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Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by TylerE on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @06:33PM (#24137854)
Say what? That’s crazy talk. Underground would be many times more expensive, and has much worse failure modes. What happens if the train loses power?
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by chrisco255 on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @06:48PM (#24137993)
It's not crazy talk. The truth is they likely belong both above ground and below ground, depending on urban density or geography. And tunnels tend to have escape ladders every so many feet.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by thephyber on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @09:04PM (#24138971)
Elevated train platforms may have escape ladders, but I thought the Hyperloop tube was depressurized and the car within it needs to be pressurized. This poses a problem for the escaping passengers before they reach the ladder.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by chrisco255 on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @10:31PM (#24139384)
It's only a partial vacuum from what I understand. I'm not sure what kind of difference that makes but presumably it would be easier to depressurize in an emergency.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by erikerikson on Thursday August 13, 2020 @01:51AM (#24140325)
Aren't all real world "vacuums" really only partial vacuums?
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by j88439h84 on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @06:42PM (#24137933)
They'll be stuck in a tunnel. Is that worse than being stuck in the desert?
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by TylerE on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @06:52PM (#24138016)
Yes, if you have no ventilation.

If you're above ground you'd just pop an emergency hatch in the tube.

You can't do that underground.

I'd also point out that a hyperloop tunnel is a much worse place to be stuck in than a normal tunnel.

In a normal tunnel there is room to walk alongside the tracks.

In a hyperloop tunnel there is virtually no room between the car and tunnel - maybe an inch or two, tops.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by jengleton on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @07:20PM (#24138231)
You might not want to pop the emergency hatch when you're surrounded by vacuum.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by TylerE on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @07:21PM (#24138238)
Hatch in the tube, not the car.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by liability on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @08:55PM (#24138915)
Heh, look up "vacuum cannon" on youtube. The tunnel would need to be slowly depressurized, otherwise anything in it would turn into a bullet when the atmosphere rushes in.

This also applies to any sort of failure that compromises the vacuum. A dipshit with a rifle could kill anybody in the system in a fraction of a second. Burying the tubes is probably the only way to avoid this, but thankfully the whole thing is vaporware anyway.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by aeternum on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @11:59PM (#24139826)
You don't need a full vaccum. Even half an atmosphere would greatly reduce air resistance and allow for 4x the velocity in 1 atm.

Humans can survive (uncomfortably) at .5 atm and you eliminate the vacuum cannon problem simply by putting pressurization valves periodically throughout the tube.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by godtoldmetodoit on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @09:00PM (#24138948)
The tube is vacuum, you'd need an airlock not just a simple hatch, no? How do passengers get from car to airlock without a suit?
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by chrisco255 on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @10:27PM (#24139368)
Hyperloop is not a full vacuum, only partial vacuum if I'm not mistaken. I don't know what kind of difference that would make on pressure but I assume that means that the tubes are not air tight and actually breathe.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by ClumsyPilot on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @10:52PM (#24139505)
Hyper-loop requires 99.99% of the air to be removed from the tube, so it is complete vacuum from the lethality / safety and structure / pressure perspective.

I am not sure what do you mean by 'ubes are not air tight and actually breathe', but they definitely are not air permeable.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by TylerE on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @09:13PM (#24139009)
Depressurize the tube first.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by alacombe on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @07:59PM (#24138540)
Didn't Musk's "Boring Company" solve the problem of underground boring cost ?
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by rumanator on Thursday August 13, 2020 @12:19AM (#24139895)
No, Musk's Boring Company is a marketing company that just so happened to have bought COTS tunneling equipment.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by dexterdog on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @08:03PM (#24138569)
If you accept numbers from Elon you might believe this. Otherwise, no.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by breck on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @06:49PM (#24138000)
You're wise to point out historically tunnels were more expensive. And I shouldn't be making claims without a bigger dataset in front of me.

I'm just extrapolating from trends and some cherrypicking. The ongoing elevated rail project in Hawai'i is now running at $500M per mile. Boring Company projects they can get cost of tunneling down to $10M per mile.

What I forecast (without much data, so please correct me if I'm wrong) is that with more money going to tunnels, we will see the costs continue to drop. You don't have the quasi-extortion that goes on now over land rights above ground.

Tunnels also scale better long term—you can just keep adding tunnels.

But beyond cost and scale tunnels are just so much nicer. You can replace ugly, polluting above ground infra with parks and greenery. Even though the Big Dig in Boston took forever and went way over costs, the city is so much nicer now without the Central Artery.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by jcranmer on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @06:57PM (#24138063)
> I'm just extrapolating from trends and some cherrypicking. The ongoing elevated rail project in Hawai'i is now running at $500M per mile. Boring Company projects they can get cost of tunneling down to $10M per mile.

Note that you're (or, rather, Elon Musk is) comparing apples and oranges. Tunnels are actually cheap, about $80m / mile. The expensive parts of metro systems is not the tunnels, but the things that go inside them and stations. This is doubly so for the inexcusably high costs of US transport construction. When people talk about the cost of metro systems, the divide the total cost of the expansion (or entire system if it's a new one) by the length of the system, so they include the amortized costs of new vehicles, infrastructure inside the tunnels, and stations (which often cost more than the tunnel to get to them! Station excavation isn't cheap).

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by TylerE on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @06:59PM (#24138081)
By comparison, China builds above ground high speed rail for about $15M/mile.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by Alupis on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @07:31PM (#24138323)
Without paying US prevailing market wages to the contractors.

Also, all the materials used on the Hawaii rail line have to be shipped in - literally, adding expense.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by ricardobeat on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @08:13PM (#24138636)
You should take a second look at that. Average wages in China are $12k/year, only a third of the US, but higher in the industrial areas, and in terms of purchasing power it has surpassed every other country long ago since everything is so cheap at scale. They have half a billion people in the middle class.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by Alupis on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @08:18PM (#24138667)
When you are directly comparing how much something cost to build, such as a mile of track, in USD, Purchase Power doesn't matter, does it? This is what the Parent post was asserting.

China builds a mile of track at half the price because they literally pay their people half the price (or less). It doesn't matter that their local Purchase Power might be greater.

Taking it a step further, the Parent was comparing a mile of track in China to a mile of track in Hawaii, which literally has to ship all supplies, and likely a lot of labor, across an ocean. So it's not a great comparison even if we remove labor costs.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by sudosysgen on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @09:56PM (#24139209)
Well, if at labour prices at half of the US average China can build high speed trains at a fifth of the price that we can build tunnels, there is more to it than that.
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by brianwawok on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @11:34PM (#24139720)
How much does it cost the respective governments for right of way land? Environmental studies?
Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by sudosysgen on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @11:57PM (#24139819)
Right of way of land works in largely the same way in China than in the US. If you have the 99 year lease for urban terrain, or ownership of rural terrain, the government pays you the amount it would cost for you to buy similar land in the case of rural expropriation, or a market rate for your lease. You are also compensated for improvements to your land, such a crops or buildings. In the case of land owned by collectives, the collective is paid for land value but not improvements, which are paid to the farmer.

In practice, laws are not always followed to the letter, but the same can be said in the US. You have the right to appeal to higher court, which is effective as unless it is a hugely major project, expropriations are generally made by the municipal or regional government.

As for environmental studies, they are directly paid for by the government. Environmental standards obviously vary, but have been strongly strengthened in the recent push against pollution.

Re:Hyperloop: Pipes of Fancy by ricardobeat on Thursday August 13, 2020 @06:52AM (#24141947)
> It doesn't matter that their local Purchase Power might be greater

It matters because it means that the economies are not directly comparable.

You said they can only do that "without paying US prevailing market wages to the contractors." as if that is somehow an unfair advantage. But if their workers don't need US salaries to have a good living standard, because purchasing power is higher, and are not being exploited, where does the problem actually lie?