News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by ethbr1 on Monday June 10, 2024 @03:32PM (#40637674)
> I always saw this level of personal intelligence to come about at some point, but I didn’t expect Apple to hit it out of the park so strongly. Benefit of drawing people into their ecosystem.

It's the benefit of how Apple does product ownership. In contrast to Google and Microsoft.

I hadn't considered it, but AI convergence is going to lay bare organizational deficiencies in a way previous revolutions didn't.

Nobody wants a GenAI feature that works in Gmail, a different one that works in Messages, etc. -- they want a platform capability that works anywhere they use text.

I'm not sure either Google or Microsoft are organizationally-capable of delivering that, at this point.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by epolanski on Monday June 10, 2024 @03:34PM (#40637700)
Why wouldn't Microsoft be able to?

Anyway, while I see all of your points, none of the things I've read in the news make me excited. Recapping meetings or long emails or suggesting how to write are just...not major concerns to me at least.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by dagw on Monday June 10, 2024 @03:48PM (#40637928)
Why wouldn't Microsoft be able to?

Microsoft seems to have lost all internal cohesion and the ability to focus the entire company in one direction. It's just a collection of dozens of small fiefdoms only caring about hitting their own narrow KPIs with no overall strategic vision. Just look at the mess of competing interest that Windows 11 and Edge have turned into.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by ethbr1 on Monday June 10, 2024 @03:52PM (#40637991)
+ Teams, which includes a feature to build entire apps... inside Teams.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by Onawa on Monday June 10, 2024 @04:00PM (#40638106)
Oh God, when my partner started exploring using Power Apps for Teams to build a platform for running a clinical study, I was intrigued... Then horrified as I tried to help her get it setup. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/power-apps/teams/create-fi...
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by ToucanLoucan on Monday June 10, 2024 @04:55PM (#40638969)
Maybe it's just my overly-cynical ass but when the parent comment said Teams+ lets you build apps inside Teams, I physically shuddered.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by ethbr1 on Monday June 10, 2024 @05:14PM (#40639186)
'We call it Apps for Teams Live 365+!'
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by mlinsey on Monday June 10, 2024 @04:55PM (#40638971)
The flip side, is that they would not have been able to execute so well with Azure etc if the Windows org had too much of a say about pushing Windows as the OS of choice everywhere. Winning in a brand new space, especially one that might be disruptive to other business units, sometimes necessitates letting the new org do its own thing.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by ArchOversight on Monday June 10, 2024 @07:01PM (#40640262)
"execute" and "well" in the same sentence when referring to Azure is a bit weird to see.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by tstrimple on Monday June 10, 2024 @09:22PM (#40641254)
Only to the ignorant. Tens of billions of dollars a year are spent on the platform. Either all of those customers are misinformed about the capabilities of Azure or you are. I’m going to rely Occam’s Razor here.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by __MatrixMan__ on Monday June 10, 2024 @05:05PM (#40639084)
Yeah, it's hard to believe that VSCode and Windows are products from the same company. Very different vibes.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by araes on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @03:37PM (#40650547)
Is VS Code the same as Visual Studio? Super confused.

Visual Studio Code, appears to be a code editor with support for C, C#, C++, Fortran, Go, Java, JavaScript, Node.js, Python, Rust, and Julia

Visual Studio, appears to be a code editor with support for 36 languages including C, C++, C++/CLI, Visual Basic .NET, C#, F#, JavaScript, TypeScript, XML, XSLT, HTML, and CSS.

Visual Studio Code, appears to be liked by almost every user and the favorite in a bunch of online polls.

Visual Studio, appears to be unusable junk, widely hated in almost every survey, and unable to even display its own error messages correctly in 2022.

Visual Studio Code is supposedly a "related product" according to Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_Studio#Related_products

How are these related? They seem like Microsoft's internal fiefdoms again.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by __MatrixMan__ on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @11:33PM (#40654199)
Definitely different things, I've used them both. Visual Studio is from before they went on their Microsoft <3 Open Source campaign. It has pricey licenses and is pretty much an ad for .net

It's a traditional windows application. .net/WPF I think. Configured via XML

VSCode is free, an electron app, has a plugin store with lots of niche language plugins. Configured via json.

Surely they're using VSCode to exert influence in their Microsofty way, but it feels much less like a prison.

VSCode still feels like a bit much to me (though of a monster than Visual Studio). I'm pretty happy with helix.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by araes on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @12:27PM (#40659922)
Cool. Thanks. Started in with the newest version of VS 2022 recently for C++, and then find out there's apparently something better in a different internal fiefdom that people actually like.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by vundercind on Monday June 10, 2024 @05:58PM (#40639661)
They can’t even get marketing on the same page, such that they counter-productively confuse the hell out of their customers who might be considering giving them more money.

Quick, what’s “copilot”?

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by prewett on Monday June 10, 2024 @06:25PM (#40639928)
Automates the tedious/boring parts of flying between regions in Microsoft Flight Simulator. On higher difficulty levels, can use voice recognition to accept tasks ("Copilot, we are losing fuel, find the nearest airport we can land at", "Copilot, what is the VFR frequency for the airport?", etc.) Sometimes misunderstands tasks and/or will give erroneous information, to increase fidelity to real-world situations.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by joking on Monday June 10, 2024 @04:07PM (#40638230)
> Why wouldn't Microsoft be able to?

they are irrelevant on the mobile ecosystem, a place where almost all this features are most relevant and useful

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by sunaookami on Monday June 10, 2024 @03:40PM (#40637799)
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by ethbr1 on Monday June 10, 2024 @03:43PM (#40637862)
I've heard Microsoft has gotten better, but I think this still rings true. https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/6jw33z/int...
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by kelsey98765431 on Monday June 10, 2024 @03:39PM (#40637792)
"Anyone serious about software should be making their own hardware - Alan Kay" - Steve Jobs
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by themadturk on Monday June 10, 2024 @06:22PM (#40639898)
>suggesting how to write

As a(n amateur) fiction writer who pays too much for ProWritingAid each year, I'd love to see if this feature is any good for fiction. I take very, very few of PWA's AI-suggested rewrites, but they often help me see my own new version of a bit of prose.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by vjulian on Monday June 10, 2024 @04:34PM (#40638651)
Could you please explain ‘lay bare organisational deficiencies’? I ask without skepticism.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by theshrike79 on Monday June 10, 2024 @04:47PM (#40638842)
Most companies don't have an unified platform they can build this on. And even if they seem to have superficially, the internal organisation is so splintered that it'll never happen.

Like what's going on inside Google, it's getting stupidly political and infighty. If someone tries to build a comprehensive LLM that touches on gmail, youtube, docs, sheets etc, it's going to be an uphill battle.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by Jtsummers on Monday June 10, 2024 @04:59PM (#40639020)
And even if they did, there'd be five competing efforts, two would be good or at least decent, four would be deployed (not the best one though), and all would be replaced in three years.

None of them would work on-device, all would leak your data into the training set.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by theshrike79 on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @12:31AM (#40642359)
And two of them would be killed within a year and/or renamed/rebranded :)
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by matwood on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @02:00AM (#40642951)
And you forgot, if it was Google they would also all have their own internal chat service.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by sakisv on Monday June 10, 2024 @06:09PM (#40639773)
They did do that. Back in 2013-2015 or so. It was called Google Now, and it was a bit like magic.

It showed you contextual cards based on your upcoming trips/appointments/traveling patterns. E.g. Any tube delays on your way home from work. How early you should leave to catch your flight.

This alongside Google Inbox was among the best and most "futuristic" products.

I was glad to see today Apple implementing something similar to both of these.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by simonh on Monday June 10, 2024 @06:29PM (#40639967)
But it was a decent new Google product, hence all the past tenses.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by drcongo on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @05:39AM (#40644289)
Google Then™
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by jbl0ndie on Monday June 10, 2024 @06:39PM (#40640062)
I've always been baffled why those two got canned. They were both really useful.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by camjohnson26 on Monday June 10, 2024 @11:43PM (#40642068)
Canceling Google Inbox was when I started to move off their platform, it was their best product in years and finally got a handle on email chaos, and then they just killed it with no follow up, insane.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by theshrike79 on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @12:32AM (#40642362)
Google Now was actually a great idea, it was the only "social" media I actually understood.

No wonder they killed it.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by dwaite on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @07:08AM (#40644839)
Nothing compared to the fighting between whether the Office team or the Platform team at Microsoft owned the AI 'client' work, if we were back in the Windows 7 days.

There'd be constant sabotage.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by ahmeneeroe-v2 on Monday June 10, 2024 @04:44PM (#40638799)
I assume they mean: expose internal corporate silos/VP-fiefdoms that don't work seamlessly together despite being marketed under the same brand
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by dmix on Monday June 10, 2024 @04:50PM (#40638889)
Google is quite notorious for having this issue from various blog posts and HN comments I've read.

Lots of middle management power groups that would prevent a cohesive top down vision from easily being adopted.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by ljm on Monday June 10, 2024 @05:17PM (#40639221)
The same as any enterprise company. It’s all office politics and bureaucracy.

Make no mistake, Google is Enterprise.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by yen223 on Monday June 10, 2024 @10:05PM (#40641524)
This is the norm, not the exception for big companies.

The more I spend time in mid-large companies, the more I'm amazed that that Apple somehow managed to avoid releasing three different messaging apps that do the same thing.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by drevil-v2 on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @12:09AM (#40654415)
Now it makes sense why Elon Musk trims the fat on his companies ruthlessly and regularly
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by gumby on Monday June 10, 2024 @08:45PM (#40641037)
The phenomenon is called “Conway’s Law”: a product reflects the organizational structure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_law

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by TreetopPlace on Monday June 10, 2024 @04:49PM (#40638874)
"AI convergence is going to lay bare organizational deficiencies in a way previous revolutions didn't`'

Your quote really hit me. I trust Apple to respect my privacy when doing AI, but the thought of Microsoft or Google slurping up all my data to do remote-server AI is abhorrent. I can't see how Microsoft or Google can undo the last 10 years to fix this.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by cchance on Monday June 10, 2024 @06:33PM (#40640007)
Have to agree, apple seems to put a really strong emphasis above all else on your shit is your shit and we don't want to see it.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by m463 on Monday June 10, 2024 @07:36PM (#40640579)
But this is not true. that's the thing.

Apple is very intrusive. Macos phones home all the time. ios gives you zero control (all apps have internet access by default, and you cannot stop it)

Apple uses your data. you should be able to say no.

And as for your data, they do other things too, a different way. Everything goes to icloud by default. I've gotten new devices and boom, it's uploading everything to icloud.

I've seem privacy minded parents say no, but then they get their kid an iphone and all of their stuff goes to icloud.

I think apple should allow a personal you-have-all-your-data icloud.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by sgarland on Monday June 10, 2024 @07:52PM (#40640690)
A key difference is that Apple isn’t then selling the info it has on you to advertisers.

I don’t think any large tech company is morally good, but I trust Apple the most out of the big ones to not do anything nefarious with my info.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by tsunamifury on Monday June 10, 2024 @08:28PM (#40640926)
They absolutely are. And they give it to governments upon request.

Their privacy stories are marketing first.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by itissid on Monday June 10, 2024 @08:44PM (#40641033)
I don't think they sell it like Google or Samsung. For example Apple does not have a location intelligence team dedicated to driving revenue for store brands or targeting users that go there using precise geo location data.

Google and Samsung do.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by jhanschoo on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @12:05AM (#40642207)
Give me a source that they are selling your data, not targeted ads.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by nativeit on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @03:50PM (#40650678)
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by freetanga on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @01:53AM (#40642894)
I _trust_ Google to attempt to do so, and fail sadly along the way…

They went from “Don’t be evil” to a cartoonish “Doctor Evil” character in a decade.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by rootusrootus on Monday June 10, 2024 @08:31PM (#40640945)
They are selling data to advertisers? I would like to know more about that.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by mgiampapa on Monday June 10, 2024 @09:05PM (#40641139)
Google isn't. They are the advertising engine and sell to advertisers for reach, just like Facebook does.

I trust Apple about as far as I can throw them too. They are inherently anti-consumer rights everywhere in their ecosystem. The "Privacy" angle is just PR.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by etempleton on Monday June 10, 2024 @09:59PM (#40641480)
I would say it is PR as much as it is a strategic differentiation. Their business model is too sell products and services directly to consumers. This is different from Microsoft who is selling to businesses who need data protection, but actually want to be able to monitor their employees and Google who wants to leverage your data / behavior to allow advertisers to effectively target you with ads.

None of the big companies expressly sell your information. Not because they are altruistic, but because it is an asset that they want to protect so they can rent to the next person.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by tsunamifury on Monday June 10, 2024 @11:10PM (#40641851)
Yo Apple is an ad company as well now. They do both.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by etempleton on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @12:43AM (#40642430)
They all do a little bit of everything. Google sells devices too, but they are not predominantly a physical device company.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by mgiampapa on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @01:33AM (#40642721)
At 3 trillion Dollars of market cap they are a capitalistic hellscape and do everything in their power to benefit their own interests, which are not yours.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by tsunamifury on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @01:58AM (#40642932)
It’s amazing how many here don’t understand that.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by nativeit on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @03:51PM (#40650709)
There are several very nuanced comments much farther up this chain who clearly do understand that, and lay out their informed reasoning for why they have chosen to use Apple devices for themselves. It’s amazing how many here seem to have ignored them.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by dwaite on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @06:22AM (#40644536)
> And they give it to governments upon request.

So in other words, "companies operating within a nation are expected to abide by the laws of that nation"?

Apple structures their systems to limit the data they can turn over by request, and documents what data they do turn over. What else do you believe they should be doing?

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by tsunamifury on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @11:31AM (#40647438)
Actually under US rule of law you don’t just turn over things upon request.

Much like every other tech company you test the request.

Apple never does.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by nativeit on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @03:48PM (#40650663)
> Apple never does.

Citation needed?

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by cstejerean on Monday June 10, 2024 @10:04PM (#40641512)
None of the tech companies are selling your data to advertisers. They allow advertisers to target people based on the data, but the data itself is never sold. And it would be dumb to sell it because selling targeted ads is a lot more valuable than selling data.

Just about everyone else other than the tech companies are actually selling your data to various brokers, from the DMV to the cellphone companies.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by wcfields on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @01:25AM (#40642672)
> None of the tech companies are selling your data to advertisers.

First-hand account from me that this is not factual at all.

I worked at a major media buyer agency “big 5” in advanced analytics; we were a team of 5-10 data scientists. We got a firehose on behalf of our client, a major movie studio, of search of their titles by zip code from “G”.

On top of that we had clean roomed audience data from “F” of viewers of the ads/trailers who also viewed ads on their set top boxes.

I can go on and on, and yeah, we didn’t see “Joe Smith” level of granularity, it was at Zip code levels, but to say FAANG doesn’t sell user data is naive at best.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by cstejerean on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @04:16AM (#40655760)
> we didn’t see “Joe Smith” level of granularity, it was at Zip code levels

So you got aggregated analytics instead of data about individual users.

Meanwhile other companies are selling your name, phone number, address history, people you are affiliated with, detailed location history, etc.

Which one would you say is "selling user data"?

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by jfoster on Monday June 10, 2024 @09:01PM (#40641125)
Anyone who disagrees with you about this should buy a Mac and try not enabling iCloud. There's constant nags and as far as I could find, no way to turn them off.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by musicale on Monday June 10, 2024 @11:36PM (#40642022)
1) Have you tried installing Linux? ;-)

2) I have run macOS VMs without iCloud. I'm not sure of the nags though. I believe signing out of iCloud will prevent iCloud from contacting Apple.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/104958

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by m463 on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @06:12AM (#40644480)
1) yes:)

2) that is entirely NOT true. You should install little snitch and see what happens even if you NEVER sign into icloud. note that the phone home contact is not immediate, it happens in the background at random intervals from random applications.

just some random services blocked by little snitch on a mac:

accountsd, adprivacyd, airportd, AMPLibraryAgent, appstoreagent, apsd, AssetCacheLocatorService.xpc, cloudd, com.apple.geod.xpc, com.apple.Safari.SafeBrowsing.Service, commerce, configd, familycircled, mapspushd, nsurlsessiond, ocspd, rapportd, remindd, Safari, sntp, softwareupdated, Spotlight, sutdentd, syspolicyd, touristd, transparencyd, trustd, X11.bin

(never signed into an apple id)

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by nativeit on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @03:54PM (#40650749)
Tell me more about how dastardly it is that Safari communicates with Apple servers. Type it from your browser that doesn’t communicate directly with its developers.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by nativeit on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @03:56PM (#40650764)
Judging from a lot of these comments, most of the folks here are reading/commenting via telnet.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by dyauspitr on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @12:37AM (#40642398)
I’ve never used iCloud since it came out. I can’t think of a single nag. Where do you see it on your iPhone or Mac?
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by Takennickname on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @01:01AM (#40642533)
I have an iPad (not iPhone or Mac). If you don't set up Icloud, there's always an annoying bright red circle in settings that tells you to "finish setting up your iPad".

Doesn't have to be bright red, or even there at all.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by kstrauser on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @01:34AM (#40642743)
Last time I had that on a laptop I was going to wipe soon afterward and didn’t want to fully set up, I clicked the “finish setting up” link and canceled out. Voila, red circle gone.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by jfoster on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @08:41AM (#40645551)
Gone until a few days or a week later, when it comes back.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by dyauspitr on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @02:27AM (#40643149)
Yes, that’s the only one I’ve seen. But it’s not much of a nag.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by jfoster on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @07:20AM (#40644928)
There's several of them. The most annoying for me was getting intermittent notifications to sign in to iCloud.

There's also this one: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/250727947

I eventually just gave in to stop the nags.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by musicale on Monday June 10, 2024 @11:33PM (#40641998)
> all apps have internet access by default, and you cannot stop it

Technically you can by turning off wi-fi and disabling cellular data, bluetooth, location services, etc. for the app.

To your point though, wi-fi data should also be a per-app setting, and it is an annoying omission. macOS has outgoing firewalls, but iOS does not (though you could perhaps fake it with a VPN.)

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by krrrh on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @12:08AM (#40642221)
> Apple is very intrusive

> Apple uses your data.

> they do other things too, a different way

What specifically do you mean? Their frankly quite paranoid security and privacy white papers are pretty comprehensive and I don’t think they could afford to lie in those.

> Apple should allow a personal you-have-all-your-data iCloud

Advanced Data Protection[0] applies e2ee for basically everything, with the exception email, and doesn’t degrade the seamless multi-device experience at all. For most people this is the best privacy option by a long shot, and no other major platform can provide anything close.

They’ve hampered product experience for a long time because of their allergy against modelling their customers on the cloud. The advent of AI seems to have caught them a bit off guard but the integrated ecosystem and focus on on-device processing looks like it may pay off, and Siri won’t feel 5 years behind Google Assistant or Alexa.

[0] https://support.apple.com/en-ca/102651

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by FireBeyond on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @12:27AM (#40642334)
> What specifically do you mean? Their frankly quite paranoid security and privacy white papers are pretty comprehensive and I don’t think they could afford to lie in those.

A couple of years ago Apple was busted when it was discovered that most Apple first-party apps weren't getting picked up by packet sniffer or firewalls on macOS.

Apple tried deflecting for a while before finally offering up the flimsy claim that it "was necessary to make updates easier". Which isn't a really good explanation when you're wondering why TextEdit.app needs a kernel network extension.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by kalleboo on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @01:31AM (#40642708)
What actually happened was Apple removed support for kernel extensions that these firewall apps used.

The user-mode replacement APIs allowed by sandboxed apps had a whitelist for Apple's apps, so you couldn't install some App Store firewall app that would then disable the App Store and screw everything up.

After the outrage, in a point release a few months later, they silently emptied out the whitelist, resolving the issue.

They never issued any kind of statement.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by FireBeyond on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @08:05PM (#40653100)
So their "fix", as described here, removed protection from "having the App Store disabled and everything screwed up"?

That makes no sense.

Even if it did, the app the would need protection is the App Store, not every single Apple app. In many cases, the fix for the worst case scenario would be "remove firewall app".

Also, given that TextEdit was not an AppStore app, for but one example, but a base image app.

> They never issued any kind of statement.

Shocking. I've had at least two MBPs affected by different issues that were later subject to recall, but no statement there. radar.apple.com may well be read by someone, but is largely considered a black hole.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by dwaite on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @06:15AM (#40644490)
> Apple is very intrusive. Macos phones home all the time.

The platform is heavily internet-integrated, and I would expect it to periodically hit Apple servers. There are a lot of people claiming to be security researchers reporting what Little Snitch told them. There are drastically fewer who would introspect packets and look for any gathered telemetry.

I really haven't seen evidence Apple is abusing their position here.

> Everything goes to icloud by default. I've gotten new devices and boom, it's uploading everything to iCloud.

You need to enable iCloud. You are prompted.

Also, a new device should have next to nothing to upload to iCloud, as its hard disk is still in the factory configuration.

> I think apple should allow a personal you-have-all-your-data iCloud

They have desktop backup. Maybe they should allow third party backup Apps on iPhone, although I suspect data would be encrypted and blinded to prevent abuses by third parties, and recovery would be challenging because today recovery is only possible on a known-state filesystem. The recovery aspect is what really has limited it to the handful of approaches implemented directly by Apple.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by thomassmith65 on Thursday June 13, 2024 @04:06AM (#40667147)
The lack of an iOS setting to deny specific apps network access is absurd. It doesn't feel like much of a privacy-focused platform when every day in my network logs I see hundreds of attempted connections from 'offline' iOS apps.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by parl_match on Monday June 10, 2024 @06:33PM (#40640009)
For what it's worth, those platform investments are the difference between Apple being applauded for this, and Microsoft being pilloried for Recall's deficiencies.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by olddustytrail on Monday June 10, 2024 @05:01PM (#40639043)
> I trust Apple to respect my privacy when doing AI

Ouch. That's literally a painful thing to read.

But hey, the computer wants you to be happy. Happiness is mandatory.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by abhpro on Monday June 10, 2024 @07:13PM (#40640369)
That might be "trust" in a relative sense
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by practicemaths on Monday June 10, 2024 @05:11PM (#40639161)
"Today, we celebrate the first glorious anniversary of the Information Purification Directives. We have created, for the first time in all history, a garden of pure ideology—where each worker may bloom, secure from the pests purveying contradictory thoughts. Our Unification of Thoughts is more powerful a weapon than any fleet or army on earth. We are one people, with one will, one resolve, one cause. Our enemies shall talk themselves to death, and we will bury them with their own confusion. We shall prevail!"
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by harry8 on Monday June 10, 2024 @11:35PM (#40642019)
> "I trust Apple..."

I'm actually a little gobsmacked anyone on this forum can type those words without physically convulsing.

The even more terrible part is I'm sure it's common. And so via network externalities the rest of us who do NOT trust any of these companies on the basis that all of them, time and again, have shown themselves to be totally untrustworthy in all possible ways, will get locked into this lunacy. I now can't deal with the government without a smartphone controlled by either google or apple. No other choice. Because this utter insanity isn't being loudly called out, spat upon, and generally treated with the withering contempt that these companies have so richly and roundly earned this decision is being made for all society by the most naive among us.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by dyauspitr on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @12:36AM (#40642384)
What government needs you to have a smartphone from Apple or Google?
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by kolinko on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @03:44AM (#40643639)
Not a requirement, but in Poland a ton of administration things can be done from a dedicated iphone/android app - including using your official ID. It is optional though, and you can alway do the same stuff (ID aside) from the web, or using paper and going places in person.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by jay_kyburz on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @02:17AM (#40643066)
The Australian Government required you to have an app called MyGovID to do you business taxes and other administrative tasks. This app is only Apple or Android, there is no web interface.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by kolinko on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @03:47AM (#40643653)
That’s crazy. Why no web interface? In Poland for taxes we have a web interface that is mobile and stationary, and for many other things it’s a choice between an app and web and paper.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by jay_kyburz on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @03:49AM (#40643667)
The tax part is all web, it just mandatory 2 factor authentication to login that requires the app.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by kolinko on Friday June 14, 2024 @02:53AM (#40678200)
Ahl. In our case, we have mobile app 2fa, but also an sms 2fa, and authentication through bank login - it’s quite neat that the government struck deal with a bunch of banks, and they serve as identity providers too.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by derefr on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @12:51AM (#40642472)
I don't think the GP meant "trust" as in "I think Apple has my best interests at heart."

Rather, I think they meant "trust" as in "Apple is observably predictable and rational in how they work toward their own self-interest, rarely doing things for stupid reasons. And they have chosen to center their business on a long-term revenue strategy involving selling high-margin short-lifetime hardware — a strategy that only continues to work because of an extremely high level of brand-image they've built up; and which would be ruined instantly if they broke any of the fundamental brand promises they make. These two factors together mean that Apple have every reason to be incentivized to only say things if they're going to mean them and follow through on them."

There's also the much simpler kind of "trust" in the sense of "I trust them because they don't put me in situations where I need to trust them. They actively recuse themselves from opportunities to steal my data, designing architectures to not have places where that can happen." (Of course, the ideal version of this kind of trust would be a fully-open-source-hardware-and-software, work-in-the-open, signed-public-supply-chain-ledger kind of company. You don't get that from Apple, nor from any other bigcorp. Apple's software is proprietary... but at least it's in your hand where you can reverse-engineer it! Google's software is off in a cloud somewhere where nobody can audit changes to it.)

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by rekoil on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @05:56AM (#40644398)
For me it's more "I think Apples business interests more closely align with my wishes as a customer" as opposed to any other megacorp.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by WorldMaker on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @10:27AM (#40646557)
At the heart of it: I feel like I'm Apple's customer in a way that I never feel like Google's customer (in everything they do it always seems like their real customers are Ad Buyers, even when you are ostensibly paying for services). (And Microsoft is in the middle and all over the map where some divisions treat you like a customer and others don't depending on the prevailing winds and the phase of the moon.)
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by dfxm12 on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @11:19AM (#40647232)
What leads you to feel this way?

They are anti right to repair & they have their walled garden on their mobile devices. Their vertically integrated model also leads to unusually high prices. This website in particular would also directly feel the pain of Apple killing apps to implement themselves later, the greedy apple store cut and also not allowing use of hardware features that Apples themselves can use. Consumers feel this indirectly (higher prices, less competition).

Also, don't get it twisted, Apple is still collecting all of your data, even if you ask them not to [0].

0 - https://mashable.com/article/apple-data-privacy-collection-l...

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by WorldMaker on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @02:05PM (#40649500)
There's absolutely several axes in play here. You have very different concerns than I do, and that's valid.

Their vertically integrated model leads to very good customer service. I don't pay extra for Apple Care and I still get treated like an adult if I show up to an Apple Store with some need.

Even when Apple makes a mistake and collects more data than they should, I don't expect that data to influence ads that I see or to be sold to the highest bidder. (As a developer myself, I find that I can be quite lenient on app internal telemetry.) I can also see that ad review is barely a small side hustle to them in their Quaterly Reports and I can also see that most of their ad revenue is from untargeted campaigns. (Microsoft is a bigger ad company than Apple. Google is an ad company deep into its DNA at this point with everything else a side hustle.)

There is a beauty to a well maintained walled garden. Royalty invested a lot of money into walled gardens and Apple maybe doesn't treat you exactly like royalty, but there's a lot of similar respect/dignity there in their treatment of customers, even if they want you to trust them not to touch the flowers or dig below the walls too much. They want you to have a good time. They want their garden to be like a Disney World, safer than the real world.

You may not appreciate those sorts of comforts and that's fine. Plenty of people prefer the beauty and comfort of a walled garden than the free-for-all of a public park (or the squatter's rights of an abandoned amusement park if you don't mind playing unpaid mechanic more often than not). There's a lot of subjective axes to evaluate all of this on.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by dfxm12 on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @02:36PM (#40649836)
I don't expect that data to influence ads that I see or to be sold to the highest bidder.

You should temper your expectations: https://gizmodo.com/apple-iphone-france-ads-fine-illegal-dat...

France’s data protection authority, CNIL, fined Apple €8 million ... for illegally harvesting iPhone owners’ data for targeted ads without proper consent.

If ads are a small percentage of Apple's quarterly reports, that isn't sound reasoning; after all, they make a lot of money in general in a lot of areas.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by disgruntledphd2 on Thursday June 13, 2024 @05:35AM (#40667612)
And if ads are leading to services growth (which they are), you should expect them to do more, scummier ad related things over time.

Fundamentally, ads is an incredibly high margin business with lots of room for growth (particularly when you own the platform and can handicap your competitors) so over time, all tech companies will become ads companies.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by rekoil on Thursday June 13, 2024 @01:33PM (#40672330)
Holy shit that is so depressing...
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by rekoil on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @12:29PM (#40648255)
Yeah that's pretty much how I feel as well.
[dead]
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by wackget on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @09:26AM (#40645937)
That's some nice casual racism you've got there. Actually it might be overt racism.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by Octoth0rpe on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @10:32AM (#40646612)
> high-margin short-lifetime hardware

I don't think this applies to their watch or tablet business where the limiting factor on lifetime in the market is security/os updates. Most alternatives in that space have significantly worse support cycles.

This used to be true of their phones as well, but the android market seems to be catching up in ways that tablets/wearables have not (see google's 7 year commitment for pixels).

Not sure if it applies to general purpose. Certainly there are non mac computers that we can throw linux on and use for 10+ years and there are examples of apple laptops getting cut off earlier than I'd like (RIP my beloved 12" macbook), but there are often some pretty serious tradeoffs to machines older than 7 years anyway. Also, I'm not sure if apple's strategy re: support lifecycles on products after the AS migration have shifted. It wouldn't surprise me if the first gen m1 products get 10 years of security updates.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by wraptile on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @12:52AM (#40642481)
Apple's marketing and branding is truly impressive when even Hackernews crowd, who'd you assume are very tech savvy, are eating it up all of the propaganda.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by kstrauser on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @01:30AM (#40642697)
“Wow, so many of these people neck deep into tech, privacy, and law disagree with me. It must be because they’re all suckers.”
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by wraptile on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @02:32AM (#40643188)
Despite your snark - you'll never win an argument where trusting a for profit corporation is some sort of win over transparent secure system. Yes Apple might be better of the lesser evils but is this really where us as a privileged class of people who actually understand all this give up and give in? This is sad.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by kstrauser on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @03:05AM (#40643405)
You’ll also never win an argument when assuming that the people you disagree with haven’t thought this through and come up with a different conclusion. The snark is from the implication that we’re either clueless or blind to it. The more likely explanation is that we have different priorities, and that we’re viewing the question from a different angle. That doesn’t make us ignorant or unprincipled, any more than you disagreeing with me makes you naive or unserious.

We have different ideas. That’s all. There’s no need to look down on each other for it.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by umanwizard on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @08:11AM (#40645288)
There’s not really any transparent secure system that competes with Apple.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by vundercind on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @08:32AM (#40645466)
Yeah, at this point, for me, it’s “use Apple stuff” or “barely use computers in my personal life”. I did the Linux and (later) Android tinkering thing for a good long while, and I’m over it. Losing all the features and automation and integration I get with no time lost, for a bunch of time consuming and janky DIY that still wouldn’t get me all of it, isn’t something I’ll do these days. I’d just avoid computers.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by kstrauser on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @09:48AM (#40646148)
I’ve been diagnosed with ADHD. I lost so much time to screwing around with a million config options. Recompiling with slightly different flags to make things 2% faster. Keeping my system bleeding-edge up to date. All that nonsense was fun but it was a way to avoid getting started on what I was suppose to be doing.

Going back to a Linux desktop would be the end of me. I know it.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by newdee on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @03:17PM (#40650284)
Same. Aside from a few self hosted services, I use Apple for my phone and work machines because I just want it to fucking work all the time. My parents understand that if they want IT support from me that they must use a Mac or iPhone - because then I rarely have to help them with anything.

The one exception I made recently was to dump Windows and move to a Fedora immutable build after seeing how capable the Steam Deck (and Linux) was for all the games I play. I’ll get shot of that if it causes me grief though - or just stop playing games on my PC.

I just don’t have the energy to mess about with it all these days and Apple is the 2nd best option in lieu of that.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by ikety on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @04:25PM (#40651053)
Tried that route, and while it is quite viable in 2024, I reverted to dual booting. I can turn on my computer to work or to play games, and those two environments are completely separate. Nvidia terrible corporation, but similar with Apple in the #justworks category. Getting much better on linux recently, but you lose stuff like the new hdr feature, and occasionally have to worry about anticheat
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by newdee on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @06:03PM (#40652133)
Yeah, I’m lucky in that I’m pretty stable now in which games I’m playing and they all run flawlessly via Proton or Lutris. It seems to mostly be the controversial kernel-level anticheats which don’t play ball or where devs don’t enable the Linux support flags for things like EAC which cause a problem. For those, I kinda just have to suck it up and play something else.

I did have a ton of issues with NVidia in the same environment, but after putting a Radeon card in it has been smooth sailing. That’s to be expected I guess.

I doubt I would have tolerated this even a few years ago though and would have ended up like yourself with a dual boot setup.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by fsflover on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @06:19PM (#40663828)
Define "competes". Sent from my GNU/Linux phone Librem 5.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by dingnuts on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @10:50AM (#40646839)
Uh, friend, this is still just an internet technology enthusiast forum. Popular opinion here is equally as reliable as Reddit. If you are taking hn upvotes as some kind of expert input, you're in for a rough time.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by kstrauser on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @12:15PM (#40648081)
No argument from me. I was replying to someone who couldn't believe the readers here, "who'd you assume are very tech savvy", didn't agree with their opinions.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by jrm4 on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @11:15AM (#40647169)
"Wow, so many of these people disagree with me, it might be because they have a huge dangerous blind spot because of a lack of knowledge and/or experience and/or have trouble seeing things from the outside"

...is a thing I experience on a regular basis (and that I only really gained confidence in once I actually saw the mistakes cause problems, e.g. password managers)

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by nozzlegear on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @12:57AM (#40642507)
> Because this utter insanity isn't being loudly called out, spat upon, and generally treated with the withering contempt that these companies have so richly and roundly earned this decision is being made for all society by the most naive among us.

Ah yes, blame the simple-minded plebes who foolishly cast their noses up at Windows Phone. If only Ballmer were still in charge, surely he'd have saved us from this horrible future of personal, privacy-respecting AI at the edge...

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by sho on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @12:59AM (#40642516)
> all of them, time and again, have shown themselves to be totally untrustworthy in all possible ways

Sorry, but this seems like a very vague claim to me. Can you specifically point out a time where Apple proved itself untrustworthy in a way that impacts personal privacy?

When Apple says they treat my data in a specific way, then yes I do trust them. This promise is pretty central to my usage of them as a company. I'd change my mind if there was evidence to suggest they're lying, or have betrayed that trust, but I haven't seen any, and your post doesn't provide any either.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by throwaway0223 on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @02:18AM (#40643070)
It depends on what you'd consider "untrustworthy", but some (myself included) feel it's hypocritical for Apple to position itself as a privacy conscious choice, and use its marketing / PR machine to give the impression it only makes money on devices/subscriptions, when they're silently managing an ads-funded cash cow, with billions of dollars that go directly to the bottom line, as pure profit.

Here's a few pointers, to get you up to speed [1-5]. Of course there's nothing wrong with monetizing their own user base and selling ads based on their 1PD (or, in the case of Safari, monetizing the search engine placement). But I find it ironic that they make a ton of money by selling ads based on the exact same practices they demonize others for -- user behavior, contextual, location, profile.

[1] https://searchads.apple.com/

[2] Apple’s expanding ad ambitions: A closer look at its journey toward a comprehensive ad tech stack - https://digiday.com/media-buying/apples-expanding-ad-ambitio...

[3] Apple’s Ad Network Is The Biggest Beneficiary Of Apple’s New Marketing Rules: Report -- https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2021/10/19/apples-...

[4] Apple Privacy Suits Claim App Changes Were Guise to Boost Ad Revenue - https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/business-news/app...

[5] Apple is becoming an ad company despite privacy claims - https://proton.me/blog/apple-ad-company

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by dwaite on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @05:33AM (#40644246)
> they're silently managing an ads-funded cash cow, with billions of dollars that go directly to the bottom line, as pure profit

Advertising isn't anti-privacy. Apple's fight was with tracking by third parties without user knowledge or consent. That is independent of, but often used for, advertising purposes.

This is different from say Google determining ads on Youtube based on what you are watching on Youtube.com, and from Amazon or Apple promoting products based on your product searches solely within their respective stores.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by codedokode on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @08:04AM (#40645239)
> Advertising isn't anti-privacy.

Advertising works much better when there is no privacy.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by nozzlegear on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @08:46AM (#40645593)
Your truism doesn’t refute their point.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by WorldMaker on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @10:35AM (#40646649)
Tracking-based Ad targeting is blip in the history of advertising and goes against previous decades of "common sense" in advertising that the best ads cast the widest net and catch the eye of people you (and they) don't even know are potential targets.

I hope this current fad dies and people return to that older marketing "common sense". Over-targeting is bad for consumers and bad for advertisers, the only people truly benefiting seem to be Google and Meta.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by fragmede on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @01:28AM (#40642685)
The fact that Advanced Data Protection on iCloud wasn't forced is sus.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by sho on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @01:43AM (#40642816)
Not when you understand the tradeoffs being made. If you enable Advanced Data Protection and lose or forget your password, Apple cannot help you recover it. It makes sense that it's opt-in and users make a conscious choice to make that trade-off.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by ZaoLahma on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @03:09AM (#40643432)
As someone who has to help my father with his personal tech as his mental health deteriorates (several brain tumors), I'm thrilled every time I find something that ISN'T locked down behind pin codes, passwords or other authentication methods that he no longer remembers or can communicate.

His current state really has made me think about my own tech, about what should be locked down and what really should not be - things that we lock down out of habit (or by force) rather than out of necessity.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by dclowd9901 on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @03:26AM (#40643543)
Given the rate at which the elderly find themselves swindled out of money due to scams, hacks or any other method of invasion, I really don’t think loosening controls makes the most sense.

Might be interesting if companies offered the ability for someone to be a “steward” over another when it came to sensitive choices (like allowing new logins, sending money, etc). Of course that itself is a minefield of issues with family members themselves taking advantage of their elderly members. But maybe power of attorney would have to be granted?

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by ZaoLahma on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @03:45AM (#40643646)
What I hinted at was more granularity in how we treat different types of data, or other accesses, in response to the idea of being forced to turn on "Advanced Data Protection on iCloud".

Rather than putting all of our personal data and accesses under a thick virtual fire blanket, perhaps it is perfectly fine if some of it isn't protected at all, or is protected in ways that could be easily circumvented with just a tiny bit of finagling.

This is now how I'm approaching my own digital foot print, that some not secret things are nowadays wide open, unencrypted and you just need to know where to look to access all of it.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by WorldMaker on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @10:46AM (#40646777)
Relatedly, I think a lot of us under-estimate/under-appreciate physical security in our threat models. A desktop tower that never leaves my house and would be a pain for anyone but a dedicated burglar to steal maybe doesn't need the same sort of security/encryption/authentication requirements for physical access in person that a phone or laptop might need. Certainly there are plenty of fears of people targeting me specifically and getting physical access to my house, but there are also more legal protections from some of those. Threat models are all about trade-offs and physical security/physical access restrictions trade-offs can be under-appreciated as places to make choices that can be in your favor.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by dclowd9901 on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @01:34AM (#40654878)
I understand what you mean but I think maybe your example wasn’t terrific given I think the elderly are actually frequent and vulnerable targets for crims. I’ve actually had scenarios where my parents were unable to log into an account and when I asked why they needed to, it was to give some “support specialist” information they were asking for. Is it a pain in the ass to help your parents install a mobile app sometimes? Yeah I guess. I’m just glad someone didn’t drain their bank account on them.

There is sometimes a point to inconvenience in that it requires time and assessment.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by seec on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @07:53AM (#40645152)
Yeah, the thing about "security" is that there is a lot more chance that it will come to bite you in the ass later down the road than being successful (actually prevent an issue). I have some funny stories about unrecoverable drives because of forgotten encryption keys.

For most people the only security they need is actually access to their money, everything else is mostly irrelevant, nobody really cares about weird habits or whatever.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by matwood on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @01:55AM (#40642908)
Have you ever done tech support?
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by caycep on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @01:46AM (#40642845)
it's not that I blindly trust apple; it's more that they're the one FAANG company where I am the actual customer and their incentives align/depend on keeping me happy. Google/MS could care less how I feel; and I am well aware that I am most certainly not their customer.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by NBJack on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @06:30AM (#40644583)
> it's more that they're the one FAANG company where I am the actual customer and their incentives align/depend on keeping me happier

Do they though? Battery performance that 'lies' to you intentionally, planned obsolescence, locked in ecosystems, overtly undercutting the alternatives, marketing that hypes up rather bland features...I admit I don't see your point.

Apple, if anything, seem about as user hostile as Microsoft is these days.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by audunw on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @08:07AM (#40645258)
> Battery performance that 'lies' to you intentionally, planned obsolescence ...

Everything is relative. Apple generally supports their devices with OS updates for longer than most Android phone makers. Their incentives here are well aligned: they get a decent profit from Apple Store no matter how long you use their phone.

I think a lot of the reporting on Apples actions is very click-baity and lack nuance. Take the case when Apple throttled CPU performance of their phones when the battery got old and degraded. It was reported as a case of planned obsolescence, but it was in fact the exact opposite: by limiting the power consumption of the CPU they avoided unexpected phone shutdown due to battery voltage going too low during bursts of high power consumption. A phone that randomly shuts down is borderline use-less. A phone that is slower can at least be used for a while longer. Apple didn't have to do this. They would have spent less R&D money, and had a much lower chance of bad PR backlash, if they just simply did nothing. Yet they did something to keep old phones useful for longer.

> locked in ecosystems

That's a fine balance. Creating a good ecosystem is part of what makes Apple so user friendly. And it's a lot harder to create open ecosystems than having closed ones. Especially when you factor in security and reliability. If Apple diverted resources to making their ecosystems more open I think their ecosystem integration would have been significantly worse, which would have made them lose the thing most users considers Apples primary advantage.

Apple is a mixed bag. They were one of the first to go all-in on USB-C. Sometimes they push aggressively for new open standards that improve user experience. Yet they held on to Lightning for far too long on their phones. But here you get back to the planned obsolescence factor: there's a HUGE amount of perfectly fine Lightning accessories out there that people/companies are using with iPhones. If they killed Lightning too fast I can guarantee you they would have gotten a lot of hate from people who couldn't use their Lightning accessory anymore. With laptops that wasn't a big issue. Adapters are significantly less convenient to use with phone accessories.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by skydhash on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @08:06AM (#40645249)
Apple is tinker-hostile, but they’re great at getting-things-done for the majority of people. It’s frustrating when you have the knowledge to build custom workflows, but the happy path and the guardrails work great for many.

Microsoft have no consistency and Google wants you to pray at the altar of advertising.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by realfeel78 on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @01:58PM (#40649414)
Who do you think is Netflix's customer if not you?
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by AnAfrican on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @04:02AM (#40655680)
Shouldn't Microsoft be somewhere between Google and Apple ? After all, they do rely on you buying their software in a way Google does not.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by suneater921 on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @03:59AM (#40643718)
Yeah, you’re right. Apple’s approach to privacy is like one of those fairytale genies. On paper, and in many technical aspects, class-leading, but useless because anyone powerful and/or determined enough to hurt you will be able to use the backdoors that they willingly provide.

End to end encryption? Sure, but we’re sending your location and metadata in unencrypted packets.

Don’t want governments to surveil your images? Sure, they can’t see the images - but they’ll send us hashes of illegal images, and we’ll turn your images into hashes, check them against each other, and report you to them if we find enough.

Apple essentially sells unbreakable locked doors while being very careful to keep a few windows open. They are a key PRISM member and have obligations under U.S. law that they will fulfil. Encryption backdoors aren’t needed when the systems that they work within can be designed to provide backdoors.

I fully expect that Apple Intelligence will have similar system defects that won’t be covered properly, and will go forgotten until some dissident gets killed and we wonder why.

For a look at their PR finesse in tricking media, see this, over the CSAM fiasco that has been resolved, in Apple’s favour.

https://sneak.berlin/20230115/macos-scans-your-local-files-n...

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by ladzoppelin on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @04:57AM (#40644037)
Yeah but Google and MS have the same problems.. What your talking about is the reality of using a computer connected to the internet since 2003.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by NBJack on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @06:33AM (#40644614)
This is true, but your examples aren't directly trying to pretend they are the better alternatives for that. Apple is doing its best to paint itself as some golden company when reality dictates they are no better (if honestly worse in some categories).
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by seec on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @07:47AM (#40645111)
But they don't bullshit about it as much and their offerings are much cheaper and it's easier to not have to pay as much (either with data or money).

There is just a general hypocrisy about Apple that is hilarious.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by realfeel78 on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @02:07PM (#40649517)
> Sure, they can’t see the images - but they’ll send us hashes of illegal images, and we’ll turn your images into hashes, check them against each other, and report you to them if we find enough.

> I fully expect that Apple Intelligence will have similar system defects

Being able to scan devices for CSAM at scale is a "defect" to you?

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by parl_match on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @05:16PM (#40651587)
Yes, it is a defect. For many reasons

- it's anti-user: a device spying on you and reporting back to a centralized server is a bad look

- it's a slippery slope: talking about releasing this caused them to get requests from governments to consider including "dissident" information

- it's prone to abuse: within days, the hashing mechanism they were proposing was reverse engineered and false positives were embedded in innocent images

- it assumes guilt across the population: what happened to innocent by default?

and yes, csam is a huge problem. And btw, apple DOES currently scan for it- if you share an album (and thus decrypt it), it is scanned for CSAM.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by jajko on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @05:42AM (#40644317)
Don't expect balanced objective opinions on Apple on HN, that was never ever the case. Some of it are tech enthusiasts, some are maybe employees or investors, some is paid PR.

Nothing wrong there per se, its just good to realize it.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by umanwizard on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @08:09AM (#40645276)
Do you have any examples of Apple being untrustworthy to back up your rather extreme reaction?
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by adrian_b on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @11:16AM (#40647200)
You should remember that in December 2023 it was revealed that the "Apple Silicon" CPUs have some undocumented testing features, which have unbelievably remained enabled in the Apple devices for many years until being notified by the bug finders, instead of being disabled at the end of production.

Using the undocumented but accessible control registers, all the memory protections of the Apple devices could be bypassed. Using this hardware backdoor, together with some software bugs in the Apple system libraries and applications, for many years, until the end of 2023, it has been possible to remotely take complete control of any iPhone, with access to its storage and control of the camera and microphone, in such a way that it was almost impossible for the owner to discover this (the backdoor bugs have been discovered only as a consequence of analyzing some suspicious Internet traffic of some iPhones that were monitored by external firewalls).

It is hard to explain such a trivial security error as not disabling a testing backdoor after production, for a company that has claimed publicly for so long that they take the security of their customers very seriously and that has provided a lot of security theater features, like a separate undocumented security processor, while failing to observe the most elementary security rules.

It is possible that the backdoor was intentional, either inserted with the knowledge of the management at the request of some TLA, or by a rogue Apple employee who was a mole of such a TLA, but these alternative explanations are even worse for Apple than the explanation based on negligence.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by saagarjha on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @08:20AM (#40787622)
I don't think this demonstrates untrustworthiness.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by talldayo on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @01:09PM (#40790980)
Sure. Next you'll say that POPCOUNT and the Intel Management Engine are actually perfectly trustworthy too.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by neonsunset on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @01:19PM (#40791037)
Wait, what's wrong with BMI1 instructions?
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by saagarjha on Thursday June 27, 2024 @06:25AM (#40809017)
popcount is actually a secret instruction to detect dissidents who use Hacker News. Wake up sheeple
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by immibis on Thursday June 27, 2024 @06:47AM (#40809109)
Allegedly added to the instruction set by request of the NSA, who uses it for things. https://vaibhavsagar.com/blog/2019/09/08/popcount/
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by neonsunset on Thursday June 27, 2024 @04:17PM (#40814618)
Good thing they did that then, it’s a very useful instruction!
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by mixmastamyk on Sunday June 23, 2024 @12:20AM (#40764754)
Forgot the "screeching minority" who values privacy quote already?

https://www.howtogeek.com/746588/apple-discusses-screeching-...

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by PaulRobinson on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @09:04AM (#40645763)
Could you provide an alternative model where you get what you want, that is economically viable for vendors and manufacturers to invest in, and that does not require me to teach my parents how to sysadmin their phones to keep them safe?

I trust Apple more than I trust Google to not share my data with a large group of corporate entities who want to sell me things I do not wish to buy.

I believe both - and if required, organizations like Mozilla, Ubuntu, Redhat/Oracle, whoever - to comply with law enforcement requests made of them to hand over any data relating to me that they might hold. I'm OK with that. I think Apple has less of that data than Google, and works actively to have less of it. Google works actively to increase the amount of data they have about me.

I think even if you had a functional device using entirely open software, that any organisation you share that data with or use to communicate with using that device - including cloud service providers, network providers, and so on - would also comply with law enforcement.

"Ah!", you say, "But I get to choose which crypto to use! I know it won't have backdoors!". To which I will reply you are unlikely to have read and truly understood the source code to the crypto software you're using, and that such software is regularly shown to have security issues. It's just not true that open source means that all bugs become shallow, and the "many eyes" you're hoping for to surface these issues are likely employed at, err, Apple, Google, Redhat, Ubuntu, Mozilla...

I look at the landscape and I conclude that true open source environments have a ton of issues, Google/Android have far more (for my taste), and that I am more confident in Apple than I am in either myself (even as an experienced tech expert), or Google, or Microsoft, to keep my data private to me to the greatest extent legally permissible.

Do I think "legally permissible" should be extended? Sure. Do I wish a multi-billionaire would throw 50% of the net worth at making open source compete on the same level? Yeah, cool. Do I think any of that is realistic in the next 5 years? No. So, I make my bets accordingly, eyes wide open, balancing the risks...

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by tl on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @10:32AM (#40646609)
> I'm actually a little gobsmacked anyone on this forum can type those words without physically convulsing.

Apple tells a pretty compelling lie here. Rather than execute logic on a server whose behavior can change moment to moment, it executes on a device you "own" with a "knowable" version of its software. And you can absolutely determine no network traffic occurs during the execution of the features from things announced this week and going back a decade.

The part that Apple also uploads your personal information to their servers on separate intervals both powering their internal analytics and providing training data is also known, and for the most part, completely lost on people.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by ducadveritatem on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @04:33PM (#40651163)
Are you claiming Apple uses personal user data (e.g someone’s photos or texts) as training data for their server-side models? That’s a massive claim and there are some journalists you should definitely shoot a message to on signal if you have proof of that and aren’t just blowing smoke.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by tl on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @12:34PM (#40660022)
Apple's claim (per public statements) is:

- They upload your data to their servers. This is a requirement of iCloud and several non-iCloud systems like Maps.

- Where analytics is concerned, data is anonymized. They give examples of how they do this like by adding noise to the start and end of map routes.

- Where training is concerned, data is limited to purchased data (photos) and opted-in parties (health research).

My point is that Apple's code executing on device can be verified to execute on device. That concept does not require trust. Where servers are involved and Apple does admit their use in some cases, you trust them (as much as you trust Google) their statements are both perfectly true and ageless. Apple transitions seamlessly between two true concepts with wildly different implications.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by adrian_b on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @10:59AM (#40646943)
I would give multiple upvotes to this, were it possible.

I do not have either Google or Apple accounts and I do not intend to ever open such accounts (despite owning some Android smartphones and having owned Apple laptops).

Because of this, I am frequently harassed by various companies or agencies, which change their interaction metods into smartphone apps and then deprecate the alternatives.

Moreover, I actually would be willing to install such apps, but only if there would be some means to download them, but most of them insist on providing the app only in the official store, from which I cannot install it, because I have no Google account.

I have been forced to close my accounts in one of the banks that I use, because after using their online banking system in the browser for more than a decade, including from my smartphone, they have decided to have a custom app.

In the beginning that did not matter, but then they have terminated their Web server for online banking and they have refused to provide directly their app, leaving the Google store as the only source of it.

I have been too busy to try to fight this legally, but I cannot believe that their methods do not break any law. I am not an US citizen, I live in the European Union, and when an European bank (a Societe Generale subsidiary) refuses to provide its services to anyone who does not enter in a contractual relationship with a foreign US company, such discrimination cannot be legal.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by LamaOfRuin on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @12:02PM (#40647927)
I sympathize with the plight, as I have also occasionally tried to fight this fight.

However, to quibble with your last analysis, you're almost certainly entering an agreement with the EU registered legal entity of a multinational company, and you almost certainly already had to do that to obtain the hardware, run the OS, use the browser, etc. The degree to which any of those contracts are enforceable is another matter.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by adrian_b on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @01:45PM (#40649295)
Even if Google were treated as a local company, that does not change anything.

I find unbelievable that a bank has the arrogance of conditioning their services on whether their customers accept to do business or not with some third party.

I see no difference between the condition of having a Google account and for instance a condition that I should buy my car from Audi or from any other designated company, instead of from wherever I want. It is none of my bank's business what products or services I choose to buy or use (outside of special circumstances like when receiving bank credits).

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by anileated on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @12:02AM (#40642187)
Since Apple is building ChatGPT integration into its devices, it’s clear that Apple’s users’ data is going to be slurped by Microsoft via ClosedAI servers now.

It’s unlikely latency would permit them to proxy every request to fully mask end-user IPs (it’s unclear what “obscured” means), and they would probably include device identifiers and let Microsoft maintain your shadow profile if that could improve ChatGPT output (it may not require literally storing your every request, so denying that is weasel phrasing).

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by kstrauser on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @01:35AM (#40642760)
I’ve been browsing with Private Relay since the day it became available. What’s this intolerable latency you’re talking about?
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by anileated on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @09:58AM (#40646256)
Browsing is not the same as using a personal assistant.

First, it takes much less compute to serve a page than to run an LLM query. LLMs are slow even if you eliminate all network.

Second, your expectations when browsing are not the same as when using a personal assistant.

Right now even when I simply ask Siri to set a timer it takes more than a couple of seconds. Add an actual GPT in the mix and it’s laughable.

In any case, even with a private relay, Apple’s phrasing does not deny sending device identifiers and allowing ClosedAI/Microsoft to build your shadow profile (without storing requests verbatim).

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by kstrauser on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @10:25AM (#40646533)
Nope, you’re moving the goalposts. You were talking about the latency of making a network call. I pointed out that Apple’s current proxying architecture has low latency for web browsing, with orders of magnitude larger requests moving through it. We’re not going to bring GPT slowness into the mix because that’s not what we were discussing.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by anileated on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @04:17PM (#40650981)
No, I meant the cumulative latency that increases with every hop. You can’t fool physics. Not proxying is just faster and in case of an already super-slow server these seconds matter to any UX designer worth their salt.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by 4m1rk on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @01:52AM (#40642887)
Google is not trusted because it was an AI company and needed your data. Apple just joined the club.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by bayindirh on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @04:26AM (#40643871)
When enrolling physical security keys to my accounts, only Google's process requested extra, identifiable fields in my key, generating a warning in Firefox, which can anonymize these fields.

Google wants to track even my physical security key across sites to track me.

How can I trust their AI systems with my data?

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by dwaite on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @05:56AM (#40644399)
The attestation on (FIDO certified) security keys is a batch attestation, and meant to correspond to a a batch size of at least 100,000.

So they were effectively asking for the make and model.

There are non-certified authenticators which may have unfortunate behaviors here, such as having attestations containing a hardware serial number. Some browsers maintain a list and will simply block attestations from these authenticators. Some will prompt no matter what.

There is also a bit of an 'Open Web' philosophy at play here - websites often do not have a reason to make security decisions around the make and models of keys. Having an additional prompt in a user conversion path discourages asking for information they don't need, particularly information which could be used to give some users a worse experience and some vendors a strong 'first-mover' market advantage.

In fact, the motivator for asking for this attestation is often for self-service account management. If I have two entries for registered credentials, it is nice if I have some way to differentiate them, such as knowing one of them is a Yubico 5Ci while the other is an iPhone.

Many parties (including Google) seem to have moved to using an AAGUID lookup table to populate this screen in order to avoid the attestation prompt. It also winds up being more reliable, as software authenticators typically do not provide attestations today.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by bayindirh on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @06:30AM (#40644588)
Both devices are Yubikey 5 series, and none of the other services asked for anything similar, or triggered any warnings.

Moreover, none of the service providers auto-named my keys with make/model, etc.

> If I have two entries for registered credentials, it is nice if I have some way to differentiate them, such as knowing one of them is a Yubico 5Ci while the other is an iPhone.

First, Google doesn't differentiate the security keys' name even if you allow for that data to be read, plus you can always rename your keys to anything you want, at any of the service providers I enrolled my keys, so it doesn't make sense.

Moreover, Firefox didn't warn me for any other services which I enrolled my keys, and none of them are small providers by any means.

So, it doesn't add up much.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by jeswin on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @05:13AM (#40644119)
> I trust Apple to respect my privacy when doing AI...

Depends on where you are. Apple will bend over backwards when profits are affected, as you can see in China.

Ironically, the only time a large company took a stand at the cost of profits was in 2010 when Google pulled out of China over hacking and subsequently refused to censor. Google has changed since then, but that was the high watermark for corporates putting principles over profits. Apple, no.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by dwaite on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @05:42AM (#40644312)
> Google pulled out of China over hacking and subsequently refused to censor

My impression is that they had little chance to survive in a Chinese market, competing with a severely limited product against state-sponsored search products while also being a victim of state-sponsored cyberattacks.

It was the morally correct decision, but I don't know if they were leaving any money on the table doing so. I suspect the Google of today would also decide not to shovel cash into an incinerator.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by ManuelKiessling on Monday June 10, 2024 @04:59PM (#40639015)
It’s ironic how the one company that is WAY over the top wrt secrecy — not only to the public, but also and especially internally (they’ve even walled the hardware team from the software team while developing the iPhone!) — is at the same time the one company that really nails integration.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by Jtsummers on Monday June 10, 2024 @06:04PM (#40639722)
The key difference is that Apple (as an organization) appears to have an overarching roadmap (that spans multiple product lines). The secrecy is irrelevant as long as the leadership of each division is aligned (it hurts, but does not prevent success). Google, MS, and others are less organized at the top, so subdivisions of the overall org are left to plan for themselves and between each other, which leads to conflicts. Resolution may be achieved when things get pushed high enough, but only if it surfaces at the top for a leader (if such people exist in their org structure) to declare a resolution and focus for the groups involved.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by Spartan-S63 on Monday June 10, 2024 @07:50PM (#40640675)
This reads like a critique of centralized versus decentralized control, but I think it’s more about lack of clear intention.

Apple has a clear intent that allows the subsequent groups to work towards and contribute to it. Google and Microsoft don’t. They have a vague idea, but not something tangible enough for subordinate leaders to meaningfully contribute to.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by xw390112 on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @02:14AM (#40643050)
As the chess players know, ‘a bad plan is better than none at all’. https://www.chesshistory.com/winter/extra/planning.html
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by dwaite on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @07:05AM (#40644816)
Apple is odd in other ways. For example: Calculator on iPad. Once they had a few iPad releases without a calculator, they needed a sufficient _reason_ to release a calculator app for iPad. The product was gated by the narrative.

There was also likely no team on calculator at all (are there bugs that justify a maintenance team?), so it needed a big idea like 'Math Text' to be green-lit or it would simply never come. This is despite missing calculator being an obvious deficiency, and solving it via a port to be a relatively tiny lift.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by xethos on Monday June 10, 2024 @05:46PM (#40639553)
People will scoff and say "Yeah, but all kinds of companies have internal firewalls, big deal". But no, these were literal walls that would appear over a weekend and suddenly part of the campus was off-limits to those not on the iPhone project.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by kolinko on Monday June 10, 2024 @05:54PM (#40639627)
Wow. Any place to read about that?
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by gumby on Monday June 10, 2024 @08:47PM (#40641047)
Any book about the development of the iphone or articles in the business press from a few months after product introduction (if any are still online…try Fortune).
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by xethos on Monday June 10, 2024 @09:01PM (#40641121)
I found it in Fred Vogelstein's "Dogfight: How Apple and Google Went to War and Started a Revolution" [0]. Decent read, not amazing IMO, but with fun tidbits about the iPhone / Android launches

[0] https://libgen.is/book/index.php?md5=60B714243482AE3D7B9A83B...

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by kudokatz on Monday June 10, 2024 @11:30PM (#40641981)
I heard they did this for the Amazon Fire Phone, too
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by highwaylights on Monday June 10, 2024 @05:19PM (#40639244)
Ironically, I feel like Apple might have lost me as a customer today. It won't matter to Apple, obviously, but so much of what they showed today I just felt was actively pushing me out of the ecosystem.

I first bought some devices for myself, then those devices got handed off to family when I upgraded, and now we're at a point where we still use all of the devices we bought to date - but the arbitrary obsolescence hammer came down fairly hard today with the intel cut-off and the iPhone 15+ requirement for the AI features. This isn't new for Apple, they've been aging perfectly usable devices out of support for years. We'll be fine for now, but patch support is only partial for devices on less-than-latest major releases so I likely need to replace a lot of stuff in the next couple of years and it would be way too expensive to do this whole thing again. I'll also really begrudge doing it, as the devices we have suit us just fine.

Some of it I can live without (most of the AI features they showed today), but for the parts that are sending off to the cloud anyway it just feels really hard to pretend it's anything other than trying to force upgrades people would be happy without. OCLP has done a good job for a couple of homework Macs, I might see about Windows licenses for those when they finally stop getting patches.

I'd feel worse for anyone that bought the Intel Mac Pro last year before it got taken off sale (although I'm not sure how many did). That's got to really feel like a kick in the teeth given the price of those things.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by iknowstuff on Monday June 10, 2024 @08:17PM (#40640849)
What? Your phone does everything it did when you bought it and will keep receiving important updates for years to come. How entitled are you to expect to receive every upcoming feature? And where else are you gonna get that? Lol
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by highwaylights on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @09:38AM (#40646048)
Not sure this is accurate - a lot of devices have been culled from receiving future updates with these releases. This is not anything new this year, I get that, and I don't really mind not getting the new AI features, but having devices that will stop being supported and which can't have any other software installed because of being locked down is really not a fun situation to be on this side of.

The old Macs can still install Linux/Windows/ChromeOS Flex. iPads/iPhones not so much.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by hmottestad on Monday June 10, 2024 @06:07PM (#40639753)
From rumours of Apple buying lots of GPUs from Nvidia not that long ago I think management got a nice little scare when OpenAI released GPT-3.5 and then GPT-4. It takes several years to bring a CPU to market. Apple probably realised far too late that they needed specific features in their SOCs to handle the new AI stuff, so it wasn’t included in anything before the A17 Pro. For the M1, M2 and M3 I believe that Apple is willing to sacrifice heat and battery to achieve what they want. The A17 Pro is probably very efficient at running LLMs so it can do so in a phone with a small battery and terrible thermal performance. For their Macs and iPads with M1, M2, M3 they will just run the LLMs on the AMX or the GPU cores and use more power and produce more heat.

Could also be a memory problem. The A17 Pro in the iPhone 15 Pro comes with 8 GB of memory while everything before that has 6 GB or less. All machines with the M1 or newer come with at least 8 GB of memory.

PS: The people who bought the Intel Mac Pro after the M1 was released knew very well what they were getting into.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by morvita on Monday June 10, 2024 @07:16PM (#40640400)
It worth noting that the power of the neural engine doubled between the A16 and A17 chips (17 vs 35 TOPS, according to Wikipedia), while the A15 to A16 was a much more modest increase (15.8 to 17 TOPS). So it does seem like they started prioritizing AI/ML performance with the A17 design.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by jwr on Monday June 10, 2024 @06:18PM (#40639865)
Apple started including the neural engine back with A11 Bionic. In 2017.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by talldayo on Monday June 10, 2024 @06:26PM (#40639930)
And at .6 TOP/second of performance, that Neural Engine is practically useless today. You can go buy a $50 Rockchip board with an NPU 10x faster.

Which introduces a funny aspect, of the whole NPU/TPU thing. There's a constant stairstepping in capability; the newer models improving only obsoletes older ones faster. It's a bit of a design paradox.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by jwr on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @07:22AM (#40644952)
Yes. But I was responding to "Apple probably realised far too late". I think they were in fact way ahead of everyone else, it's just that the hardware of 2017 can't keep up with the demands of today.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by talldayo on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @10:58AM (#40646930)
> I think they were in fact way ahead of everyone else,

This would be a lot easier to argue if they hadn't gimped their Neural Engine by only allowing it to run CoreML models. Nobody in the industry uses or cares about CoreML, even now. Back then, in 2017, it was still underpowered hardware that would obviously be outshined by a GPU compute shader.

I think Apple would be ahead of everyone else if they did the same thing Nvidia did by combining their Neural Engine and GPU, then tying it together with a composition layer. Instead they have a bunch of disconnected software and hardware libraries; you really can't blame anyone for trying to avoid iOS as an AI client.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by hmottestad on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @12:30PM (#40648264)
It was specifically the LLM stuff. Their neural engines were never designed for running LLMs. The question is if the new neural engine in the A17 Pro and M4 actually have the required features to run LLMs or not. That’s at least what I suspect.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by easyThrowaway on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @08:27AM (#40645421)
I'm genuinely wondering why the NU was added in first place, I can't think of any app that made egregious use of that outside of the Gallery and Photo App. They didn't even allow any access from third parties in a few initial iterations.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by hmottestad on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @12:28PM (#40648238)
On-device voice to text for Siri. Facial recognition in the photos app. Text recognition in photos. Scene recognition and adaptation in the camera app. And FaceID.

Not all those were available from day, except FaceID.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by Takennickname on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @01:05AM (#40642564)
You have no idea what you're talking about. This is painful to read.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by themadturk on Monday June 10, 2024 @06:14PM (#40639816)
It's odd...I've gotten along fine without AI in my iPhone 13, and it will continue to work just as I have come to expect with the new iOS.

The new AI features will be available on the iPad Air I just ordered, and on my M1 MacBook Air, and I'll be able to play with them there until I'm ready to upgrade my phone. I think these new features sound great, but I'm not in any hurry to adopt them wholesale.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by gumby on Monday June 10, 2024 @08:42PM (#40641016)
> I think these new features sound great, but I'm not in any hurry to adopt them wholesale.

And if you don’t like them you don’t have to use them. I don’t use Siri and it doesn’t bother me that Apple includes it on all their machines.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by hansvm on Monday June 10, 2024 @11:08PM (#40641847)
> I don't use Siri

That's likely true. Unless you were careful to do a lot more than just disabling it, it does use you though, slurping up quite a bit of data.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by flemhans on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @09:00AM (#40645723)
How?
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by hansvm on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @01:36PM (#40660770)
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by whoiskevin on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @10:37AM (#40646670)
reference? Proof? How is it slurping data if I have it turned off and don't even use it?
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by hansvm on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @11:51AM (#40647751)
You have to disable the data slurping for each app. The main toggle just governs whether it responds to voice commands. Previous discussion [0].

Separately, the data Siri sends isn't held to the same differential privacy standards as some of Apple's other diagnostics. They just give you a unique ID and yolo it [1]. Unless personalized device behaviors are somehow less identifiable than all the other classes of data subject to deanonymization attacks (demographics, software/hardware version fingerprints, ...), that unique ID is just to be able to pretend to the courts that they tried (give or take Hanlon's razor).

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39927657

[1] https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/data/en/ask-siri-dictati...

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by methodical on Monday June 10, 2024 @05:25PM (#40639326)
While I mostly agree with your point of Apple being rather aggressive with forced upgrading, I don't think the device requirements for these features were based solely on the desire to push out people with older devices, but rather due to the hardware requirements for a lot of the ML/AI features being based on the Apple Silicon, at least for the Mac side of things. As to why they drew the line at the iPhone 15, perhaps it's a similar reason regarding performance requirements. While obviously, I'm not intimately knowledgeable of their basis for the device requirements, I'd wait a few more years to see how the device requirements for these new features cascade. If they continue requiring newer and newer devices, only supporting the trailing generation or so, then I'd agree wholeheartedly with your sentiment.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by guhcampos on Monday June 10, 2024 @06:02PM (#40639695)
I'm with you here. As a proud owner of an iPhone 13 Mini, I refuse to switch to anything bigger than that, but I do concede that any moderately useful AI pipeline will require more power than my aging phone is capable to provide.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by Aperocky on Monday June 10, 2024 @10:14PM (#40641571)
It'll get you when the battery life drops to 4 hours screen time.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by dwaite on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @06:56AM (#40644762)
I'll always slightly regret not getting a Mini, but 2020 was a really bad year for it to launch (when I didn't feel like the extra work needed to see one in person) and 2021 I actually needed a better camera.

In retrospect though, it may be best that I don't know what I missed.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by jomohke on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @12:41AM (#40642422)
Yes, it's not arbitrary at all — they're only offering it on devices with at least 8GB of memory.

The iPhone 15 Pros were the first iPhones with 8GB. All M1+ Macs/iPads have at least 8GB of ram.

LLMs are very memory hungry, so frankly I'm a little surprised they support such low memory requirements (especially knowing that the system is running other tasks, not just ML). Microsoft's Copilot+ program has a 16GB minimum.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by shrew on Monday June 10, 2024 @08:11PM (#40640814)
iOS18 will still be available for older devices right? From the looks of the preview, it’ll go back to phones from 2018 which is fairly standard for Apple. And I’d imagine older iOS versions will continue to receive security updates for several years after they’re dropped from the latest version.

What is it about this release that has lost your support? Specifically gating the Apple Intelligence stuff to the most modern hardware?

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by cchance on Monday June 10, 2024 @06:31PM (#40639989)
I mean, your pushed out to what? Lol your acting like android doesn't obsolete the shit out of their past cycle phones. I don't really get what you wanted them to do here, they're deploying AI in the OS and ecosystem where they can and the features that the hardware supports are being brought in, i don't see where they're implementing features that the hardware supports and are blocking "because"... I don't think anywhere they clarified what part of the cloud tools wont work on older versions. But at the end of the day old hardware is old... its not gonna support everything especially on generational shifts like how much better arm was over intel, or the fact that NPU's don't just manifest inside of old silicon
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by evantbyrne on Monday June 10, 2024 @08:38PM (#40640987)
I'm not following. What business did they lose if you weren't planning to upgrade? Maybe there is a misunderstanding of what's being gated in the release. I have an iPhone 13, and it was not a surprise to see that AI upgrades would require new hardware. Maybe I'll get a 16 if reviews confirm that it's good.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by tjmc on Monday June 10, 2024 @10:15PM (#40641580)
It will be interesting to see if there's an Osborne Effect on iPhone 15 (non-pro) sales now that the model is effectively stuck with brain-dead Siri.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by graeme on Monday June 10, 2024 @11:12PM (#40641871)
Apple isn’t magic and can’t defy physics. The chips on the older devices aren’t powerful enough to run the new features.

Hardware matters again now in a way it hasn’t for a couple of decades.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by dwaite on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @06:54AM (#40644744)
I'm confused. My understanding is that they didn't drop support for all Intel Macs in Sequoia. My 2018 MBP for example is still supported. The last Intel Mac Pro in your example is also still supported.

My MBP hasn't hasn't been _fully_ supported for many years. The M1-specific features started rolling out in 2021 - ability to run iPad apps being the most obvious one, the ability to get the globe view in maps being the most questionable. IIRC, my MBP did not yet have a M1 Pro/Max version available for sale when they announced the M1-specific features.

The point being, having AI features unavailable doesn't make the Mac unusable any more than it makes an iPhone 15 unusable. Those parts should continue to operate the way they do today (e.g. with today's Siri).

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by umanwizard on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @08:17AM (#40645332)
Requiring a new device for new features is not the same thing as removing support for older devices.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by ants_everywhere on Monday June 10, 2024 @06:43PM (#40640100)
That's actually exactly what you want. No one company should know what you do on all apps.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by ethbr1 on Monday June 10, 2024 @07:07PM (#40640321)
At this point, I trust {insert megacorp} more than {insert App Dev LLC} + {insert megacorp}.

Neither is great, but at least the megacorp has a financial incentive to maintain some of my privacy.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by Sai_ on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @08:37AM (#40645515)
I don't quite understand this comment. Are you encouraging us to use your comment as some sort of template and insert our own preferred corporate names?

Sounds like some crazy level of meta where your brilliance is applicable to any pair of mega corps...which I don't buy.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by bbor on Monday June 10, 2024 @07:18PM (#40640427)
Well tbf I’m not sure Google does project ownership… I was shocked how many seemingly important conversations ended with “well, I guess these days that functionality is owned by the community of relevant stakeholders…” (aka: owned by nobody at all). I think they’re only able to do what they’ve done through the sheer concentration of brilliant overpaid engineers, in spite of such “innovation”.

Totally agree on the AI points. Google may have incredible research, but Apple clearly is playing to their strengths here.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by jerieljan on Monday June 10, 2024 @09:02PM (#40641127)
For Google in particular, this was honestly something they could've done far earlier. They had the Pixel phones, they had the Tensor stuff, and then Gemini came along.

But for some reason, they decided to just stick to feature tidbits here and there and chose not to roll out quality-of-life UI features to make Gemini use easier on normal apps and not just select Google apps. And then it's also limited by various factors. They were obviously testing the waters and were just as cautious, but imho it was a damn shame. Even summarization and key points would've been nice if I could invoke it on any text field.

But yeah, this is truly the ecosystem benefit in full force here for Apple, and they're making good use of it.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by smileysteve on Monday June 10, 2024 @10:20PM (#40641605)
Google couldn't figure out which messaging platform of theirs would succeed; imagine if the team working on hangouts or meet v1 had worked on RCS or context first.

RCS isn't fair, Google wanted the carriers to work on that, but in a disparate ecosystem they also couldn't come to a decision

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by kaba0 on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @12:03AM (#40642198)
Android CPUs are not playing in the same ballpark as Apple’s, there is always at least one generation difference between - and the core of these AI features is on-device intelligence, possibly by having managed to fit a good chunk of an LLM to an iphone. It being able to determine when to go online is the crucial part.

Also, apple bought up more ML startups than google or microsoft.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by tstrimple on Monday June 10, 2024 @09:16PM (#40641213)
Microsoft is trying and I feel they are in a much stronger position than Google. The same advantage that Apple has for personal docs and images Microsoft has across business content. Seamless AI integration across teams and outlook and sharepoint and other office products offer huge platform benefits.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by kaba0 on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @12:07AM (#40642214)
What personal data do you have on Microsoft? It doesn’t even know where my photos are as the folder structure is at the end completely arbitrary - how could it execute “call the person on this photo”, and similar level of integration?

This Apple AI presupposes their strong ecosystem, which no one has anything similar to. Google was in a good position years ago, but they are criminally unfocused nowadays.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by tstrimple on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @12:11AM (#40642233)
I know reading comprehension is difficult based on the overall quality of internet content these days. But I explicitly called out the business data Microsoft has in this domain. So why does Microsoft’s control of personal data factor into this at all? Do you have anything of value to add? Did you even bother to read what you are responding to? But sure. Go off on your anti Microsoft rant completely disconnected from the topic at hand.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by tempestn on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @12:54AM (#40642490)
Neither is Apple unless one buys wholly into the Apple ecosystem. I want open ai tools that I can truly use with all my text. But I'm not holding my breath.
Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by theshrike79 on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @12:57AM (#40642506)
"Open tools" and "Integration" is really hard to do.

I'd _love_ to be able to pull down my email from Fastmail, Calendars from iCal, notes from Google Notes etc to a single LLM for me to ask questions from, but it would require all of the different sources to have a proper API to fetch the data from.

Apple already has all it on device and targeted by ML models since multiple iPhone versions ago. Now they just slapped a natural language model on top of it.

Re:Apple Intelligence for iPhone, iPad, and Mac by dwighttk on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @07:42AM (#40645072)
How long until the EU decides that making this a platform capability is a fineable offense?