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Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by breck on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @06:49PM (#24138000)
You're wise to point out historically tunnels were more expensive. And I shouldn't be making claims without a bigger dataset in front of me.

I'm just extrapolating from trends and some cherrypicking. The ongoing elevated rail project in Hawai'i is now running at $500M per mile. Boring Company projects they can get cost of tunneling down to $10M per mile.

What I forecast (without much data, so please correct me if I'm wrong) is that with more money going to tunnels, we will see the costs continue to drop. You don't have the quasi-extortion that goes on now over land rights above ground.

Tunnels also scale better long term—you can just keep adding tunnels.

But beyond cost and scale tunnels are just so much nicer. You can replace ugly, polluting above ground infra with parks and greenery. Even though the Big Dig in Boston took forever and went way over costs, the city is so much nicer now without the Central Artery.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by jcranmer on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @06:57PM (#24138063)
> I'm just extrapolating from trends and some cherrypicking. The ongoing elevated rail project in Hawai'i is now running at $500M per mile. Boring Company projects they can get cost of tunneling down to $10M per mile.

Note that you're (or, rather, Elon Musk is) comparing apples and oranges. Tunnels are actually cheap, about $80m / mile. The expensive parts of metro systems is not the tunnels, but the things that go inside them and stations. This is doubly so for the inexcusably high costs of US transport construction. When people talk about the cost of metro systems, the divide the total cost of the expansion (or entire system if it's a new one) by the length of the system, so they include the amortized costs of new vehicles, infrastructure inside the tunnels, and stations (which often cost more than the tunnel to get to them! Station excavation isn't cheap).

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by TylerE on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @06:59PM (#24138081)
By comparison, China builds above ground high speed rail for about $15M/mile.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by Alupis on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @07:31PM (#24138323)
Without paying US prevailing market wages to the contractors.

Also, all the materials used on the Hawaii rail line have to be shipped in - literally, adding expense.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by ricardobeat on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @08:13PM (#24138636)
You should take a second look at that. Average wages in China are $12k/year, only a third of the US, but higher in the industrial areas, and in terms of purchasing power it has surpassed every other country long ago since everything is so cheap at scale. They have half a billion people in the middle class.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by Alupis on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @08:18PM (#24138667)
When you are directly comparing how much something cost to build, such as a mile of track, in USD, Purchase Power doesn't matter, does it? This is what the Parent post was asserting.

China builds a mile of track at half the price because they literally pay their people half the price (or less). It doesn't matter that their local Purchase Power might be greater.

Taking it a step further, the Parent was comparing a mile of track in China to a mile of track in Hawaii, which literally has to ship all supplies, and likely a lot of labor, across an ocean. So it's not a great comparison even if we remove labor costs.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by sudosysgen on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @09:56PM (#24139209)
Well, if at labour prices at half of the US average China can build high speed trains at a fifth of the price that we can build tunnels, there is more to it than that.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by brianwawok on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @11:34PM (#24139720)
How much does it cost the respective governments for right of way land? Environmental studies?
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by sudosysgen on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @11:57PM (#24139819)
Right of way of land works in largely the same way in China than in the US. If you have the 99 year lease for urban terrain, or ownership of rural terrain, the government pays you the amount it would cost for you to buy similar land in the case of rural expropriation, or a market rate for your lease. You are also compensated for improvements to your land, such a crops or buildings. In the case of land owned by collectives, the collective is paid for land value but not improvements, which are paid to the farmer.

In practice, laws are not always followed to the letter, but the same can be said in the US. You have the right to appeal to higher court, which is effective as unless it is a hugely major project, expropriations are generally made by the municipal or regional government.

As for environmental studies, they are directly paid for by the government. Environmental standards obviously vary, but have been strongly strengthened in the recent push against pollution.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by ricardobeat on Thursday August 13, 2020 @06:52AM (#24141947)
> It doesn't matter that their local Purchase Power might be greater

It matters because it means that the economies are not directly comparable.

You said they can only do that "without paying US prevailing market wages to the contractors." as if that is somehow an unfair advantage. But if their workers don't need US salaries to have a good living standard, because purchasing power is higher, and are not being exploited, where does the problem actually lie?