But then again, most people don't have the SMD rework tooling to be able to easily replace receptacles
This is mostly an exaggeration.
Apple has a $160 3m 40Gbps cable but Cable Matters has the same for $70 (and Trebleet has a 2.5m one for $50).
The 25 feet 40gbps cable from Pure Fi is the only I can think of that fits the "multiple hundreds' description at $200 but then again it's an active optical cable (it's not compatible with plain USB).
> the cap on the actual receptacle component is below $10 even for ones with support for higher speeds.
Maybe the actual C connector they started with is below $10 but you are looking at rather expensive redriver chips inside and careful engineering to care for the signal integrity at 40gbps.
Yep, that's really what I was getting at. They're generally attached to the motherboard (rather than a separate PCB) and most people don't have a rework station and the iFixit tools. And the patience.
The receptacle shouldn't be more than $1-2 on DigiKey last I checked. [1]
[1] https://www.digikey.ca/en/products/detail/gct/USB4056-03-A/1...
A broken cable means the cable will be replaced, a broken connector might mean the device is thrown out.
Now I am a person with the skill and tools to replace such a connector or patch up the PCB in most cases, but Ibstill think I'd rsther replace the cable. Thebexpensive thing isn't the part. It is my time.
> But then again, most people don't have the SMD rework tooling to be able to easily replace receptacles
And that's exactly why a reasonable design assumes that buying a new cable will be the preferred option (over having to re-solder components on a device) by most consumers. It certainly is for me.
Have you ever seen a broken standard USB port or connector? Me not once in my entire life, unlike micro-USB or USB-C.
USB A has those lugs much larger and usually also bent under the board or twisted, so the connector isn't fixed into the PCB only by solder.
USB C and micro USB are mostly designed for clamshell enclosures such as a typical phone - in that case the connector shell is supported by the enclosure itself (ideally through some flexible padding) and not only by the flimsy contacts/solder lugs.
However, there are plenty of devices on the market where these connectors are not supported like that because the designer has been an idiot - and guess which devices end up in the landfill with broken off connectors the most.
Breaking the old school USB A, square USB B or mini USB is almost impossible like this unless one applies really unreasonable amount of force. I have only ever managed to accidentally destroy a USB A port once like that by accidentally hitting a USB stick hanging out of it - but the board and the adjacent ports were fine, only the port shell and contacts were destroyed.
By some definition, that’s evidence of unreasonable force, but it definitely happens and should be anticipated when you put the device in the hands of lots of gorillas.
You're saying this as though there's a single design of USB-C cable to board connector. There are, in fact, many different designs, including many with "lugs" which go through the board, as well as mid-mount connectors which use the material of the PCB as structural support.
Framework laptops come with expansion cards that are on sturdy rails and serve as the world-facing USB-C/A/HDMI/SD card/whatever connection. The inner connector on the mainboard is well protected.
https://frame.work/assets/pdp/expansion-card-9240577483dc9e2...
I basically have to replace my laptop to use my docking station just because usb c isn't sturdy enough :/
USB-A is so simple, two holes and some leaf springs make for a satisfying clunk that doesn't wear out so quickly.
I used to think the same thing, until I looked into how the USB-C plug actually operates: The movable spring parts are all in the cable, so if there's anything wearing out, it's usually that.
Clean the plug/port (lint collecting in the back of the port prevents a proper connection and makes the haptic feedback feel off), possibly swap out the cable if the springs in it are really worn out, and things are as good as new.
> some leaf springs make for a satisfying clunk that doesn't wear out so quickly.
But once they do, you have a broken USB port.
And yet, very nearly all of the USB-C connector breakage that I've experienced has been the socket-side, not on the cable.
Now PCB quality can also wildly differ and the bonding between substrate and pads can be a weak point if the manufacturer of the device went for the cheapest possible PCB. But for that you have through-hole USB-C connectors and cables that should break before the connector.
So if your USB-C connector breaks off the PCB that is on the manufacturer of the device.
Funny enough, I've never seen a micro or C break :D
People would complain about the price of the cables, the size of the cables, and the size of the devices.
Small is fragile, and fragile should be replaceable.
I just don't believe that those connectors last that long in the real world. My personal experience and observations indicate that they don't. Or, at least, they're much less robust than earlier USB connector designs.
USB-A has failed just as often as Micro-USB in my experience. The only connector I haven't seen break is USB-B, but that could be due to fewer samples, since only printers seem to use that connector, and how often do you unplug/plug a printer?
In more rental cars than not, the USB-A port is somewhat worn out, which is really annoying as it can make CarPlay connections quite fragile.
I've also seen many USB-A ports in airplanes not being able to hold the cable anymore due to the spring contacts being worn out or having been bent out of shape.
The USB industrial complex made the same claims with micro-USB vs mini-USB; and are now doing it again with Type-C.
My empirical evidence: I've now had to replace two laptop motherboards due to a (mechanically) failed USB-C port.
Guess what I haven't had to do in 25 years? Replace a failed USB-A socket. Ever.
USB-C connectors are fragile and companies are making more and more large, heavy cables with huge connectors especially common with Thunderbolt or port replicator-type devices. It is a recipe for disaster and they expect us to fall for this USB Jedi Mind Trick again.
I’m definitely one of the few people lamenting Apple’s forced hand in moving to C on the iPhone. Lightning is incredible. It takes so much abuse and yet still fits like the day I bought the phone. Not looking forward to having to baby my phone’s port as well when I upgrade.
I should add that’s it’s not a perfect connector. Every lightening cable I’ve ever owned has eventually developed corrosion on the male connector, leading to spotty connection with the device. I’ve never had that problem with USB-A or C. Probably because the pins aren’t exposed, so aren’t ever touched by my sweaty/oily/acid fingers. That said, it’s usually a quick fix with some rubbing alcohol.
USB C is, in my experience, much more sensitive than USB-A to real-world usage.
We would also test how many miles a mouse would travel before the glides would wear out.
That's likely to be the exact reason why the reliability specs don't line up with reality: your test jigs are almost certainly going to be inserting the plugs directly with exact precision, whereas in practice people are going to just "jam it in" and apply significant side-loads as well as misalignment and levering forces.
It's not hard to design a connector that'll last 25k precisely aligned insertions by a test jig but will consistently fail after a few cycles of being mated by typical "hamfisted" users.
as someone who was involved with endurance/reliability testing of other physical products, I think you'd be surprised.
Randomized jitter and movement patterns are often replicated and considered.
Why assume that? Why not be humble and just ask the person with first hand knowledge instead of basically attacking their setup based on guessing?
Because for USB-A, the part that wears down is in the port, while for USB-C it's in the plug.
> If you attach a keyboard and throw it out of the window the usb A port will remain ok whereas the usb c port instantly gets damaged.
Have you tried that yourself, a statistically significant number of times?
I've had a number of USB-C ports break, I've never has a USB-A port break.
And I charge my phones in 99% of cases at home, stationary and undisturbed.
I have had laptops with only USB-C ports since 2015 and not a single one failed. I also don't know anyone who had a broken USB-C port. There is probably variance between manufacturers.
My anecdote to add, but this time comparing USB-c power delivery with the lowly ~8mm barrel jack. I recently got a laptop shipped to me by a remote client to use to connect to their network. I pull it out of the box set it up and I notice the usb c power cable has the slightest of kinks...
Of course it wouldn't charge. I managed to manipulate the cable, holding it, pressing at various angles long enough to use the device until a replacement PSU was delivered. A barrel jack wouldn't care in the slightest about such kink. And if it didn't work I could get another barrel jack from an electronic parts store the same day, chop off the old one and solder the new one on. Good luck doing that with usb-c.
BTW, let me also rant here on the (lack of) usb-c PD compatibility even between devices made by the same manufacturer at the same time.
As the above was happening I happened to have another Dell xps laptop sitting on my desk with another usb-C power supply. I thought to myself, I'll just use one PSU for both, right? But before I tried my inate cynism made me think "surely they would not make it so convenient for us" so I googled if this is a good idea. Turns out no. The PSU I had was 90W while the other laptop required 120W. I read stories of it simply not working, but also of broken PSUs. I decided to try anyway and the laptop that needs 120W psu wouldn't even boot with the 90w PSU. I thought maybe it would throttle down the components. Nope, a bios message said, unplug it or else.
So yes, I agree the magnificent claims of usb c resolving all sorts of problems are all horseshit. The only real problem they really resolved is that it is reversible. Also the ideas of PD and sending eDP over it were good, just implemented poorly.
Of course something that needs 120w isn’t going to be able to be be powered by a 90w supply.
This is not a problem. Frankly it sounds like you don’t understand how electricity works.
I use the same USB-C GaN charger for all of my devices including MacBook Pro and Sony A7RIV. It’s 200W…
Just buy a big enough charger and you’re good.
That might be true for desktops (and even these could very well throttle their TDP based on available power), but most laptops I know can actually just supply the difference from their battery.
I personally just wouldn't get a laptop that can't run on a much more compact lower power wall adapter. Being able to use a tiny 20W power brick in a pinch is great.
e.g MacBooks of the 60W and 90W variety I've operated on 90, 60, 45, 30, 20, 15, and 5W chargers, car adapters, power banks, displays, powered hubs, or other USB PD devices. Of course on 5W they can't charge while in use (even idling, where they ~maintain charge) and booting requires them to have enough of a battery charge to support the boot power surge, but it has always worked: PD has always negotiated to the best power the charger could do. IOW when manufacturers do their job, it works.
> A barrel jack wouldn't care in the slightest about such kink.
Oh boy I would disagree. I've had decades of terrible experience with barrel jacks, many of which were completely invisible to the eye. I would not be surprised the small kink would have hidden much worse internal damage or defect. If it failed to negotiate power that's because of an abundance of safety, and I'd rather have that than a fire hazard silently being accepted and internally arcing under load.
> The PSU I had was 90W while the other laptop required 120W.
What would be the non USB PD alternative? Proprietary PSUs, with either one of: non interchangeable because of a different plug, the same plug but the most power hungry computer still refusing to boot from some proprietary charger id protocol or hardware, the same plug but different voltage and either doesn't work of fries the computer's power circuit (I've had all of those back in the day).
So your current USB-C situation isn't any worse than it was before USB PD existed. In fact it's better WRT failure modes because USB-C PD compliance means it will negotiate a safe voltage (including taking the cable into account). Of course if you plug in a non-compliant charger all bets are off but that's no worse than before when there was no power delivery standard whatsoever.
That said, as demonstrated by the MacBook example, a manufacturer doing their PD job would not lock the computer out at the bios level - instead waiting to have a safe charge on the battery -, a kind of locking that also happened back in the day of proprietary plugs among the same manufacturer.
Therefore I do not see any reason to blame that on USB PD "horseshit" instead of that particular manufacturer.
Most consumers can't solder, and I wouldn't even know where to find an electronic parts store. I can buy a (probably bad, but better than nothing in a pinch) USB-C cable at a convenience store on almost every street corner.
I'm more than happy to never have to deal with barrel jacks anymore. The inevitable drawer full of incompatible (at best) or physically compatible, but electrically mismatching barrel jack chargers has plagued too many households.
> I decided to try anyway and the laptop that needs 120W psu wouldn't even boot with the 90w PSU. I thought maybe it would throttle down the components. Nope, a bios message said, unplug it or else.
Seems like Dell does not care a lot about compatibility then. This is entirely allowed by the spec for good reasons: The alternative would be more barrel jacks, and at least I can use a Dell charger for my phone or laptop.
It's definitely not the norm – my laptops charge even from a 5W USB-C charger (albeit very, very slowly).
> So yes, I agree the magnificent claims of usb c resolving all sorts of problems are all horseshit.
I can definitely see how it doesn't solve all the problems all people have had with connectors, but it's solved all sorts of problems at least for me. I really like it.
But these PSUs haven't got any receptacle you can plug a replacement USB-c cable. On the brick side the cable goes into the brick. That's it.
Fair point about soldering and general rarity of electronic parts stores. If things remained as repairable as they were let's say 30 years ago you wouldn't need to know how to solder, but you would have an electronics store within a short driving distance where they'd solder the barrel jack on for you.
A common argument is, but everything is miniaturised now, to which I say, so what? Microscopes and bga rework equipment has been available for even hobbyist for quite some time.
USB-A connectors are robust enough that you can't really pull them out by the cable. You have to pull the connector, which means you always pull them straight out. USB-C cables are smaller so some people yank the wire part of the cable instead of the connector, leading to a shearing force on the socket, which breaks it over time.
Broken connector ports are pretty much always user error. If you're a bit more careful to pull things out straight the port won't fail for years.
After using GPIB connectors (with huge cables attached to them) for some time, i tend to dissagree.
The idea that micro-USB and USB-C are supposed to be equally durable is the wrongest thing I've read all day. Frankly, mini-USB is the single most delicate connector I've ever used. Other than a couple PDAs, I never owned a single mini-USB device those receptacle didn't end up breaking off the board.
Splitting them into separate paragraphs with your assessment and experience on each would help the legibility.
> The idea that micro-USB and USB-C are supposed to be equally durable is the wrongest thing I've read all day. Frankly, mini-USB is the single most delicate connector I've ever used. Other than a couple PDAs, I never owned a single mini-USB device those receptacle didn't end up breaking off the board.
What do the second and third sentences have to do with the first sentence? They read like they’re supposed to provide the (otherwise completely missing) support for your statement that it’s the “wrongest thing you’ve read all day”, but they don’t.
Also, rated lifetime does not take into account things like tugging the cable to the side of your PC because your foot got tangled in it.
USB C is extremely fragile due to its size and not much can be done to help it.
USB C might be created to withstand more insertion cycles. After all it is meant to be used for devices like phones that are plugged in and out constantly. Part of this improvement is just more experience creating connectors (yes, connectors got much better in the past decades).
A cable connected to a back of PC is not being constantly plugged in and out. Nobody I know is plugging in their keyboard or mouse multiple times a day.
--
When I design my boards, I put connectors that match the size of the board. I don't put extremely tiny connectors on a very large and massive project. I want a connector that isn't too fragile for the project and this means matching it with the forces that you can expect.
We, humans, use different forces when around large objects than when we are around small objects.
Large PC standing on your desk means forces used around it will be potentially larger than forces around a small appliance like a phone. If you tug on a cable that is hooked up to the phone, only small force is needed to move the phone. And we are usually more careful around a small appliance like phone. If you tug on a cable that is hooked up to a PC, much larger force will be needed before you move the PC. And people are less careful and using larger forces when doing things around a PC -- a larger object than a phone.
Really? How is e.g. the HDMI connectors "better" than the VGA connectors? VGA connectors seems far more robust to me. Same with d-sub mouse connectors.
I guess the signal rating is better now but the old ones didn't need high frequency capabilities.
I am writing this on a screen where the HDMI connector pops out if a even touch it.
Just one more reason to switch to DisplayPort. The only downside of DisplayPort over VGA is that it's up to the connector model if it locks, not user input; but other than that DisplayPort seems clearly superior over VGA. Apart from the obvious signal improvements, slightly more compact design and the recessed port, even an non-locking cable sits far more securely than an unsecured VGA cable.
I don't know if this was to prevent people disconnecting things, or if the expectation was that once connected, things should stay that way for years.
But becoming loose without unpluging isn't good either.
USB-C doesn't have this issue. Much better
> tugging the cable to the side of your PC because your foot got tangled in it.
> USB C is extremely fragile due to its size and not much can be done to help it.
The USB-C housing is much more rigid than that of type A, so it should handle this much better. The thinner bar might also handle deflection better by virtue of flexibility.
Also, hardware engineers know that ports are operated by drunk gorillas. Incorrect usage and odd forces are considered when designing a physical interface.
Compared to magsafe it is not recessed (though that has not been an issue in my experience), but on the plus side it also does data, video and is universal. Currently using the same type of adapter for my laptop, phone and tablet with the ends on various chargers and docking stations.
They had tendency to cause sparking and I lost at least one phone due to it. The phone was fine but it lost ability to be charged through the phone. And when the battery ran out it became an expensive brick.
Put 20 V Vbus on a CC line and see what happens.
I do not know if the new MagSafe is an improvement over V1 and v2, but solid connections or non-contact charging are the way to go.
I generally know very well how to take care of electronics and those ports never experienced that dreaded 'vertical tug' you describe, at least to my knowledge.
P.S. I am not a shill for Fractal, but a faithful owner.
Plus planning to build new desktop soon, I'll still probably go with them (Define 7 is my pick so far), I think I had just bad luck since they have quite solid reputation and most other cases are not to my taste or needs.
Meanwhile I have a USB-C to USB-A multi-dongle to which I have connected my mouse and keyboard and I move the whole thing between the work and private laptop on a daily basis and despite that after three years only the plug part is showing signs of wear. The socket is fine.
Same goes for the charge port in my phone. Still works as advertised even though I went through a few cables in those six years since I bought it.
Side note: I too wish this brand guaranteed quality. I have two Fractal Design cases, a Define R6 and an Era. The former is quite good, the latter is crap - panels don't fit. Btw, they cost the same (fucking expensive).
The insertion cycles are only for proper insertion.
Proper? Please. Why not just say that the connector suffers from poor design and is difficult to plug correctly. Everything else is humiliating the average user, like my parents, with advanced degrees whom are not STEM.
If you securely store a laptop at the end of each workday then you're up to 1 cycle per day minimum. It will be more than that if you're required to secure the laptop during coffee breaks and/or if you work from several places in a work-day.
Whom to trust?
/S
Any sources?
USB-C solved this by demanding thick walls on every side of the cable's connector.
Not arguing that this isn't a good idea, but considering that the A port looks gigantic compared to C it seems those springs being a couple times larger also makes them a lot more durable, to the point where it's a non-issue.
And I've never ever seen a usb-a port break or the cable connector part.
> Standard USB has a minimum rated lifetime of 1,500 cycles of insertion and removal, the Mini-USB receptacle increased this to 5,000 cycles, and the newer Micro-USB and USB-C receptacles are both designed for a minimum rated lifetime of 10,000 cycles of insertion and removal. [1]
> To accomplish this, a locking device was added and the leaf-spring was moved from the jack to the plug, so that the most-stressed part is on the cable side of the connection. This change was made so that the connector on the less expensive cable would bear the most wear. [1]
I suspect that would make it the responsibility of the cable, not the receptacle, to give you that satisfying feedback. Which is good, because the cable is much cheaper and easier to replace than the receptacle.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_hardware