The discounts he negotiated left me with tons of cash & were in excess of the fee he charged me.
For the uninsured this sort of thing is actually really common. Had an online friend who had to get emergency treatment and they sent him a bill for $20k. His response was, "lol I'm uninsured and don't give a fuck about my credit score, so, fuck you basically." The bill was revised to $500, which he paid just to not have that debt on his record.
IMHO, it's actually worse than we realize. The Medical Loss Ratio requirement is good because it requires insurance companies to spend 80% or 85% of premiums on health care. It's bad because one way for insurance companies to make more money is to have inflated health care prices to justify increasing premiums so they can get 80% of a bigger pie. It also gives them incentives to provide care themselves so they can capture some of that 80% spend.
> For the uninsured this sort of thing is actually really common. Had an online friend who had to get emergency treatment and they sent him a bill for $20k.
I experienced this personally with my own insurance. My bill was over $20k, and it took a year to convince the insurance company that removing a few feet of my intestines was actually emergency surgery. I ended up paying $800. My roommate in the hospital had no insurance and ended up not paying anything (which I did not begrudge them at all, since the reason for no insurance was debilitating back pain that led to unemployment)
This only makes sense if they have no competitors since another insurance company would just steal their customers by having lower rates.
The truth is though, healthcare providers are ultimately responsible for prices.
This assumes the competitors are not all colluding to raise prices across the board
SP500 10 year annual return: 14.6%
UNH: 13.59% Elevance: 10.79% Cigna 9.42% Humana: 6.1% CVS: 0.55% Molina: 9.42% Centene: 0.9%
Or, the likelier explanation, is that health insurance prices are highly regulated and have to get their prices approved by a government official(s), and B) they don't have a lot of pricing power due to the competition and they are not colluding.
https://www.unitedhealthgroup.com/content/dam/UHG/PDF/invest...
https://s202.q4cdn.com/665319960/files/doc_financials/2025/a...
The executives seem to have a heavy interest in equity returns.
LOL. Meanwhile, in real-life America, there are only four or five major carriers that control the market, and none of them are incentivized to do this "competition" thing you speak of by engaging in damaging price wars. Why would they when continuing to be part of the problem makes them more and more profits each year? See also: military contracting. Do you see them constantly undercutting each other? No, they buy each other, reducing the number of bidders on every contract.
Where I live, they do compete on price - prices vary by about 30% for similar coverage. They can't engage in the kind of price war you're thinking of since insurance companies, by law, have to maintain a fund able to cover costs, have to get rate changes approved by regulators and are largely banned from price discrimination.
I understand the desire to shift blame entirely onto insurance companies rather than providers. After all, one is all about money and the other is seemingly all about healing.
Heck, when a provider does bill people directly because an insurance company refused to pay, we blame insurance companies - even when the charges on those bills are highway robbery - like those in the article itself.
The fact is, the net cost of health insurance was about $279 billion in 2022. Meanwhile, $3.7 trillion went to healthcare providers, pharmacies and the like for care. The ones who stand the most to gain from higher prices are providers.
Frankly, decades of lobbying from the healthcare provider lobby to enrich themselves should have made it this obvious, but sadly, people see doctors as selfless angels and it blinds them.
I practically damn feel sorry for surgeons when I see what they get from insurance versus the hospital for providing the operating room or bed.
In real-life America, they don't even earn enough profit to earn their shareholders a better return than SP500:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45736978
And in real-life America, the only people health insurance companies engage in price wars with is the state insurance regulator who gets to deny requested price increases.
My most sincere wish is that all insurers would be nationalized, every last employee summarily fired, and their HQs all imploded and replaced with memorials to all the people whose lives they have cut short over the years. Not a thing of value would be lost IMO. Worse than paying people to dig holes and fill them in again.
I had read that comcast won't go into century link territory and viceversa, and something along those lines for the major isps, in order be local monopolies and set prices as they like.
This sounds like a really good thing, almost everything coming in has to go back out…
What it really means is they love high “allowed” prices. They live on the 20% and want to see the pie as large as possible.
Healthcare costs go up? They raise premiums — win-win.
The road to hell is only paved with good intentions.
Wouldn't it be 20% of a bigger pile?
The fact that there seems to be a 4x markup means makes me think insurance companies are in bed with these hospitals. If you can mark up prices arbitrarily high, the insurance "discount" is fake.
Don't leave out the part where the consumer doesn't even shop (or sometimes pay) for the insurance policy either, it is determined by their place of work.
So the consumer of healthcare is doubly shielded from any price signals the market might supply.
HCSMs are membership organizations in which people with common religious or ethical beliefs share medical expenses with one another. They are not the same as traditional health insurance.
Because patients are considered "self-pay", they negotiate their own prices with providers and they are likely to get an 80% or more discount on "list price" for the service. They are reimbursed by the HCSM if the HCSM approves the reimbursement.
As of 2025, approximately 1.7 million Americans participate in Health Care Sharing Ministries (HCSMs), which amounts to about 0.5% of the U.S. population. In Colorado alone, HCSM enrollment (at least 68k) is equivalent to 30 percent of Obamacare enrollment.
Because HCSMs often exclude essential health services and are therefore more attractive to people who are relatively healthy, enrollment of this size, relative to marketplace enrollment, may increase premiums for marketplace plans.
I am not promoting HCSMs but I did research it when I lost my COBRA coverage a few years ago. I do find it an interesting alternative approach to paying for healthcare. We really do need to explore options in this country.
I can definitely see AI being applied in the HCSM context.
https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2...
Not quite: US hospital billing is based on the idea that the insurance company does the haggling for you.
Insurance companies negotiate (cough) "the best rate that the hospital has to offer," therefore: What the insurance company pays is confidential, and the official unnegotiated price is highly inflated. That's why hospitals will always negotiate with uninsured patients, because they're deliberately inflating their fees.
---
In 2011 I had surgery. The first bill was for $100,000, which was sent to the insurance company. Then the insurance company got a letter (cough) "reminding" the hospital of the negotiated rates. The next bill was $20,000. On a follow-up visit, they did an X-ray, and sent me the bill. I sat on it, and then called my insurance company. The insurance company called the hospital to (cough) "remind" them that the negotiated rate for that kind of X-ray was $0.
Or where you as a guest announce that you now go home, and the hosts have to insist you stay for some more tea or whatever and then you have to again and again say you're now going really and they insist you stay so you chat more in the hallway etc. And it's just how it always is and it would be super rude to just leave or if the host didn't demand that you stay.
Similarly the US developed this traditional ritual that the first bill is outrageously expensive and everyone knows that everyone know, but the ritual protocol say you gotta start with that, we are civilized people, we say hello, so in Healthcare the hello is the huge price, and the interaction always ends in a lowered rate, because that's also part of the protocol.
It's just a cultural difference.
The insurance company has no reason to make the health recipient happy and the health recipient has little agency in pricing.
I don't have an employer, but I still only have one company selling health insurance in my county, so... that's all I can buy.
An average person cannot call up $750K in a year to pay for cancer treatment. But for-profit businesses (and any organization for that matter) treat you much better if keep the carrot of another payment in front of their face. If you've forked over the whole wad of cash upfront they immediately de-prioritize keeping you satisfied.
Pretty much every 4+ figure civil violation, fine, etc, etc, is assessed on the basis of "what's the most we can get away with that won't have them taking us to court where it'll get knocked down or cause a public outcry if they tell the news"
Not only does the actual court case and appeals process take years, but even after you “win”, the collection process takes years after it has already been determined who owes what.
See Alex Jones for a ridiculous example. He should have been homeless and shirtless a long time ago.
1. Single-payer health insurance.
2. Laws that insurance-companies must actually use X% of their premiums on payouts.
3. Laws requiring disclosure of negotiated prices, to encourage competition via free-market forces.
And hey! Silver lining: in a year when we max the out of pocket limit, no more cost-sharing on any other services for that calendar year! Time to pack in some care we have been deferring mostly due to cost. Except the care providers and insurance company are well aware of this, so they don't bill you for up to a year from the date of service, so you can't be sure you "hit your max" until the subsequent year.
It is enough to induce strong negative emotions.
https://surgerycenterok.com/surgery-prices/
They're the pioneer, but there are other clinics like that.
A hospital is vastly more complex. They have huge costs (for things they must have) that can’t be recovered 1:1 with services.
If the OPs brother-in-law had had insurance, the hospital would have billed the insurance company the same $195k (albeit with CPT codes in the first place).
The insurance company would have come back and said, "Ok, great, thanks for the bill. We've analyzed it, and you're authorized to received $37k (or whatever the number was) based off our contract/rules."
That number would typically be a bit higher for private insurance (Blue Cross, Blue Shield, United Healthcare, etc), a little lower for Medicare, and even lower for than that for Medicaid.
Then the insurance would have made their calculations relative to the brother-in-law's deductible/coinsurance/etc., made an electronic payment to the hospital, and said, "Ok, you can collect the $X,XXX balance from the patient." ($37k - the Insurers responsability = Patient Responsibility)
Likely by this point in a chronic and fatal disease, the patient would have hit their out-of-pocket maximum previously, so the $37k would have been covered at 100% by the insurance provider.
That's basically the way all medical billing to private and government insurance providers in this country works.
"Put in everything we did and see what we can get paid for by insurance" isn't criminal behavior, it's the way essentially every pay-for-service healthcare organization in the country bills for its services.
I don't say that to either defend the system, or to defend the actions of the hospital in this instance. It certainly feels criminal for the hospital to send an individual an inflated bill they would never expect to pay.
Interestingly enough, the FBI considers double billing and phantom billing by medical providers, to be fraud.
https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/white-collar-crime/health-ca...
If I sound like I'm defending the morality of the hospital for billing a private individual $190k for services they'd expect to be paid $37k for, please know that I'm not. But it helps to understand WHY the hospital billed that much, and whether it's legal for the hospital to bill that much.
The biggest semantic "mistake" the author makes in their thread is saying, "Claude figured out that the biggest rule for Medicare was that one of the codes meant all other procedures and supplies during the encounter were unbillable."
The Medicare rule does not make those codes "unbillable" - it makes them unreimburseable.
The hospital can both bill Medicare for a bigger procedure code, and the individual components of that procedure, but Medicare is gonna say, "Thanks for the bill, you're only entitled to be paid for the bigger procedure code, not the stuff in there."
Neither the FBI nor Medicare is gonna go after the hospital for submitting covered procedure codes and individual codes that are unreimbursable under those procedure codes. That's not crime, that's just medical billing.
Actual double billing would occur if, say, your insurnace paid the hospital for a procedure, and then they came after you for more money, or billed a secondary insurance for the same procedure. Or if they'd said, "Oh no, the OP's brother in law wasn't here for just 4-hours, they were here overnight so now we're billing for that as well."
NOW - a much better way for the hospital to handle this scenario would be to see that the patient is cash-pay, and then have separate cash-pay rates that they get billed that essentially mirror Medicare reimbursement. That's essentially what the author got them to do, and it absolutely sucks that's what he had to do.
The hospital double billed for over $100k worth of services on the original invoice.
At a certain point a pattern of issuing inaccurate invoices crosses the line into negligence.
If a business just have a habit of blasting out invoices that bill for services never received, and they know that they keep doing this, and only correct it when the customer points it out, at a certain point it turns into a crime.
Then, they negotiate with all of the in-network providers for some number that’s well below the billed amount. That number varies a bit based on how effective various negotiations are.
Realistically, OP simply found the number that insurance was going to pay out anyways.
Tons of institutions that specialize in screwing people are built this way because it's pretty hard to "overtly" build an institution to screw people.
Below that, lots of haggling and informal trade often help people get by. The costs of that process can be another burden on the poor. At the high end, it's worth involving people with discretion on the sell side. Additionally, sales are often one-off and customized. They may also bundle a bunch of different items and benefits without clear line-item breakdowns.
When hiring a lawyer, I'd nearly always recommend getting terms down in a written and signed engagement letter before work starts. That is very much a negotiation, but it's fine to ask questions and comparison shop.
If you're starting with a call, it's perfectly normal to start by asking whether initial consultation will be billed or not. If it will be, ask the rate. If it won't be, expect some limits on what can be discussed. The best lawyers I know aren't cheap or easily tricked into giving free advice on consultation calls with speedrunners, but they are up-front about what they charge for and how.
Disclosure: Am lawyer. Negotiate professionally.
Hospital: "Here's your bill for $1,000,000." (a figure which is 100% fictional) Patient: <panic> "Oh shit, I don't have $1,000,000!" Hospital: "Oh, we'll reduce it to $30,000. Aren't we nice!" Patient: <slightly less panic> "I don't have $30,000 either, but it might not bankrupt me immediately, so I guess that'll do..."
Never mind that the same procedure in most of the EU was either "free" (to consumer at time of care) or a fraction of the cost.
The whole system is fucked.
Im increasingly of the opinion that AI gives people more confidence than insight. The author probably could have just thought of the same or similar things to assert to the hospital and gotten the same result. However, he wouldn't have necessarily though his assertions would be convincing, since he has no idea whats going on. AI doesn't either, but it seems like it does.
But in the past, once I got to the point where I know I could maybe do something about it, but not exactly what, and I don't know any of the domain words used, you got pretty much stuck unless you asked other people, either locally or on the internet.
At least now I can explore what I don't know, and decide if it's relevant or not. It's really helpful when diving into new topics, because it gives you a starting point.
I would never send something to a real human that a LLM composed without me, I still want to write and decide everything 100% myself, but I use more LLMs as a powerful search engine where you can put synonyms or questions and get somewhat fine answers from it.
This will always happen, especially if you don't have health insurance. I had to have surgery without insurance in the early 2000s, and I was able to knock off a large percentage of the bill (don't remember how much, it's been decades) by literally just writing back to the hospital and asking them to double check and verify the line items I was being charged.
(edit: more stories along similar lines in this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45735136)
But you better believe that hospitals all over the place are also using AI to find ways around Medicare/Insurance rules to maximize their profit too.
The rules are probably going to get WAY more complex because they will rely less on a few humans, and more on very powerful AIs.
Poker has nothing on Commercial Lawfare.
People keep trying to enact rules to stick it to the elites and make the downtrodden better off.
And as the rules get more and more complex, the position of the elites gets more and more solid.
I really don't get people who see this kind of thing as empowering because in the end your (now strictly necessary) appeal with lawyers or AI to get a more fair deal just becomes a new tax on your time/money; you are worse off than before. A good capitalist will notice these dynamics, and invest in AI once it's as required for life as healthcare is, and then work on driving up the costs of AI. Big win for someone but not the downtrodden.
It's like auditting tax returns of the rich - of course they didn't cheat, they already lobbied for the loopholes making their shenanigans legal.
The IRS disagrees every single year.
They say they can easily recover significant revenue from tax cheats if they were staffed and funded enough, to the point that every dollar you fund the IRS recovers 1.6 dollars.
The rich people who say they are just getting their fair deductions then refuse to fund the IRS.
If they weren't cheating, they wouldn't have to kneecap the IRS.
Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.
Yes, because, there is an entire department _dedicated_ to this function. You just call them and say "I can't pay this" and you'll get the same result.
What exactly do you think negotiating is? Real negotiation in business transactions is more often based on agreements around certain facts than emotional manipulation.
I'm a cofounder of Turquoise Health and this is all we do, all day. Our purpose is to make it really easy to know the entire, all-in, upfront cost of a complex healthcare encounter under any insurance plan. You can see upfront bills for many procedures paid by various healthcare plans on our website.
The information posted in the thread is generally correct. Hospitals have fictional list prices and they on average only expect to collect ~30% of that list price from commercial insurance plans. For Medicare patients, they collect around 15%. The amount the user finally settled for was ~15% of the billed amount, so it all checks out.
The reason for fictional list prices (like everything in US healthcare) is historical, but that doesn't make it any more logical. Many hospital insurance contracts are written as "insurer will pay X% of hospital's billed charges for Y treatment" where X% is a number like 30. No one is 'supposed' to pay anywhere near the list price. Yes, this is a terrible way to do things. Yes, there are shenanigans with logging expected price reductions are 'charity' for tax purposes. But there isn't a single bad guy here. The whole system that is a mess on all sides.
Part of the problem is that the US healthcare billing system is incredibly complex. Billing is as granular as possible. It's like paying for a burger at a restaurant by paying for separate line items like the sesame seeds on the bun, the flour in the bun, the employee time to set the bun on the burger, the level of experience of the bun-setter (was it a Dr. Bun Setter or an RN bun setter?), etc. But like the user said, some of these granular charges get rolled up into a fixed rate for the main service.
However, the roll-up rules are different for every insurance contract. So saying the hospital 'billed them twice' is only maybe true. The answer would be different based on the patient's specific insurance plan and how that insurance company negotiated it. Hospitals often have little idea how much they will get paid to do X service before it happens. They just bill the insurance company and see what comes back. When a patient comes in without insurance, they don't know how to estimate the bill since there is no insurance agreement to follow. So they start from the imaginary list prices and send the patient an astronomically high bill, expecting it to be negotiated down. In some areas, there are now laws like 'you can't charge an uninsured patient more than your highest negotiated insurance rate' but these are not universal.
If you find yourself in this situation, there are good charities like 'Dollar For' that can help patients negotiate this bill down for you. We are trying to address this complexity with software and have made a lot of progress, but there is much more to do. The government has legislation (the No Surprises Act) that requires hospitals to provide upfront estimates and enter mediation if the bill varies more than $400 from that amount. But some parts of the law don't have an enforcement date set yet, which we hope changes soon.
EDIT: adding in a link to 'Dollar For'.
Which is a great description of the American health care industry, even before its involvement with AI in any capacity.
I just did this with a pet insurance bill, and ChatGPT was very helpful. They denied based on the pre-existing condition exclusion even where it was obviously not valid (my dog chipped her tooth severely enough to need a root canal, and they denied because years before when she wasn't covered under the policy, she had chipped the same tooth in a minor, completely cosmetic way).
I was sure they were in the wrong and would've written a demand letter even in the pre-AI days, but ChatGPT helped me articulate it in a way that made me sound vastly more competent than the average consumer threatening a lawsuit. It helped make my language as legally formal as possible, and it gave me specific statutes around what comprises a pre-existing condition in CA as well as case law that placed very high standards on insurers seeking to decline coverage by invoking an exclusion (yes I checked, and they were real cases that said what it thought they said).
Gave them fourteen days to reverse the denial before I filed in small claims court, and on day fourteen got a letter informing me that the claim would be paid in full. It's of basically no cost to them to deny even remotely borderline cases, so you have to make them believe that you will use the court system or whatever other escalation paths there are to impose costs, and LLMs are great for that.
I'd be interested to hear from a charge coding expert about Claude's analysis here and if it was accurate or not. There's also some free mixing of "medicare" v.s. "insurance" which often have very different billing rates. The author says they don't want to pay more than insurance would pay - but insurance pays a lot more than medicare in most cases.
It's pretty clear that even access to a potentially buggy and unreliable expert is very helpful. Whatever else AI does I hope it chips away at how institutions use lengthy standards and expertise barriers to make it difficult for people to contest unfair charges.