> My animal is only 33 and is very tired

In life satisfaction surveys, your 30’s are the most miserable stressful part of life. Highest amount of responsibilities, lowest amount of consistent reward, and it keeps getting worse until your 40’s

Apparently it gets better again in your late 40’s and early 50’s. By 60 you’re as happy as you were at 20.

https://www.inc.com/jeff-haden/scientists-just-discovered-mi...

(am 33 and also just ... tired)

Really? In my 30s I felt on top of the world. Enough wisdom to put my knowledge to good use and a fit body that only had the occasional ache. Everything went downhill around 42 though. Eyesight, hearing, processing speed, memory, sleep apnea, weight gain, hair loss, ED... I have to be on some combination of marijuana to sleep and modafinil to wake up. Exercise helps but the gains fade fast so it's basically a 10% tax on my waking hours to keep things from fading faster. Oh and when you're 40 something no one gives a shit. You're not old enough to pity, but you're old enough to be responsible for everything. You just have to keep slugging it out with reality until your mid 60s.

Exercise is probably the best thing you can do to improve your longevity. I don't have a source, but I don't think this is a controversial idea. Even long walks can help (though as someone who lives in the middle of nowhere, I can understand if this is not possible). I'm only 28, but I find that long walks on the treadmill (with my laptop in front of me, while I'm working) can really make me feel a lot better. I do have a general fitness routine I keep up with though, so that likely plays a role here.

One thing that has helped me immeasurably is taking up a hobby that gets me outside and doing some manual labor. I love gardening and I'd suggest it to anyone. I have shed several inches off my waistband since starting to garden and I find myself spending considerably less time in front of the computer screen just wasting time.

Getting up and going outside is a huge one for me. I could sit here at my desk all day working and be miserable... and suddenly I am excited at the prospect of mowing my lawn.

I mean at the end of the work day, I shut my computer... and that's it. After my lawn is mowed, I can look out and enjoy how it looks. Hell, I can work 10+ hours outside doing boring terrible tasks, shovel ditches, spread bark, weedwhacking the blackberries... but man does it feel great. I used to hate this stuff so much. Give me a paintbrush and let me go paint the shed, or build some crappy shelf to organize things.

I used to love excercise -- but a decade of power-lifting at the gym and going hard from 25-36 has destroyed my back/shoulders/hips... everything. Have been enjoying the longest streak of sciatica-free pain for the last 8 months since gyms have been locked down due to COVID. Still get out and walk lots, but I really wish I had been far more moderate with excercise when I was younger.

Yup. I wrestled in high school and college and very much destroyed my body. I lifted for years after in a way that wasnt helpful either. Now I'm getting close to 30 and I have found ways to exercise that are actually rewarding rather than mostly taxing on my body but man do I wish someone would have showed me this when I was in my 20's.

And told me that pain was actually a good indicator that one is pushing too hard with exercise.

I don’t think societies neglect for its citizens is easily tied solely to age. At least in my experience, it’s a pretty constant lack of care for me. I’ve had doctors tell me I’m making it up when I’m in shattering, blinding pain more than I care to remember. Had companies treat me like no amount of offensive behavior to outright bullying is a problem if I’m the victim. This is in 20s-30s.

Though I realize ageism is a thing. One of my 60+ coworkers has basically been told they’re too old for any sort of advancement.

Isn't this just caused by you leaving your 20's behind? At least for me I feel like I passed by my best years, and am only realizing it now.

By 60 I certainly hope to have accepted that, but right now it's still a bit hard.

I suspect the confounding variable is that late 20’s/early 30’s is when most people have kids. Happiness levels improve in late 50’s when kids are out of the house.

Kids may be “a complete joy and the best thing you’ve ever done”, but they’re also a huge financial burden, source of stress, and limiter on doing what you wanna do.

This is certainly a take.

My children, one of the greatest sources of pure, unadulterated, innocent joy, are the only reason I believe there is still good in the world and thankful that this floating rock continues to revolve around the sun so I get to enjoy them. The stress of the children and the hard work is so minuscule in comparison.

Got a better explanation?

I think it’s possible for both to be true. That kids give you unadulterated joy and also make you objectively worse off.

Generally, what I have seen, people report greater overall satisfaction with their lives if they have kids. Cant be bothered to dig up the data, but I have read about it a number of times over the years. However, deep in your 20s and 30s is when careers are taking off, kids are at their most demanding ages, etc. it’s rare to be fully established in your career when your kids are young. That means lower earnings. So, yeah, it’s stressful. It’s also rewarding. My kids are older now. They bring my joy and all that. My mid 20s were also really hard when my kids were born. I think its all pretty obvious. Kids are like type 2 fun more than type 1 for most people. I appreciate them and watching them develop was quite an amazing process, and it brought me a lot of satisfaction, but it was also hard. I think a lot of parents take umbrage at saying their kids made them worse off, it really depends on what criteria you are using? Financial? Life satisfaction? Other? Most parents probably don’t /feel/ worse off in a general way.

Yeah it depends how you ask the question.

Do you feel more fulfilled? Yes probably

Do you feel more stressed and struggling? D’oh

Typically we don’t equate “stressed, struggling, tired, and constantly drowning” as more happy. At least not in life satisfaction surveys I imagine

All of your ancestors raised children. We are machines, designed by nature to procreate.

The notion that one would be objectively better off by avoiding the very process that brought themself into being...seems unlikely to me.

Unless, we’re narrowly using the term “objectively better off” to mean what society seems to value: money, power, pleasure, etc. These things aren’t necessarily good for the organism in the way that having children is.

Hah, this is true. I’m going to keep this. By virtue of having children, I’m objectively better off than anyone that didn’t.

its not exactly true though.

happiness is related to the society you live in and your biology ... and other variables. its entirely possible that you can be both "objectively worse off/more stressed", which is generally considered to be a cause for unhappiness and still feel that the children were the best decision of your life.

its a complex topic and i dont think anyone can realistically generalize it.

there will be people that are actually unhappy because of them while still claiming happiness, as well as people that were unhappy until they finally had them.

I think constant exhaustion might have some effect on your satisfaction levels ;)

In my case, I’m also moving around a lot more, so I guess the added exercise compensates for the exhaustion in terms of effect on overall happiness.

Sure, your mortgage is paid off and you're probably in a management or other upper level position with less job insecurity.

Looked into this, since a lot of people would say this is crazy. But it turns out kids do seem to have a negative correlation with parental well-being. I found http://www.nber.org/papers/w25597 which takes a closer look at some of the possible reasons.

The article says kids make people (Europeans, anyway) happy except for the financial stress.

For the record, I (op) do not have kids. I am however married and very happy with my marriage.

lean on her more. Rely on her for comfort and if she reciprocates, it will make you feel better. You and her against the world, bonnie and clyde vibes got me through a dark time in my life.

I don’t understand why this would get downvoted?

In the age we live in it is entirely socially acceptable to be living a 20s lifestyle in your 30s and beyond. Few people I know are tied down to much if anything and enjoy travel, sport, relationships for fun and all the things your 20s are known for.

Just much less binge drinking, which is honestly a blessing.

The causative factor for the result of the surveys is kids.

Really young kids especially. It's weird because having a baby is both one of the most fulfilling parts of life but also drains you massively. I suppose the fulfillment is part of a biological desire to reproduce.

Right - I think we get a lot of in-built satisfaction and pleasure from being around or raising kids, specifically to offset just how annoying and difficult the task of raising them is.

I definitely have this built-in feeling quite broken. I left the door open to perhaps consider forming a family at some point since my first girlfriend, over the years it's only got more clear that I don't enjoy kids, at all.

I don't take enjoyment from being around kids, playing with kids or any kind of interaction with them, it makes me feel broken but I simply can't. Not even with my niece, my sisters get a lot of joy out of simply being around her, for me it's a massive energy drain, and it's been like that with every kid I had to be close to due to family or friends ties.

I'm so tired of feeling this way, now getting into my early to mid-30s and having to explain to people over and over that I do understand the ones who want kids, the ones who get enjoyment out of them, but I don't, at all. I never have and it's only got more cemented over time.

Lately I just put a façade of telling that someone's kid is cute, etc., as it's the social norm. If I was being very honest I'd just say that I don't enjoy kids, don't mind hanging out with people who have kids when they are around but I don't get any energy from having to interact with them.

It changes once you find or have something worth passing on. I don't have any kids or much materially, but I love to teach any of the skills or interests that I've picked up to any kid I get blessed with time with who shows even a mild interest.

Children, after about 3, are so much simpler to be around than adults. Though it can be draining at times if you have too many youngsters around, but your mind is chewing on an adult problem. What really gets the chemistry going is when you run into one where you see them running into the same problems you did growing up, or who has similar problems. The matching communication style but different origins make the entire experience somehow reinvigorating. Like a karmic balloon for your heart by helping someone avoid exactly retracing the life lessons you learned the hard way, and sometimes, they teach you a nugget of wisdom you'll kick yourself for not having caught..

Even if they aren't mine biologically, being a good (kind, wise, intelligent, enpathetic, independent responsible, creative, critical thinking, contributing person) is learned behavior, that the teaching is not straightforward for, but watching the lightbulb come on is one of the few things keeping me getting out of bed these days.

I like the way you out this, it resonates with my own beliefs and thoughts but I could never put it in those words.

Sort of like seeing your younger self in some kid and your advice being the cheat code.

Hao! Hao.

You're not broken. People keep asking me why my girlfriend and I don't have kids... I don't understand that question to be honest. They all act like I should have some desire to raise a kid. I ask them, why they don't learn to weld or do woodworking (usually I ask them something they have never considered)? Sometimes there are just things that people do that I don't want to. There's not actually a reason for me to not have kids. I have nothing against it, I just don't ever sit here during the day and think "boy, my life would sure be better with a baby." If you do, that's fine, I'm not trying to rag on anybody. But just fuckin' leave me alone about it.

People should never have kids 'just because'. If you want to raise a family, you should do it deliberately and have a reason why you WANT to have kids. Otherwise you end up being a resentful asshole and treat your kids like garbage. I know it's the best thing in the world for a lot of people... but for a lot of people, let's be honest, it's not. Not wanting kids doesn't make you an asshole, it makes you human with different goals and desires from other people.

Interesting statistic you should note. When people are asked whether they are happier with or without children most people pick happier. There is a positive correlation between picking happier and how wealthy someone is.

Interestingly, when asking people how happy they are on a scale of 1 to 10 without bringing children into the picture what you see is that people without children are always happier.

What I'm thinking is this. People are generally unhappier with children but certain things in the brain block most people from realizing it. How effective this block is depends on how unhappy you actually are. A person in poverty will be more self aware of the unhappiness brought on by their two screaming kids then the rich person. Not all people have this thing in the brain.

I suspect you rate high on psychopathy so you're able to see truth where other people's views are clouded and deluded by an endorphin rush. Like I mentioned you should also ask yourself how rich you are, but I think this is irrelevant to you given how you mentioned you derive zero energy from being with kids.

I’ll just throw out there that I didn’t care about kids, babies until after We had one. My brain definitely changed.

How was that feeling? Did you simply not care or did it take your energy away to be around them?

I've actively tried to change and engage more with kids for a few years, this dread never went away, it's not only I don't take enjoyment but it saps something out of me, it's quite strange as I don't feel that strongly against anything else considered normal in life...

I suppose it sapped energy in the way that any social effort does, but it was mostly apathy. I didn’t have any warm fuzzy feelings around babies, kids, puppies.

To say that I “softened” after my son came would be wrong as it didn’t feel like I was being emotionally “hard” before (as would be the stereotype for men). Something just changed and now I see/feel joy around young children (even if another part of my brain is saying god damn, they’re a lot of work).

Edit: All that said - try to stand on your own two feet. If you want to explore negative mindsets about kids, consider seeing a therapist. A good friend of mine made great strides sorting out his own hang ups with his childhood/his parents and is now a happy (tired) father. If you just don’t want kids - well, who gives a shit. Find a partner who doesn’t want kids.

It changed for me with my first daughter too.

Before that, crying/arguing kids (of e.g. friends) always gave me headaches and i never knew what to talk with them or how to interact.

Also when my wife told me she was pregnent, all i felt was 'Ok, now the ... starts' - i did not enjoy the news.

But in hospital, when my daughter was born and i sat in a chair holding here sleeping on my arms for the first time - it changed 180°. I constantly had a smile on my face and felt warmth and the need to protect here.

I also enjoy beeing around other peoples kids now and i am more open to "little jokes" to make them smile.

So it seemed to be a biological barrier for me, which i needed to be taken over by my daughter to switche to "parent-mode".

It is also quite funny to see the faces of colleagues (without kids) and how they react to kids-stories. It was the same for me before i had my own.

I'm not expected to be friendly and fun around adults I don't know -- so why is it that I'm expected to be friendly and fun around kids? They're still strangers. I dread spending time with kids I barely know in the same way I dread spending time with adults I barely know. I have friends with kids, but spending time with those kids is like spending time with those friends' parents. Yes, they're related to my friends, but they're still strangers to me.

Then I had a kid... and nothing changed about other kids. I still don't know them and I still feel awkward around them. But I do know my kid. He likes spending time with me and I like spending time with him, even though it can be boring/tiring sometimes.

I was thinking that, as I was wondering what these people are doing differently and wonder if that different thing was actually conventional rites of passage.

I was pretty unhappy as a teenager. Not as much formal responsibility (though arguably the responsibilities wrt study etc have more serious consequences), but more autonomy at least.

sorry, I mean now I have more autonomy; i.e. owning stuff/money, making choices wrt my life; but lack the free time I had.

Thanks, that's a bit relieving.

I'm 59, and pretty darn happy.

I get aches and pains from everything, though. My back is still aching from weeding a week and a half ago.

This actually sounds quite a bit like depression. Some inexpensive meds can make a huge difference. I know from experience.

I have tried prozac. Unfortunately, it made my tiredness even worse almost immediately. Doctor said this would go away after I increased dosage, but I couldn't stick with it long enough to see this benefit.

I've considered trying again but, it's a hard pill to swallow when the solution takes weeks to work, and in the meantime, you're suffering even more.

If I had to be honest, I question whether I am scientifically "depressed". The "tests" they give you are totally subjective.

While, yes, I exhibit many of the symptoms of depression I also wonder if I'm just ill suited for modern life. My interests are strong, and fleeting. Life seems to reward people who can hold focus on boring tasks, for long periods of time, even decades. I was probably a better hunter than I am a programmer.

Yet, here I am, coding for a living and browsing the internet in my spare time. Oof.

So get out there! I hear you say. Yea, if only it were so easy to uproot my entire life, leave my wife, and go live wild in the sticks where I'd be more centered and at peace with my core being. That's just not feasible.

The point isn't that I would be happier living in the woods, off the grid, in the rawness of nature ... The point is just that something in this modern life is missing, and more likely than a chemical imbalance, it is that missing element which drains my soul and leaves me exhausted and unmotivated.

That, or it's some terrible undiagnosed medical condition.

That sounds exactly what I was going through for the past 15+ years. I had many strong interests, but everything seemed like more work than it was worth doing. Depression and anxiety accompanied the low motivation. I chalked it up to being in a bad mood, and tried lots of mental health related things to fix that, with little progress over years of consistent effort.

Within the past two or three years, some health concerns started showing up - daily headaches, a near-constant lightheaded feeling, nausea, trouble focusing my eyes, stuff like that. Eventually, the near-constant nausea forced me to try some dietary changes.

It turned out that gluten was the cause of all those more concerning health issues. But to my surprise, it was also the cause of the attention and motivation issues that had plagued me for most of my life. After 3 or so days off of gluten, my mind suddenly felt so much more clear, and since then, I've been much more able to pursue my interests. I didn't get diagnosed, but the closest disorders I could find are gluten-induced brain fog (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7454984/) and the beginnings of gluten ataxia (https://jnnp.bmj.com/content/74/9/1221).

I'm not saying that you have the same thing, but it could definitely be a medical condition if you don't respond well to therapy or antidepressants. I wouldn't overlook the physical side of things.

I've tried the no gluten thing, and really felt no difference what so ever. I really had high hopes that was the issue since a lot of friends also reported feeling much more energy and motivation.

I did try going completely carb free for a week one time. I had no energy crashes which was great, but, I never really felt dramatically different mentally. While I wasn't crashing, I also wasn't suddenly feeling much more focus or "energy" (motivation, interest in work).

I was just kind of, stable low energy / motivation. Rather than, mostly low energy / motivation with some occasional really deep crashes caused by carb blasts.

Have you tried fasting? I have found it an effective antidepressant and stimulant. There are also some interesting health benefits (mostly to do with autophagy, cellular and subcellular cleanup mechanisms).

But yeah, I am also ill suited to modern life, and I'm working towards being able to spend as much time in the woods as I need.

I haven't actually tried fasting. The longest I've gone without eating is something like 20 hours.

I should give fasting a try though, I believe in the research. My hesitation has been that I am pretty low BMI. I seem to struggle to keep weight on even if I'm eating a normal amount.

I was in a similar state when I was about 33. Burnt myself out coding for startups and really got bored of programming. Found I was doing a whole lot of things I didn’t really enjoy and putting off dealing with some internal issues (for example, a childhood trauma from drowning and the fear of swimming that came from that).

Not that what works for me would work for you, but one day at about 33 I made a commitment to myself that I’d find a path through my body. Not sure why it was that, but it intuitively felt right. I had one ego melting psychedelic experience, started working with a swimming coach, dedicated myself to a yoga practice, got back to daily seated meditation, went to therapy, and journaled every day (did The Artist’s Way workbook to start that habit, which I have mixed feelings about but journaling is transformative).

It wasn’t all at once, it started gradually, but it started with a commitment that I’d find a way in through my body. Things aren’t all great all the time — sometimes I really dread getting to a yoga mat to practice, or wake up not wanting to sit for meditation. And I definitely have existential lows. I just am much better equipped to deal with things now.

Your physical practice might (likely) look totally different than mine, but I do think there is one that will bring joy and transformation for everyone. Maybe it’s martial arts, maybe it’s strength training, maybe it’s running, maybe it’s dancing, maybe it’s doing something like Wim Hof cold exposure training. Who knows, for me it was Yoga, but I’d really recommend everyone find that thing that gets them working through the layers of their body. Your 37 year old self will thank you.

> My interests are strong, and fleeting. Life seems to reward people who can hold focus on boring tasks, for long periods of time, even decades. I was probably a better hunter than I am a programmer.

Sounds like ADHD.

Programming can be good for ADHD though, since it has strong short feedback loops.

>That, or it's some terrible undiagnosed medical condition.

Sounds like ADHD to me too. At least it's eerily similar to my experience and I'm in the process of getting diagnosed.

https://youtu.be/WFkpICWE9DM - might help.

So, probably, yes.

I have struggled my entire life with these issues. The post you see here isn't something that's new.

Whatever is causing this is inherent to my being.

I've seen doctors, and had both depression and adhd diagnosed. The ADHD meds were amazing. They "solved" this problem. I feel better, I feel happy, I feel more motivated, I feel more natural interest and ability to hold my focus. I feel less foggy and tired.

But, I can't stomach being on stimulants my entire life. I hate that idea.

So yea, the one thing that works, I'm not willing to take. Hard to have much sympathy for me if I'm not even willing to take what is being prescribed.

I keep saying to myself I need to just man up, and take the medicine. I do it for a week, I feel great, and then I start to hate feeling different (even if different, is quite good), and I attribute it to being loaded with amphetamines, and how bad that must be for my body.

So I stop taking them and revert to feeling shitty and looking for a new solution.

You have my sympathy regardless, for whatever it's worth.

I don't yet have access to stimulants (beyond caffeine), but I've found cannabis relieves the ADHD symptoms when used sparingly (A very short hit from a vape, essentially microdosing).

Even still, I'm on a 4:2 cycle. 4 days medicated, 2 days off, because I find myself feeling stretched thin if I remain medicated for too long.

This fucked up brain of ours just doesn't belong in this fucked up world of ours. Do whatever you need to do to cope.

You might want to just try a lower dose. While it may be different because I don’t take stimulants for ADHD, I don’t feel like myself if the dose is too high.

Also, different medications work for different people. Vyvanse works the best for me, but I’m just after stimulation (for idiopathic hypersomnia).

> and how bad that must be for my body.

For what is worth, at prescription doses they are not bad for your body at all.

i'm not sure if you are still interested in pursuing a pharmacological route but SSRI's are some of the least effective anti-depressants available today. many meta-reviews have pegged them as not better in a statistically significant way than the placebo.

if you're willing to still give it a shot, see if your doctor is willing to prescribe tricyclic antidepressants or MAO-I's. mao-i's in particular are very effective but come with some dietary restrictions (certain cheese and fermented foods are off the table).

I've struggled, and am struggling, with the same thing. The only thing that helps me is to keep doing... something.

Also, talk to your wife about changing lifestyles if you haven't already. She might surprise you.

I had to try three or four before one helped, so my advice is not to give up too soon. Welbutrin ended up being a solution for me.

It is very clearly depression.

I'm leery of the meds, however. They have a tendency to be highly addictive.

Also, the underlying cause might be something else; the depression might be a symptom instead of the root cause.

Chronic fatigue syndrome is a real thing. Inflammation, or perhaps aftereffects of some viral infection.

Or loneliness. We are social animals, the animal is supposed to be part of a group. Yet we've created this society which worships the idea of the individual.

Agree, but in my experience medicine simply kept me from going too low. Some kind of therapy may also be needed, and a focus / prioritization on things that make you happy.

There's still significant value in not going too low. I have a sense of existential dread that makes me forever unable to end my own life, but that doesn't mean I haven't thought of it. I've been at points where I definitely did not want to continue living the way I was, but I didn't want to die. For those who don't have that sense of existential dread keeping them on this planet, not going too low can literally be a lifesaver.

Yes, meds don't solve the underlying issue. There is no happy pill. They just give you the boost you need to fix your life. This is shown by studies that show depression comes back after discontinuing meds, but not after discontinuing therapy.

When my partner took anti depressants they increased the need to sleep.

Mirtazapine will do that to a bit of an extreme. Escitalopram didn't, at least for me, in some ways it made it slightly more difficult to sleep. This is in my body, so everyone's mileage may vary. I found the massive drowsiness of mirtazapine so difficult to deal with that I ended up preferring the frustrating sexual side-effects that escitalopram has (and found it more effective for my depression anyway).

Lately, the buprenorphine injection I get once a month is all the antidepressant I need. Still has side-effects, but these are ones I'm very used to at least.

How much do you sleep? And do you track it or just estimate?

The single biggest improvement to my energy and happiness came from getting a sleep tracking device, and then making sure I slept around eight hours. (As opposed to being in bed for eight hours). I wake with no alarm, and have also started going to bed earlier since tracking this.

This may not be your issue, I see your diet and weight appear good. Could be some mental health issue or some other physical issue not currently diagnosed.

But, if you’re sleeping less than eight hours or are not actually tracking so you know you’re sleeping enough, it could be a big improvement to try doing both.

I have an apple watch and autosleep if anyone is curious about the combo.

I think Covid made life a lot less interesting. Or, put a bit differently, I think that we quit doing a bunch of the things that made life interesting. And I think that is mentally wearing.

I don't know if, in your case, that's the whole answer. You might find it worth while to seek medical advice...

Related, I was just talking about why middle/high school years seem to last longer than now. The variety of the time spent was probably a factor (Playing in the band one day, focusing on decathlon another). Life is monotonous these days.

Yes, I have a theory that the perception of time is very closely matched with your perception of novelty. New things, extend the perception of time. Seeing new lands, new people, new experiences, all place landmarks in your memory that make time real. When the days just blurr into each other your brain has a very hard time perceiving the time that went by. All of a sudden, a year is gone. You think about that year, and it seems like it just flew by because well, you have no mental landmarks to remember.

This is why time moves so much slower as a kid. Everything is new then.

Lately this has been on my mind. I do everything, diet, exercise, social interaction, etc. But I am still just tired sometimes, nothing seems to kick. Maybe my mind is telling me that this way of life is down trodden? Find a new path? Working alot has no value, and maybe I am missing out. Or I am just tired, and there is no where to go

Do those times you just feel tired for no reason happen to correlate with being after the times you ate carbs? I'm not suggesting that's definitely the issue, but people underrate simple physical explanations for stuff like this. Sometimes you have some deep seated insecurities and sometimes your body just isn't functioning but your brain isn't cognizant of it and can't realize that's the issue.

Funny you mention this, lately I have had a hunch that carbs could be something to eliminate from my diet. I havent been able to do it 100%, but I have kind of a checklist of things in my mind of ways and habits to change. Eating carbs is on there. I may give it a closer look

The keto diet is pretty forgiving. I did it for 2 weeks and aside from missing snacking and being annoyed that I had to check the carbs on everything (apples have a ton of carbs apparently-- who knew?) it was easy. All my normal meals are frying some meat in oil, plus steamed or fried veggies, plus a carb like noodles or rice. I just stopped making the carb and went heavy on the olive oil and voila. I didn't notice too much difference, energy-wise, as in I didn't notice that I became a different person full of energy like I see in some positive testimonials. So I haven't continued it. But those first few days after I went back to eating carbs I sure did notice the hit to my energy in the hours after eating them.

Mid 30s, When I started going to ~one meal a day (dinner), my sleep was better and I didn’t have the afternoon digestive tiredness.

I only have coffee for breakfast (black, dairy doesn’t feel great to me first thing), keep hydrated, if I eat a huge dinner (large salad,carbs,protein,fruit) it’s amazing how it lasts 24 hrs.

I do not go to the gym though (not sure if my eating habits would be compatible with being a gym goer, I do walk a few miles a day though).

I notice this a lot. But what can you do? I don’t want to go full keto.

You don't have to go full keto, and I don't. Just be cognizant as you eat that hamburger at lunch time that this is directly going to cause me to feel lethargic and bad for awhile this afternoon. If you still eat it, that's fair. Just being aware of the tradeoff was a step forward for me though.

The pace of life is accelerating year by year, I swear.

If not the pace then at least the stress level.

But the clock on life is ticking. I keep telling myself, dont stay still for too long. Keep moving.

Future Shock

Yeah that’s it.

You know when you’re doing something you really like all day, you’re tired and fall right asleep and get great rest. That’s when you know you’re doing it right.

Does anyone in your family suffer from hypothyroidism? That, combined with depression (it's a spectrum) is what was getting to me. I've since changed some habits, I'm taking 1 small thyroid pill each morning and going to therapy once per week. I still feel tired and lacking in energy from time to time but I have improved.

Apart from great comments already posted, please read about "long covid". I'm not sure if it's officially recognized yet but it's a strange illness lately and a large number of people suffer from it. One of most important symptoms is chronic fatigue. I'm fighting it since last year and one thing I can say is that the fatigue is different from anything I experienced in my 43 year life. It's crippling and even getting up requires effort. Caffeine in large doses helps somewhat but only to an extent.

There's always been a "post viral fatigue syndrome" with many other viruses and it is a known phenomenon, maybe it's just a similar thing with Covid. Only it affects much more people I think. And most importantly you can get it after asymptomatic Covid, so you don't even know you had it.

If you keep forcing it every day then eventually it gets easier. Listen to the audio book "Can't Hurt Me" by David Goggins. It will change your perspective on what your animal can take.

https://davidgoggins.com/book/

> If you keep forcing it every day then eventually it gets easier.

I can both validate it and warn that it may be dangerous. I thrived and grew by forcing myself through everything until burnout, and I've done it three times in my life. Developing a healthy sense, pattern and habit of rest is important too.

David Goggins, not Higgins. I got excited that this was from the rally driver :)

Thanks, edited. Got hit by autocorrect.

Anyone else notice autocorrect being more aggressive?

Like switching or => of and like not => now. I've noticed loads of these kinds of typos afflicting my Android typing too. Like it's like an auto-un-correct

Is the article not the exact opposite?

Very late to this, but:

You sound like a machine built for a different set of circumstances. Wartime, or famine, or slavery; or most likely, a heavily religious society.

I would guess you’re mostly nonreligious. But you have a lot of mechanisms left over in your personal acculturation from when religion was important for your ancestors. You took out the formal religion, because that’s not needed so much these days, but still have a lot of underlying mechanisms, like a conviction that there is such a thing as an ultimate answer, which made sense when the accepted ultimate answer was God.

I would guess that you enjoy learning and regularly investigate new things, but one of the mechanisms that generates your motivation is actually an old outdated attempt to find God, which you are no longer trying to do. Rationally, you search for the limits of the set of ideas you’re currently investigating, find them, and move on, in accordance with modern liberal arts thinking. But there’s a twinge of disappointment because you were being driven partly by leftover religious mechanisms that were hoping for Ultimate Truth. The repeated disappointment of the old mechanism leads to tiredness, and a feeling that real meaning keeps not being there no matter how much you keep reading interesting things on the Internet. There may also be a buildup of resentment that your trust has been repeatedly betrayed.

Just a thought this morning. I recognize a lot of what you’re saying. My parents were missionaries and it has proven impossible to escape all of those influences.

Friedrich Nietzsche has a similar outlook on society today. A good book I'd recommend: Warspeak: Nietzsche's Victory over Nihilism https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/55904256-warspeak

A very interesting perspective, thank you for posting it.

The key is to keep moving forward. Marion Countess Dönhoff had a great line about aging in an interview when she was in her 80s: "every day a little more self-discipline."

Dönhoff was an East Prussian who became an influential journalist and later newspaper publisher in W. Germany after the war. In her family, the attitude to life was basically shut up, deal with it, and keep going. She was an aristocrat in the best sense of the word.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marion_D%C3%B6nhoff

Edit: typo

Do you have a source for that quote? I would love to know! Thank you.

I'm sad to say I don't. It was in a German-language interview and really stuck in my head. "Jeden Tag ein bisschen mehr Selbstdisziplin."

She wrote a memoir about her upbringing in East Prussia called "Kindheit in Ostpreussen." The English translation is entitled "Before the Storm: Memories of My Youth in Old Prussia." [1] It's a somewhat wandering story but the account of growing up in a Prussian aristocratic family on a huge estate is quite marvelous. That world--for better or worse--has perished almost without a trace.

[1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/138357.Before_The_Storm

You've probably heard it before, but exercise will help. It does so much good for mental and physical health, it's basically mandatory.

After that, removing dopamine feedback loops (browsing the internet, social media, etc.) will help tremendously with motivation.

After reading a number of books on psychology and behavior it has become clear that the adaptability of humans works for and against us. If you browse the internet you adapt to that type of mental effort, where fast, shallow patterns of thought and action are rewarded. Alternatively, reading books, exercising, working on hobby projects, etc, all train you to subdue the desire for immediate gratification, in favor of future gratification, which is more healthy and rewarding.

Do you have money? Quit your job, go travel, go entrepreneurial pursuing something that moves you.

Living in some San Francisco apartment, building a career at tech companies making 6 figures a year is, once you have some money, a pretty crappy wheel-spinning way to live life, by some opinions.

This might be an unwelcome suggestion, but tell your doctor. This sounds very like depression, which is quite treatable.

You need to know that there are at least six different illnesses all called depression. The only way known to figure out which you have is to try each treatment, in turn, to see which helps. Usually they start with one with few side effects, or that works fastest. Some people have more than one variety, or one plus anxiety, or attention disorder, or all three. (These might all be caused by industrial chemicals we are all exposed to nowadays, stuff our ancestors never encountered.)

If the drugs work, but have side effects, know too that the side effects will tend to pass, with time.

I know others have thrown out other things, but: Have you been tested for sleep apnea?

What you describe sounds much like how I used to feel.

For a while, I thought it might be sleep related too. Even though I've always gotten plenty of sleep (tracked), I wondered if the quality of that sleep was no good.

So I had a formal sleep study done (where you bring home the thing and wear it).

They found nothing wrong.

Try avoiding distractions. I find that on days I go without the internet (other than for work) I become significantly less motivated and work is way harder to start. Not sure if that's even your problem but if it is then I hope this helps.

If you're constantly lethargic and tired, consider seeing an endocrinologist and having some tests done.

Take a 1 hour walk outside every day.

Your 'wasted' hour will be given back tenfold.

*when the sun is the highest in the sky. Shirt off, if you dare. Start slow (don't be stupid and burn yourself).

The energy is incredible. I walked about 20 miles this morning with the sun coming up before biking 6 miles to work and then back in the evening. And I know I'll have lots of energy to spare tonight.

Yes we are warm blooded animals but still very dependent on the sun and activity.

20 miles is just 6 miles less than a marathon, and would take over 6 hours at the normal pace of 5 km/h. Is that really what you manage to do in the morning before work? :-O

Thank you for catching me. No, that is not what I walked :)

So, um, was that a typo? Am I parsing your sentence wrong? Been waiting for an edit but it doesn't seem one is coming. :-)

20 minutes

> good food

Everyone thinks they eat good food.

Food is the number one physical measurable input into our bodies. So it boggles my mind that nutrition isn't the most studied subject, alongside maybe the study of living a fulfilling life.

Changing my eating habits has changed my life for the better. It took kidney stones (not recommended) to get me here. But even my most obese and unhealthy friends like to proudly tell me the "healthy" things their eating, and I don't have the heart or patience to try to tell them anymore.

But if you find what works for your body, food becomes more of a tool for living your best life, and something you'll defend to protect yourself and to continue living that good life, which makes the right choices so much easier.

Now maybe that's not what you need to hear, but I know it's definitely true for some other people that are going to see this.

> Food is the number one physical measurable input into our bodies.

This is the single reason why everyone focusses on food.

It is not the biggest lever you have on your health / wellbeing. It is the easiest variable to measure and to play with.

From the research it is quite clear that apart from gross errors what you eat does not really matter to any outcome. Quantity matters, but eating more can be compensated by excercising more.

I think we have it completely backwards, the killers are: depression, burn-out and so on.

Their symptoms are : no energy to change the situation, loneliness, no motivation to move, eating too much/too many calories ...

This in the end leads to all kinds of physical diseases.

Maybe starting with what we eat is a good first step to regain control, but it is certainly not the most important part of the puzzle.

As someone that loves doing research on this, you couldn’t be further from the truth. I agree the first priority is sorting out your mental health, but after that a quality diet has massive ramifications on your life.

>>> Quantity matters, but eating more can be compensated by excercising more.

A single donut can have as many calories as running for an hour. Unless you have fantastic genetics / young it’s incredibly difficult to out run a bad diet.

Then there’s the discussion of good calories vs bad calories. If your goal is to optimize well being, what you put into your body has an outsized impact on how you feel so it’d be crazy to not pay some attention to your diet.

If you have a cooperative microbiome, eating too much won't cause weight gain because you don't absorb it all. Eating too little of course is a better way to lose weight than exercise - that's required by thermodynamics.

> Quantity matters, but eating more can be compensated by excercising more.

Eating a little bit more can be. Eating an extra 1k kcal per day cannot be, especially as you get older. I’m in my 30s and relatively fit, and I can only burn 14 kcal per minute for 45 minutes or so. Maybe I can do an hour if I pushed it, but even Olympic level athletes top out at 20 kcal per minute.

How did you get the 14kcal number? Are there devices that measure this?

I assume exercise machines where you can not cheat by leaning on something or pausing are somewhat accurate, such as stationary bikes or elliptical or rowing machines. So my estimate is from experience with those machines over the last 15 years, and all 3 end up averaging me at around the same 14 kcal/minute. But I’m no athlete, although I do have a pretty low body fat percentage.

Also, I misremembered the Olympic calorie amount, according to this NYTimes article, Olympic cross country skiers can do 30kcal per minute:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/23/sports/olympics/cross-cou...

> A typical elite cross-country skier will burn about 30 calories a minute during training — by comparison, a 155-pound person on an elliptical machine burns about 11 calories a minute.

The food we eat has an immense impact on how we feel, and certainly has an impact on mental health issues such depression, attention, emotional regulation, etc. Every single thing you eat is the substrates from which all of your cells are made. The old paradigm looked at food as just units of energy, but that is not the new paradigm. What we eat, how we move, our sleep quality, how we manage stress - these things have enormous implications on pretty much every single health metric you can imagine.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/nutritional-psychiatry-y...

While I agree about other factors contributing, your missing how vital food is in the equation.

All of the things you mentioned are highly dependent on food. For example, high amounts of sugar will undoubtedly lead to depression and burnout, not to mention diabetes.

> starting with what we eat is a good first step to regain control

Yes, it is absolutely the first step. And it's one you have most control over. Focus on the things you can control.

> Everyone thinks they eat good food.

Yes, probably including you.

I am very aware of things like cooked spinach v.s. non cooked spinach. I pay close attention to what I eat, and make an effort not to fall into the traps of fad diets.

I eat a whole foods based, well rounded diet, that avoids known "gotchas" like aforementioned raw spinach. Oxalate are found in many of other "healthy" foods. I'm also very lean, but still pay close attention to the role of inflammation caused by insulin, and generally do my best to keep that down by avoiding carbs and sugar (though, not completely cut out, I am not keto).

Trust me, food is not the panacea of health that everyone espouses it to be. If you were dying of cancer, even the best diet on earth for you, may not save you. That said, a life of healthy eating is definitely a good idea and there's always the chance that I would feel worse, or simply die of a heart attack, if I weren't paying attention to my diet.

Diet is absolutely important to get in check, just like exercise. But it's all too often prescribed as THE solution above everything else. This often comes in the form of some revelation someone had, visa vi some weight lost, or some medical situation from their prior eating.

For some of us, there is no issue with weight, no medical problems, we cook all our own food (never eat out), eat well balanced whole foods, and yet still life is not magically solved.

> that avoids known "gotchas" like aforementioned raw spinach

Serious question: what is wrong with raw spinach because I eat it all the time

Oxalic acid [1]. Could cause kidney stones especially if combined with other factors that may predispose you to having them. Simply cooking the spinach can remove most of it.

Personally, I ate an amount of spinach that made me an outlier(think the maximum you could fit on a foot long subway sandwich often daily for a couple years, and that was also combined with other poor choices like gas station big gulp sodas.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxalic_acid

Wait, what’s this about raw spinach?

Raw spinach, some nuts like cashews, and other raw health foods can be high in oxalic acid. This is something of an anti-nutrient, which at best tends to reduce absorption of nutrients and at worst can build up in the kidneys and cause kidney stones.

As with all diet data though, YMMV. Some people eat loads of yaw spinach and never develop kidney stones.

Certainly if you have a familiar history of them, you should avoid raw spinach. Cooking it reduces the oxalates.

So... another case of "too much of a good thing?" I feel like the point comes up again and again... eat a variety of foods... everything in moderation? No single food is a cure-all or magically going to fix your problems. I'm sure if you eat too much of damn near anything, there will be some negative effects.

Yes. That's my take away after years of "paying attention" to diet and health. Countless articles read, videos watched, diets tried, trends analyzed.

Through it all, it seems a general rule of thumb is:

Eat whole foods. If it requires processing in a factory, avoid it. This includes many things that you might not intuitively think of. Vegetable oils, for example are a highly processed food.

Aside from avoiding processed foods, and eating whole ingredients... Yes, eat a variety of different foods. Eat vegetables, eat carbohydrates, eat meat. Just don't eat too much of any one thing, and if you can identify something that doesn't sit well with you, avoid it!

Massive amounts of oxalates have some problems so people freak out about small amounts.

You want to steam most vegetables to make the cell walls break down (easier to digest and utilize nutrients).

Steaming is not enough, you need to cook in water and remove the water (at least for spinach and kale).

Spinach famously contains iron, but less famously also contains a substance that inhibits iron absorption. So IIRC, it actually lowers your iron, unless you blanch it and throw away the water.

Spinach famously was misreported to have iron. Somebody slipped a decimal point, and everybody after copied the mistake.

Me, I don't eat spinach anymore. Never liked it to begin with. I have eaten enough of it already to last me to the end.

Spinach famously was misreported to be misreported to have iron due to the decimal point slip: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/03063127145356...

Nothing indicates that the decimal point error ever was made, but the account about it will most likely live a long and colorful life, just like its parent myth

Spinach is a fictional plant, it was described by Linné as sort of a joke but then everyone just went with it.

But seriously, you described three layers of misconceptions in this comment thread, how is anyone supposed to know "the real truth" about anything food related, if spinach alone is such a hard subject?

> Spinach is a fictional plant, it was described by Linné as sort of a joke but then everyone just went with it.

Actually true for most vegetables we eat, they're all the same plant (Brassica oleracea).

I am corrected.

Apparently there is no documentary evidence why an 1870 measure of spinach's iron content was exaggerated. The paper cited does not explore whether it ever was exaggerated, or what its actual iron content then or now might be.

I read various reports indicating that modern vegetables have much less of various nutrients than older, slower-growing or smaller-yielding varieties, and have no idea how I might evaluate such claims. Maybe spinach harvested in 1870 had more iron than highly-fertilized 1930 varieties, never mind 2021 varieties no one, to my knowledge, has bothered to measure. Or maybe not.

> Yes, probably including you.

Yes, I actually illustrate that in a sibling comment.

My point is that it's a practice.

And yes, your weakest link may not be food related. My suggestion is that, given that the body receives input from nothing comparable other than maybe the air you breathe, as a whole we don't pay enough attention to what we eat. In other words, Occam's razor points to food in most scenarios.

> Trust me, food is not the panacea of health that everyone espouses it to be

If "everyone" says something, doesn't that kind of make it true?

> too often prescribed as THE solution above everything else

No doctor every prescribed food as my solution. The spinach thing was more like a comment in passing. Maybe on a single page "take home" paper after surgery. I have been prescribed surgery twice, though. And both could have been prevented with food.

PS- suffer from recuring sinus infections? Quit mixing dairy and sugar (individually they're fine). And yes, that means no ice cream before bed. But if you do not want to quit, there's a survey for that!

Out of curiosity, what did you change after you experienced kidney stones? What was easy about it? What was difficult?

#1 change: actually paying attention to what your putting inside you.

Kidney stones were a long time ago now, I've been continuously evolving since, and I've been super lucky to have a lot of help with both the cooking and research along the way.

One thing I learned specifically from that incident was that:

Raw spinach != Cooked spinach.

Specifically, the former has a specific chemical that will cause kidney stones. This is problematic for someone on the subway diet who substitutes spinach for the lettuce, because, you know, spinach is healthier than lettuce... which is kind of true, until it isn't.

Edit: what was easy? Knowing the impact that little daily decisions can have (a few day stay in the hospital). Also, cutting out the soda was easy after experiencing that level of pain (the kind where things become a blur, you accidentally rip out IVs, sister passes out just from watching, etc).

Also, I've changed my diet regularly as information changes for the past ten years. Every single time I thought I was "being the healthiest I can be." That said, I'm not suggesting a specific solution. What I'm suggesting is becoming familiar with the practice of iterating on your eating habits to maximize your life (in more ways than simply extension).

There is something ironic about claiming to eat healthy and regularly changing your diet due to new information. I don't mean this in an offensive way, it's not your fault dietary advice keeps changing. It just aptly reflects how little we know about food and the effect it has on the body.

Nothing ironic at all.

That's how I treat anything that is important to me.

I like to ask questions. And the world is always changing. To think continuous change is "ironic" sounds problematic to me. I mean, that's why they little fat kid inside the large obese woman thinks it's still alright to eat cake for breakfast.

Edit: there is such a thing as eating right for your age!

I think the GP was referring to the irony of 'eating healthy' only to later find out that what was previously considered healthy is now considered unhealthy. Spinach a nice example of that - I've been eating it raw for ages thinking I was being healthy, had no idea about the potential problems.

Yes this is what I meant to say, thanks for the clarification.

Ugh, so you didn't learn anything apart from having yet another 'revelation'.

And that revelation is 'avoid raw spinach, but it's too late for me'.

You had Kidney stones. That does not make you a health Messiah, quite the opposite really.

> That does not make you a health Messiah, quite the opposite really

Nice to see how you interpreted things, but that's all it is.

My point was alluding to the continuous practice.

And the proof is what I see in my and my partner's fitness compared to that of our peers. But don't take it from some random on the internet.

Lastly, yes it's a lot of hard work, and yes that's why you're avoiding it. Good luck!

I tried the whole30 diet for fun, and it changed my body quite a bit. I used to snore, but it completely went away when I stopped eating processed food. When I started again the snoring came back.

Yes, the snoring and sleep apnea is a big one.

It was so sad to see, but weight loss from cancer in obese people does the same thing (cure sleep disorders). If only those people could have realized that before their bodies degraded into cancer.

Dealing with food would be so much easier if it wasn't one of our main sources of pleasure and relief.

Alas, it is not so. That's why adopting proper diet and nutrition is complicated.

I've adopted the opposite strategy: instead of constantly fighting against the pleasure in food, I have cultivated it. Expanded the horizons of my palate, chased amazing gustative experiences.

The result being that the immense majority of the food available to me is now "ok but not fantastic". I still take pride in being able to enjoy (almost) any food no matter how humble. But none bring me joy the way a rare fine dining experience will. And since I'm in no position to indulge on those on a regular basis, I'm never using food as a source of comfort and satisfaction.

TL;DR: appreciate and cultivate rarity (but try not being a snob about it)

> sources of pleasure and relief

So it can be. And I have food addicts in my family so I'm familiar with it. Have you tried cannabis?

What kind of good food do you eat?

The kind I've iterated on for years to maximize my body.

I wish I had a good answer, but it's similar to exercise. The best food for you is the one that works for you.

I also highly recommend no-food (don't try to twist this). Fasting for various periods is undeniably beneficial for men and women past menopause (younger women should carefully research preventing doing any harm).

Rather than tell you exactly what I eat, I'll tell you that I aim to minimize blood sugar, most of the time(exercise, and simply trying to live a little can change this). And that I also give myself permission to eat outside my boundaries occasionally, though doing so often keeps me on track in the future because of the obvious negative outcomes (which are a lot easier to recognize when you have absolute control over what your ingesting).

The science of nutrition is complex, but I'm sure a lot of programmers would be intrigued by chemistry and equations involved in metabolism. It also changes the way you think about eating. I was fortunate enough to land myself in a tough nutrition class in college, which can look more like organic chemistry.

Edit: to satisfy the downvoters: I'm mostly keto, always low carb unless it's some occasion where I'd otherwise regret not participating. Organic, and well-treated animals are also a staple (and yes, a luxury not available to all).

There are really so many little things that if you or your partner aren't significantly interested in learning about it as a hobby then you're undoubtedly going to miss a lot.

Note: to anyone asking what exactly I eat, why? You don't even know anything about me. What if I'm an athlete? Then what I eat would make a sedentary person obese. Not to mention, VARIETY IS ESSENTIAL. Ideally I would eat every single good thing that's available to maximize my exposure to good things.

Good luck to you!

You shouldn't be down voted. This is generally good advice. Human nutrition is still poorly understood and there is huge variation between individuals. The best that most of us can do is run our own n=1 experiments and determine empirically what seems to give the best results.

How do you empirically measure results for your n=1 experiment, where you are experimenter, subject, and outcome?

If I see comments providing diet advice with words like "undeniably", I lean toward downvoting them.

Obviously there's no way to conduct a high quality controlled experiment and eliminate bias. But you can play around with adding or removing certain foods from your diet. Look for correlations with how you subjectively feel, and objectively perform. You might find some effects that are large enough to be significant even with n=1. Or not.

How do you not?

You're living this life anyway, might as well try to learn from and compare your various diets.

Unless you eat the same meal every day for your whole life, I don't see how you could not learn something from it.

Cool. So what kinds of good food do you usually eat?

Nuts, seeds, low-carb vegetables, fiber supplement, occasional fruits especially berries (exception is a avocado every day). No red meat. Fish or chicken or turkey 2-3 times per week. Occasional eggs. Fish should be wild caught and either salmon or small like sardines, herring, mackerel , etc. Probiotic and prebiotic foods. Limited dairy and only non-cow daily unless it’s A2.

Coffee and green teA but no caffeine after 2 PM. Organic as much as possible.

Spot on, thanks.

Then why didn't you just say so.

GIYF.

Or in other words, "teach a man to fish..."

What did you change?