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Re:Apple now strives to design and build products that last ... by sokoloff on Monday September 17, 2018 @08:03AM (#18005037)
> How easy is it for end-users to replace the battery in that off-warranty 5S? Oh. I see.

I did it in about 45 minutes the first time, and could do another in 20-30 minutes pretty easily.

It's now a 5-year old phone. 10 minutes labor per year is OK in my book.

How easy is it for end-users to replace the clutch in that off-warranty Civic? For that matter, how many people even change their own brakes (one of the easiest DIY tasks, IMO)?

Re:Apple now strives to design and build products that last ... by justtopost on Monday September 17, 2018 @08:41AM (#18005347)
Now, I am clearly not the avg HN reader, but I did a civic clutch last month. 1st one lasted over 200k, and I am replacing the second. It took me about 4 hours with a floor jack, basic tools and a harbor freight impact. But it also lasted 15 years with constant use, and is literally designed a phisical wear item. My battery I replace every 3 years, as my climate is both extremely cold and hot. Its right up front with 2 easily accesable bolts. I think your metaphor is lacking nuance.
Re:Apple now strives to design and build products that last ... by King-Aaron on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @03:38AM (#18013296)
+1

When I did mine recently, I dropped the entire K-frame, box and engine on to the floor in around 45-60minutes, had the head off in another 10 minutes, surfaced both the flywheel and head's mating surfaces within the next 30 minutes (hey-ho flappy disk on the grinder! It's just an EG Civic with a d15b) and had the whole car assembled in an hour. The fact that I have access to a two post hoist cut my time down.

Now compared with the fact that I have destroyed two phones attempting to separate the adhesive rubbish that holds everything together inside them, I actually think changing the clutch on an EG is probably easier for the "average" user than changing a modern phone battery. A decent set of ratcheting spanners, a torque wrench and a Haynes manual is all you need, and you're not going to accidentally break anything.

It should also be noted that almost all cars "back in the day" (i.e. the 30's, 40's, etc) noted in their own user manuals how to check ring gaps etc with the expectations that owners would rebuild their own cars. How far we've come.

Re:Apple now strives to design and build products that last ... by janlaureys on Monday September 17, 2018 @08:22AM (#18005161)
The 5 series and SE phones are pretty easy to repair indeed. I've replaced a screen and battery with no experience, a few tools from ifixit and a youtube video without much hassle. It's gone pretty downhill from there with the iphone 6. Especially because the screens are much more intricate.
Re:Apple now strives to design and build products that last ... by crispyambulance on Monday September 17, 2018 @08:40AM (#18005339)
I've done the 5s battery replacement and would say that it is not "easy" (I work with electronics HW everyday). It is a pain in the ass and requires tools, a serious chunk of time, a clear desk and the right attitude/patience.

This is something that can become routine for practiced folks, or for people that are motivated to try the challenge, but there's a lot of opportunity for mishaps. In fact one way that many people get new phones is when Genius Bars screw-up the battery replacement-- so even pro's can't get it right 100% of the time.

Re:Apple now strives to design and build products that last ... by basch on Monday September 17, 2018 @09:27AM (#18005716)
The newer phones are easier to lift the screen out of, and replace the battery? Have you taken apart a 4 and a 6? A 6 is MUCH easier.
Re:Apple now strives to design and build products that last ... by saagarjha on Monday September 17, 2018 @12:47PM (#18007551)
Replacing the battery in an iPhone 4 requires taking off the back cover, not the screen. And it was really a pleasant process when I did it two weeks ago. I had expected much worse, but I only had to get through three screws (granted, they were a bit small, but still).
Re:Apple now strives to design and build products that last ... by sokoloff on Monday September 17, 2018 @08:24AM (#18005185)
The later phones are still under the Apple $29 battery replacement program I think. I'd leave those to Apple.

If an end-user doesn't want to do their 5/5S/SE on their own, there are kiosks in nearly every mall that will do it for you in an hour or so.

Re:Apple now strives to design and build products that last ... by vbezhenar on Monday September 17, 2018 @08:24AM (#18005193)
> I did it in about 45 minutes the first time, and could do another in 20-30 minutes pretty easily.

Does it work with recent water-proof phones? I thought that there's some kind of glue to protect from water.

Re:Apple now strives to design and build products that last ... by sokoloff on Monday September 17, 2018 @08:28AM (#18005224)
I don't know, but I do know that if the phone was covered under Apple's $29 (parts and labor) battery program, I'd go that way for sure.

https://support.apple.com/iphone/repair/battery-power

Re:Apple now strives to design and build products that last ... by vbezhenar on Monday September 17, 2018 @08:36AM (#18005303)
Well, that $29 is only a limited offering. I only recently bought iPhone 8, so, I hope, it'll work few years, but then probably it'll require battery replacement.
Re:Apple now strives to design and build products that last ... by threeseed on Monday September 17, 2018 @08:39AM (#18005330)
It then jumps up to $49.

Still not a huge amount of money given the cost of the phone.

Re:Apple now strives to design and build products that last ... by wrycoder on Monday September 17, 2018 @08:40AM (#18005335)
You haven’t yet enjoyed replacing the rusted pads and rotors on an eight year old New England car.
Re:Apple now strives to design and build products that last ... by sokoloff on Monday September 17, 2018 @08:43AM (#18005365)
Oh, but I have... 30 years here (Cambridge and Southern NH) and every one of mine and many of my friends have been done by me.

Air tools, acetone/ATF mix, and a propane torch are your friend at times.

Re:Apple now strives to design and build products that last ... by berbec on Monday September 17, 2018 @09:17AM (#18005624)
If you have any of that, it really help! I end up going with channel-locks and a six-foot pole.
Re:Apple now strives to design and build products that last ... by wrycoder on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @08:39PM (#18020681)
I had better tools, but definitely used the cheater bar on the caliper bolts. I'm not a pro like sokoloff. ATF, acetone and a torch? Brrr
Re:Apple now strives to design and build products that last ... by tonyarkles on Monday September 17, 2018 @09:17AM (#18005626)
You forgot your 4lb baby sledgehammer to "encourage" the rotor to pop off :)
Re:Apple now strives to design and build products that last ... by sokoloff on Monday September 17, 2018 @09:48AM (#18005867)
Yup. Bad memories for sure. That's why I love the makers who put threaded holes in two places on the rotor into which you insert bolts and press the rotor off with the bolts. Honda does it; I can't remember if Mercedes does it consistently or not.
Re:Apple now strives to design and build products that last ... by tonyarkles on Monday September 17, 2018 @02:17PM (#18008456)
Thanks for the reminder about those! I helped change brakes on a friend's... Accord (I think) and remember being delighted to find those bolt holes. Unfortunately haven't encountered those since then on any of my vehicles.
Re:Apple now strives to design and build products that last ... by icantdrive55 on Monday September 17, 2018 @09:09AM (#18005552)
"For that matter, how many people even change their own brakes (one of the easiest DIY tasks, IMO)?"

Most poor people, middle class (what's left).

Although rental agreements, and section 8 leases prohibit working on any vechicle on said properties.

The average person should know how to repace at least the front disc brake pads. (Jack, torx, or 12-13 mm socket, c-champ to push fluid back into reservoir, and pads. 2 hour job.)

Yes, a manual clutch is another story, but if you have access to a garage, or lot, it's a weekend job.

Still it's two jacks, socket set, 3/8 torq wrench (most shops don't bother torque), flashlight, jack stands, clutch pack set, with includes plastic clutch alignment tool. It's a long weekend job. It goes quicker if you have a friend who's done one before, or a strong young person who's been under a vechicle at least a few times.

So yes, there are so many of us who just don't have the funds to hire people to do things.

I am one of those people. Hell, I still cut my hair with a vacuume cleaner?

Poor people are in a bind when trying to fix their jalopy because rental housing is so restrictive. (In other parts of the country, I imagine it's not so bad, but in the Bay Area landlords usually have 42 pages of cant's.)

My point is so many Americans just don't have the luxury of having someone else do the work anymore.

In my world, the repairability of a product is of utmost importance.

Then again, I am stumped over anyone spending $1000 for a dumb phone. Giving money to a company who builds their products overseas, and can't figure out what to do with their profits.

I do give them props for security though. I guess if I was important enough, iron clad security would be worth a lot more than a grand?

I will use my three Apple products until they die.

I will then rely on the surplus of perfecly good products discarded by the wealthy, or people whom think things will will always be ok.

Sorry about the rant. There's so many products that are unfeasible, or impossible to fix. It's like the government forgot The Sherman Anti-trust Act? I feel weird about bringing up the Act? Why? Because we are talking about a phone. A dumb phone? It's not so dumb when you can't get schematics on on the electronics in your boiler, or can't get repair codes off your vechicle.

Re:Apple now strives to design and build products that last ... by brokenmachine on Monday September 17, 2018 @09:45PM (#18011722)
> Hell, I still cut my hair with a vacuume cleaner?

How do you cut your hair with a vacuum cleaner?

Re:Apple now strives to design and build products that last ... by llampx on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @04:57AM (#18013604)
Look up the Flowbee.
Re:Apple now strives to design and build products that last ... by lawlessone on Monday September 17, 2018 @08:52AM (#18005427)
I can buy a phone for 10 euro in tesco, the back unclips in a and i can replace the battery as fast as i can pick it up.
Re:Apple now strives to design and build products that last ... by jaxtellerSoA on Monday September 17, 2018 @08:56AM (#18005461)
>How easy is it for end-users to replace the clutch in that off-warranty Civic? For that matter, how many people even change their own brakes (one of the easiest DIY tasks, IMO)?

You comparing apples and oranges. There is a difference between a task that genuinely requires labor (replacing brakes), and something that is artificially harder solely to discourage people from doing it, but could (and ought) to be a simple task that can be done 15 seconds.

Honda isn't intentionally making it more complex to get to your brake pads and rotors.

Re:Apple now strives to design and build products that last ... by ceejayoz on Monday September 17, 2018 @08:59AM (#18005477)
One person's "intentionally making it more complex" is another person's "waterproof to two meters".
Re:Apple now strives to design and build products that last ... by jjoonathan on Monday September 17, 2018 @09:49AM (#18005874)
Have gaskets really been forgotten for technical reasons or were they quietly smothered when the planned obsolescence benefits of potting entered the industry's consciousness?
Re:Apple now strives to design and build products that last ... by ceejayoz on Monday September 17, 2018 @10:16AM (#18006115)
When my kids' lunch container gaskets leak, I have to throw the lunchbox in the wash.

When my iPhone's leak, I'm out potentially $1500.

Re:Apple now strives to design and build products that last ... by jjoonathan on Monday September 17, 2018 @02:53PM (#18008856)
There are a dozen gaskets along your car's power train that will set you back multiple times that amount if they fail, yet they don't and you trust them not to.

Of course, if you let your kid reassemble either your power train or your $1500 iPhone without supervision, the results will be exactly as you describe, but also entirely your own damn fault.

Re:Apple now strives to design and build products that last ... by ceejayoz on Monday September 17, 2018 @03:24PM (#18009123)
> There are a dozen gaskets along your car's power train that will set you back multiple times that amount if they fail, yet they don't and you trust them not to.

For that reason, I maintain precisely zero of them myself.

Re:Apple now strives to design and build products that last ... by jjoonathan on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @01:45AM (#18012770)
Regardless of whether or not you do the repairs yourself, you reap the benefits of the design as some combination of longer life, lower repair bills, and higher resale value.
Re:Apple now strives to design and build products that last ... by ceejayoz on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @09:01AM (#18014875)
Apple's pricing for a battery replacement - which I've never needed, and I tend to keep my devices for about three years - is about the same as the price of a new battery from a third-party vendor, and it comes from installation. I've had to replace two screens, and Apple's price is the same as the mall kiosk - and it'll be first-party parts, maintain the warranty, and my fingerprint sensor will still work right.

Apple devices (both laptops and phones) have a dramatically higher resale value than others, so that bit of your argument baffles me.

Re:Apple now strives to design and build products that last ... by jjoonathan on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @06:43PM (#18019929)
I was talking about your car.

The reason why apple offers those services is because it has competition. If they figure out how to make third party repair intractable, you can expect a full reversion to the "screw you, buy a new device" state of affairs.

Re:Apple now strives to design and build products that last ... by AstralStorm on Monday September 17, 2018 @11:56AM (#18007092)
Nah, the modern silicone gaskets will hold waterproof to low pressure even with imperfect seal, and you can detect that with a cheap impedance sensor.

(Obviously telling the user that water proofing is compromised and that they need to retry attaching whatever they tried to attach or replace it.)