Maintainability concerns are entirely overblown by people who don't use agentic AI to develop large mobile apps, but anyway give their opinion as if they had that experience.

I put in a few hundred hours, and I reached the same conclusion as Shopify. With reviews from other models and then a manual QA pass the result is fully usable.

Some people on the cybersecurity side are starting to cry....

Last time, when I pointed out that the attack surface for mobile apps is typically very small, some users started to talk about zero day vulnerabilities in the OS's media handling, as if it was a concern for my app implementation.

I found the concerns again wildly overblown.

2. Wild use of webviews/iframes sometimes easily propagates as XSS in phones

3. Incorrect client-side OAuth 2.0 configuration e.g. with schema-based redirect URLs.

4. Not supporting high-enough API versions, which may prevent some OS-related weaknesses

5. The list is actually very long. Just few top of my mind.

Or a login form that gets hidden after login, but clears the username and password only when you click "login back in". (Bonus points if the backend also enforces a 5min session timeout "for security".)

Turn on the secrets scan in GitLab, and put in your release checklist to have the AI audit the usage of secrets in your app, and this is basically guaranteed not to occur.

I doubt current models even make such a mistake in the first place, and particularly so if you use reviews at all.

WebViews are not an inherent problem, it's the system browser embedded in your app.

Where it gets tricky is if your use case involves authentication in the browser. Together with the authentication in your app this is the one area where you need to focus on security.

The case where a SDK update is needed to prevent weaknesses of the OS seems rather unlikely.

sounds like your app is nothing serious

So you end up paying people on Fiverr to do it which costs more than 99€

OP says they don't have an android phone...

And in the past, I didn't care because when I was manually building the app, I would just do my best with react native. But now that I can actually sweat the details (with the help of agents), I do want to hear from android users and use as many OS-native APIs and features.

I'd order a cheap Android phone to have a device in hand instead of working only with the simulator.

I could only sweat the details on liquid glass, etc because I'm a daily iOS user.

Can you share some details of how you work? What models? What harness?

I don't know if Gemini is suitable.

I had few issues with my native iOS app, the results are just decent after a few iterations, the models do what I ask them to do. Where do you see the problem?

The LOC for my app is now at almost 200k + 110k lines of test code.

what the fuck are you talking about

I hate software engineering now.

That‘s how you check functionality but that’s not how you get the bugs in the code.

That’s like translating a text to another language without knowing the language

What do you think has more training data Python or Kotlin?

[yes, this would also get rid of the previous generation of 1000-JS-lego vibers]

Most of the time when I review code from AI, there is always something to improve.

It’s either a maintenance issue. e.g., Opus recommended and implemented a fix for a database corruption crash. This was ~400 lines of code with many moving parts. I reviewed, and found out Android Room library already handles this recovery case, and all I needed was a 10 liner PR that catches this exception and ignores it.

The maintenance is not only the burden on the human and LLM. With too many moving parts, it becomes harder and harder to build and verify the correctness of future features. Yes you can write test for this and that, but it didn’t need to exist in the first place.

The second problem is correctness issues. Especially the edge cases. You cannot just manually test out a race condition on a phone! Sometimes it happens! Sometimes it doesn’t! If it leads to a visible signal like a crash, then yes, you can try to reproduce it. But there are a lot of these that are “silent” and would just lead to bad experiences.

We already had a software quality crisis! And I think such views only exacerbate the situation! Quality matters!

And this is not an anti-AI stance. I vibe code personal projects where I don’t even look at the code. But when I use AI as a professional engineer, I act like a professional. Because these products do have an impact on people’s lives.

I also used to work full time as a Android developer for five years, and I'm pretty sure I know better than you about the quality of my app that I work on everyday.

Years of experience doesn’t mean much! I will challenge you on ideas. And the idea you are sharing is dangerous and unprofessional.

Especially at scale. e.g., we process more than 3.5 billion orders annually! This is serious business. Edge cases are common.

I think we are over-indexing on speed of delivery. I think this is a mistake. The alpha is in speed and quality.

Currently, my experience is that human + AI can write software faster and with better quality than either party can do alone.

I understand this, but I just can't bring myself to care. I've been doing professional software work for almost two decades. These sorts of improvements/time savers are great without AI. With AI? Whatever. It's fine.

When the underlying lib has an issue, it'll be quicker to debug with the whole thing in context.

It depends on how hard to maintain the code added is, how likely it needs to change in the future, and most importantly on the cost.

If reviewing and manually improving the code takes hours, the cost may already be in the thousands.

That buys you a lot of AI usage, roughly a few months of continuous work.

You have to balance this with the chance that the suboptimal code the AI generated is actually fine and maintainable enough, and also the chance that during further work on that code a model might implement the same optimization on its own.

And more recently its been recommending that i install this new browser called Aside. I did, and it almost felt like I was installing malware so I Uninstalled it fairly quickly (it also was not a great browser)

I feel like theres collusion somewhere.

I don’t see any reason to think the same thing that happens with all tech won’t happen here.

You can write more automation to test it. But that's also how you end up with ever-growing test run times.

There are much better ways that aren't just "throw out the LLM" either. You just need to be more focused on throughput. Requiring manual validation can pretty rapidly require more hours than just sanity-checking code by hand, even (and I'm not advocating that for every use case, either.)

I can't afford manual QA passes if I'm gonna go as quickly as I want to.

It's a fine project to do but clearly they put zero value on being familiar with the project's codebase/stack and ecosystem, which makes me feel fear in my heart when I imagine the first "production is down" page coming in. I already hated mobile because it's so much harder to maintain than web (and I don't do any spyware or IAP so no benefits for me there); this yolo approach would give me constant dread.

It shows that at least some software development is moving away from code and to product management instead. I'm not passing judgement on that; I actually think that's great for a lot of software. It is interesting to see the shift happening though and will be fun to see if the general quality of software noticeably changes over the next few years.

But I am going to always prioritize the user experience over a developer (like myself)'s need for satisfaction to see code. And a pure native app is _always_ going to behave better than react native.

This gives me a chance to do that.

Maybe iOS is better about consistency, but I've used enough horribly made Android apps that I would not expect one that's vibe coded to behave better than a professionally made react native version.

That said, I do recommend reading the code the LLM produces whether you understand the language or not. What better time to learn?

You are familiar with the React Native code, you are not familiar with the Swift or Kotlin code, and likely nobody on your team is, since the AI wrote all of it for you.

As much as I dislike it, I think that's the future of _all_ non-critical software (think social media, crms, CI, food delivery etc). Leadership in many companies is explicitly asking employees to have multiple agents running through the day and that will lead to this.

Read this for example: https://www.uber.com/in/en/blog/efficient-software-factory/ . A very useful system, I am sure. But when you have AI at every layer from code to review to triaging, rest assured AI is the only know who knows your system. And you better hope it's not telling you that something is load bearing during an incident.

I read the article again:

- We had bugs. We let agents try to fix the bugs. True positive (fixed bug) is the F1 score. Here are the results for different models. Fixes worked 50% of the time.

- We needed to find a query. Without a knowledge graph it took 20mins, and didn't work. We used a knowledge graph. It was fast (20s), and found the right thing.

I gave my LLM my summary of the article and apparently I "hit the nail on the head".

I have no clue if I learned anything.

When you’re completely ignorant, there’s nothing to be afraid of.

But yes we are having real Android users test it.

So it’s quite the contrary. I care MORE what real users say. I can only guarantee that the app does things when I tap. So I’m not trusting the agent on UX, only on functionality. But whether it feels native, I am relying on those users in our team.

I still would feel scared operating an established product off a newly changed stack the team isn't familiar with though.

But our product now has a way more extensive test suite than it ever did, again, thanks to the agents writing pretty damn good tests.

Remember Chinese accounts on US Facebook say data centers are bad.

If you are blind, you cant see anything wrong, if you are deaf uou cant hear anything is wrong.

They had previously chosen React Native because it was easier for programmers to keep it updated, since it was really just 1 codebase. With AI, those same programmers can do the more difficult version, keeping the native apps updated separately.

So did it kill a job, or did it make it possible for the existing programmers to do it better?

It's the kind of thing that is really hard to determine in general, but here, it really does sound like they only made the change because it became possible with existing resources. They would not have done it otherwise.

The parent's point is that AI lowers the cost/benefit ratio drastically, by reducing the cost. So companies that would have shied away from projects like this pre-AI are now pulling the trigger without much hesitation.

…as long as Claude is still subsidized…

Sounds like you agree

We all want super exciting jobs. But plenty have boring jobs like this. Between not having a job or having a boring job that pays well, the choice is obvious for many of us.

I personally never minded doing migrations. I guess I don't really have to anymore though. Weird.

I think that rewrite - if AI enabled - owes its thanks to the legion of individuals who put their code up on the internet in the first place.

Weird times.

Seems similar to eminent domain, but without limitations.

Not anymore.

Just like this has made Web devs into Mobile devs, so could Mobile devs leverage AI to work in Web shops.

I'm not an optimist but there could be an increase of available apps being created which would still keep people employed. Theoretically the cost of creating an iOS app for a company without an engineering team dropped from several hundreds of thousand to a few thousand or hundreds, which could be paid out to a freelancer with AI. More people would go into freelancing for industries which were not contemplated before due to cost.

But I'm not an optimist.

Myself turned some python code to Swift, and keep doing so, without trouble or pressure. Of course, I've been doing fair amount of systems programming for 20 years now, so not sure what to advice newcomers. But this approach to dev DOES work for me very well.

[1] Epigrams in Programming:

https://engineering.yale.edu/academic-study/departments/comp...

Each time I get access to a new model, I do two things on all our active codebases:

- Security review of all the code and vulnerabilities (new models will find new stuff)

- Code review of test suite quality, and idiomatic patterns/code for the language of that codebase.

And in the case of swift and kotlin, it's even more important that an agent helps me with the code quality since I don't know what "idiomatic" swift or kotlin looks like, the way I do with JS, Elixir, C#, Ruby, etc.

What does your app do?

For most app that concept is "gone".

People routinely decompile and recompose existing binaries, and if you use "obfuscation" in your app it's still a small bump.

In today's age, IP is no longer a tangible concept that gives any advantages in software. What differentiates two businesses isn't their IP, it's their relationships and their moat.

Most vendors that had protected proprietary IP are now irrelevant within their vertical. What saves them are the protection provided by patents, which is public.

They don’t care about your code. There’s more and better data on the public web.

Also what's the timing on this setting's effectiveness? What if before you knew to "opt out" you used the agent for a refactor and your entire repo got sucked up in inference? But then you opt out the next day? Is it too late?

And there are solutions around it from other providers and model routers. OpenRouter lets you explicitly say on a per-request basis you don’t want to be routed to a provider that trains on your input, for example.

If a company really believed there’s valuable IP in code, there would at a minimum, ban laptops or ban code on laptops[0], provide and maintain a centrally managed LLM gateway[1] that handles authentication, billing and model choice, have MDM to prevent you from using your own Claude login, etc.

[0]: For example when I worked at Google, the proprietary google3 codebase cannot exist on laptops because there are no tools to download it to your laptop.

[1]: For example Claude code supports having a gateway: https://code.claude.com/docs/en/llm-gateway-connect

Heck, you don't even need to mix up a personal and business AI subscription. For the vast majority of folks one day their IDE "updated" and a bunch of AI features suddenly became available. Free, no sub needed. A dev starts using them (because, why not?) and lo and behold the company's code got shipped out in an inference call and is now scheduled to be in the next training run. Oops.

Actions speak louder than words. If the company doesn't even supply and require work devices, they don't effectively consider their code to be valuable IP.

Of course the company can still consider their code to be valuable IP.

IDE updated? It’s the company IT’s job to perform testing before distributing those updates. And also their job to use whatever managed settings to disable those unmanaged AI features.

A single digit headcount startup with a "company IT" team testing program updates before distributing them??? Um, no. You just download VS Code (or whatever IDE you want) on the Macbook they give you and it updates when Microsoft pushes a public update.

It is all the small things e.g.

YouTube Mobile website works really well when you have a inconsistent connection compared to the alternatives such as Odysee, Rumble, Kick and Twitch.

I can listen to a live stream or a video style podcast in the car and YouTube will resume the connection properly as long as the browser tab on my phone hasn't gone to sleep. Kick will just stop, if it is a replay it will resume from the start of the stream after rewinding the stream a few seconds while attempting playback.

While the code to do this isn't that difficult. YouTube has bothered to deal with the edge case of someone like me driving through an area with inconsistent connection while running their mobile site (not even their app).

Whenever people try to use alternatives, they often complain about poor reliability of the app. A lot of the clones are losing users and I doubt they really even know they are doing it.

LLMs made it way worse https://ashishb.net/tech/react-native/