automation (not hard in a tunnel), can achieve similar throughput as a Subway.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by welterde on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @05:57AM (#24196919)
There is no way you can get even close to the same capacity as a subway.. not even for a point to point setup.

Minimum train space with pretty standard signaling can be as low as 90s. With modern moving block systems that can be pushed even lower. The tube trains have a seating capacity of around 250 people and 800 people can be standing. This gives a capacity of between 3 and 12 people per second.

How are you going to inject 1 car per second (to reach the lower level) into the tunnel in a safe way? And even if you could do it - Consider how huge the stations must be. They have to contain 100+ cars plus space to enter/exit them (couple seconds to come to a stop, 10s of seconds to leave the vehicle - with some people quicker than others -, 10s of seconds for other people to enter the vehicle, couple seconds to accelerate and synchronize to the flow..).

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by Robotbeat on Thursday August 20, 2020 @12:56PM (#24225413)
Cars on freeways already regularly do sub-2 second spacing. If each vehicle had 7-16 people (as TBC plans), you’d get similar to Subway capacity.

Folks who dismiss getting subway-like throughputs haven’t actually done the math.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by welterde on Friday August 21, 2020 @08:50AM (#24234438)
The planned capacity is however only 4400 people per hour for the CES tunnel so about 14s spacing (some other projects even lower). One train every 90s has a capacity of more than 10000 people (and that's not even rush hour with any people standing).

Sub-2 second spacing is quite unlikely to be used, since stopping distance (with 0 reaction time, which is not too unreasonable with LIDAR/RADAR) dictates around 2s spacing between vehicles (1.9s at 100km/h for teslas I believe). And while humans might be fine with ignoring safety aspects computers can't and shouldn't.

Nevermind that building a subway-light vehicles (more similar to a people mover) is not really the same thing as using slightly-modified Teslas as subway replacement (which is what it seems they will be using for now)..

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by aaron695 on Thursday August 13, 2020 @02:05AM (#24140406)
SpaceX and Starlink

You know and own everything about the other process so you can match them far better.

This is what Elon does. Hacks processes, not technology.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by sudosysgen on Thursday August 13, 2020 @12:03PM (#24144809)
So, just the tunnel, with nothing else, at small diameters, is $10m per mile. Whereas it's possible to build high speed rail, including the stations, fully furnished, for 15-20 million dollars per mile. Does not compare favourably, at all.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by bildung on Thursday August 13, 2020 @06:52AM (#24141945)
But right of way extends underground in the US - literally "all the way to hell"? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuius_est_solum,_eius_est_usqu...

How is this something that can be solved with the yet to be invented new TBM?

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by aaron695 on Thursday August 13, 2020 @08:06AM (#24142485)
Watch The Hummingbird Project (2018) it's an interesting little movie.

From your link -

"The "ad infernum" theory positing property ownership "to the center of the Earth" has also been eroded. A review of modern American jurisprudence demonstrates that the theory is more poetic hyperbole than binding law, and that broadly speaking, the deeper the disputed region, the less likely courts are to recognize that the surface owner holds subsurface title. [21] Appraisal studies of subsurface projects such as subways, deep storm drainage tunnels, and particle colliders consistently conclude that such projects, built well below the area that the vast majority of surface property owners ever put to use, do not deprive the surface owners of any value."

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by bildung on Thursday August 13, 2020 @09:57AM (#24143363)
I know, and this affects all players equally. For subways this usually is less of a problem because the actual subways don't need to travel vertically. Cars would need to get up and down, though, which means boring gets more expensive and throughput gets smaller.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by breck on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @06:13PM (#24137657)
Agreed.

> She says the pipes could come up on state-owned land beside motorways or (where they exist) railways.

No time or planning should go into surface hyperloops. These things belong underground. 100x better.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by TylerE on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @06:33PM (#24137854)
Say what? That’s crazy talk. Underground would be many times more expensive, and has much worse failure modes. What happens if the train loses power?
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by chrisco255 on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @06:48PM (#24137993)
It's not crazy talk. The truth is they likely belong both above ground and below ground, depending on urban density or geography. And tunnels tend to have escape ladders every so many feet.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by thephyber on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @09:04PM (#24138971)
Elevated train platforms may have escape ladders, but I thought the Hyperloop tube was depressurized and the car within it needs to be pressurized. This poses a problem for the escaping passengers before they reach the ladder.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by chrisco255 on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @10:31PM (#24139384)
It's only a partial vacuum from what I understand. I'm not sure what kind of difference that makes but presumably it would be easier to depressurize in an emergency.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by erikerikson on Thursday August 13, 2020 @01:51AM (#24140325)
Aren't all real world "vacuums" really only partial vacuums?
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by j88439h84 on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @06:42PM (#24137933)
They'll be stuck in a tunnel. Is that worse than being stuck in the desert?
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by TylerE on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @06:52PM (#24138016)
Yes, if you have no ventilation.

If you're above ground you'd just pop an emergency hatch in the tube.

You can't do that underground.

I'd also point out that a hyperloop tunnel is a much worse place to be stuck in than a normal tunnel.

In a normal tunnel there is room to walk alongside the tracks.

In a hyperloop tunnel there is virtually no room between the car and tunnel - maybe an inch or two, tops.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by jengleton on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @07:20PM (#24138231)
You might not want to pop the emergency hatch when you're surrounded by vacuum.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by TylerE on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @07:21PM (#24138238)
Hatch in the tube, not the car.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by liability on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @08:55PM (#24138915)
Heh, look up "vacuum cannon" on youtube. The tunnel would need to be slowly depressurized, otherwise anything in it would turn into a bullet when the atmosphere rushes in.

This also applies to any sort of failure that compromises the vacuum. A dipshit with a rifle could kill anybody in the system in a fraction of a second. Burying the tubes is probably the only way to avoid this, but thankfully the whole thing is vaporware anyway.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by aeternum on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @11:59PM (#24139826)
You don't need a full vaccum. Even half an atmosphere would greatly reduce air resistance and allow for 4x the velocity in 1 atm.

Humans can survive (uncomfortably) at .5 atm and you eliminate the vacuum cannon problem simply by putting pressurization valves periodically throughout the tube.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by godtoldmetodoit on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @09:00PM (#24138948)
The tube is vacuum, you'd need an airlock not just a simple hatch, no? How do passengers get from car to airlock without a suit?
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by chrisco255 on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @10:27PM (#24139368)
Hyperloop is not a full vacuum, only partial vacuum if I'm not mistaken. I don't know what kind of difference that would make on pressure but I assume that means that the tubes are not air tight and actually breathe.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by ClumsyPilot on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @10:52PM (#24139505)
Hyper-loop requires 99.99% of the air to be removed from the tube, so it is complete vacuum from the lethality / safety and structure / pressure perspective.

I am not sure what do you mean by 'ubes are not air tight and actually breathe', but they definitely are not air permeable.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by TylerE on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @09:13PM (#24139009)
Depressurize the tube first.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by alacombe on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @07:59PM (#24138540)
Didn't Musk's "Boring Company" solve the problem of underground boring cost ?
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by rumanator on Thursday August 13, 2020 @12:19AM (#24139895)
No, Musk's Boring Company is a marketing company that just so happened to have bought COTS tunneling equipment.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by dexterdog on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @08:03PM (#24138569)
If you accept numbers from Elon you might believe this. Otherwise, no.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by breck on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @06:49PM (#24138000)
You're wise to point out historically tunnels were more expensive. And I shouldn't be making claims without a bigger dataset in front of me.

I'm just extrapolating from trends and some cherrypicking. The ongoing elevated rail project in Hawai'i is now running at $500M per mile. Boring Company projects they can get cost of tunneling down to $10M per mile.

What I forecast (without much data, so please correct me if I'm wrong) is that with more money going to tunnels, we will see the costs continue to drop. You don't have the quasi-extortion that goes on now over land rights above ground.

Tunnels also scale better long term—you can just keep adding tunnels.

But beyond cost and scale tunnels are just so much nicer. You can replace ugly, polluting above ground infra with parks and greenery. Even though the Big Dig in Boston took forever and went way over costs, the city is so much nicer now without the Central Artery.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by jcranmer on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @06:57PM (#24138063)
> I'm just extrapolating from trends and some cherrypicking. The ongoing elevated rail project in Hawai'i is now running at $500M per mile. Boring Company projects they can get cost of tunneling down to $10M per mile.

Note that you're (or, rather, Elon Musk is) comparing apples and oranges. Tunnels are actually cheap, about $80m / mile. The expensive parts of metro systems is not the tunnels, but the things that go inside them and stations. This is doubly so for the inexcusably high costs of US transport construction. When people talk about the cost of metro systems, the divide the total cost of the expansion (or entire system if it's a new one) by the length of the system, so they include the amortized costs of new vehicles, infrastructure inside the tunnels, and stations (which often cost more than the tunnel to get to them! Station excavation isn't cheap).

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by TylerE on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @06:59PM (#24138081)
By comparison, China builds above ground high speed rail for about $15M/mile.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by Alupis on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @07:31PM (#24138323)
Without paying US prevailing market wages to the contractors.

Also, all the materials used on the Hawaii rail line have to be shipped in - literally, adding expense.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by ricardobeat on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @08:13PM (#24138636)
You should take a second look at that. Average wages in China are $12k/year, only a third of the US, but higher in the industrial areas, and in terms of purchasing power it has surpassed every other country long ago since everything is so cheap at scale. They have half a billion people in the middle class.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by Alupis on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @08:18PM (#24138667)
When you are directly comparing how much something cost to build, such as a mile of track, in USD, Purchase Power doesn't matter, does it? This is what the Parent post was asserting.

China builds a mile of track at half the price because they literally pay their people half the price (or less). It doesn't matter that their local Purchase Power might be greater.

Taking it a step further, the Parent was comparing a mile of track in China to a mile of track in Hawaii, which literally has to ship all supplies, and likely a lot of labor, across an ocean. So it's not a great comparison even if we remove labor costs.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by sudosysgen on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @09:56PM (#24139209)
Well, if at labour prices at half of the US average China can build high speed trains at a fifth of the price that we can build tunnels, there is more to it than that.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by brianwawok on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @11:34PM (#24139720)
How much does it cost the respective governments for right of way land? Environmental studies?
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by sudosysgen on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @11:57PM (#24139819)
Right of way of land works in largely the same way in China than in the US. If you have the 99 year lease for urban terrain, or ownership of rural terrain, the government pays you the amount it would cost for you to buy similar land in the case of rural expropriation, or a market rate for your lease. You are also compensated for improvements to your land, such a crops or buildings. In the case of land owned by collectives, the collective is paid for land value but not improvements, which are paid to the farmer.

In practice, laws are not always followed to the letter, but the same can be said in the US. You have the right to appeal to higher court, which is effective as unless it is a hugely major project, expropriations are generally made by the municipal or regional government.

As for environmental studies, they are directly paid for by the government. Environmental standards obviously vary, but have been strongly strengthened in the recent push against pollution.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by ricardobeat on Thursday August 13, 2020 @06:52AM (#24141947)
> It doesn't matter that their local Purchase Power might be greater

It matters because it means that the economies are not directly comparable.

You said they can only do that "without paying US prevailing market wages to the contractors." as if that is somehow an unfair advantage. But if their workers don't need US salaries to have a good living standard, because purchasing power is higher, and are not being exploited, where does the problem actually lie?

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by grecy on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @06:13PM (#24137654)
Which is why the first Hyperloop will probably be built outside the USA.

Melbourne to Sydney always seemed like a good choice to me. It's one of the busiest air routes in the world[1], there is obviously tons of solar, lots of open land beside the existing road, no seismic activity to speak of and it's a good long distance to get up to speed (~1000km).

[1] (actually #3 in the world by number of passengers) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_busiest_passenger_air_...

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by sudosysgen on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @09:29PM (#24139095)
The first Hyperloop will probably never be built. It's an absurd technology, for a great many reasons.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by kwhitefoot on Thursday August 13, 2020 @08:11AM (#24142516)
> lots of open land beside the existing road,

Then you can just build a conventional 300kph high speed train and track. They are 'off the shelf' commodities these days.

It will still be competitive with flying.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by grecy on Thursday August 13, 2020 @01:12PM (#24145652)
> It will still be competitive with flying.

Flight time is 1 hr 20 mins.

At 300kph it's going to take a high-speed train almost 3 hours.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by liability on Thursday August 13, 2020 @04:00PM (#24147905)
Factor in time wasted at the airport when you show up early because the TSA is unreliable. I always give myself at least an hour extra and sometimes that's cutting it razor close.

And frankly not being subjected to the TSA is generally worth at least a few hours of my time. I'll sooner drive six hours than fly one because of those worthless assholes.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by grecy on Thursday August 13, 2020 @04:33PM (#24148565)
Australia doesn't have the TSA...
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by cyrrus on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @06:56PM (#24138056)
Seismic activity is apparently not really an issue.

The damage from earthquakes tends to be a ripple of the ground in the first few meters and that’s it.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by cossatot on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @11:34PM (#24139718)
This is false. In the case of the original Hyperloop idea which crosses the San Andreas Fault, a major earthquake on that fault in line with the 1906 earthquake in San Francisco should produce accelerations the ground surface within 10 km of the fault in either direction of around 1 g (i.e., 9.8 m s^-2), corresponding to Modified Mercalli intensities of disruption to people and infrastructure of X ("Extreme: Some well-built wooden structures destroyed; most masonry and frame structures destroyed with foundations. Rails bent")[1] Vertical Accelerations above 1 g will literally throw anything not bolted to the ground into the air. Not much will make it through this unscathed.

This isn't to say that engineering around these sorts of events is impossible. The Transalaksa oil pipeline crosses the Denali fault, and during the M7.9 Denali earthquake in 2002, the pipeline survived because it was built on sliders near the fault so it would bend when the earth shifted instead of breaking [3]. However, this is a big bend in the pipe; the lateral displacements are on the order of 5-10 m in an earthquake of this size, over a similar across-fault distance. Do you want to go at Hyperloop velocities through a tube with a bend this sharp?

[1]: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.833...

[2]: https://www.usgs.gov/media/images/modified-mercalli-intensit...

[3]: https://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/2003/fs014-03/pipeline.html

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by rossjudson on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @11:25PM (#24139675)
There's a second reason. The hyperloop tubes can slide back and forth on the pylons. If you shake the ground underneath them, the pylons can move around but the tube (tube system) stays still (like moving your hand underneath a baseball -- the ball stays still, rolling).
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by keenmaster on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @10:21PM (#24139328)
>The problems with building this have nothing to do with technology but with right-of-way, investment, and politics. If those factors were solved, we'd already have high-speed rail in places where Hyperloop has been proposed. The fact that we don't says that Hyperloop is unlikely to be feasible as well.

I disagree with your conclusion. Hyperloop technology is so lucrative that it might galvanize America to update its long distance transportation infrastructure in a way that bullet trains couldn't have.

Bullet trains:

- Popularized when a huge network of new highways and slow rail were already built in America

- Faced a suburban, car-loving culture

Hyperloop:

- 2-3x speed of bullet trains. Can change the way we perceive geographic distance.

- Popularized during an increasingly urban culture with crumbling highway and train infrastructure

- Cost isn't as much of a concern because a national hyperloop network would create a lot more value than a bullet train equivalent. If the government doesn't want to shoulder the full cost, companies gladly will (when the tech is ripe). I'm hoping for full government funding.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by ClumsyPilot on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @10:35PM (#24139404)
> "Cost isn't as much of a concern because a national hyperloop network would create a lot more value than a bullet train equivalent."

What is the basis for such claim? Most of the information I come across points in the opposite direction.

Trains are a lot cheaper infrastructure wise, and have ~10x higher capacity. Many public transport infrastructure professionals consider hyperloop a joke because it can only move a fairly small amount of people. In UK we are running out of capacity on many rail lines.

So why do you believe hyperloop would generate more revenue or indirect economic benefits compared to a modern high-speed rail?

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by ashtonkem on Thursday August 13, 2020 @02:00AM (#24140380)
Especially since HSR isn’t experimental anymore, it’s approaching a century old. America could just buy the exact same parts either France or Japan uses.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by jcranmer on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @11:50PM (#24139785)
> - 2-3x speed of bullet trains. Can change the way we perceive geographic distance.

> - Cost isn't as much of a concern because a national hyperloop network would create a lot more value than a bullet train equivalent.

High speed brings with it some pretty severe problems. The most well-known is curve geometry: curve radii scale with the square of velocity. Transition track (how long the "S" of a S bend needs to be) scales with the cube. But it's not the only issue. Also scaling quadratically with speed is energy consumption and stopping distance. Speed only gives you a linear improvement in time, so things like capacity decreases [1] and stop penalties are only linear.

But the difficulty you face is switches. Here, you have curve radii constraints, which means your problems are in the quadratic issue. I've never seen any depiction of a hyperloop switch [2], but I imagine it's going to be more in the vein of move the entire tube than just swap a point. In any case, a high-speed switch capable of being traversed at 200 km/h is... 164m long. To go 1000 km/h would require it to be 4.1km. That means it will take a vehicle at least 14.76s to traverse it. So you can't schedule vehicles any tighter than that, but for safety reasons, you want the following vehicle to be able to come to a complete stop in case the switch breaks down before it can complete moving--which is going to slow you down to minutes between vehicles [3].

With these constraints, you might think people would be trying to design high-capacity vehicles, competing with the ~1000 you can stick on a normal trainset. But the design is more akin to a small airplane with the wings and tail cut off, fitting maybe a few dozen people per pod. Actually, the more you look at the designs, the more you see airport-style operational motifs sinking in. It starts to look a lot more like a long chain of point-to-point links, with the capacity issue of airplanes, but the infrastructural cost of railroads. Even the modelling seems to basically assume that people will treat hyperloops as airplanes.

[1] Yes, making a train network higher speed decreases its total throughput.

[2] A telling sign in itself.

[3] The highest capacity metro systems today can manage to schedule 45 trains per hour, and most systems are typically about 25 trains per hour. I believe the highest capacity HSR line is 6 trains per hour.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by alexisread on Thursday August 13, 2020 @10:22AM (#24143593)
The best transport option might be smartrail (similar to http://openprtspecs.blogspot.com/2011/11/climbing-chain.html but steel wheel/LIM and faster).

Smartrail and PRT are designed as a point to point separated-grade network carrying on av. 1 person or a pallette of goods. With a hanging rail you don't need heavy batteries, parking for the vehicles, you can run a pod straight into the factory to pickup goods, and large/rich places can pay to have track straight to their door.

You can prefab the rail and as land usage is just poles in the ground it can be rolled out over fields etc quickly. Track is one-way to eliminate junctions. Pods are on-demand ie. No waiting.

Accessibility improves, you can use the top of the rail to generate (solar) power, run highspeed internet cables in the rail to improve comms across a country, and save on distribution center logistics as you're going point to point.

The last mile may possibly be an issue, but forklift drones and bicycles can take most of the load I feel.

Drivers for this are that it would go fast (200mph+ as light pods so little wear), can go overnight (sleeper pods), you could buy track to your door, personal transport (like a cinema room if you want). The main real issue with cars is that there's a large lobby behind what is a legacy transport solution...

By way of example, UltraPRT has been running flawlessly at Heathrow airport for 10 years, was built on time, on budget, and performs exactly as predicted/modelled.

For more info checkout http://faculty.washington.edu/jbs/itrans/ in particular Swedetrack (https://web.archive.org/web/20060202013014/http://www.swedet...)

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by keenmaster on Thursday August 13, 2020 @12:49AM (#24140029)
Couldn't the capacity issue be somewhat mitigated by stacking tubes vertically and/or increasing the tube diameter?

As for the curvature issue, there seem to be a couple ways around that. One is to straighten the route to the maximum extent possible (not trivial but not impossible for some routes). The other is to build massive curves and decelerate into them. Again, there are tradeoffs (cost,speed) but it's not impossible. There are just so many variables. A hyperloop could end up being great for some areas and unworkable in others.

Lastly, right of way/land clearance should never be a key constraint. That won't stop us if we really want to build a hyperloop.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by dmitriid on Thursday August 13, 2020 @02:55AM (#24140665)
> Couldn't the capacity issue be somewhat mitigated by stacking tubes vertically

Significantly increased costs

> and/or increasing the tube diameter?

Immeasurably increased costs. Because hyperloop already operates on the idea of operating in vacuum. So let's say you have a 10-kilometer tube that you need to keep in vacuum and you want to increase its diameter...

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by CaptainZapp on Thursday August 13, 2020 @02:53AM (#24140652)
6 Trains per hour seems extremely low.

For example: There are 7 Shinkansen between Tokyo and Osaka tomorrow between 9am and 9:30am. That would mean 13 - 14 trains per hour.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by jojobas on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @10:52PM (#24139503)
High speed rail infringe mostly on planes' territory, not cars'.

At 3x of bullet trains speed a curve radius of 2500m resolves to 2g lateral acceleration.

For all purposes Hyperloop is very much like Theranos.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by ponker on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @06:15PM (#24137670)
Not really, there’s a fourth factor not listed here, which is government vs. private. A government project will, for political reasons, need to support universal access, and a public transit system will have a hard time telling a person “you smell too bad to get on the bus.” A private company won’t have any such problems and can build only for the rich and middle class. The problem that Hyperloop solves is creating 1/20th the throughput at 1/20th the cost, which brings the project feasibility into the private sector domain and allows a product to be sold to the richest and/or cheapest-to-serve 1/20th of the market.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by shajznnckfke on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @06:22PM (#24137730)
Why is hyperloop 1/20th the cost? It seems like the expensive parts of high-speed rail (acquiring the land and moving earth to make a long straight path) would also apply.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by dragonwriter on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @10:11PM (#24139287)
> Why is hyperloop 1/20th the cost? It

In the case of Musk's original proposal posed against HSR, largely because it had far fewer stations and because it had termini nowhere near the notional urban endpoint destinations, because getting close to them required high-priced right of way.

It basically was a way to get from the distant (in transit time from SF) fringes of the Bay Area to the, IIRC, even more distant (in transit time from LA) fringes of the LA Basin.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by ponker on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @06:44PM (#24137956)
Not if it’s underground. You can get the right of way much cheaper depending on what’s on top.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by shajznnckfke on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @06:53PM (#24138022)
Ok, so how is this cheaper than high-speed rail in a tunnel?

It seems to me that hyperloop is high speed rail with the addition of a vacuum, which gets you higher speed. The additional requirement of a giant vacuum tube should make the system cost more, not less.

Personally, I’m rooting for Elon Musk to figure out how to make tunnels cheaply with the Boring Company, so we can take that tech and use it to build a bunch of subways. Traffic within urban areas and suburbs is a much bigger societal issue than intercity travel anyway. Subways are a proven solution, but somehow we lost the ability to dig tunnels economically so we stopped building them.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by ant6n on Thursday August 13, 2020 @12:57AM (#24140073)
Tunnel boring is actually not that expensive, for some projects the raw tunnelling isn’t a big portion of the overall cost. I think for crossrail in London (which includes a fair amount of tunneling ), the tunneling is 10-20% of the total Prüfer cost.

A large amount of cost is in the stations.

In the us, a large amount of cost is inefficiency, projects cost much more than elsewhere, even considering purchasing power parities. Alon levy has written and talked about it extensively, e.g. https://pedestrianobservations.com/2019/03/03/why-american-c...

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by ponker on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @07:13PM (#24138177)
It uses a much smaller tunnel.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by bildung on Thursday August 13, 2020 @06:57AM (#24141974)
Which means the throughput per tunnel is more expensive, right? A tunnel with a half diameter will have a quarter the throughput (i.e. the ratio of circle diameter to area). Which is why TBM tech develops towards bigger machines, not smaller ones.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by shajznnckfke on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @08:11PM (#24138617)
Why does a hyperloop fit in a smaller tunnel than a train? Doesn’t it need to do everything a train does, plus it’s wrapped in a vacuum tube?
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by jcranmer on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @08:43PM (#24138826)
As far as I understand, the original proposal relies on a) no safety egress walkways in the tunnel and b) a more cramped vehicle profile.

I don't know how as-actually-built hyperloop compares to rail tunnels.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by notahacker on Thursday August 13, 2020 @05:14AM (#24141378)
But that's offset by it managing much lower peak passenger throughput, so you need more tunnels...
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by ponker on Thursday August 13, 2020 @02:54PM (#24146871)
You don't need more tunnels -- you just limit your passengers to your most profitable, and make a luxury transit system rather than a mass transit system.

This is what Tesla did by starting with the Tesla Roadster then Model S then Model 3... and it's what the Hyperloop aims to do. Launch as a small throughput luxury product and if it's profitable then it doesn't matter if it ever expands beyond that or not.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by fragmede on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @07:47PM (#24138455)
Two of the largest sources of air pollution in the world are cars and airplanes, and Elon Musk has already been working on attacking the issue of car pollution. Imo extrapolating out from the combination of SpaceX and Starlink, subways are an obvious project for the Boring Company, especially once you have higher-speed boring machines. (Current boring machines move at about 10 meters/day.)
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by liability on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @09:39PM (#24139147)
I don't get it. Subways run off electrical power since the late 19th century. If your grid power is carbon neutral, so are those subway trains.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by TylerE on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @07:26PM (#24138281)
If that were true, conventional rail would be built mostly in tunnels.

It is very much not.

Tunnels are used only when absolutely necessary to deal with terrain.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by heavenlyblue on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @06:18PM (#24137688)
Is that the plan by Elon Musk or your postfactual justification because you love the idea of it?