I've been on Keto for about 8 months (before giving up), measuring my blood ketones and being in deep ketosis between meals (over 2 mmol/L). I've also seen values going over 4 mmol/L.
In spite of popular belief, nothing happens, there's no magic at the end of that rainbow for most people. If you felt anything different, there's a high likelihood it was just self suggestion, aka placebo.
Also most people are in ketosis before eating breakfast in the morning, because the liver's glycogen is partially depleted overnight, enough for the liver to produce significant ketones. And nothing will make you enter ketosis faster like skipping a meal or two (aka starvation ketosis). People with a healthy metabolism cycle in and out of ketosis all the time.
Also the idea that your microbiome has to change and your body/brain to adapt for you to feel any better and that it takes months ... is a complete myth. Your body takes only mere days to adjust to any dietary strategy. Also the dreaded keto flu is just dehydration from all the lost glycogen, which pulls a lot of water on its way out.
One other thing I'd offer -- for long endurance activities at higher heart rates (e.g., cycling in zone 4 for more than an hour), you absolutely have to supplement with carbs. You can go a long time in Zone 3 on a low carb diet, but as exertion increases, you burn through those sugar stores and bonk. I've tested this repeatedly. In case it's helpful to others, you can consume quite a bit of sugar on a hard ride and be right back in ketosis hours later as your muscles take up the glucose first.
You mentioned that it's easier for you to not eat on a very low carbohydrate diet. My main eating regimen is two feeding periods that are generally between 12:00P and 8:00P. My diet is mainly plant based, so very high in unprocessed carbohydrates - and I do still eat fish and am also not opposed to eggs from time to time. I have no problem not eating. If I don't eat at all until the early evening I am generally never hungry.
So I'm genuinely interested in what you mean by "high carb". Processed carbs and satiety don't go hand in hand, but a "high carb" intake of whole foods is not remotely the same.
That is why "very low carb" was introduced, obviously still not ideal.
For _me_, I'd say I eat very low carb, I aim for max 10-20g of total carbs a day.
Yes people tend to get stuck on "carbs" as a single entity and demonise it, which helps nobody.
My perception is most people on low/very low carb diets avoid as much processed food as possible, then get their remaining carbs primarily from non-starchy vegetables like broccoli, spinach, kale, etc.
T2D is a disease of glucose intolerance, but diabetics actually deal with two problems ... insulin resistance, which the keto people focus most on, but they also deal with impaired insulin action, i.e. the ability of the pancreas to respond is impaired. What happens is that the first-phase insulin action is delayed such that later insulin action is exaggerated, causing the subsequent blood sugar crash.
And this is still not T1 diabetes, there are people in which insulin action is impaired before the insulin resistance sets in and it's still classified as T2D.
Keto proponents love to talk about this problem, but it's not a common phenomenon, not even in people that are overweight or pre-diabetic.
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Speaking of which the Keto diet does lead to impaired insulin action, coupled with physiological insulin resistance — mostly due to the "glucose sparing effect", a natural phenomenon that's reversible — but this is why the ocasional treat can send your blood glucose through the roof.
When people on Keto start measuring their glucose, they are surprise to discover just how much the starchy treats can raise their blood glucose, however this effect is misleading, because you wouldn't get the sugar spike if you weren't on Keto ;-)
This is one of the reasons why endocrinologists recommend diets that are over 100 grams in carbs per day to T2 diabetics. Because a very low carb diet requires total compliance, otherwise those hyperglycemia spikes can wreak havoc.
Keto proponents don't like to admit, but high carb diets made mostly of whole plants can be even more effective in keeping blood sugar in control, in dropping HbA1C and in losing weight.
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> "I think it's the fat that most effectively satiates"
This is a myth. Fat might be more satiating per gram, but not per calorie.
If you look at the satiety index, the foods that are most satiating tend to be low in fat and many of those items are high in carbs (by keto standards). We are speaking of items like boiled potatoes, legumes or vegetables, or lean meats like chicken breast or cod. Potatoes are what you call a "high-glycemic index" food and yet boiled or baked potatoes stay on top in every satiety test.
You should be able to see for yourself actually — compare chicken breast with chicken thigh. Same animal, same kind of protein, different fat and calories amount per gram. Eat the same amount of calories on different days and see how you feel. We have a brain hardwired to seek foods high in calories and a chicken thigh is less satiating than a chicken breast simply because the former has more calories due to the fat and thus we end up liking it more.
More importantly we've got studies on the subject and high fat diets lead to less satiety and more calories being eaten versus low fat diets:
https://europepmc.org/article/med/9225171
Also see this paper on the Swedes:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281229072_Politiciz...
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N.b. foods like boiled eggs are satiating in spite of the fat — unless you're talking about protein and "protein leverage", fat and carbohydrates are energy macros and do not promote satiety in any way, unless you're talking about fiber.
So what promotes satiety is:
1. fiber and volume (found in whole plants)
2. protein (e.g. the "protein leverage" theory, which is still under debate, but at least we've got some evidence for it)
3. blandness
Reasons (2) and (3) are the real reasons Keto works short term. But appetite always comes back, esp in a high fat diet. When I was on Keto I used to binge eat plain full fat butter and used to eat 1 Kg of grilled fatty pork cuts in a single sitting. And I gained weight of course.
That combined with a huge uptick in constantly eating all the time, sugary drinks, etc... eating 6-8 times a day. Most people can get away with 1-2 meals a day and a small snack or coffee outside those main meal(s). Longer fasting has historically been involuntary and/or religious, has other benefits that should be included pretty regularly as well.
I think animal proteins and fats are good to keep, even just eggs, butter and fish. There's a lot of nutrition in egg yolks, kidney and/or liver meat and it isn't the same from vegetable sources. Animal protein is also a bit different in terms of absorption than vegetable as well. It's not hard for people to get 100-150g of appropriate protein a day on average either and doesn't have to come from higher animals.
There is no good evidence for example that "Omega-6" rich oils are inflammatory, quite the contrary, we've got several systematic reviews and meta analyses claiming they are not. And the n-6 : n-3 ratio is completely arbitrary (most ratios in nutrition are). We've got much better evidence for example that saturated fat does raise LDL and that LDL is causal in heart disease.
There's also nothing wrong with eating 6 times per day, unless you end up eating too many calories. If you meant to say that people eat too much, then yes, we do eat too much, but meal frequency has nothing to do with it. Many people can easily eat 4000 kcal in a single meal and those with binging problems often do, so while reducing meal frequency can be a good strategy for some people, it's a poor strategy for others. E.g. OMAD is a recipe for eating disorders.
We do agree that animal products can be part of a healthy diet, it's much easier to get adequate protein from lean meat, eggs are a good source of choline, folate, vitamin A and dairy is a good source of calcium. In the standard diets of the western worlds however, we have no shortage of animal products, what we have is a shortage of whole plants.
As far as over-eating and meal frequency... hormones are part of the calculation, you can clear more calories with less hormone response in fewer meals. If you look at tribal cultures with a food abundance (near coastal fish) would only eat once a day or so. Spiking glucose/insuline more times a day isn't so great in general.
I think we're mostly on the same page... I'm more than happy to see people eat more from whole plant meals with a more nose to tail approach to meat consumption. Not to mention a huge a shift in the types and qualities of meat and fish.
I think the level of refined sugars, oils and modern grains are a big problem... so is, for that matter, poorly raised animals and mono-farming in general. Optimizing for yield and efficiency seems to have lost a lot along the way imo.
One aside, while some can eat massively in a single meal... it's very hard for most people to overeat in a single meal. Harder still to do it consuming meat/eggs/fish and greens. Calories count, calories are king in terms of what we eat... and hormone response is queen.
I quit that workout because I got /bored/.
I've done 4 hour MMA training sessions in Keto, no endurance issues at all, no HR strap though so no #s.
Long-term steady endurance massively increases though. If there's no bursting, I find that I can workout for hours on keto, it's amazing. It's kind of like the difference between regular diesel engines and gasoline+nitrous engines. Patience and focus seriously improve as well.
My limited understanding is that glycogen stores in muscles get depleted on full keto and must be replaced with some kind of carb intake, whether through excess protein-to-carb conversion or through normal carb intake, that "burst" energy simply isn't going to be there.
Example: I'm on the bottom in full mount and I know I need to burst to sweep somehow or shrimp out after bucking. Energy just wasn't there, time and time again. I could do jumping jacks forever, though.
I'd love to hear your feedback on this, like, what your protein intake is vs. fats.
My experience includes BJJ! :)
Of note I've been keto adapted for years, so I am likely an edge case.
That HR recording I linked to is of a kickboxing endurance bag workout (Bas Rutten's routine if you are at all familiar with it), nothing but explosive power against a bag, every punch 100%.
Now at the end of it, can I lift as heavy? No, carb load and I'm adding an extra few pounds to the bars, but it isn't a huge difference.
> I'd love to hear your feedback on this, like, what your protein intake is vs. fats.
I stopped tracking years ago. Probably should start tracking again just to lose some extra lbs. :) Outside of weight loss I do keto just because of the insane energy levels.
The kicker about BJJ is that after class, these guys who are much stronger than me are winded and I'm walking around upset no one wants to keep training. Everyone is doing crap like sitting down and resting!
>The kicker about BJJ is that after class, these guys who are much stronger than me are winded and I'm walking around upset no one wants to keep training. Everyone is doing crap like sitting down and resting!
As you probably know, they are Doing It Wrong. Most of the higher belts I've known are skinny (sometimes barrel-fat) and not mega-huge muscular because their technique is orders of magnitude better so they don't need to rely on muscling everything. My main professor always skips the heavy warmup on his days and just does enough to get the blood flowing and joints warm which is funny - he's really good.
I really started to think about this once I got my ass handed to me by a teenage girl purple belt who couldn't have weighed more than 90 lbs wet. I was trying on purpose not to use my size and strength but quickly realized my technique was much worse than hers. One of the great benefits of BJJ is this kind of instilled humility. Not much room for silverback gorilla bullies.
Now, competition, particularly no-gi, is a whole different ball game in my experience. There, maximizing strength to weight ratio is of crucial importance because the other person is supposed to be of roughly equal technique and when it comes down to it, whoever's stronger usually has a better chance.
To throw my own anecdotes in, I’ve done more than a few 24-48 hour efforts (backpacking, mountaineering, cycling, climbing) with a range of dietary strategies and so far I’ve felt the best with bacon, hard boiled eggs (with some salt and pepper), and water.
Have you tried anything else health-wise (diets, medicine, exercise plan etc)after Keto? And is it working? If it is, its most likely just a placebo and not really beneficial in of itself. Thats according to the crux of your argument: if something works, its very likely just a placebo.
There are two claims here that are pretty important and contrary to my understanding and experience: 1) Liver is depleted after usual sleep 2) Fasting is the fastest way to enter ketosis
Even when practicing a very low carb diet your liver is "topped up" through gluconeogenesis while you are sleeping.
If by ketosis you mean the body is producing enough ketones to power itself than the fastest way I know of kickstarting that process is not having carbs for 6 hours then going for a run or lifting heavy weights.
You don't need to starve yourself, you just need to put your body in a scenario where the energy demands overtake the available energy in the form of blood glucose (and strain the stores in the muscle and liver).
Not really, gluconeogenesis is a pretty inefficient pathway, from my reading on the subject you can't make more than 200 calories of glucose per day via gluconeogenesis, which is pretty low and definitely not enough to replenish the glycogen stores, only enough to keep them from being completely depleted. I'm struggling to find the reference. But you can also ask most doctors — if you give urine or blood in the morning, nobody raises an eyebrow when seeing ketone readings because it's a known effect.
Also note that I'm not saying that all glycogen is depleted. Glycogen stores are never depleted, as the glucose sparing effect eventually kicks in (aka physiological insulin resistance) and yes, some of it is replenished via gluconeogenesis.
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> by ketosis you mean the body is producing enough ketones to power itself
No, ketosis is a metabolic state in which the liver is producing ketones in response to a short supply of glucose, with significant ketones being detectable in the blood or urine. That's it. And availability of ketones in the blood stream is enough for them to be used.
There is a threshold of 0.5 mmol/L of ketones that people in the keto community use, but it's completely arbitrary — nobody knows why that threshold isn't 0.3 mmol/L. Regardless, I'm at 0.5 mmol/L in the morning while eating between 150 and 200 grams of carbs per day.
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> "You don't need to starve yourself, you just need to put your body in a scenario where the energy demands overtake the available energy in the form of blood glucose (and strain the stores in the muscle and liver)."
We agree here — yes, once the glycogen stores are depleted enough, the liver starts producing ketones and of course exercise can do the trick.
There is one caveat ... during exercise ketone usage also goes up, and exercise also drives your blood sugar up, so if you measure the ketones immediately after exercise, the readings can be misleading.
But yes, active people can burn through their glycogen stores really fast.
I absolutely noticed a change, and there's no way it's just a placebo. The change I've noticed is that I don't get hungry nearly as quickly as I do when I'm eating carbs, and I don't get "hangry" anymore, either. I do still get hungry, but it's a much more mild effect.
I also used to get headaches quite frequently, especially if I waited too long to eat. That has also stopped since I started doing keto.
> Also the idea that your microbiome has to change and your body/brain to adapt for you to feel any better and that it takes months ... is a complete myth. Your body takes only mere days to adjust to any dietary strategy. Also the dreaded keto flu is just dehydration from all the lost glycogen, which pulls a lot of water on its way out.
Is this something you have a source for, or just something you believe?
> Also most people are in ketosis before eating breakfast in the morning, because the liver's glycogen is partially depleted overnight, enough for the liver to produce significant ketones. And nothing will make you enter ketosis faster like skipping a meal or two (aka starvation ketosis). People with a healthy metabolism cycle in and out of ketosis all the time.
I'm not sure I buy this. Usually if I've been eating carbs for a while, and try to get back into ketosis, it takes me a day or two. If you don't eat for 16 hours, then sure, maybe you enter ketosis near the end, but most people don't go that long without food.
Not being hungry until meal time? Placebo effect caused me to not want a nap in the afternoon? Did I imagine the 60 pounds weight loss, too?
No, it was probably the adrenaline being pumped due to the caloric deficit — without which you wouldn't have lost weight — or at the very least your diet being eucaloric, because eating too much does make one sleepy ;-)
> "Not being hungry until meal time?"
This can be attributed to — (1) extra proteins compared with your regular diet and (2) eating foods that aren't highly palatable. (speaking of which, high carb diets made of whole plants also have the advantage of fiber and volume)
There is a lot of evidence in the scientific community for these claims, while there is none for any specific effects of the keto diet. This isn't about anecdotes, although keto proponents sure seem to have a lot of them.
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> "Did I imagine the 60 pounds weight loss, too?"
Good for you, I lost 55 pounds too (not on keto), I know how challenging losing fat can be. And I'm genuinely glad to see other people succeeding.
If you feel good, keep doing whatever it is you're doing. If not, then know there are plenty of other options.
The keto community has recently learned how to make good meals, it was pretty bad for awhile, but I'd like to note that nearly all Indian curry dishes are keto friendly.
And while ymmv, I consider them rather palatable.
Lots of Chinese dishes as well, obv. not noodle and rice dishes, but a large swath of Chinese cuisine is perfectly keto friendly.
Heck my local ramen shop now offers keto friendly noodles.
Long term all weight loss diets are equally disappointing, because appetite does come back and compliance becomes an issue. At maintenance we can actually tolerate a lot, esp if we are lightly active, but if you want to lose weight, striving for better tasting food is a poor strategy.
An excelent book on this subject is "The Hungry Brain" by Stephan Guyenet:
https://www.stephanguyenet.com/thehungrybrain/
This guy's blog is awesome too and if you're interested for example into why the "carbohydrate insulin model" is wrong, checkout this list of references produced by him:
https://www.stephanguyenet.com/references-for-my-debate-with...
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We have a brain hard-wired to seek foods high in calories and salt and we also prefer diversity. People on keto when looking at sweets, like brownies, they see the carbs, however the bigger problem is the fat + refined carbs combination. All junk food is a combination of fat + refined carbs, because this is a recipe for making the food hyper-palatable. This goes for French fries too, it's not the actual potato, because potatoes have a lot of water, a lot of volume and if you eat them boiled, few things are as satiating. Combine potatoes with fat by deep frying, then add some salt and both calories and palatability goes through the roof.
How can you make veggies and greens, like spinach or brocoly, tasty? You add some fat. Incidentally this is how you can trick your brain to like greens.
Most people have issues losing weight while eating brownies, not because you can't lose weight when eaten in moderation, but because it's so hard to not binge on brownies, especially if you have emotional issues too (and many overweight people have emotional issues), foods like brownies being perfect as a comfort food. You can binge on fruits, veggies, lean meat or beans of course, but it doesn't have the same impact.
(N.b. I love brownies, brownies are awesome, they just aren't good to have around when losing weight)
People in the keto community talk about carb cravings, however there is such a thing as craving fat or any food high in calories too, because it's not really about any particular macro nutrient. When I was on keto, I used to binge eat plain full fat butter. I also used to eat 1 Kg of grilled pork chops in a single seating and then I was hungry again at the next meal.
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On the whole however, both low carb diets and low fat diets lead to a spontaneous loss in appetite in many people. It's why they work short term.
This doesn't necessarily last for long, because you get used to what you eat and because we tend to diversify our meals in our search for better tasting food. Then the dreaded plateau appears, which can happen pretty fast on keto, esp due to the propaganda that calories don't matter.
Such diets are still better than the SAD, but you'd get a similar bang for the buck in terms of satiety and healthfulness ... if you just stuck with whole foods at least 80% of the time.
Another useful benefit of Keto is that the rules are really simple.
That sticking with whole foods 80% of the time is the hard part, there is temptation everywhere, e.g. the Girlscout cookies on desks at work, free granola bars, etc etc. A decent % of our society is geared towards getting people to eat more.
Keto says "you can't eat any of that junk". Just, flat out. No points, no "a little bit of ice cream", just, no. The easy calories are not an option.
> Then the dreaded plateau appears, which can happen pretty fast on keto, esp due to the propaganda that calories don't matter.
Plateau's happen for many reasons, and a lot of them are not yet fully understood. For years there were stories of people eating below maintenance who aren't losing weight, and just recently science has learned that gut biomes can drop (increase?) their efficiency and result in a lower BMR than normal.
Of course at the end of the day, getting a 6 pack requires being hungry. There is no getting around that! (Well other than being under 24 and very physically active, but that's a very time boxes solution! ;) )
> "Keto says "you can't eat any of that junk". Just, flat out. No points, no "a little bit of ice cream", just, no. The easy calories are not an option."
This is also a recipe for getting an eating disorder. You can't stick with this mentality unless you end up thinking that carbs are poison, which is factually wrong and a very unhealthy mentality. And do you have the same mentality about fats? Those are "easy calories" too.
Sometimes it's OK to just have one cookie. If that doesn't work for you, fine, I've been there and I can understand wanting 100% compliance, but personally I feel much better since giving up on such a goal — because no, food is not poison, food is not alcohol, chronic overeating is the problem (aka energy poisoning) and chronic overeating can happen once you develop what they call "an unhealthy relationship with food".
I now naturally want whole foods, because I get to eat more volume and it keeps me full for longer. Once I got the taste of it, I don't need to fear food categories in order to stay on path.
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> "For years there were stories of people eating below maintenance who aren't losing weight"
There's no such thing. People that eat below maintenance and not losing weight are either:
(1) underestimating their calories intake or
(2) have overestimated their maintenance requirements
If you're not losing weight, then by definition you're not eating below maintenance. And note that it is true that some medical conditions, like hypothyroidism, lead to a lowered metabolic rate (the thyroid is responsible for raising your body temperature for example), but in all cases we aren't talking about more than 200 - 300 kcal. So in order to lose weight, even people suffering from hypothyroidism can simply eat 2-300 kcal less — it's harder but it can be done. And if you claim a bigger penalty than that, you start breaking the laws of physics.
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> "just recently science has learned that gut biomes can drop (increase?) their efficiency and result in a lower BMR than normal"
No, that did not happen. The research you're talking about was inconclusive and it was done IN MICE.
There are indications that the health of the microbiome is important, however the associations between the _human_ microbiome and obesity are weak and don't appear to be causal.
I.e. people that are obese tend to eat a less diverse diet (less whole plants). Such people also have less diversity in their microbiome. You cannot infer from that the microbiome is what caused their obesity, the huge confounder in such associations being the diet itself.
I think keto and carnivore are really better depending on one's specific metabolic and/or autoimmune issues. For most people, eating less processed crap (junk/fast food and trans fats particularly), less modern grains, less seed oils. Instead, having a well balanced diet which imho should include at least eggs, butter and fish is a great starting point.
You'd make much stronger points if you included citations. If your points are in fact correct, they would be highly useful.
It also takes a lot of effort to dispel bullshit, much more effort than spreading it. Engaging with flat earthers is exhausting, most people don't do it due to insufficient knowledge and actual scientists don't engage b/c they've got better things to do.
My language is emotionally charged because I've been in the keto community for a long time and I've witnessed a lot of quackery, which I believe can do harm to those in need, just like the anti-vaxers are doing.
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There are very few studies showing the effects of a ketogenic diet on cognition, in healthy subjects.
Here's a study showing that a low-fat diet can have better psychological improvement, versus a low carb diet, even with similar weight loss: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/articl...
Here's a study that finds similar effects in mood between a low carb and a high carb diet, although the reaction time was improved in the low-fat group: https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/86/3/580/4649430
Here's a study comparing cognitive performance between a high carb versus a log carb diet, showing similar results: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3789132/
Here's one study which merely says that people feel awful for the first two weeks and then start to feel less awful after reintroducing carbs — it's unfortunately not randomized: https://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/23706/PDF
Here's a study that shows weight loss itself (the biggest confounder of every claim made by keto proponents) is known to affect mood and cognition and to improve quality of life: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4905696/
Here's one paper arguing that most effects of drugs are attributable to placebo or nocebo: https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev-psych-...
People on a diet also tend to do some exercise, here's one arguing about the positive effects of resistance training, which many in the keto community are engaging in: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/article-abst...
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Weight loss, exercise and placebo are actually the best explanations for most of the seemingly miraculous effects of the keto diet.
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Anyway, here's one for the depletion of glycogen: https://science.sciencemag.org/content/254/5031/573.long
Here's a graph showing roughly the evolution of glycogen and ketones during fasting, from "Harper's Biochemistry": https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D-Q0MSPXUAEK_-r?format=jpg&name=...
I do understand your goal post comment. It's super-frustrating that virtually all diet information out there has some tangential agenda (Eg. animal welfare, keto/paleo cultism, etc)
I myself did the keto diet and found success with it, but then I transitioned to just more of a selective generalized diet and experienced identical effects. Keto was just the first time I'd ever had a set of rules to apply to the food I ate, which was ultimately the actual training I needed.
However, I did change my diet to be very selective, and felt great. But changing to keto had some additional benefits, the most prominent being a noticeable change in how hungry I felt during the day. It's much easier to go long periods of time without eating when in ketosis.
And as someone who participates in activities that require large amounts of endurance, I know on keto my ability to perform for extended periods of time is higher. These aren't "I think" numbers, they are "polar heart rate monitor strapped to my chest" numbers.
The very nature of keto leads to improved endurance, fat is a much more plentiful energy source than glucose, it may be less efficient (lifting heavy on keto is a well known problem), but it /never/ runs out. If someone is doing an activity that doesn't cause excessive lactic acid build up or complete muscle fatigue, then a keto will give an endurance advantage.
Not really.
Yes, athletes do suffer an adaptation, but it's basically about returning to near baseline levels (i.e. from sucking badly to sucking less). And as a matter of fact, the peak performance never recovers to full capacity ;-)
Here's a list of studies on this subject — all of them showing a dicrease in performance:
- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2279002/
- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14967870
- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4113752/
There's also this one that shows no difference in endurance performance at low/moderate intensity, a far cry from your claim:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6865776
And endurance exercise could see a benefit in some circumstances, although this is highly debatable, however also in athletes a keto diet can lead to lean mass being lost:
You admit and acknowledge an "adaptation" in this comment, but in another reply to me where I talk out the keto adaptation, you replied:
>everything you're saying is a complete myth. Define what it means for the cells to adapt for "running on ketones". There's no such thing.
As previously provided:
A ketogenic diet (KD) involves using fat, a high-density substrate, as the main source in daily calorie intake while restricting carbohydrate intake [21,22]. In this way, the liver is forced to produce and release ketone bodies into the circulation [23,24,25,26]. This phenomenon is called nutritional ketosis [27,28,29]. Over time, the body will acclimate to using ketone bodies as a primary fuel, which is called keto-adaptation, an element of fat-adaptation [30,31,32]. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6410243/
>Several days of dietary carbohydrate restriction to levels < 40–50 g/day, with moderate protein, results in increased circulating beta-hydroxybutyrate (BOHB) by an order of magnitude. When maintained for several consecutive weeks, the metabolic state of ‘nutritional ketosis’ awakens a dormant set of genes and metabolic programs that counteract insulin resistance and manifest in several positive health outcomes. This process, referred to as ‘keto-adaptation’, is characterized by accelerated rates of whole body fatty acid oxidation, while glycolysis, insulin concentrations, insulin receptor activation and signaling, constitutive inflammation and oxidative stress are all decreased. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S24682....
>Here's a list of studies on this subject — all of them showing a dicrease in performance:
I think most agree for high level athletes in anaerobic sports ketosis isn't going to be the best diet for athletic performance, but these studies don't really support what you claim
- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2279002/
>In conclusion, in this study we have demonstrated that VLDL-TG made a significant contribution to fuel utilization during exercise after adaptation to a fat-rich diet. The increased total fat oxidation observed after fat diet adaptation originated from both a higher plasma FA oxidation and utilization of VLDL-TG, and thus circulating VLDL-TG should be included among the lipid fuels that may be utilized during exercise.
- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14967870
>Adaptation to a 6-week HFMP diet in non-highly trained men resulted in increased fat oxidation during exercise and small decrements in peak power output and endurance performance.
- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4113752/
This is the most supportive of your position, but it still acknowledges the benefits of ketosis
>It can be concluded that long-term, high fat diets may be favorable for aerobic endurance athletes, during the preparatory season, when a high volume and low to moderate intensity of training loads predominate in the training process. High volume training on a ketogenic diet increases fat metabolism during exercise, reduces body mass and fat content and decreases post exercise muscle damage.
Read "The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance" and can absolutely say that after an initial horrible period that lasted for months, I was eventually able to run further and just as fast as I used to when I was carbo-loading. I can honestly say that running is more difficult now - my legs are generally sore and I don't feel like I'm 'flying along', but I've always tracked my times with Garmin, then Apple, and the stats belie how I feel.
From the book: "[Keto-adaptation] allows even a very lean (10% body fat) athlete access to more than 40,000 kcal from body fat, rather than starting a prolonged event depending primarily on ~2000 kcal of glycogen."
I think the studies you quoted would back-up the authors, but I also wanted to lend my long-term personal experience. I can't recall where I read it, but thought adaption also occurred in leg muscles where they found a massive increase in the number of mitochondria for athletes on keto.
I tested myself daily for years until I found a combination of diet and exercise that worked. My body definitely adapted and became much more efficient at burning fat - there's no performance 'wall' anymore, but I think the experience is different for everyone.
You're literally retraining your body to efficiently burn stored body fat when it never had to much before. This takes time. The idea that it happens in days is laughable, as is the idea that your microbiome adjusts that quickly.
Please don't spread blatant misinformation.
A total guess of what happened to you, but what's not a guess is about the adaptation taking months and being about anything more than dehydration or nutrient deficiency being total bullshit.
As for adaptation taking merely days, what's your source for that? The common wisdom and community consensus that you'll read anywhere is that it takes roughly 2 weeks to 2 months to adjust. You're the one claiming this is wrong. So what exactly is your proof here?
Look, I'm glad it wasn't a problem for you. But claiming that therefore it isn't for others, just doesn't hold water.
And that entire time I did not lose weight, I actually gained a pound or two.
If you're interested in losing weight, find a strategy for eating less (by playing with what you eat or with meal timing). The only reason keto works for some people is because it leads to a spontaneous drop in appetite, due to cutting entire food groups from the diet, thus making the food you eat less palatable. And the extra protein sure helps. But it only works short term, after which you start enjoying bacon and butter, so the inevitable plateau happens and then you get the line about your metabolism needing to "heal" before losing weight, which is bullshit, as the causality is reversed (i.e. your metabolism is broken because you ate too much and exposed adipocytes tissue to an energy excess, aka energy poisoning, so the solution is to eat less and to lose weight).
I've lost 55 pounds and kept it off, being almost at my ideal weight. Not with keto.
I'd just like to chime in and echo this sentiment. I myself have lost and kept off between 2 and 3 times what parent has and it was also no thanks to keto, or any fad-diet bullshit.
There's no magic to losing weight. Consume less, expend more, weight loss ensues. Yes, it is that simple. No, that doesn't mean it is easy. There are many different paths but they all lead to the same place.
Keto truly is much, much easier for many people. If you explore the keto community a bit, you will notice that it often naturally leads to intermittent fasting - simply because people don't feel like eating all that often.
Of course, it comes with its own difficulties with regards to food selection and social eating. However, in terms of willpower, my experience has been it's zero-effort compared to previous caloric restriction diets I've done.
This is not to say that caloric restriction takes a huge amount of effort and will-power for everyone. But if it does for you, it's worth checking keto out - and it's definitely not just a fad.
I've found that a fairly good selection criterion is people that suffer from post-meal slumps (sleepiness). If you are one of them, its likely that ketogenic diets will be helpful.
This is true...but it gets to my point, just because your body begins breaking down fat and producing ketones (as shown in your tests) does not mean your cells have adapted to using ketones as fuel, that requires the body to adapt.
Based on your numbers you were clearly breaking down fat and making ketones, but based on your not feeling any different I'd say your cells never adapted to ketones as the primary fuel source. This is the same for people depleting their glucose stores over night, yes they are in "ketosis", meaning they are breaking down fat and producing ketones, but that does not mean their cells are efficiently running on ketones.
My guess with you, not knowing more, is you are pretty inactive. At least I would be surprised to learn you engage in lets say an hour of cardio 4-5 times a week. I am not saying keto is the end all be all, or that everyone prefers it, but I have not met anyone who does aerobic cardio and experimented with Ketosis and not experienced a different (again good or bad). On the other hand I have met many people who tried Keto and never noticed any difference, like you describe, and the commonality seems to be they were inactive.
There's no such thing.
> "I would be surprised to learn you engage in lets say an hour of cardio 4-5 times a week"
I ride my bike or walk to/from work about 10 Km every day and I do weight training 3 times per week, which puts me in the moderately active category.
>A ketogenic diet (KD) involves using fat, a high-density substrate, as the main source in daily calorie intake while restricting carbohydrate intake [21,22]. In this way, the liver is forced to produce and release ketone bodies into the circulation [23,24,25,26]. This phenomenon is called nutritional ketosis [27,28,29]. Over time, the body will acclimate to using ketone bodies as a primary fuel, which is called keto-adaptation, an element of fat-adaptation [30,31,32]. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6410243/
emphasis added citing the following study:
>Several days of dietary carbohydrate restriction to levels < 40–50 g/day, with moderate protein, results in increased circulating beta-hydroxybutyrate (BOHB) by an order of magnitude. When maintained for several consecutive weeks, the metabolic state of ‘nutritional ketosis’ awakens a dormant set of genes and metabolic programs that counteract insulin resistance and manifest in several positive health outcomes. This process, referred to as ‘keto-adaptation’, is characterized by accelerated rates of whole body fatty acid oxidation, while glycolysis, insulin concentrations, insulin receptor activation and signaling, constitutive inflammation and oxidative stress are all decreased. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S24682...
GNG is an on-demand production of glucose, and absolutely does NOT kick the body out of ketosis, or cause the brain to run on glucose. GNG provides enough glucose for the tissues that cannot run on ketones (such as the kidneys). Without GNG, ketosis would not be possible. In fact, ketones regulate GNG, and prevent it from exceeding the needed maintenance levels.
Furthermore, GNG runs at mostly a constant level, does not increase with protein intake, and is at that constant level even when the body is not in ketosis.
What prevent ketosis in stubborn cases? Insulin resistance. To overcome insulin resistance it takes a strict low-carb regime paired with moderate fat intake, and lowering of stress. The process can be dramatically sped up with intermittent fasting.
I never said GNG kicks people out of ketosis, I said protein to fat ratios will prohibit ketosis. Yes, in ketosis your body continues to produce minimal amounts of glucose, I never said anything to the contrary.
However, GNG has a lot to do with ketosis vis-a-vis protein to fat ratios, protein to fat intake can not be to high or it will kick you out of ketosis because of GNG
>Furthermore, GNG runs at mostly a constant level, does not increase with protein intake, and is at that constant level even when the body is not in ketosis.
If you over consume fat or carbs, they get stored as fat in fat cells. What happens when you over consume protein? Protein can not be stored as fat, it must first be converted to glucose, which the body will try to burn before it is stored in fat cells. This is why a high protein to fat ratio carnivore diet will prohibit ketosis or kick one out of ketosis, unlike a high fat to protein carnivore diet (again I never said the body stops producing glucose from protein in that situation, but the glucose production is minimal in ketosis because of the ratios and ketones remain the primary fuel source).
>To overcome insulin resistance it takes a strict low-carb regime paired with moderate fat intake, and lowering of stress.
While generally true and correct, I can even come up with examples where this breaks down...whey oxalate being a perfect example. Whey oxalate will typically have 25g of protein and may have as low as 1 gram of carbs, but Whey oxalate will spike insulin in most people and throw most people out of ketosis.
No, this is wrong. GNG is capped in the body, i.e., strictly regulated. It does not increase based upon protein intake beyond that cap. Excess protein is neither converted to glucose, nor excreted. It is utilized in protein synthesis and increases lean body mass.
This has been demonstrated in a number of studies. For example, in Bray GA, JAMA 2012, subjects were fed an excess of 1000kcal over their their maintenance calorie needs for 8 weeks. There were three groups: low, moderate, and high protein. Carbs were constant. Fat made up the difference in caloric content, such that the high-protein group (230g a day) received the lowest fat intake. All three groups gained similar amounts of fat over those 8 weeks, with the high protein group gaining slightly less fat. But the medium and high-protein groups gained lean body mass to make up the difference.
So in short, excess protein is not converted to fat via GNG, but is used for protein synthesis, and increases lean body mass.
> This is why a high protein to fat ratio carnivore diet will prohibit ketosis or kick one out of ketosis, unlike a high fat to protein carnivore diet.
This absolutely does not happen, and I have the blood tests to prove it.
>In conclusion, after a high-protein diet, GNG was increased... https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/british-journal-of-n...
> "A total of twenty-two healthy subjects (ten men and twelve women: age 23 (sem 1) years, BMI 22·1 (sem 0·5) kg/m2) received an isoenergetic high-protein (30/0/70 % of energy from protein/carbohydrate/fat) or normal-protein diet (12/55/33 % of energy from protein/carbohydrate/fat) for 1·5 d in a randomised cross-over design"
It wasn't the increase in protein that stimulated GNG. It was the reduction of carbs. Without sufficient dietary carbohydrate, the body must maintain minimum glucose levels via GNG.
"Glucose concentration was lower (4·09 (sem 0·10) v. 4·89 (sem 0·06) mmol/l, P < 0·001) and β-hydroxybutyrate concentration was higher (1349 (sem 139) v. 234 (sem 25) μmol/l, P < 0·001) after the high-protein compared with the normal-protein diet."
β-hydroxybutyrate is a ketone body.
Note that this contradicts your statements that GNG will kick you out of ketosis. It absolutely will not.
To repeat: GNG is constant, regulated by ketones, and its relative level is not driven by protein demand, but by glucose depletion.
Its really simple, eat nothing but chicken and/or turkey (high protein, low fat, no carb). You will not become keto adapted or fat adapted.
Alternatively enter into nutritional (dietary) ketosis with a high fat diet, then switch to chicken and/or turkey only (high protein, low fat, no carb) you will not remain in ketosis.
Do you disagree with that? Have you seen any study that shows fat/protein ratios are immaterial to nutritional ketosis?
In fact, the biggest mistake keto dieters make is to assume that "fat doesn't make you fat". That's just wrong. On any high-fat keto diet you will burn dietary fat before burning your own fat. If weight lost is one's goal, it is essential to limit fat intake to moderate levels, just enough to keep you sated, so that the body is using its own fat reserves.
A low carb and low fat diet is unhealthy for lean people because fat/fatty acids/etc is required for a whole lot of synthesis.
This is completely incorrect. Gluconeogenesis is stimulated by the pancreas releasing glucagon in response to low blood sugar. GNG happens in everyone regardless of diet when blood sugar is too low. It has nothing at all to do with the amount of dietary protein you consume.
GNG happens in people in ketosis pretty constantly without stopping ketosis.
Thoughts?
For lifting/HIIT training ketosis may not be ideal. I have done it and its fine, basically I swap whey for hemp protein powder and continue using creatine post workout.
I think for most people unless they are competing or trying to gain mass they would really like the results of ketosis and lifting. You will lean out (both fat loss and less water retention) and maintain muscle mass, don't be afraid of losing your gains. On the down side the adjustment period will probably be a little longer/harder than a relatively inactive person and initially you will likely notice a decline in energy in the gym, but it will be temporary (again your body is learning to use ketones as primary fuel source and that takes time). That said once you adjust you won't find any trouble lifting heavy or running sprints, in fact you will probably be able to go longer. One benefit you really notice is lack of inflammation and soreness following workouts, in my experience the body recovers faster, though this is still about the actual food you consume (healthy omega 3s and green leafy vegetables) and not some automatic benefit of ketosis.
The current state of affairs is: If you are insulin resistant (either because of genetics, obesity, whatever) then having a low-carb high fat diet is better for you. If your insulin resistance is high, then your pancreas produces much more insulin, meaning your cells will start storing energy instead of using it up. If this keeps up for a long period, your fat tissues, which are supposed to be your fat/energy storage, will fill up and your body (or rather the particles transporting the transformed sugar from the liver) will start sticking to your organs. This starts inflammations and makes your organs weaker, and in turn also raising your insulin resistance. And these malfunctions also spread to the brain and can cause alzheimer and the like. The exact chain of effects is not yet confirmed, so from here on it's a lot of speculation. But if you now are trying to lose weight, and you just reduce calories, but keeping a "high-carb/low-fat" diet, then you will be hungry. Because either you have too little protein to feed yourself, or you eat enough protein and you automatically eat too many carbs again, producing more and more insulin. This is how high-fat diets come in handy, as they don't spur liver activity and don't impact insulin as much. This in turn means you can reach ketosis, starting to work the fat on your organs (which is a lot more dangerous then some fat in fat tissues like your belly). Your body will recover, inflammation will go away and your insulin sensitivity goes up again (unless you are genetically diabetic). And with a healthy body your brain can also recover.
The studies for this are still coming in, but I find this explanation very logic and even this study, although the article is weirdly phrased, plays into it.
Some remarks at the end: - If you do a lot of sports, your muscles use energy even without insulin - Glucose is spread through the body, while fructose is directly converted to fat (tissue) - Sport also increases insulin sensitivity - Diets are very personal, try out things for yourself and see how it works! - Protein is also increasing insulin (since protein intake signals the body to start storing energy, i. e. protein into muscle cells)
Cipryan, Lukas, Daniel J. Plews, Alessandro Ferretti, Phil B. Maffetone, and Paul B. Laursen. “Effects of a 4-Week Very Low-Carbohydrate Diet on High-Intensity Interval Training Responses.” Journal of Sports Science & Medicine 17, no. 2 (May 14, 2018): 259–68.
Greene, David A., Benjamin J. Varley, Timothy B. Hartwig, Phillip Chapman, and Michael Rigney. “A Low-Carbohydrate Ketogenic Diet Reduces Body Weight Without Compromising Performance in Powerlifting and Olympic Weightlifting Athletes.” The Journal of Strength & Conditioning Research Publish Ahead of Print (October 17, 2018). https://doi.org/10.1519/JSC.0000000000002904.
Paoli, Antonio, Keith Grimaldi, Dominic D’Agostino, Lorenzo Cenci, Tatiana Moro, Antonino Bianco, and Antonio Palma. “Ketogenic Diet Does Not Affect Strength Performance in Elite Artistic Gymnasts.” Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition 9 (July 26, 2012): 34. https://doi.org/10.1186/1550-2783-9-34.
Kephart, Wesley C., Coree D. Pledge, Paul A. Roberson, Petey W. Mumford, Matthew A. Romero, Christopher B. Mobley, Jeffrey S. Martin, et al. “The Three-Month Effects of a Ketogenic Diet on Body Composition, Blood Parameters, and Performance Metrics in CrossFit Trainees: A Pilot Study.” Sports 6, no. 1 (January 9, 2018). https://doi.org/10.3390/sports6010001.
If you're interested in the topic of human performance and ketosis, I enjoy Volek's talks - here's one from a relatively recent Jumpstart event: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeS_dhM8dsY
Anecdotally, I find my workout recovery to be much better on keto/fasting diet, but all my markers (and overall inflammation) has improved so much and I'm being mindful of other aspects like stress, sleep, etc that it's hard to necessarily pin down to one cause.
I was eating a higher protein diet than usually considered keto, but urinalysis confirmed ketosis.
I've done this. You get tired much faster, you will not be able to sprint for nearly as long, your maximum lift significantly decreases, you hit the muscle fatigue point (can't lift again unless you lower the weight) very quickly.
The usual solution among keto lifters is to have a carbload cheat day once per week _or_ to carb spike with I think (it's been a while) pure glucose syrup a measured amount just before your workout according to how much you think you'll actually use during the workout. The cheat day in practice works pretty well, because if you're slamming your body at the gym every day you can get back into ketosis very quickly after the initial induction phase is done, so you end up with a couple of days of keto per week but not the full week.
After years of doing keto I can get that keto feeling/energy/effect by doing one day of super low carbs and super low calories, I’ll wake up the next day wanting to spring out of bed like you wouldn’t believe.
Keto is shit for working out, in my personal opinion. Some people claim they can have effective workouts on keto, but I hate it, and a lot of others have a hard time having energy when training on keto. Keto is good for weight loss, and I lost 60 lbs in 5 months doing keto, but it's total crap for building muscle, in my experience.
The best compromise, in my experience, is fasting. I'm talking ideally 48 hours between meals. I'll keep it short because I've been spamming threads about this topic recently; because fasting forces the body to solely burn through its glycogen stores, and then body fat once that runs out, ketosis becomes easier to achieve even if there are some carbs in meals, and the presence of carbs in meals provides glycogen for when you workout and train your muscles. I believe this is needed, especially for HIIT. In my experience, you can eat a modest amount of carbs when breaking a fast and still manage to get back into ketosis(fat burning mode!) within a few days. It totally outperforms keto in that it often takes people several days, possibly weeks, to get into deep ketosis.
That said, a low carb, but not necessarily keto, diet can work for someone doing HIIT. Everyone's body is different. A person may find that they want more carbs in order to be effective in the gym, but if they're trying to get lean, then that can compromise their goal, in which case they should reduce their eating frequency a la fasting. A person who is either building muscle or maintaining body composition may not need to do a low carb diet at all.
(Keto vs non-keto is night and day for me, brain fog vs no brain fog, energy for life vs not being able to get off the couch)
I do a similar set of exercises on the same day/time every week and it ends with 30 seconds of burpees.
Prior to going on keto I was doing 16 burpees in that 30 seconds. After the first week I was down to twelve. After a couple more weeks I was back to 16 - and two weeks after that I was on 17. I’m now on 18.
I’ve gone from 103kg to 88kg in that time, so it seems likely the weight loss has been a (or the) factor in the improved performance.
At first you will absolutely have less energy, but it seems like the more fat-adapted you are, the more energy you'll have. At some point it seems like you actually have more energy to work out.
It does not mean that carbs in general are toxic, nor that this diet is recommended for everybody! Diets are very personal, it just becomes more and more common because sugar is added everywhere, people are getting older and older and obesity is a global problem. As such, most people are very insulin resistant and work better with low-carb/high-fat diets.
This headline is one of the reasons there is so much misinformation in food and diets
In fact, since going low carb I have a new mental awareness when I’ve eaten enough: I eat until a switch flicks in my head mid chew and says “that is enough”. It’s mental, not that physical feeling of the stomach being full.
This is completely new to me.
Typical foods you could eat 4000 calories of combine fat and carbs into a delicious combination: french fries, pizza, cookies, milkshakes. I don't look at those foods and think individually carbs or fat is at fault. But on the other hand, carbs are what the body uses for energy, so to avoid them doesn't make sense to me. I'd rather skip out on fat.
The rule of thumb is proteins and fats are essential, carbs are not. How much of each is still up for debate.
Then why go around saying things like:
> Yes you will feel like you have no energy during workouts. The primary fuel for muscles is glycogen. Cells use glucose by default. And fats are 9 cal/g, so they’re so easy to overeat.
Having been on keto for a few months now, I disagree. I feel way better than when I'm eating carbs, and have so much more energy.
But for people who feel vaguely but persistently like things aren't working anymore, I really recommend experimenting with diet. I've tried a variety of things over the years, and have ended up with a combination that has made my life hugely better: better mood, more even-tempered, much more energetic, and physical exercise has gotten a lot more fun. I recently went back to my old diet for a week and felt like warmed-over garbage.
But yes, expect it will take 1-3 months for your body and habits to really adapt. E.g., when I quit refined carbs, I experience 1-3 weeks of withdrawal symptoms. Headaches, low energy, enormously cranky. And it's even longer for the habits to really get established, so I stop feeling like I'm missing out on the old things.
(When I look, I don't see negative effects associated with IF, and I do with keto diets. The research changes a lot and the conclusions don't seem definitive, but I thought someone on here might have an educated opinion on the matter).
Intermittent fasting is key to enabling me to lower my caloric input because of the momentum of the fasting phase carried over into the eating phase, e.g. smaller stomach and more effective metabolism. I currently fast about 12 hours per day (including the sleep phase), which doesn't sound like much but with the lowered caloric input it's actually pretty good. I can go longer easily when the circumstances demand it, and after crossing 16 hours I actually stop experiencing hunger completely. I plan to extend the fasting periods in the future, if easy and convenient.
As for whether ketosis is necessary - I believe I would not be able to fast intermittently without it, or at least not comfortably, which is necessary for any lifestyle change to be sustainable.
I'm not aware of any negative effects of being in ketosis for prolonged periods of time, and quite the opposite. I don't crave sugary foods anymore, and I dislike anything with even a trace of sweetness. I was surprised to discover how good the body really is at detecting what food is good for it, once in ketosis.
My main food sources currently are avocado, egg, tahini and drinks based on almond or walnut milk. I'm also using vitamin and mineral supplements, mostly in fluid forms. I'm 42 and I wish I had known about keto as early in my life as possible, not when I was forced to explore it due to declining health. Ketosis gives you a stable level of energy through the day and allows you to fully focus on life and the tasks at hand.
Since mid-January this year I have been fasting intemittently. I have zero calories before 5PM, and I am usually in bed by 10. I exercise most weeks between 4 and six days, but only two or so are "vigorous" for me. My workouts are mid-day.
When I eat, I eat normally for me, which is lower carb and higher protein, but not (knowingly) keto or anything.
I have lost about 10 pounds.
I just got my blood lab results, and they are the worst numbers I have ever seen. Highest fasting glucose (borderline diabetic, a rise of 14 points or so from memory), highest cholesterol (doc's gonna make me take meds if it doesn't come down).
I've done this before, but wouldn't I would "only" wait until 2, and I got bad (but not this bad) results as well. I decided to try again, making my eating window truly shorter, but alas...
I was devastated by the results. Total bummer.
I do drink, however, straight liquor. Rarely to excess, but also rarely fewer than 2 drinks (almost always 2-3 drinks an evening).
That's a sample too short, a lot of that can be the momentum carried over from whatever you have been doing previously. You have to understand that as a carb/sugar eater, you may have effectively destroyed your body to the point when it's much harder for it to digest nutrients from food (e.g. fatty liver). And/or you may have a starting diabetes.
Before jumping into the meds death spiral, check Dr. Berg's videos on YouTube, and I'm sure you'll find a way forward. When your body is broken, nutrition isn't a simple thing, trust me, I know.
Did you mean after 5PM?
Other than weight loss, do you feel any differently (body, mind)? I have started IF last fall. Similar diet - low carb, higher protein. I also had considerable weight loss, but no impact on blood quality.
Don't confuse Keto, etc. as "high protein", its primarily a very low carb diet, "moderate protein" and "high fat". Too much protein also isn't ideal for Type 2 diabetes or the various stages that lead up to it. One thing that surprised me was for example, how Whey protein can also spike up blood sugar (so much for post-workout whey drinks, etc.)
I recommend the books and videos of Dr. Jason Fung on fasting, as I think he makes a compelling case for the layman how fasting varieties can be beneficial. He is a nephrologist, and since kidney issues are common with diabetes patients, he had many diabetes patients in his office and had good succes with them bettering their condition using fasting methods.
Obligatory: I am not a doctor and you should not swap out medical supervision for random internet advice, but Dr. Jason Fung is definitely worth checking out.
Ok, I hope that wasn't too much of unsolicited advice for you. I wish you all the best and hope that you can get on top of things which whatever method works for you.
How do you know if you've entered ketosis or what the levels are?
I am not quite sure about the "health" class. So roughly speaking I am obese and I do think with every 3 kilograms I loose per month, I am healthier. So keto as a tool for loosing weight is really without a doubt healthy. The correlations between being overweight and associated risks are MUCH stronger than the correlations between food and associated risks.
Now, if you dig deeper into books on keto and fasting by doctors, you see how fragile certain conclusions are that are now the consensus opinion in nutritional science. I am a data-scientist, trained biophysicist and I know I am not an epidemiologist and not a biologist, but I can tell "creative statistics" apart from not-suspicious ones, and a lot of central nutritional science studies that triggered the fat-fear seem to be highly deficient from a statistical perspective, hardly proving any causality.
So I tend to be rather sceptical about dietary advice after 1950 unless it has been (a) shown in humans and not just in experiments with animals (b) based on studies that do interventions, i.e. change the behavior of humans rather than just surveying or asking what people do.
What I also find fascinating is, how the fasting community and the keto community often reach similar conclusion while actually being kind of different communities advocating for different "resolutions".
Anyway, what I was trying to say: If keto and fasting helps the normal weight range at steady 3kg/month, I do think it is healthy for me, when I am in a normal weight range, the priorities may change from "weight loss is really important" to other aspects.
IF can be a part of that, in terms of helping you to control your eating and making the time-period at the end of those 2 - 3 days happen maybe a half-day sooner, but fundamentally it doesn't change carbs are carbs.
Also you might find the relationship almost works the other way. Ketosis makes IF much easier. I haven't eaten breakfast in years. I don't even really consider that an IF regimen as much as like... once you get rid of the habit for a month or two you completely don't miss it and forget why you bothered.
https://www.businessinsider.com/fasting-diet-ketosis-brain-b...
That said I have also done carnivore and also not been in ketosis, which I think is probably the norm for most people on carnivore because the protein/fat ratios aren't right.
The commonality in ketosis carnivore and non-ketosis carnivore is removal of refined sugar/carbs which means no insulin spikes, which means steady levels of energy without crashing.
The keto diet with ratios has been designed as a diet for epileptics, so in a ratio that maintains both body weight in a healthy range and induces ketosis and avoids ceizures (note: 1920s medicine or something). So the high fat content kind of is there to actually give you the energy so that you don't loose weight.
One aspect of the "carnivore" diet that is often overlooked, a "human carnivore in the stone age" will not have lived off of chicken breast and lean beef cuts, but easten the entire animal, i.e. the fat cuts as well that are surprisingly hard to get in a western country.
"White pasta" 40 ±5 vs. "Beef" 51 ±16
I think that the real question is "What will happen to my insulin if I eat a meal of pasta vs, a meal of steak?". To that, I think that the steak will in fact spike your insulin much higher than the pasta.
That said the beef has a higher satiety score (by almost exactly the same ratio as the high end insulin ratio).
Again, sauces, what your body needs right now, what you'll eat for your next meal,... lots of things can alter the overall health perspective.
As much as I think keto and carnivore are lightyears past the average American's diet, I've found them difficult to maintain because they're very restrictive and I lack the energy to be effective when working out, which is common. Fasting in combination with a low carb diet, even one that incorporates things like berries, has been much more effective and easy to maintain in my experience. Combining macronutrition with eating frequency reduces the penalty of eating carbs or lots of protein by making it much easier to get back into ketosis. When you force your body to burn through its glycogen stores, and you give it no choice but to use your fat store, ketosis will come back in no time.
So you are definitely correct that fatty cuts are better, most of the time, but with fasting the protein to fat ratio almost becomes a non-issue.
I found that I cramped, also. Eating 1/2 apple immediately before working out seemed to do the trick.
Ketosis is fundamentally different, your bodies mode of metabolizing (body) fat in the state of fasting, which can also be provoked when eating a high-fat moderate protein and <20-30g carbohydrates diet.
And yes, asking a physician may be a good idea if you suffer under certain conditions. Sometimes it may be valuable to find a physician that has knowledge on keto-diets, because that's not really something every physician learns about as a dietary choice.
How do you do that? If the low-carb diet isn't enough, what is?
Could you elaborate on that logic?
While most catabolic products are categorically and chemically ketones, the list of ketone bodies mostly falls within the list of Keto-Acids. All of which can get passed to TCA at some point, which in turn can feed into gluconeogenesis if the reaction pathway energy is favorable.
Also check out diet doctors take on it which refers to actual studies. "Does protein adversely affect blood sugar?" https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/protein
However, There's no evidence I've see that gluconeogenesis can kick you out of ketosis. As far as I know, gluconeogensis is demand-driven, not supply-driven, so there won't be any extra glucose running around for your ketone-consuming cells to use, regardless of your protein intake.
Disclaimer: I'm not a nutritionist or biologist.
My understanding is the body would much rather run on ketones than go down that path.
Orthodox nutritionists would definitely advice against ketosis, potentially they may be fine with fasting-induced ketosis every once in a while (depends a bit on how they were trained).
People who embrace a low-carb ketosis-inducing diet (aka "Keto diet") or embrace multi-day fasting don't consider it harmful really. For fasting there are of course certain limits but not due to ketosis but for other effects of not eating (refeed effect, general weight-considerations, etc. but there have been overweight people successfully fasting for months under supervision).
if she just slipped it sucks (let's say doctors have a lot to worry so this is not bad)
if she did truly misunderstand, it's tough to tell
You're right, there are different views on this topic, in particular in the types of cholesterol elevated and decreased.
Anecdotally, my father and I discovered separately, in bloodwork unrelated to our individual diets, that a HFLC diet significantly decreased LDL and increased HDL.
Dr. Jason Fung has a few interesting figures in his book, citing studies where the consumption of eggs for example decreases risks, kind of fascinating.
Be careful what evidence you accept on this question. There are billion dollar industries doing their best to confuse the issue.
also try to search "ldl blood test" on r/keto, there are tons of people report much higher ldl after switching to keto.
n=17, so who knows.
this could be pubmed <title>
the more you dig the less certain
Keto is the "burn your body fat" mode. Staying in keto by eating high fat low carb is a trick. Humans never had such easy access to fats as today. Before we made settlements we got a large part of our calories from fruits (which contain short carbs), not unlike the other primates.
This can't possibly be true. Agriculture is only 12,000 years old or so, but people have been living in Europe for much longer than that. I'm in North America, and there are no fruits available locally for six months out of the year. Before agriculture people must have been living mostly from hunting.
Athletes in sports favoring fast-twitch muscle presumably wouldn't do keto, but endurance athletes, sure.
The SF Giants' Hunter Pence is a vocal keto practitioner.
"Low carb" as the title currently reads does not necessarily result in ketosis and your body/brain running on ketones, which appears to be the scope of this study. There is more to dietary ketosis than low carb, just as an example carnivore or paleo diets are low carb, but those will generally not result in ketosis, in protein rich diets your body will convert the protein to glucose which will continue to be the primary fuel for the cells in the brain/body.
If you have never entered ketosis and experienced your brain running on ketones, I would suggest you experiment for yourself. I would say a minimum 2-3 months which should be enough time for your microbiome to change and your body/brain to adapt primarily running on ketones.