The confident students who aren't concerned with getting all the specifics of grammar exactly perfect are the ones that are making the most progress toward being conversational, they're able to express themselves and actually have something resembling a conversation, despite using the wrong prepositions here and there or conjugating verbs wrong sometimes. The more "academically" minded students who obsess over getting the grammar correct like a math equation are still struggling to form even basic sentences outside of solving homework problems on a piece of paper. I've noticed that I've been making much better progress now that I've been focusing on just trying to express myself even if I'm making mistakes.

Which is obviously the complete opposite of using a programming language.

His students were objectively less skilled than the other spanish teacher that focused on vocabulary and conversational skills.

One issue in the study is what a reasonable comparison is. Our ancestors would have talked about "there is a lion over there" and such mundane things all the time, so we shouldn't be surprised if we're just "nexting" those kinds of things with a specialized circuit.

Obviously that doesn't exist for coding, but the question is whether there is natural language that can't be nexted. I'm thinking of James Joyce's Ulysees or Shakespeare type stuff. It's weird even for the native reader. Does that activate the math network?

Also, isn't that a better analogy for how you program machines? You're telling the computer what to do in a language that isn't assembler, and doesn't have the same machine model as your coding language, with a heavy dependence on shorthands established only in the context you created (by writing functions, classes, etc). I thought the reason why a lot of people find it hard to read code is because you're inherently doing something awkward, translation.

I've been learning a new language as well, with the wrinkle that it's quite closely related to one I already speak. Mandarin is lovely, it makes me wonder why there are languages where the verbs and nouns are changed. It also means you can jump into saying useful things pretty fast, you are just restricted by vocabulary. WRT coding, this is similar. Coding languages tend to have very few things you must know (except C++ lol) to get started, but with a lot of reading libs necessary to do anything in a given domain.

Now that said, the idea of comparing programming languages with natural languages or even constructed languages seems very strange to me. Natural languages are tools for thought, expression and communication. Programming languages are tools for, well, programming. Even the relationship between the grammar of a PL and the grammar of a human language is distant (we often intuitively think of identifiers as similar to nouns and verbs in human languages, but in fact all identifiers are equivalent to proper nouns in human languages, and the actual equivalents of nouns and verbs are stuff like block openers, significant white space, function application, maybe the keywords).

It is a well-known fact already that humans can only naturally learn human languages, which have a specific kind of grammar. Even some clumsy attempts at standardizing human language end up introducing un-natural grammar that children can't pick up until later in school when it is drilled into them. It would have been truly surprising to find out that we can use our natural language capacity for something as alien as a PL.

One of my Danish teachers said that the move towards making people conversational is a fairly recent invention, and approximately a century ago (my memory is spotty on when the change happened) teaching was more geared towards making people literate in the new language.

In the early phases of learning a new coding language, I learn how to write lines of code. Sometimes it compiles, most of the time it would cause errors.

At some point it works, but a more seasoned engineer could easily find places to refactor it in order to make it more extensible/flexible, easier to read, less brittle, and most importantly to this discussion on coding language, more idiomatic.

Now, you could say surely I could've seen these by reading the docs and learning about certain library features or patterns specific to the language. But in my experience, I tend to learn faster by first exercising my brain and trying it out on my own take before having someone (be it a mentor or a tutorial/book) correct me so that I have a bit more context about why an alternative approach is better.

Of course, you also need to learn large amounts of library functions and their semantics, but that's more like learning who the people at court are and what their roles are than like the language. You could speak perfect French, but you still have to learn that you must call the Comptesse de Barry before calling the King if you don't want her to be upset. Even patterns are often more in this area of cultural/local context rather than the actual langauge - more like learning the difference between overly-descriptive prose and good prose is (which is why the knowledge about it also tends to translate better between different languages).

In both cases, when you get it that wrong that your meaning doesn’t come across correctly, it’ll usually get pointed out to you, either by the compiler or the person you’re talking to, so you can go back and try again.

Eventually, you’ve potentially gotten it right when the compiler stops throwing errors or the person you’re speaking to understands. Unfortunately, in both cases you may still not end up with the desired outcome as your compiler is “stupid” and cannot understand intent, only what you’ve written. Similarly, but different, the human you’re speaking to may bore of your broken language eventually and just move on.

There’s no perfect system for everyone, but it never hurts to remember the saying: perfect is the enemy of good enough. It doesn’t matter if your language skills are perfect, just that they’re good enough to convey your meaning effectively for the environment you’re in.

> Eventually, you’ve potentially gotten it right when ... the person you’re speaking to understands

I can see that I wrote poorly here myself, and here you (and child) are correctly correcting me, while simultaneously arguing against that happening, which is kinda ironic!

What I failed to adequately express was that human languages are a lot more forgiving of errors, and as long as the message is understood, you’ve gotten it “right”

Perhaps having an automatic compiler changes our perception much as an auto-tickling device doesn't work, but surely early levels of math and languages have similar learning paths.

Tldr: Compilers you need to be fairly precise, natural languages you barely need to be in the ball park.

And if the context fails, things can go just as badly as with computers, in the short run. In the longer run, people notice that something went wrong and are likely to go back to an earlier point and try to clarify, whereas computer systems are not great at it.

"I go store" is reasonably close to correct: you have a subject, predicate, and object and there is one meaning that fits far better than all others. However switch it up to "I store food" and now you have some ambiguity: are you saying you are storing food for later or are you saying you want to go to a grocery store or are you trying to talk about the food you purchased at the store? Again, a human being incredibly intelligent might be able to tell from context, analogous to how someone reviewing a block of code might recognize what a block of code is supposed to be doing, but in general you could expect the interpreter to raise an error, either of the form "bad syntax" or "sorry, I'm not sure what you mean."

If we consider "human languages" like legalese or diplomatic language, where the goal as with programming languages is to limit ambiguity as much as possible while maintaining the speaker's ability to potentially say as many things as possible, syntax becomes very important, and typically it's preferred that the interpreter raise an error rather than try to guess at the speaker's intentions.

Humans are "fuzzy compiling" to such a degree (and giving no errors or warnings to the writer) that it is hard to compare the two.

> If we consider "human languages" like legalese or diplomatic language, where the goal as with programming languages is to limit ambiguity as much as possible while maintaining the speaker's ability to potentially say as many things as possible, syntax becomes very important, and typically it's preferred that the interpreter raise an error rather than try to guess at the speaker's intentions.

Such a concept is not even possible in natural languages. Natural languages are so full of ambiguity that even native speakers from similar regions often confuse one another. Because frankly many don't realize there's: what you intend to say, what you say, and what is heard (times number of listeners). When listening to a non-native speaker we focus a lot of trying to understand intent from them. When listening to native speakers we focus a lot on what is said and what we hear (often ignoring intent). There is just so much fuzziness to natural language that it is a bit ludicrous to compare them. The fuzziness of natural language and strictness of programming languages are necessary features too.

> Natural languages are so full of ambiguity that even native speakers from similar regions often confuse one another.

These two statements are contradictory. There's a difference between not caring that an error is present and being robust to error. Natural language represents the former. Yes I might not shout "Error: finger shoes not recognized" but that error nevertheless occurred, I don't actually know what they meant. I'm going to assume gloves, but if their life depended on me getting them mittens they'ed probably wish I had said I don't understand. Luckily, we live in a world where getting things wrong is typically harmless, but history is full of disastrous misunderstandings. If you are doing something important like drawing up a legal contract, your lawyer should have no problem telling you "that wording is unacceptable." which is conceptually no different from a compiler's syntax error.

Natural language and programming languages are different in many ways in terms of degree. Natural languages need to be used in vastly more circumstances, they have been in use for vastly longer, and they generally represent an ad hoc development cycle involving millions of independent contributors. They thus have much more deprecated functionality and conflicting user conventions. But while different in degree, the two aren't really different in kind - every fundamental trait of one is shared by the other, which is why the fuzzy compiler for natural language will accept the terms for a programming language as a substitute without raising any error.

So let's look at the two parts you quotes from me and give some examples. We've conversing quite well, wouldn't you say? You understand me and I understand you? So #1 must be true, right? But have you ever played the game telephone[0]. With the general outcome of every game that must mean that #1 cannot be true, yet here we are. Like I said before, when communicating there's: what is intended, what is said, and what is heard. Usually these align pretty well. But small fuzzing adds up quite quickly. But it should also illustrate to you that what you hear (or read) isn't what the speaker (or writer) intended. Their job is to convey as best as they can to you while your job is to interpret as best as you can. Language being of this form allows us to express wildly abstract concepts, especially ones beyond our capacity to even understand. This is the usefulness of natural languages. But it is also why we created mathematical and programming languages, but why they will never be able to have the same expressiveness. You cannot program what you do not understand. But you must be able to talk about what you do not understand, if you are ever to hope to one day understand it.

I'd encourage you to read both more about linguistics and compilers. If you're feeling lazy, Tom Scott has some decent linguistics videos and are aimed at STEM audiences. For more technical maybe see NativLang. For a book, checkout The Unfolding of Language.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_(game)

Edit: btw, you did get the meaning of finger shoes (German) even with the extreme limitations of only text based communication.

I don't know if by "we've conversing" you meant we are or we have been conversing. Those two possibilities are close enough to one another that substituting the wrong one will probably not cause a catastrophic failure, but perhaps you meant to use the pluperfect to imply that the conversation was done in some "drop the mic" moment that was completely lost on me.

Telephone is not a game of ambiguity, but of noisy communication. If you start with cat you might get bat at the end, but you wouldn't get feline. You could easily win at telephone by speaking the same meaningless statement repeatedly and you can lose at telephone with a grammatically correct statement which is nevertheless phonetically similar to some other statement. "Blue blue blue blue" is going to make it, "blue crew flew you" probably won't. A fault in transmission is fundamentally different from a syntax error, more analogous to a letter getting lost in the mail or a mistyped letter on the keyboard.

There is a fundamental difference between getting your point across and getting a point across that's similar enough to accomplish your goals.

Consider the following statements:

"I want you to feed my cat

"I want my cat fed"

"I want feed cat"

"You food cat"

"Cat food"

"Weird Dog Rice"

"seltsamer Hundereis"

I am certain you know what I mean in the first sentence. I would be amazed if you could deduce the meaning of the last without further clarification. Between these extremes there is some point where your compiler's heuristics fail, and likely long before that you start losing nuance and details. Natural language error tolerance has its limits.

Now consider the following javascript expressions:

for (let cat in catstofeed) {feedCat(cat)}

var i=1; while (i) { try { feedCat(catstofeed[i-1]); i = i+1; } catch (e) { i = 0;};

var i=0; while (i) { try { feedCat(catstofeed[i]); i = i+1; } catch (e) { i = 0;};

while (i) { try { feedCat(catstofeed[i]); i = i+1; } catch (e) { i = 0;};

If you substituted the second for the first, you'd accomplish what you were setting out to do. The third would lead to a wildly different result but is still valid. The final case is ambiguous, a smart compiler could guess the programmer intended for statement 2's functionality, but asking for clarification is the safer option.

You are right that trying to have a human conversation with only a few dozen words and a very limited sentence structure would be very difficult - a vast vocabulary and complicated grammar is a hard requirement for a natural language, and ambiguity is thus unavoidable. Dealing with such a high level of ambiguity is thus also a requirement of a natural language compiler, and such a compiler is beyond the capability of any existing silicon computer. But just because a language has more words and more valid expressions does not fundamentally change what it is, any more than adding more processing power to a computer eventually makes it stop being a computer.

If you wanted to make a programming language with 50000 keywords and an extremely forgiving syntax, you could do so. It would be extremely impractical for programming a current computer, which is only capable of a few distinct operations and thus has no need for nuance, but it would still work, and damn wouldn't it be great at self documenting.

That's because that's not what I said nor what I meant.

If you write in C 'foo(a;', that's equivalent to saying 'ball foo with a' - the compiler really can't understand what you mean.

The equivalent of 'I go store' is something more like writing 'int p; printf("%d", p);' - the compiler understands what you mean, but it's bad style, and possibly wrong (you're supposed to initialize a variable before you read it).

Gender in German, for instance. It seems to be completely arbitrary save for one detail: whichever “sounds” best. I compare this to using “a/an” in English (albeit the rules in English are somewhat more “strict” in this regard.)

If your English grammar is wrong, I will catch you.

Make progress.

One thing I think I've noticed among a lot of people who have lived in English-speaking countries for a very long time is that, after their accent reaches general intelligibility and their grammar reaches a point where they're always quickly understood, they stop progressing and leave it at that. I knew an Iranian-American guy in his 50s who had been in the US since his 20s who would drop every article except when it was important.

I think learning programming by learning all the rules upfront and then trying to do sth isn't the best way to do it. Much easier to try to do something and iterate quickly learning what's needed to do the job. That's how people learnt programming on 8-bit computers - type a sample program and change stuff to see what it does. Then find something you want to achieve and try to change the sample program to do that. Eventually you understand how basics work and can learn everything else.

At one point, I wondered if this same strategy would make for a good (human) language learning app. Kind of like you described... rather than something like Duolingo where you have to memorize answers, it might help to have a conversational app where you see the results of your attempts in real time.

This is an incredibly harmful attitude towards learning, but it feels nice because it's a lot less effort than actually trying to read or listen to something to learn. It's just laziness.

Learning C++ this way is how someone would end up with a buffer overflow every 30 lines of code they write. It's the reason some self-taught developers can't give you the fuzziest definition of the difference between O(n) and O(n^2).

The closest approximation of this is how kids learn to speak, but this is incredibly inefficient, and they receive many years of formal education anyway.

What works for you isn't what works for everybody. And I'm absolutely not denying the importance of learning theory.

If you skip over the hard parts, then you're not exactly learning a language. You might as well just learn from one of those "Hello, my name is Bob, where's the toilet ? " cartoon books.

Its a bit like those people who learn programming informally. Most of them end up writing spaghetti code for the rest of their lives.

Its the same with languages. Skip the hard bits and your attempt fluency will hit a wall at some point relatively early on. Grammar is tough, but stick at it, it will eventually become second nature. Don't be lazy.

Language isn't just some word for word translations and a new sentence structure, it's much much deeper than that.

The only thing that is required to learn a language is tens of thousands of hours of practice.

That's not true. Most native speaks have little knowledge of the grammar and syntax beyond intuitive. They have forgotten most of what they've been taught at school, plus, they could speak quite well before going to school and being taught grammar in the first place. We acquire language by osmosis, not by studying, and even less so by studying the syntax.

The fact that they don't know the scientific names of the grammar rules doesn't mean that they don't know grammar. As somebody how's native language is very dissimilar to English, my intuitive language rules are no help speaking English. The grammar you are taught at school is descriptive of English and not a prescription. The distinction s very similar to "laws in physics". Nature doesn't really care about the rules we impose on it.

Learning grammar alone is not enough. Learning vocabulary alone is not enough. Immersing yourself to a language without a guide (like your parents guided you into language) is completely ineffective.

Grammar, vocabulary and pronunciation are equally important if you want to get fluent in both spoken and written communication in a different language.

Similarly the fact that they don't study grammar and skip the "hard parts" doesn't mean that they don't pick up/know grammar, so the original argument is moot.

YMMV, but the way I reason through while I read/write/troubleshoot code are mentally visualized and mapped in very different ways. When I compare what I visualize with the junior engineers I support, their visualizations tend to stop at a much higher granularity level. I strongly suspect that I engage in techniques that would be extremely familiar with and be on far more elementary level to those who practiced building "memory palaces" [1].

I have tried to teach this to the junior engineers, but the vast majority are simply wired differently it seems, and the few who "get it" do not sufficiently make it a habit to internalize it, much of which at first involves tedious pencil and paper.

I remember as a kid while blundering about a PDP-8 drawing on paper what I thought was going on at first with labeled boxes and lines (most of which was laughably inept and naive), then gradually transferring that to memory. Over many years of practicing that, it eventually became a reflexive habit. For more difficult problems I encounter today, I still sit down with pencil and paper and diagram it out to talk myself through it and build up a mental model.

For me personally, engaging spatial, motor, visual, verbal, and auditory senses together makes up my "visualization" in an iterative process that gradually internalizes into a pure mental model. That's why I prefer to look like a mental patient in the confines of my private office than at a co-working space or coffee shop.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Method_of_loci

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structuralism_(philosophy_of_m...

[1]: For example it’s occurred to me a few times that early Node interfaces were an opportunity to introduce monad types to idiomatic JS development. Sure, it was callback hell, but basically everything that touched IO had an Option type, just in the form `type Callback<T> = (error: Error, value?: never) => void | (error: null, value: T) => void`

Edit: I’m sincerely disappointed the sibling reply got downvoted and dead, it was a valuable contribution. To resurface, the sibling commenter distinguished the cognitive experience of code versus human prose from the perspective of someone who’s autistic. It’s a distinction I share (diagnosed ADHD, undiagnosed but strongly suspect ASD spectrum).

Edit 2: no longer dead so I'll defer to the sibling comment.

However, most of the people I interact with find my exposition methods curious in sense of structure. So, I shared this study with some of my friends, and they agreed with the study too. When I pointed out my surprise to them, they told me that I speak like a computer program in the sense of structure of exposition.

So, I guess I agree with this study in general, and actually would love to know what's going on in my brain.

For what it's worth, I am fluent in 4 natural languages from two different families and I'm learning a fifth language. Also, I'm fluent in multiple programming languages.

- Re-derive it by completing the square on the general quadratic

- Solve a specific quadratic you're interested in by factoring or graphing

- Try to find zeros with numerical methods

The point is, everything's connected to everything else, so it doesn't matter if you forget any part of it as long as you remember some critical mass.

To be fully fluent in a programming language, you have to memorize two or three dozen keywords and a handful of operators (mostly the same as standard math). To be fluent in a natural language, you have to memorize two or three dozen words a week for years. Not to mention understanding all the insane grammatical stuff.

With human languages, sure it's easy enough to remember that "nec-" means "dead" (especially if you consume fantasy novels / games where necromancy is a school of magic), but you're still totally screwed if you can't remember whether the word you need is "necare" or "necire," "necobitis" or "necabitis" or "necibetas". There's no rhyme or reason to any of it, your knowledge won't help you figure out whether that letter's supposed to be an "o" or an "i", or the difference between past tense and future tense and perfect tense and imperfect tense and tensile strength and gaaah why is this all so complicated!?

It's like if a programming language had 20 different versions of each keyword, and they were all spelled with one or two letters different, usually only the vowels are different. And they all compile, getting the wrong one just creates subtle semantic bugs at runtime. And there's a maze of rules telling you which version of the keyword you use if you're inside a loop body or a function body or a conditional statement body. Oh, and there are six different versions of the "if" keyword, and they're all two letters long, good luck getting the right one of those. And if your code's going to be executing two or more times, all the names of your variables will suddenly be different. And when you refer to a struct outside of the function that created it, all the field names are transformed. And whoever was writing the compiler put ten different special cases in the code for transforming your variable names, just because they could.

To me it feels a little deeper than just there being a "maze of rules". Your earlier mention of "everything's connected to everything else" resonated with me more.

In a sense, the expressive power of programming languages, and mathematical notation, feels very small. I liked the board game metaphor brought up in the top comment: programming languages and mathematical notation merely feel like arrangements of board game pieces (from an infinite box, and the rules of how they can be arranged are "context-free"). They don't have meaning except what we impose (ideally, assisted by comments).

A metaphor I brought up in another comment is that it feels "easy" to systematically translate an arbitrary program into an equivalent diagram, such that the diagram would contain 100% of the operational information in the program, and could be runnable as-is. (Would be cumbersome to input into the computer, ofc.) Whereas the idea of systematically translating an arbitrary natural sentence into a diagram just seems...nonsensical to me. I wouldn't even know where to begin.

Does that resonate with you?

we actually literally did this in high school. It was very informative for me.

Yes, if you try to apply it to some parts of "Moby Dick" it will be rather painful. :)

Others here, and presumably your friends, have talked about how they think of programming "visually", but they don't think visually about conversing in natural language.

I thought of a concrete way to describe it: it "feels obvious" to me that any programming language could be "easily" replaced by a systematic diagramming method, with programs translated systematically into equivalent diagrams. If anything, a diagram would be clearer and more readable to me than the same program in plaintext. (Of course, it would be much more cumbersome to input such a diagram into a computer than plaintext.)

Whereas the idea of systematically translating arbitrary natural language sentences into diagrams is...nonsensical to me. I mean I wouldn't even know where to begin.

I'm curious if for you, do you feel like you could easily systematically translate a natural language sentence into a diagram? Or, because you don't think as visually as people like me, translating a program into a diagram is not "obvious" to you at all? Or maybe this distinction just doesn't feel significant to you, one language being diagram-translatable and another being diagram-untranslatable doesn't cause them to feel different, they feel equally language-y to you?

For what it's worth, I agree with OP, and have a very "language-oriented" thinking style. I certainly don't visualize anything while programming or doing math (except for geometry and the like). My thinking feels like it's more based on constraint solving and seeing analogies between domains.

I clearly completely failed to communicate what I meant about "diagramming" a programming language, as evidenced by all the people pointing out that syntax tree diagrams work fine on natural languages, and indeed were originally created for natural languages, which is totally missing the point.

What I meant was that the semantics of programming languages are so limited and constrained that they could easily be translated into an "executable diagram", such as a control-flow graph for imperative code, or a dataflow graph for functional code. The syntax of natural languages is indeed more-or-less similarly constrained as programming languages, but the semantics of natural languages seems completely nebulous and ill-defined to me.

To use the board game analogy from earlier, you could conceivably learn to play chess entirely in terms of chess notation ("1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6"), without ever learning about the 8x8 chessboard or the 16 pieces. Chess notation shares no syntactic structure whatsoever with the "syntax"/diagram drawing rules of a chessboard and pieces, yet their semantics are exactly equivalent.

In the same way, the "syntax"/diagram drawing rules of control-flow graphs has no syntactic structure in common with imperative code, yet exactly equivalent semantics. Could you imagine a diagram system that has no syntactic structure in common with natural language, yet completely captures the semantics?

I cannot begin to imagine that. The semantics of natural language defy description.

It wouldn’t surprise me if a lot of it feels like brute forcing syntax and keywords - there’s no way of reasoning through it, you just have to knuckle down and learn it.

It’s also part of the driving force behind my app (link in bio) - it can take a long time (i.e. years) to get comfortable carrying on a conversation, so I want to help people practise in a less intimidating environment.

West Germanic: English

Indo-Aryan: Hindi, Bengali

Dravidian: Kannada

And currently, I'm learning German.

The "language" part in programming is really just a vernacular term for describing differences in syntax, and has no parallels with human spoken languages.

This was my reaction as well: what, they needed to do a study to figure this out?

However it's always good to have intuitions like this confirmed or refuted by actual investigation, and putting them on a more solid footing within the broader context.

My personal experience of reading code has always felt more like looking at a mechanical mechanism, or perhaps solving a paper maze where you see the whole thing at once but can focus on parts as well. It isn't something I look at one line at a time, I read it in structural blocks, almost a breadth-first reading. I see the if/else statement and structure before I see any of the details of each branch. It's a deeply non-linear process of going up and down levels of abstraction where necessary, and ignoring details at lower levels that are irrelevant to the task at hand.

As others have said in this thread: programming "languages" are not like natural languages for a reason, and conciseness is a big part of that. The two fill a completely different role, and it should be obvious that the brain structures involved are different too.

To illustrate that: the only reason people are surprised that programming languages and natural languages are dissimilar is because our natural language is ambiguous: it calls them both "languages" even though they serve entirely different functions.

Ruby’s syntax does seem to be informed by Japanese word order, so that’s nice.

Basing a computer language on a subset of English was done for several query languages, ranging from SQL to Attempto Controlled English (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attempto_Controlled_English).

Have you told anyone to grep, cat, mount, fsck, or sudo?

I'd say the more experience one has with a programming language, the more reading and writing it feels like a natural language.

You take ideas in one form and express them in terms idiomatic to the other.

Sort of like computer viruses and biological viruses.

Legos with the all the rules of AD&D 2nd Ed.

In human language, you can play with idioms, metaphors, double entendre, etc.

In writing code, you miss one symbol and it breaks.