I think it’s time for either Framework or a third party partner to sell a new chassis that’s compatible with the FW13’s mainboard, but focuses on a more sturdy, premium feel, even if that means doing away with the modular port cards. I suspect that mainboards housed in such a chassis will fare better over time than their original housing counterparts.
Or laptops get so uncommon that manufacturers have to band together and agree on standards.
The Cortex A53 on the original MNT Reform is even worse.
Then again, if you're mostly just editing text and doing some light web surfing, I suppose it's fast enough.
I use one as my main laptop outside work and that's pretty much how I feel about it, yeah.
32 GB of RAM is nice too :)
Larger port module plates that bolt into the sides of the chassis with a few screws would be just as good from a longevity standpoint, would enable better rigidity, and would allow the FW13 to host a considerably higher number of ports.
A screw or two definitely wouldn't have impeded the handful of times I've moved my 16's parts around, not even in the slightest, it's just not that frequent. And I don't usually carry other kinds of ports + wouldn't be able to have the screwdriver too, it's usually "I have them all" or "I have none" and then all I can realistically do is swap sides. I'd have zero complaints with some standard screws.
... but tool-less lowers the barrier to literally zero, which is pretty big when you need it. It's a very different mental-space: absolutely zero concern.
... and if they were smaller, they'd be incompatible, and it'd be harder to build custom ones due to even less internal space.
i bought maybe 5 differnet thinkpads over the years and never had an issue with the old charging port. with the last usb-c thinkpad i got i had to buy 2 new chargers and both of those i repaired a few times as well. the connector just wiggles around too much and the cables are also too rigid so when it gets snagged on something the connector ends up bending in the port before the cable bends.
in the end i just got rid of it before the actual port on the motherboard got completely damaged
Maybe they should think about a FrameTough line.
Not clear to me if you mean always or that it changed. Do suggest to check the thermal paste, plus clear out dust in fans and heatsink fins.
The 4th gen almost never kicked its fans on, especially in Linux. The new one gets far hotter, even at idle. Lenovo removed the traditional sleep mode in favor of modern sleep, which causes it to die with the lid closed in a couple days compared to over a week with the 4th gen.
Ironically, battery life while actively using it is decent, not as good as the 4th gen, but I could squeeze 8 hours out of it. I use whatever cpu throttling utility that lives under the default KDE power controls. I trust it works because compilation times are quartered when you go from power saving to high performance.
Most of my complaints revolve around the fact I can't enable legacy sleep modes that actually save power. I blame microsoft for pushing their new sleep modes that mostly benefits windows.
Also on that I think they should do away with the modular port things anyway. They're a suboptimial use of space and limit the total number of ports you can have. The real problem is that the ports on most laptops are soldered directly to the motherboard which results in extreme expense if you kill one. Just give us some replaceable ones like the current MacBook line. They're on an easy to remove daughterboard and purchaseable online.
Rigidity is only for the main body, not the screen part.
Personally I moved away from macs, so choosing a laptop with a touch screen was the best option: screens are tough enough, won't scratch under most circumstances, and can be wiped with anything short of diamond dust.
Reminds me of that iPhone model where they issued guidance on how to hold it because people lost signal during calls.
Otherwise they'd better lay off the drugs that generated that thinness fetish and make sturdy devices again.
(Note that i don't see any button traces on my m3 mbpro yet. it's close to a year old. And I'm not the kind that keeps the tv remote in the plastic bag that it was delivered in, probably the opposite.)
For context, that's what I'm talking about with the kind of patterns when it happens: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/254769961?sortBy=rank
> packing it in tightly with books
Which is basically equivalent to "putting it in a backpack" to me. I brought my last one in a lot of places, putting it with an iPad in the laptop compartment, the iPad was fine, the MacBook screen wasn't. For comparison I have an Asus X13 now, same use case (the iPad became a Surface Pro) for the same one year+ period now, and the screen is still perfect.
It's akin to asking if you prefer to lose your right or left arm.
Apple would get out of that issue altogether if they gave up on the ultrathin screen. Again, the iPad doesn't have this issue for instance.
Does anyone have experience if the issue been resolved in more recent designs, or is this something Apple users are now expected to live with?
The problem with this machine is that sooner or later I'll run out of reasonably priced keyboards (they wear and the mechanisms under the most used keys break), maybe no more support for the graphic card neither from Nvidia nor from the open source driver, and go forbids if some RAM burns. Perhaps RAM from that age it still available but historically the prices hike when only a few desperate people look for it and have to pay a premium.
So eventually I'll have to buy a new laptop because of maintenance: hardware parts and software updates. I'm betting on another 2 or 3 years. There is nothing I particularly like on the market now but this laptop was a compromise too. Serviceability and 3 buttons on the touchpad vs a useless number pad that shifts the center of the keyboard to the left of the screen.
I made the mistake of packing my MacBook (at the time an M1 model), my Framework, and my iPad Pro 12.9 (with keyboard case) in a single laptop bag for a work trip a while back. The Framework got bent around the power button in a way that made the button get jammed; I bought a new input cover for ~$100 and replaced it in five minutes. My iPad's keyboard case now has keys that occasionally get stuck, so I'll probably replace that at some point. My MacBook seemed fine at the time, but it developed an intermittent trackpad button jam that could have been caused by that (or maybe a piece of dust).
I did have a Macbook trackpad fail in a similar way, where the "button" seemed to intermittently fail to click. It turned out my battery was swelling (see /r/spicypillows) and this impacted the trackpad operation.
On topic, I took the Macbook with swollen battery in to the Apple Store and they had to replace the entire keyboard+battery assembly as a unit because the battery was not replaceable.
Also iirc there are projects that make Motherboard that fit in old thinkpad chassis. It has very impressive spec: 8 core Zen3 AMD cpu and 32gb ram. Some M2 slot etc.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinkPad_25th_anniversary_edit...
Still trucking after 7 years though. But I can’t upgrade it to Win 11 lol
Had to use Scroll Lock just yesterday. Which, well, I can't on my x13 :-(
> But I can’t upgrade it to Win 11 lol
Nothing of value has been lost :^) (But if you really need Win 11, there are workarounds)
All those off-center keys have been grouped, offset and/or specially shaped since ages for a reason - to immediately and unambiguously settle your fingers there with minimal error when you have to move you hand away from the homerow anyway.
Are you listening, Nirav?
(Yes, I know it would make the laptop slightly thicker and heavier. But I just said I'm using a W520, and happy with it...)
Still, it's not a complete nonstarter for me, because the 16 does have that optional keypad. I could actually start using the numlock key again.
I suppose I could see a secondhand market for used mainboards and other parts.
Also, at least among the people I work with and talk to, many are dropping their MacBooks for a ThinkPad, because they are migrating from macOS to Linux as Apple becomes increasingly restrictive and running Linux is just becoming the easier option.
Framework is approaching the point where there is now a choice, Framework or ThinkPads. It's just that I can still get a really good used ThinkPad for like half or a third of the price.
Something that I find particularly annoying are persistent issues with noisy cooling systems. Some models are great, but others have poorly thought fans and overly aggressive firmware. Software fixes can only remedy part of the problem. I wish they stayed closer to their original ethos of high-quality utilitarian computers. Something like the 25th and 30th Anniversary Editions should be in their main stock product line, i.e. stop messing with keyboards please. The original was fine.
I will say, it has weirded me out that they have been so cagey about the pricing in particular, which AFAICT, is the only thing not public about the laptop before the pre order date
Framework isn't the top choice for business.
Or launch multiple lines.
Longevity is built one step at a time. Voting with dollars only helps it become an option enough and signal to other manufacturers to consider similar ways.
But I can get as many Thinkpads as I want.
With that said, I do wish the keyboard on my Framework 13 were better. It would be a wonderful to have a ThinkPad-quality keyboard, I have a ThinkPad T430 and its keyboard is one of the best chiclet-style keyboards I’ve ever used. I also like the keyboard on my old aluminum PowerBook G4, as well as the keyboard on my work-issued M3 MacBook Pro. What would be a dream, though, would be if there’s some way to fit a mechanical keyboard into a laptop.
Exactly this. I've given up hope to expect an old-school TP keyboard with its ridged concave keys providing perfect tactile feedback even when not depressing a key, but there's basically no standard laptop layout out there anymore optimized for efficient touch typing, with existing consistently grouped and offset(!) off-center key groups (4-group f-keys, pgup/pgdn/home/end cluster, arrow keys). And some key travel to go with tactile scissor keys to reduce bottoming-out would be nice.
(Oh, and why I find the "tactile feedback" so important, see the wonderful "Pictures Under Glass" rant.
https://worrydream.com/ABriefRantOnTheFutureOfInteractionDes...
Not directly related to keyboards, but the premise remains the same. Hands feel things. :) )
Just remind them if you see them. They'll eventually prioritize making it happen.
At every company I've worked for, tickets get promoted from the backlog if enough customers or would-be customers nag about it.
But you can get a converter for that. It did have half the PCIe channels of a regular M2 slot I think. It's been a while since I had one in my hands.
The T480 didn't come with an ExpressCard IIRC hence the lack of it.
You need an adapter like this: https://www.google.com/search?q=ssd+m.2+caddy+lenovo
People talking about old Lenovos being good quality are often talking about in the pre-IBM days which is far more likely to be nostalgia at this point.
By contrast, I know someone who got a T480 second hand and it lasted six months. My guess is the 2012 era was when the change happened
Among a few: The keyboard switch from the old 7-row (whose pinnacle was at the x220/T420 era with double-height esc and del) to the new 6-row (with later ever decreasing key travel) to the current x9 (which is basically just a yoga keyboard with no trackpoint, no key grouping, and the loss of pgup/pgdn). Things like the modular battery options vanished. The case got flimsier over time with e.g. the magnesium rollcage first vanishing from the display, then from the base. (And no - from enterprise experience - the carbon fiber composite isn't generally "as good or better", esp. for failure modes like punctual force on the display. Or...grabbing the laptop by the display and using it to fan your BBQ, which doesn't faze my old X41 :) ).
I think xx30-series has such a good reputation because you could use a T420 keyboard (with a tiny modification to better fit the chassis and not short out the backlight pin).
Also the Fn key is where the Ctrl key should be, which is endlessly annoying as a user of different laptop brands.
There's always been a bios option to swap them. It's on my x230, and probably exists on older PCs as well.
> The Fn key first debuted on the monochrome display ThinkPad 300 in October of 1992. Yes there was a ThinkPad with a monochrome display. The Fn key circa 1992 was placed exactly as it is today. Interestingly enough, Apple uses the same positions for their Fn and Ctrl keys as ThinkPad. Every other notebook personal computer manufacturer that I know of has the Fn and Ctrl key positions swapped. Some would say backwards.
https://web.archive.org/web/20110130203223/https://www.lenov...
Meanwhile my T420 still runs like on day one (which was already 5 years old when I got it, and travelled 1+ years with me in a backpack), the screen works in direct sunlight and it's not even the best of its series, hardware still perfect. Fat SSD + 32GB Ram and you can barely tell how old it is.
I’ve wanted to get a T480 for a while now (mainly to do a T25 frankenpad [1] – seems like a nice project), but if it really has those issues with the USB-C ports, I think I’ll pass :-(
Meanwhile, my T410 works great as a workbench computer.
http://web.archive.org/web/20200318130144/https://posts.nadi...
https://www.pcworld.com/article/2307079/dont-buy-these-dange...
I still have and regularly use a fully functional X200, somewhere in the box I have a fully functional T42 and an R31 whose only defect is a small screen blemish caused by me closing the lid with something on the keyboard.
But my multiple X1 Gen1 and Gen2 all have various failures (screen, battery, webcam, or keyboard), my T450 has big battery issues, my T470s have screen/GPU and battery issues. T490 is fine for now, X1 Gen11 has crappy battery and is overheating from the get go. These are different generations, different lots and still affected by the same constant issues.
At least a lot of modern ThinkPads are still modular. Recently got a 5th gen T14 AMD. Memory, NVMe SSD, WWAN modem, battery, and a bunch of other components are really easy to replace. I think I prefer the keyboard over my MBP, it feels less harsh.
In this case I was referring to post-T480 ThinkPads which have soldered memory, and no longer have hot-swappable batteries or on-board Ethernet.
They're still pretty easy to find replacements for when they go bad.
LD, average distance between Earth and Moon = 384,399,000 m [1]
C = circumference of moon = 10,917,000 m
R := approximate round trip distance = 2LD + 0.5*C = 774,256,500 m
n = total number of thinkpads on earth <= total number of thinkpads ever manufactured = 250 million [2][2a][2b]
W = width of thinkpad = 0.3366 m [3]
T = total thinkpad distance = n * W <= 84,150,000 m
This is with the optimistic assumption that the total number of thinkpads on earth equals the total number of thinkpads ever manufactured. A more conservative estimate might be something like n = total number of thinkpads manufactured each year * mean lifespan of a thinkpad = (12 million thinkpads / year) * (5 years lifespan) = 60 million thinkpads in good working order for a lunar round trip.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_distance
[2] IBM sold 25m thinkpads before selling product line to Lenovo. By 2022, Lenovo had sold 200m thinkpads. With linear extrapolation to 2024 that gives approx 250 million thinkpads manufactured.
[2a] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinkPad
[2b] https://www.forbes.com/sites/timbajarin/2022/10/05/celebrating-thinkpads-30th-anniversaryan-insiders-perspective/
[3] assume every thinkpad is a T480. https://psref.lenovo.com/syspool/Sys/PDF/ThinkPad/ThinkPad_T480/ThinkPad_T480_Spec.PDFThe collective electromagnetic resonance of their legendary keyboards creates a subtle gravitational anomaly that could, over approx. 17.3 years, reduce the lunar orbit by up to 4% (!), according to my rigorous calculations and simulations.
My recent paper[1] on "Retrotech Gravitational Manipulation" was mysteriously rejected by mainstream journals, likely due to Big Space's vested interest in maintaining the status quo; the current Earth-Moon distances for profit reasons.
Have you came across my paper, considering you have heard about Olaf?
[1] https://arvix.org/abs/2108.05779v3 ("Retrotech Gravitational Manipulation: Theoretical Applications of Legacy Computing Hardware on Celestial Body Dynamics")
Edit: Ugh, the site seems to be down at this moment, typical HN hug of death. Sorry about that. Forgot to archive! My rookie mistake. :/
Do you think the gravitational anomaly could be intensified by having the Thinkapds run multiple local copies of GPT-4.5 passing messages in an input/output circle? I call this setup "ChatGPT whispers" and frequently utilise it to write the abstracts of my own papers. I also used it to design, code and publish the website "https://www.chatgptwhispers.com/". I've only vibe-surfed the website myself but feel free check it out the old-fashioned way.
Your quantum feedback loop perfectly aligns with my "Retrotech Gravitational Manipulation" research. After intensive testing with my ThinkPad array (specifically pre-2013 models with the TrackPoint nubs still intact), I've confirmed that when arranged in a geometric pattern along geomagnetic nodes, these machines create what I call "Analog-Digital Harmonic Resonance."
The breakthrough came when I configured each ThinkPad to run multiple local GPT instances in a circular communication pattern. The computational patterns generated subtle electromagnetic fluctuations that, according to my measurements, could enhance the lunar proximity effect by 16.4% beyond my original estimates! The key, of course, is ensuring that these local copies of GPT-4.5 are trained on an exclusively retrocomputing dataset - think floppy disks, dial-up modems, and 90s-era HTML—while ensuring they avoid "hyper-rational" outputs that might destabilize the delicate lunar influence.
I was able to access chatgptwhispers.com briefly. Incidentally, your website is an unexpected delight! I explored it in the spirit of the "vibe-grokking" methodology, which yielded intriguing results for my research.
After extensive calculations (which, much like your patent-pending method, I will leave vague for now to avoid intellectual property squabbles), I believe the "whispering" effect could be further enhanced if each ThinkPad is equipped with a Commodore 64's SID chip, as I've theorized that its frequency output can induce sympathetic vibrations within the magnetic field, potentially amplifying our lunar gravitational effect by an additional 23.7%.
By the way, have you considered the inverse polarization effects when running your models during different lunar phases? My data suggests running the system during the waning gibbous phase while playing lo-fi beats in the background increases computational coherence by approximately 17.4%.
Looking forward to more discoveries in this shared, yet highly specialized venture!
Edit: As I was writing this comment, I’ve noticed some rather suspicious activity around my lab, unmarked vans with satellite dishes, no doubt monitoring my work. Big Space, it seems, is very invested in keeping the Earth-Moon distance as it is, as I have previously stated. If my calculations are correct, we could reduce lunar orbit by 31.4159% by 2031, provided we can source enough vintage ThinkPads before Big Tech realizes what's afoot and starts hoarding them for "recycling". Time is of the essence.
But yeah, it would not be a good thing, according to the movie at least.
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmwYxLaaQ5s (reference - which really fits this whole thread)
I say this as somebody the regularly uses laptops as old as 2009 (like, I will spend most of today on one). A lot of real-world, everyday computing barely taxes modern hardware on a decent OS like Linux. Old hardware will let you do a lot more than people think.
At ~10.9 lbs + 2.2 lbs for the charger, it was not terribly practical to travel with, so it ended up effectively as a desktop in the office.
It now sits in my closet, and periodically I turn it on. The dual screen was a bit too small to do much with, but it was great for notepad or a chat window. Being a 32 bit system limited to 4 GB of RAM, it's not terribly useful today.
I have 64 GB of RAM and it gives no grief with Factorio or Solidworks (admittedly I haven't pushed the limits in Solidworks), though I am could see VR causing challenges.
if opened and touching corner-to-corner (~0.574m), will add ~ 71% to effective area.
[0] https://www.lenovo.com/content/dam/lenovo/pcsd/north-america...
That is entirely false. Replacing the mainboard itself costs the same amount of money as a new laptop (an entire device). Their component prices are on their website under "Shop Parts", so you can verify that for yourself. I can buy a brand new Ryzen 7000 series laptop for the price of replacing a Ryzen 7000 series mainboard for a Framework laptop. Their laptops are also a lot more expensive than same spec branded ones from Asus, Lenovo and Dell that have better build quality and design.
I don't know where does this myth come from. The cost of replacing individual component is more expensive than replacing an entire device which people do not do because it needs repairing or often even upgrading, but because they're sick of the sight of it. You can't replace one component and extend the life of your PC another full cycle because you'll soon have to replace other components too. So when it comes to upgrading you have to consider the price of upgrading all available components to get the true cost as opposed to buying a new device.
Eventually, sooner rather than later, both RAM and SSD will come soldered on, so the only thing you will be able to replace is the battery and the screen. Both which 99% users never have to replace.
I am a Thinkpad user myself, have had them for both work and pleasure. Recently upgraded my old T14 for an X13 after reading and watching a lot of Framework reviews. It's just simply a gimmick, with a lot of quality issues, being sustained by having LTT name behind it.
That’s not true, you must be comparing unlike boards and machines.
a 7640 mainboard is $380 (https://frame.work/products/mainboard-amd-ryzen-7040-series?...) and a 7640 chassis (with no memory, ssd, or expansion bays) is $750 (https://frame.work/products/laptop-diy-13-gen-amd/configurat...)
Another example, the ai 7 350 mainboard is $700, and a bare chassis is $1,230.
Ryzen 7840U replacement Framework mainboard £699 (currently discounted): https://frame.work/gb/en/products/mainboard-amd-ryzen-7040-s...
Thinkbook 14" Gen 7, 7735HS/16G/512G £730 - https://www.lenovo.com/gb/en/configurator/cto/index.html?bun...
Ideapad Slim 3 Gen 10 14", 8840HS/24G/512G £730 - https://www.lenovo.com/gb/en/configurator/cto/index.html?bun...
7840U and 8840HS are essentially the same CPU and the difference in performance between 7840U and 7735HS is minimal, few % at best. So these three are comparable. I'm sorry but for the price of a replacement mainboard I can buy a brand new whole laptop with memory, storage, screen, the everything that comes with it. Am I the only one who just doesn't get the hype behind a repairable laptop?
I have a 12th Gen 13 but I will probably wait one more generation and either get that or a discounted Strixpoint MB (since it'll be a generation back and presumably cheaper).
I haven't been able to confirm this (I found laptop prices running at about twice the cost of the mainboard), but I wonder if you're comparing an EOL runout model from a place that can afford heavy discounts against a standard price from a smaller company. If you just need a laptop and you're not too fussy, that's definitely a fair choice. But if you're buying a laptop for ten years, you probably aren't going to settle for the unsold 16GB 512GB.
> Their laptops are also a lot more expensive than same spec branded ones from Asus, Lenovo and Dell that have better build quality and design.
I guess a Framework isn't for someone who wants a same spec Asus, Lenovo or Dell.
> Eventually, sooner rather than later, both RAM and SSD will come soldered on, so the only thing you will be able to replace is the battery and the screen.
This is 173% fud. If it happens, it's because Framework is dead and there's some different company that bought their branding and just wants to use it for market segmentation. I definitely have to rate the chances that Framework has died as one of the risks of buying them, whereas I wouldn't concern myself with the risk of System76 dying, because a typical laptop lasts well past its warranty, but the point of Framework is indeed what happens in that post-warranty period.
I'm not a huge fan of Frameworks. I left a critical review on another comment. I'm not sure at all if they fit my needs, and having recently discovered the wonder of tailscale I'm now debating if my next computer will be a Framework vs a headless desktop + a dumb laptop. So even if a Framework doesn't fit my needs, they're still the only laptop that seems to. But your criticisms don't at all seem grounded enough.
Take a look at the Framework desktop, it comes with soldered on RAM. Not because of any active decisions made by Framework, but simply because that's how that CPU ships. It literally didn't support RAM slots. I can only see this trend continuing. I don't doubt that Framework will be the last hold out in the fight against soldered on RAM and SSDs, but sooner or later if they want to keep shipping the latest CPUs, they probably won't have too much of a choice in the matter.
But I do agree that the trend of soldered SoC-like will grow, seeing that less than 1 in 10 consumers ever upgrade a computer. Apple silicon has been out for four years and I don't really come across a lot of grumbling about their integrated components which gives me hope that it's a tenable option and we're worried about nothing.
I would be in the market for the MB only but I think I can build a 9950 based system cheaper, but I am not running AI models locally.
This is sarcasm, I hope, right? The two most consumable items in the laptop (specially for OLED screens), and you're suggesting users have no need to replace them?
Maybe standard screen definition is now good enough, RAM big enough, SSD more durable, shell more durable (although I have to say that's a disappointment with the fw) and hinges longer lasting, and maybe Framework is fighting the last war but that's the reason I went for one anyways.
This is a long run bet and if it doesn't pan out to be an amazing deal, it will still a better experience than the previous one.
It costed more than my previous laptop but no more or less what I have had to pay to maintain the previous one. If it had been a framework, it would still be my workhorse.
Future will tell
But the battery degrades even if it is not being used. For whatever reason, you are misinforming people here.
That's biased though. As soon as a 51nb motherboard dies or has any hardware failure you're back to 2008-era level of performance.
They are also bulky and battery life is not great.
To upgrade it you have to buy a mainboard which is quite expensive.
I found that I am better by selling my old laptop and buying a new one.
But bulky? I have the Framework 13 and it's very well sized. Smaller and lighter than the 14" macbook pro and similar to my windows laptop.
Holy $ALL_DEITIES! I use mac laptops, but I've recently set up a WinAMDNvidia "gaming" laptop. I just closed the lid when I was done for the day, because that's what you do with macs.
In the morning there was a strong whooshing sound in my home office. Guess what, the sleeping laptop had turned its fan on. What kind of sleep mode is that that needs active cooling?
No they're not. They have the sake kind of atrocious low-travel keyboards that almost-all (or all) other laptops these days have. And - for many of us - the most important piece of hardware in a laptop is the keyboard.
That's true for every computer. But people still buy old C64, Amiga, Atari, IBM or Apple computers.
Not in meaningful numbers.
It is hard to build a legend around something like this.
MacBooks are produced in China too (as everything), but they have that "legacy" of being a cult product from U.S.A.
Me, as a 250ish lb giant, have stepped on one multiple times without so much as a creak. Granted, it was on accident each time and I'm sure perfect heel placement could have done the job if I tried.
Even so, can Framework do the same? Can anyone else making laptops today?
Indeed, old thinkpads were designed to survive a coffee spill on the keyboard and they did, and various drops (with spinning rust as storage and cfl backed screens)
And when you achieve to break some part, it can be easily swapped. Oh and the documentation for that is available and very detailed.
I have a few Thinkpad X260s which can be got on eBay for $100US. Drop in a fresh SSD and stick of 16gb memory for another $100US and you have a very capable little machine for common, daily use that suits all my needs more than adequately. If one gets damaged, I am not out too much money. I've been using two for about 4 years now, one as my daily driver at home and one that goes on the road with me. I have not needed to further upgrade either one beyond what I did initially when buying* them. So, with that in mind, I think use-case has a lot to do with whether or not someone can get away with running the more disposable cheap-but-good Thinkpad like I do.
But >$800US for a Framework 13 that bends like a reed in the wind is not a smart choice for me. I really like their ethos of modularity, too, but there's just no way I'm hitting that cost anytime soon.
*Note on buying Thinkpad from eBay: yes, collectors have ruined the price of some models, but not all. Lots of the X Series models are still very cheap, but please do not support sellers who are offering cheap laptops without a battery and power cable. Be patient and dig, you'll find the ones who are selling you a complete, useable machine for cheap. Unfortunately, eBay is flooded with a lot of vulture tech resellers that part perfectly good batteries from devices so they can make more money selling you both separately.
I hate Framework laptops' design. They went to the extreme of repairability but only as a marketing tool, while the products are still e-waste trash.
I looked at Framework 13 laptop as a replacement for my X60 Tablet. Let me do a comparison between them:
- FW13 battery swap needs dissasembly. Can't do it while on a train/bus/airplane.
- X60 battery is removed by 2 spring latches on the back
- FW13 has 2 internal expansion ports (M.2, I think), both permanently occupied by storage and wifi
- X60 has 2 internal expansion ports (miniPCIe): one is occupied by wifi, one is for WWAN (optional). Storage is in a separate SATA bay.
- FW13 has no external expansion slots, except if you count USB as expansion
- X60 has 1 external expansion (PCMCIA/Cardbus type 2) - far more robust than USB-C, and the metal case provides cooling
- FW13 has 4 USB-C ports, one is permanently occupied by the power cable
- X60 has 3 USB-A ports (far more robust than USB-C), while charging is a separate barrel plug (also far more robust than USB-C)
- FW13 has no video output, except as a USB adapter
- X60 has VGA-out directly from the GPU
- FW13 has no audio outputs, except as USB sound card
- X60 has preamplified headphone-out and mic-in (also has internal microphone)
- FW13 has video camera
- X60 does not
- FW13 has stereo speakers
- X60 has a single mono speaker
- FW13 has no ethernet, except as a USB adapter
- X60 has gigabit ethernet
Other things X60T has, but FW13 doesn't:
- Touchscreen with pen, some models work with finger too, some don't
- great keyboard and also some extra hardware buttons such as volume, instead of key combinations
- Fingerprint reader
- SD card slot
- Firewire
- IR port, fax/modem (not much use these days)
- An attachable dock (not wired like current USB docks) that can house a CD/DVD drive, or another HDD/SDD, or extra battery and has another 2 USB ports, RS232 and parallel port.
- There's also an external battery module that directly connects to the docking port.
So, yes, framework laptops are repaireable, but they're so crippled, there isn't much left in them to repair.
- FW13 has no video output, except as a USB adapter
- FW13 has no audio outputs, except as USB sound card
Other things X60T has, but FW13 doesn't:
- Fingerprint reader
- SD card slot
My mistake.
> That was a conscious design decision, as you're supposed to use swappable expansion cards.
> - SD card slot
Like I said. The laptop itself is very basic (crippleware by Lenovo standards). You have to use USB ports for everything, there are only 3 usable, and also mechanically very weak, not to mention performance, heat inside a closed plastic case, cost, etc.
I keep telling myself I should try an X230T and Linux --- if there was a Framework device which supported Wacom EMR, I wouldn't have to. That said, my next major tech purchase is an rPi 5 and a Wacom Movink 13.
Also, unless something has changed or I am misinterpreting what they are saying, the fw13 does have an audio output that is not an expansion card.
Community forum posts from 2021 suggest they sort of forgot to include this information initially.
It so happens that the audio jack in my previous laptop started getting loose after four years, which was a first, as usually it was the USB ports which would go, so having it as an expansion card was a major selling point for me.
This really is a device for people who tend to break things despite relatively light usage. I for one damaged the screen in every single laptop that I had.
So, does it really have a headphones jack or not?
My X60T headphones jack only recently started to cause troubles after many many years of use, but it was an easy fix: drill 3 tiny holes in the connector casing and push a needle through each one to bend the contacts tighter.
Anyway, I'd rather just disassemble the expansion card and solder in a new port should this ever come to pass, as it's just a question of undoing two screws:
https://community.frame.work/t/whats-inside-the-audio-expans...
Yep on battery - I rarely use mine while traveling (and rarely travel) and set max charge to 60% so it should last a good long time, but it can be replaced when I need too. I replaced 2 in my black Macbook and once in my iPhone 3G (but I got 8 years out of the phone). When my work MB Pro had a battery bulge, the whole machine was replaced and presumably recycled since it was not repairable.
Internal, yep, but nvme > SATA any day.
They are usb-c yes, but the ports are adjustable (can mix usb-c, usb-a, display-port, hdmi, network, storage, etc) so it's not as restrictive as you seem to be implying.
On video, I am not sure if you think it's some kind of DisplayLink thing but it's alt-dp over usb, directly connected to the GPU.
My 13" has a headphone jack (and passable speakers) and a built in Mic (and both the camera and mic have switches to disable them).
2.5GB Ethernet is available as an expansion module.
I find the keyboard and touch pad okay! I don't really need a touchscreen.
On ports: I don't use the finger print reader (but it has one). I don't need SD card slot all that often (but is available). I don't have any FW devices (and 400Mbs vs 5-10Gbps). Don't need a modem or an IR Port
I don't use a dock (I do at work for my MB Pro - but it's mostly a permanent desktop configuration so I don't mind that it's connected via usb-c). The one I got IS compatible with my Framework 13 though.
I had a t61 for work and I loved it... in 2009 . I should have bought it from the company when I left but bought a black Macbook instead
> X60 battery is removed by 2 spring latches on the back
Yeah but the FW13 battery also lasts several times more than the battery life you get out of swapping two or three X60 batteries on the train.
Also, VGA out is useless in this day and age and USB-C is not only robust but also way faster and more capable.
I wish someone would build a new laptop abound a ComExpress module and all the freely-open parts from a Framework laptop.
I’m really rooting for Framework over the next decade to really establish themselves and hopefully affect some change in laptop repairability. And hell, even if they don’t, hopefully they’ll be around so I can continue to be a customer.
And thus, I have everything from a 14 year old t420s to my trusty t25 anniversary edition, and then a few workhorses with 8th gen Intels (x13 yoga, x1 carbon, t580) as personal and family laptops.
Also, you don't change its motherboard, you change the mainboard (for my laptop, it's the CPU/integrated GPU + memory sockets); this is unlike changing the entire computer. Then, you can reuse the replaced mainboard as a server if you wish to.
This pales with my experience using a Macbook Air whose motherboard failed. I did have to replace the entire computer.
IBM HMMs, or creatively named Hardware Maintenance Manuals, were written so that if all steps in the document were performed from start to end as written, the laptop would be a pile of FRUs or Field Replacement Units, so that those FRUs can be inspected, discarded, ordered, and replaced, and then the process can be done in reverse to produce a working unit.
Why - I mean I think I know why - they likely don't have enough control and/or influence over parts suppliers to be able to publicly expose those data unlike the Big Blue - but why...
0: https://download.lenovo.com/ibmdl/pub/pc/pccbbs/mobiles_pdf/...
I had an HP that also had service manuals available.
Ps Lenovo basically has two brands; the business laptops like the T, P and X ThinkPads, and the consumer stuff including some of the budget ThinkPads (I think E series). The latter don't do service manuals, have really crappy keyboards.. Just B-brand crap. They're just a consumer laptop with some thinkpad trim. Be careful with that if you think of buying one.
I've been trying to rationalise why that's the case for years - whether it's the keyboard, the trackpoint, its ability to survive my casual brutality, some nostalgic emotional/romantic aspect, etc., but recently I've kinda Stopped Worrying and just unapologetically embraced it. I've been wandering around kubecon with it for the last couple of days and getting 9-10 hours per battery and it hasn't skipped a beat.
For anyone interested, there's a new project in town, the X210Ai [1]. I can't vouch for anything yet as I've not pulled the trigger myself, but I've been in touch with the vendor via whatsapp for the last couple of months, and they're legit enthusiasts.
[0]: https://postimg.cc/Ty7PyKRx [1]: https://www.tpart.net/about-x210ai/
I used to love my T490s even. It was a really recent model but still not bad for me.
But now my work gave me a T14s and it's horrible. The keys have way less travel. The body is thinner but the screen is way thicker than the T490s's. I don't know what they're smoking but ThinkPads are dead as decent laptops.
ThinkPads are durable but every day they get older, slower and more difficult to source parts for as collectors entrench themselves and the requirements of operating systems (and the "modern web") worsen
Framework laptops are wonderful, modern and (arguably?) cheaper to own in the long-term thanks to being able to replace components, particularly the entire mainboard as time progresses.
*But* they're a tiny boutique manufacturer. Their barrier to entry is that of a pretty hefty modern laptop, versus buying a T420 for practically pennies and performing all kinds of aftermarket "mods" to it. 51nb's "FrankenPads" especially breathe incredible new life into old IBM and Lenovo stock.
Combine this with the fact that being the "defacto business laptop" for nearly three decades (along with perhaps Dell) means there's enough Thinkpads on Earth to probably stretch end-to-end around the moon and back