What are the tradeoffs for a user replaceable battery? (really, this is something we should all know if we are arguing FOR replaceable batteries - maybe it's not the best idea?
I would wager 99%+ of sales go to people who never want to touch the innards of a phone.
And anecdotally, my SO's father got a cheap battery for his iphone and it ballooned up and almost destroyed his phone.
He also asked me if he should get a 3rd party power adaptor for his macbook (I said no, he ignored me because his wife is cheap), and it was this cheap POS that actually ended up forcing him to doa $600 repair AND get an apple power supply.
I spent years working on consumer PCs - normal people dont have time or inclination to deal with all this crap, just like they don't want to learn to repair their own air conditioner.
Consumers who want/need easily replaceable batteries already don't choose an iPhone, so all this in mind, I suspect the numbers don't add up for this argument.
When something on my car breaks, I take it to a person that has no direct affiliation with the company that built my car, and it is always cheaper than taking it to the local repair shop that the manufacturer runs. Always.
I can also replace the parts in it with parts manufactured by yet another third party. Again, the parts of equivalent quality are nearly always cheaper than the original manufacturer's replacement parts. You can also spend more on premium aftermarket parts, if you like.
I don't even want to change the oil in my car. But I can pay someone who wants to service and repair cars all day, as their job, to do it for me, rather than sending the car back to the factory to have its engine replaced every time the oil gets dirty.
If I like tinkering with electronics, I could swap my own iPhone battery, and then I could also do that for other people. The problem is that Apple, Samsung, et al do not wish to share the repairs market, or allow repairs to eat into new sales, and therefore do not sell repair parts at reasonable prices or release part specifications so that third parties may produce repair parts of equivalent quality.
So the only way to get cheaper than an official first-party repair is to get crappy grey-market parts. Proprietary and patented connectors that don't get licensed on reasonable terms make things worse. This stuff doesn't need to be repaired by everyone, but it needs to be repairable by someone that isn't beholden to the original manufacturer. Repairability is the consumer check on planned obsolescence.
Apple is notoriously draconian about ensuring that 3rd parties are blocked from accessing schematics and repair manuals. I'm talking, they threaten lawsuits to anyone publishing schematics, and there is no legal way to obtain those schematics unless you're an Apple authorized repairer - in which case you'll never need them because your job is just to replace entire logic boards after minimal diagnostics. This creates enormous waste and costs a lot more than an actual repair would. In some cases they don't even do that and just tell the user tough shit, get a new device.
Clearly you have not been to Asia. Plenty of 3rd party iPhone repair shops. Very easy to get batteries and cracked screens replaced.
I think people have been successfully conditioned to view phones as disposable/replaceable. It would take an almost Sisyphean marketing and conditioning effort to change that thinking.
I'm not sure it's possible. But, hey, I suppose Apple's free to try. No harm there I suppose.
Outside many European Apple stores they even often pay someone to stand and hold a sign advertising cheaper iPhone repairs available around the corner etc.
Anecdotally, a large number of my friends and family have all used these, usually for cracked screens or batteries, and often in preference to an Apple store on the (sometimes incorrect) assumption it will be cheaper than “taking it to Apple” to get fixed.
The reason they're everwhere is that people do take their phones in for repair. Mostly battery replacement and cracked screens. The town I live in manages to support three repair shops that I know of.
The first thing you do when you take them out of the box is to put the battery in.
Even if the person at the store does this for you, just by watching you can easly do it yourself.
And since iphones are a huge role model, if they implement it others will follow along.
Shocking, I know...
If Apple wants to make resilient devices they'd start by using materials not as fragile as glass or thin aluminium. Say, differentially hardened steel (incl. plated) or advanced composites. Just like watches.
Then, the only problem is extra space for the battery connector. They could even sell users a prismatic pouch with no plastic shell as the battery.
The actual tricky part is that integrated battery allows better cooling by use of messy thermal compound. You could have a foam thermal pad instead below the battery cover.
We used to be able to buy Fisher-Price toys that were tough enough to bear the weight of a car, or withstand multiple generations of abuse by children. I've got plastic toolboxes inherited from my grandfather that still hold up.
Take a look at the ratings and user photos for plastic vehicle ramps on Amazon and consider whether you think you could even get the jack stands in before the ramps collapse. Kids' toys are flimsier than ever, yet despite the "cheaper" construction they're also more expensive than ever. I bought my kids the Barbie Dreamhouse (a $100+ marvel of plastic and cardboard) that collapsed under its own weight. The original Nintendo equipment was light-years more rugged than the endless RMA experience that is the Switch.
We have the technology to make plastics that don't feel "cheap" and the products reusable, but for whatever reasons we've clearly steered away from these goals.
But here’s another tradeoff: if one is producing phones for the great portion of the market which needs or wants disposable devices, then one doesn’t get to claim that one is designing durable devices.
I passed on my old 4 that is still being used as a Netflix/ web browser.
This is contrary to competitor phones that have hardware issues as well as ability to keep getting software updates.
Nexus 5x released sep 2015 and selling used for $85 with original retail [0] compared to 6s released at the same dome that is now selling used for $165 despite an original price of $650 and worse specs [1].
Certainly some of this price difference is due to Apple as a luxury product. But it may also be due to new OS releases not being supported on the 5X, but are on the 6S.
[0] https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B0178GEA04/ref=mw_dp... [1] https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B015E8TYHW/ref=mw_dp...
Certainly some old phones will work. And likely even still work as a phone. My point was that iPhones are more likely to still run and be useful based on their market price. The Nexus 5X price isn’t zero, someone still uses them. But it’s lower.
It’s cool your Nokia works as a podcast player. Does it work as a phone? I loved my old Nokia, but never found them effective enough as a smart phone. But my feature phone from 2004 still boots up and I can play the snake game I bought.
I did it in about 45 minutes the first time, and could do another in 20-30 minutes pretty easily.
It's now a 5-year old phone. 10 minutes labor per year is OK in my book.
How easy is it for end-users to replace the clutch in that off-warranty Civic? For that matter, how many people even change their own brakes (one of the easiest DIY tasks, IMO)?
When I did mine recently, I dropped the entire K-frame, box and engine on to the floor in around 45-60minutes, had the head off in another 10 minutes, surfaced both the flywheel and head's mating surfaces within the next 30 minutes (hey-ho flappy disk on the grinder! It's just an EG Civic with a d15b) and had the whole car assembled in an hour. The fact that I have access to a two post hoist cut my time down.
Now compared with the fact that I have destroyed two phones attempting to separate the adhesive rubbish that holds everything together inside them, I actually think changing the clutch on an EG is probably easier for the "average" user than changing a modern phone battery. A decent set of ratcheting spanners, a torque wrench and a Haynes manual is all you need, and you're not going to accidentally break anything.
It should also be noted that almost all cars "back in the day" (i.e. the 30's, 40's, etc) noted in their own user manuals how to check ring gaps etc with the expectations that owners would rebuild their own cars. How far we've come.
This is something that can become routine for practiced folks, or for people that are motivated to try the challenge, but there's a lot of opportunity for mishaps. In fact one way that many people get new phones is when Genius Bars screw-up the battery replacement-- so even pro's can't get it right 100% of the time.
If an end-user doesn't want to do their 5/5S/SE on their own, there are kiosks in nearly every mall that will do it for you in an hour or so.
Does it work with recent water-proof phones? I thought that there's some kind of glue to protect from water.
Still not a huge amount of money given the cost of the phone.
Air tools, acetone/ATF mix, and a propane torch are your friend at times.
Most poor people, middle class (what's left).
Although rental agreements, and section 8 leases prohibit working on any vechicle on said properties.
The average person should know how to repace at least the front disc brake pads. (Jack, torx, or 12-13 mm socket, c-champ to push fluid back into reservoir, and pads. 2 hour job.)
Yes, a manual clutch is another story, but if you have access to a garage, or lot, it's a weekend job.
Still it's two jacks, socket set, 3/8 torq wrench (most shops don't bother torque), flashlight, jack stands, clutch pack set, with includes plastic clutch alignment tool. It's a long weekend job. It goes quicker if you have a friend who's done one before, or a strong young person who's been under a vechicle at least a few times.
So yes, there are so many of us who just don't have the funds to hire people to do things.
I am one of those people. Hell, I still cut my hair with a vacuume cleaner?
Poor people are in a bind when trying to fix their jalopy because rental housing is so restrictive. (In other parts of the country, I imagine it's not so bad, but in the Bay Area landlords usually have 42 pages of cant's.)
My point is so many Americans just don't have the luxury of having someone else do the work anymore.
In my world, the repairability of a product is of utmost importance.
Then again, I am stumped over anyone spending $1000 for a dumb phone. Giving money to a company who builds their products overseas, and can't figure out what to do with their profits.
I do give them props for security though. I guess if I was important enough, iron clad security would be worth a lot more than a grand?
I will use my three Apple products until they die.
I will then rely on the surplus of perfecly good products discarded by the wealthy, or people whom think things will will always be ok.
Sorry about the rant. There's so many products that are unfeasible, or impossible to fix. It's like the government forgot The Sherman Anti-trust Act? I feel weird about bringing up the Act? Why? Because we are talking about a phone. A dumb phone? It's not so dumb when you can't get schematics on on the electronics in your boiler, or can't get repair codes off your vechicle.
How do you cut your hair with a vacuum cleaner?
You comparing apples and oranges. There is a difference between a task that genuinely requires labor (replacing brakes), and something that is artificially harder solely to discourage people from doing it, but could (and ought) to be a simple task that can be done 15 seconds.
Honda isn't intentionally making it more complex to get to your brake pads and rotors.
When my iPhone's leak, I'm out potentially $1500.
Of course, if you let your kid reassemble either your power train or your $1500 iPhone without supervision, the results will be exactly as you describe, but also entirely your own damn fault.
For that reason, I maintain precisely zero of them myself.
Apple devices (both laptops and phones) have a dramatically higher resale value than others, so that bit of your argument baffles me.
The reason why apple offers those services is because it has competition. If they figure out how to make third party repair intractable, you can expect a full reversion to the "screw you, buy a new device" state of affairs.
(Obviously telling the user that water proofing is compromised and that they need to retry attaching whatever they tried to attach or replace it.)
This is understandably a very popular assumption amongst people who like to tinker but it's oversimplified. "Repairability" is only a positive in the absence of any other factors. Devices that are harder to repair can also increase the active matter to dead matter ratio which reduces a whole host of energy and material requirements and be sealed better which increases environmental tolerance. That's ignoring any other user benefits like practical security.
More generally I think it's really, REALLY important to be careful to separate goals vs tools, because humans have a real history of putting the cart before the horse and starting to treat successful tools as values in and of themselves which inevitably leads to misapplication. For most of the population, including amongst the technical set, "repairability" is a tool, not a goal. The goal is something along the lines of "any item I get should last for a reasonable time as a function of its price, including having a good 2-5 year period during which any failures should be Dealt With (meaning a restoration of functionality at reasonable speed) for free (significantly abnormal shipping aside), and for expensive items a longer period after where any issues can be Dealt With for reasonable expense."
Repairability is one possible tool to use are part of a mix to meet that goal. But so is more money put into materials and engineering, better quality control, manufacturer insurance, manufacturer direct or partner support networks, etc. Each has tradeoffs, like any tool, and the right mixture will vary based on people's priorities and budgets. Repairability is not simply a positive.
This is also part of what I hate in all the awful "Right to Repair" legislation attempts, the ones I've read have universally pushed a method rather then a goal which almost always makes for terrible law. Markets are our best tool for figuring out and then dynamically adapting to meeting goals, but of course do not have goals themselves. What legislation should do is mandate the goal and make sure costs are internalized then leave it to everyone else to figure out the best ways to make it happen for different parts of the population.
I'd be happy to see some kind of legislation put easy access to spare parts as a priority.
Be careful and precise please. What to you mean by "easy" here in the context of the general public? I think what most people mean by "easy" is "I drop it off/send it away, and I get back something working within a day to a week depending on the product and faster is better, and it costs me nothing for [reasonable amount, minimum 2 years then 1 year per $300 up to 5 years] and then is reasonable for the remaining expected product lifespan" and how that happens matter not one whit. Case in point:
>Batteries are a wear item for example, and should be easy to swap out with spares available freely.
I strongly disagree with you on multiple levels here. I want my mobile device optimized for the general use case, which is when I have it on me by itself and it is working. That means the highest active matter ratio possible while also being as passively environmentally resistant as possible and it being functional for a few years at a time. Exceptional scenarios can be handled with cases. It's always possible to add extra matter for protection or battery, but obviously the base phone defines the minimums. Beyond that I'm perfectly happy to bring it to a service center for an hour dealing with the battery every 2-3 years. "Easy to swap out" is a negative here because it lowers the active matter ratio and effectiveness of the device in the most common scenario in favor of a niche concern [1]. And while I expect batteries to last for their rated lifespan and that to be what most would expect under normal usage (couple of years), I do not expect them to be "available freely" beyond that, they're a complex and critical core component that can expected to be a not-insignificant percentage of device BOM.
>Screens and glass backs are prone to cracking and shattering
No they aren't. They're very resistant to cracking and shattering, but a small percentage of people are prone to dropping them or need to use them in extreme environments. Those people should take advantage of the wide variety of 3rd party products optimized specifically for their individualized use case.
>I'd be happy to see some kind of legislation put easy access to spare parts as a priority.
I have strongly (to the extent I am able) fought such legislation, I think it's awful and wrong headed. What I would very much support is legislation along the lines I've discussed, requiring manufacturers to Deal With non-functional devices of customers for a good 2-5 years are no extra cost beyond perhaps extreme shipping, and requiring them to then 'ensure service is available' at cost of time&parts for some period afterwards. I expect different companies targeting different use cases and different segments of the population would adopt different methods to meet this. Some of them would definitely focus heavily on ease of repairability, particularly at the low end. Others would lean more heavily on engineering/production, QC, and "insurance" (replacement margin built-in to price). Either is fine, it's not a moral question just one of results.
----
1: One which I question anyway, it exclusively applies to someone who needs more then internal battery life and requires specifically the extremely narrow band of a somewhat heavier phone or worse battery life phone but not quite as much as a minimal battery case would be and must use it constantly for hours with only seconds of downtime running around (or else it'd be better to just plug it in to a larger battery for a little bit while grabbing a snack or it's steady or whatever). Frankly I struggle to figure out who exactly this applies to for mobile devices.
What's there to hide about doing my duty as a citizen to work to make my country a better place?
>I don't know if that means you're a lawyer for Apple or another firm that is fighting Right to Repair.
I don't know if ignoring all my specific arguments entirely and immediately jumping to conspiracy crap means you're a shill for iFixit or the like but the rules of HN ask that everyone assumes good faith as the default position, and those are good rules for an online discussion. Guessing that perhaps you instead just have a very strong emotional connection to the act of tinkering and "repairing" perhaps, FWIW I strongly empathize with you. I absolutely know the feeling of wanting to mess around with things at a lower level then is "normal" and am both upset and threatened feeling by the idea that might get closed down more and more. Nevertheless each specific case needs to be weighed on its merits and the physical violence of the State is a very big hammer to wield. For those of us living in a democracy it is our duty to question and pick at suggestions to do so every single time, even if ultimately we come to agree.
>As a consumer, I am for repairability.
As a consumer I am for reasonable universal expectations of guaranteed lifespan with that built right into the sticker price so that the market can properly function. I absolutely do not think "repairability" is a goal in and of itself to the exclusion of all else, and think that legislating such would hurt consumers.
>Maybe my perspective would be different if my annual bonus depended on increasing the number of units sold every year.
Or maybe your perspective would be different if you considered opposing arguments with rigor and intellectual honesty rather then slimy insinuations and personal attacks? That is the behavior you just engaged in and frankly it's ridiculous, particularly since we both are (apparently?) in favor of enhanced consumer protection. For root's sake, think about what you are actually saying: I specifically called for a legal requirement of something that'd amount to a full warranty with government mandated performance requirements for a period of a minimum of 2 years and going up to 5 years and then ALSO possibly a paid repair/replace requirement after that. This would essentially nuke the enormously profitable extended warranty market just for starters, force companies to internalize public expectations and costs, and you think that's something big corps would be in favor of?? Really?
People are actually reporting that iOS 12 runs faster than iOS 11.
>Under stress tests, iOS 12 loaded share sheet display up to 2X faster on the iPhone 6 Plus. The keyboard opens 50 percent faster on older devices, while apps launch 40 percent faster and the camera opens 70 percent faster.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.zdnet.com/google-amp/articl...
Does it run faster than iOS 6?
No, of course not, there are more, compute heavy, features and it's not worth it to spend huge amounts of time to support a phone you're no longer selling.
Unfortunately, without the newer versions of the iOS the phone loses functionalities pretty quickly (the apps will require newer versions of iOS), which, quite conveniently for Apple, will make you need to buy a new one. Aka planned obsolescence.
But kudos for getting at least one version of iOS to perform better than the last one (if that's true). That would be awesome if they actually kept this as a long-term trend.
https://www.fastcompany.com/90237242/take-apples-advice-dont...
Yes, as hardware improves and the OS and applications take advantage of this hardware, newer applications may run slower on older hardware. I'm not aware of any phone manufacturer or OS for which this isn't true. AFAIK, there is no other system that supports this level of backwards compatibility.
Of the competition, only some environments running on Linux/BSD kinda manages to do the same. Android is just laughable in comparison.
> Everybody is ok with throwing away
> perfectly working devices
I reset my first generation iPad - last updated 2011 - last year and was able to load and run older versions of most of the apps for streaming services that were available back then - Netflix, Hulu, Crackle, Spotify, Plex, etc.
Also, my experience with the last compatible version (for iPhone 4 IIRC) was that IIRC neither Skype nor Hangouts worked anymore. Plus the whole device was incredibly slow.
What exploit has there been in an app that let it exfiltrate data from another app or read your web browsing history for any version of iOS?
As far as Google, it’s no surprise that Google abandoned older protocols. That’s kind of their MO....
IOS 6.1.2 came out 6 months after iOS 7
But what unpatched security flaws have been reported in older versions of iOS that would allow an attacker to install a keylogger or otherwise exfiltrate user data?
…a jailbreak?
A “tethered jailbreak” means the user purposefully went through a series of steps to jailbreak thier device or someone else physically got access to thier device.
The difference is that an untethered jailbreak takes advantage of a security flaw in the OS that could be theoretically embedded into a website that you visit and your phone could be jail broken without your knowledge.
A tethered jailbreak means that you either intentionally took steps to bypass the security of the OS or someone who had access to your device did.
I don't follow the field of iOS security. I only know that, like everyone whose computing devices handle sensitive data and/or money, I want my system to be patched ASAP if a vulnerability is detected. AFAIK, Apple makes no such guarantees.
But as far as iOS, I am not aware of any unpatched security vulnerabilities that have been reported in over ten years that would allow an app to exfiltrate sensitive data from another app on a none jailbroken device.
Many still are, although unfortunately many follow the path led by Apple. Here's an educational link for those who think everyone else is as bad as Apple:
https://www.ifixit.com/laptop-repairability
I have a HP ProBook myself and as far as laptops it is a joy to work on. Very repair-friendly. I can get to the hard drive, battery, CPU and RAM in minutes with no trouble and no weird tools. The entire bottom of the machine comes off very easily and reveals the exposed and helpfully labeled internals. I upgraded the i3 CPU to an i7 myself in like ten minutes a couple of months ago. I also know for a fact that dust particles have entered the keyboard on more than one occasion yet I am still here, typing away.
Apple has been systematically and consistently working against repairability and upgradability for decades -- pretty much ever since the original Macintosh. If they want to suddenly change now that's great. I'll believe it when I see it.
You say this, but your link shows that the 2011/2012 Macbook Pro is pretty high in the charts with a score of 7/10. Even then the biggest flaw they point out is the use of tri-wing screws.
I agree that currently Apple isn't embracing ease of repairs in its laptop lineup, but to say that they've been working against it for decades is a bit of an overstatement.
I have an iPhone 5S and it runs much better with iOS 12 than it did with iOS 10 or 11. The UI is faster and smoother, apps load quicker, battery life is still decent. In many ways it makes it feel like a new phone.
Some phones require heat gunning the screen as a start to open, then the battery is deep inside. Not with iPhones.
>According to iFixit, the Surface Laptop isn’t repairable at all. In fact, it got a 0 out of 10 for repairability and was labeled a “glue-filled monstrosity.”
https://www.extremetech.com/computing/251046-ifixit-labels-s...
Shiftphones[1] can be completely dissembled and repaired by the end-users, and they don't look any different from other smartphone. So, it's certainly possible to do. However, I don't think that's what an average Apple customer prioritizes. "The thinnest and lightest iPhone ever" sells much better in the ad.
But several articles seem to point out that the upgrade cycle is slowing down -- up to 2 and 3/4 years according to this source (https://www.npd.com/wps/portal/npd/us/news/press-releases/20...) for instance.
I think the second link is correct that 5G might offer some incentive to upgrade, but else wise there's just less reason to constantly upgrade your phones these days. The delta between an iPhone 7 and an iPhone 8 is not that huge versus the delta between an iPhone 3GS and an iPhone 4.
I have a year-old X with a cracked camera lens that Apple wants $450 to fix (under AppleCare+), but some YouTube video says I can fix myself for $7. The third-party repair centers near me say they won't touch it. The only reason my mother-in-law is still using my ancient hand-me-down 5s is because the small repair shops will replace the screen and battery on that one for almost nothing.
Although I also have an Android phone of a similar vintage with a replaceable battery. Nobody sells that battery model anymore. It's a doorstop.
I’d argue that the ability to solder is still repairability, it just requires the service tech to have soldering skills. It’s not like there’s actual restrictions preventing it.
My clothes drier is repairable, but requires electrical skills. Phones are more complicated now. It stands to reason that they’re more complicated to repair.
Even so holes in the wall fix the common hardware issues for like $100.
We used to think the same about PCs, but now I haven't found an excuse to upgrade in seven years (this is equivalent to the time between the 3dfx Voodoo 1 and the Gforce FX 5x000 series!). I see absolutely no reason why the same isn't happening with phones, it just isn't that visible because of wear and tear replacement (and the various obsolescence tricks).
I loved that with my now rather old G2, I effectively never plugged the actual phone in, I had a wall charger for batteries and just swapped them in and out. Now I just use a powerbank which isn't nearly as convenient. Rapid charge on phones has made running out of battery far less painful however.
Laptops are the one that really drive me nuts and I haven't heard a very compelling argument against a user replaceable battery. Some thinkpads even have a small internal battery that provides enough juice to let you swap out the main battery and not have the computer shut off - that's super cool and practical, i'll take a few mm extra thickness.
That's how warranties work.
But it runs well. That's the whole point of iOS 12: make iOS run well on older devices.
If we care about the environment even one single little bit repairability should be on everyone's priority list.
I'm sure the sleek new $1100 iPhones that came out last week are even worse.
At the risk of being rude, you haven’t tried very hard then to replace the screen. It’s pretty easily doable under $100, IF you don’t go to Apple to get it repaired that is.
Repairability.
The repairability of apple products is so poor that even Apple can't fix most of their own products without replacing surprisingly large portions of any given Apple device. End user repairability has been utterly neglected. Disassembly is frequently impossible without causing damage, and components such as batteries are frequently soldered on.
Are other manufacturers better? They used to be. Apple leads the way, and now the average phone is nearly as difficult to repair as an iPhone.
Hey, it's great that they managed to get iOS 12 to run on a 5S. It probably runs like an absolute dog, but it runs! Just wonderful. How easy is it for end-users to replace the battery in that off-warranty 5S? Oh. I see. Well, running iOS 12 on a 5S isn't so practical then, is it?
Repairability. I'll believe point #2 when Apple stops making every succeeding generation of their products harder for end-users to repair.