https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&e...

Meanwhile unemployment in the UK is 6.2% right now.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&e...

I suggest looking for a job in London. A lot of tech companies are hiring there.

Even people that got laid off were able to secure a new position in a relatively short time.

My guess that the problem is more related to prejudices about his age, as the op says.

I have a co-worker that is 50+ years old and entered the company a couple of years ago. He is a brilliant engineer and an incredibly nice guy.

Still, my boss had to fight with HR in order for them to hire him, since they considered him "too old" to still be a developer.

It is illegal under EU law to discriminate against age in an employment context. And well played for the EU for taking this stand.

http://ec.europa.eu/justice/discrimination/files/age_and_emp...

Yes they do.

There is a lot of legislation about employment and documentation of the processes. Lots of smaller companies don't bother but larger companies are obsessive about it because they wouldn't risk exposing themselves.

It´s not really age discrimination as much as a particular (stupid) view of what carrer development should be for a technical guy, in some places.

That is to say, it is expected that in your late carrer you moved into a management position of some sort, and not stayed "simply" a developer.

Again, stupid and counterproductive.

BTW by "fight" I mean metaphorically, of course.

I have at least three ex coworkers that moved to UK for these reasons, even if at the time they were (more or less) happily employed in Spain.

Yes, but AFAIK developers are exceptions - at least in Catalonia. Especially experienced ones. Depends on how much salary is acceptable. As I researched, for senior devs, it is 35-45K EUR/annual, which is rather low... He may as well consider consulting.

There are a lot of consulting jobs, but they are usually the domain of consulting companies (known as "cárnicas", meat factories, among developers), that do little more than acting as a middlemen between the hire and the actual company, pocketing the substantial difference between the consulting fees and paid salary.

But I work in a more traditional environment and possibly this is different in the case of web development.

This also describes the situation in Portugal almost perfectly with the difference that we call those companies "negreiros" (slave traders).

When I was young(er), a lot of dev work in Spain looked like just building business database interfaces. My hunch (based in practically zero facts), is that many devs have been stuck there until those jobs ran out, and their skills may not fully align with more generic app problem solving.

It is in Spanish, but this [2] is a good documentary about it.

[1] http://www.antena3.com/noticias/economia/economia-sumergida-...

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5FRGu_W_6g

So while it is true that the informal sector is somewhat larger in Spain than in other countries, the difference does not seem to be enough to explain such high unemployment rates.

[1] http://www-wds.worldbank.org/servlet/WDSContentServer/WDSP/I...

No more than a 30 year-old or 26 year-old with a family. It might even be the case that he's in a better position becasue his kids are grown up now. We don't know - so we should take the OP at their word that they're willing to move.

Same advice for everyone. Almost no one does this stuff and those that do greatly increase their chance of getting work.

People sit around hoping not to have to do the hard yards, hoping they'll somehow be given a job. In 2014 you have to make it happen through active, public work.

If you build enough of an online reputation then you'll get work without even meeting people and they wouldn't know if you were an 80 year old giraffe.

And... your parent commenter is right: "When it comes to hiring, I'll take a Github commit log over a resume any day.", jeresig [2]

[1] The development abstraction layer (http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/DevelopmentAbstractio...)

[2] John Resig on Twitter (https://twitter.com/jeresig/status/33968704983138304)

As for "github is your CV" hype:

http://www.ashedryden.com/blog/the-ethics-of-unpaid-labor-an...

https://blog.jcoglan.com/2013/11/15/why-github-is-not-your-c...

> "So that we're all on the same page, let's take a look at what the landscape of open source contribution looks like. Someone's made a handy gist of the most active GitHub users (from Nov 10, 2012 through Nov 10, 2013) (thanks to @jclermont for the link). A quick glance through the list shows that the overwhelming majority of these users are white men."

Just to clarify, these are pictures of users she's looking at.

meanwhile at the bottom of the page..

> "I hesitate to break down actual percentages because attempting to discern someone's race or gender identity from their photo and name is dodgy business."

Ugghh, I wish she'd write honestly: "I know that I can't reliably estimate things by eyeballing them, but I will anyway. As long as I cite my indiscretion later on, I can write whatever the fuck I want to."

And on "Why github is not your CV": Your animated gif is not advancing the discussion AND nobody said that github=yourCV.

You can bend reality (to your favour) but just not too much!

Hmm, sorry, when I opened it used to be an article actually (and it is not mine). Here is the cache:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:yFBroqO...

>You can bend reality (to your favour) but just not too much!

This might be reality in some hipster web startup scene. I'm glad I'm not in that domain.

BUT: If you go there from HN he dispays just the gif

Wow, ... he seems to protect his article from the HN-crowd :-D

But generally good public (e.g. on github) standing should justifiy you a job (maybe even a highly paid one)

EDIT: Wow, thanks for the downvotes: Just to let you know: I LIVE (and work since almost 10 years) IN Europe! I have 2 (relevant!) projects on github and usually don't talk about them at hiring situations (though they are mentioned in my CV and are actually used (and appreciated) by people out there)

But look... you may just know better (and I am eager to hear your reply) !

I live in Europe too, in the UK, and know it's important to talk about personal projects if you're not entering a super-corporate environment. That you choose to downplay your experience is up to you, but I wouldn't say it was sound advice for others.

I am 63, and I realize that I might not be as effective as I once was. What I do is offer a really low rate for telecommuting from home, and a much larger rate when working on site. So, for the last many years, I work cheaply from home and occasionally work on site (most recently at Google) for a much better consulting rate.

I don't know if your father has the financial flexibility to follow my plan, but it works for me.

Judgement based on long experience can be enormously valuable. You may see in your client's current circumstances a dynamic you worked through 30 years ago. As a result, you may save your client a month or two exploring solutions you know won't work for them.

That's incredibly valuable. Consider that when pricing your services.

It's not all about how fast you can hammer out bits and bytes.

This is where experience really counts. Younger developers who don't know any better will invent another logging framework, I guarantee it.

I find it incredibly sad that I even need to think about this. I regret that I even participated in this circus in the first place. I now only work for companies with don't have the ass-in-seats-for-80h policy. It's actually interesting that in startups where this works, people self-select and end up there. It's amazing how much more you can achieve if you can afford to take a step back, and not worry how you can run in circles even farther and faster.

Have the courage to stop, sleep, eat and then come back with a fresh mind.

There is a lot of value in having someone who is always available. That is not me since I work in spurts, with long breaks. I think lack of always on, immediate availability is important for some projects, and I am unwilling to do that.

Check out:

https://weworkremotely.com/

http://hnhiring.com/ (search for "remote")

http://remotenation.co/blog/top-5-sites-for-finding-a-remote...

I found the company where I'm not CTO via HN "who's hiring" in 2010.

My colleagues are scattered as well, and I don't know their ages. I haven't even met several of them in person, though we know each others' voices quite well by now!

Note to OP: it's worth posting a bit more about your father's experience; we're only sort-of hiring (and so haven't been posting to the threads on HN) but we're not doing Django or MongoDB... so it's hard to say if we'd be interested. No hard in sending a CV my way, anyway (see profile).

http://jobmote.com/

http://careers.stackoverflow.com/jobs?allowsremote=true

Drop me an email; we're hiring.

I think a big advantage of Guadalajara over Mexico City is that it's a big enough city without the downsides of a huge metropolis, and is very affordable for engineers to live on pretty good areas, i bike about 10 minutes to work every day and love it.

His best bet is to move around in the EU, and go to a country that is willing to hire him. Place like UK, France are likely doing better than Spain is, and will probably have more jobs.

I work in Malaysia, and by that age, you will have hard time finding work as a developer, since people are expecting you to start manage other people after a certain age.

The economics are different, most jobs here are based on projects, there is not much product work. Even if you get infinitely better over time, there is not much economic on leveraging the knowledge, especially if you are the only one on the team that can be that good.

Companies tend not to keep people long and people are keep moving on companies once projects are done, unless new projects are on the line.

Since the turnover rate is high, it will only make sense to keep thing simple, hence there is not much use of much advanced knowledge of anyone.

Because of that, up to a certain age, you very much reached the plateau of the max knowledge expected at the market. Keeping your development skill better may help you with your job, but it may not bring much to the negotiation table. That also means, it make sense to hire cheaper, younger talent if both have reach past the plateau, no matter which one is better. I am guessing this is a reason that people are expecting you to move "up" to the management ladder past the age.

I employ people (fully remotely) all over the world, and I help several other companies do the same (I assume basic professional/IT English). I'm not actively hiring right now, but I know a few companies who are.

My email is in my profile. Best of luck regardless.

Have him keep at it. Someone will appreciate what he's got.

I'm not particularly impressed by this logic.

The age group of my current workplace probably averages early 30's, and we have a lot of people taking time off to have babies. I seem to be the only person that does any work a lot of the time.

The worst part is the fact that if I were to actually hire like that, it'd be illegal. That's what sucks.

Land of the free though, right?

There's generally no career path for a developer that involves still doing a lot of development.

Consider the other extreme: long-established businesses are desperate for developers capable of working on old systems like COBOL, 370 Assembler, etc. His "tons of experience" mean he is familiar with old-school tools & mindset, things which new developers can't fathom in a world of smartphones & clouds. Such developers made a pile of money 15 years ago when a burst of manpower was needed to solve the then-looming "Y2K bug"; those talents are still very much in demand, and there's a lot fewer developers able & willing to work on those systems.

Mainframe developers are still needed. Society isn't creating any more of them. Supply + demand = write your own check in this niche, so long as you'll work on anything anywhere.

How do I do this? Because I change the mindset away from looking for a job based on skills to showing the value your father can add to a company

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/nemcv

Feel free to contact me (info in profile) regarding any questions. :)

I hope your dad will finaly get some nice job!

-

For this reason, I'm in favor of the universal revenue, lifetime income, citizen income, whatever you call it.

I'm ben <squiggly a> perurbis <dot> com

Just like I hope that [your favorite social startup] does not have my user information in MongoDB. I don't want to lose my [points | badges | messages | likes | some other mundane detail that I cannot live without in my first world problem kind of way.

For comparison, I don't like working with young people. Always excited about new technologies, but they usually have no experience in anything and manage to delay every project and make a mess out of it. And there's also the meta-activities associated with young age. We don't just work, but we do all kind of meaningless forced social crap and boast about life and show our gadgets.

With older people, it's much more professional. It's just professional work, which gets done, and doesn't expand into our private lives.

Anyway, thanks for the tip about the Monthly HN thread - he will definitely post there :)

I guess owning the customer relationship is key here.

However Xerox itself is a very senior-orientated company, at least here in New Zealand. Has he reached out to his network to see if there are any positions going where he'll get a palm greased?

Unfortunately the pay would likely be why he turned it down.

There is a big lesson here for everybody.

I am still young and am always relocating to find better projects and conditions, and its been working for me in this past 5 years. But now I know that there is also a lot of companies out there that are willing to hire people from across the globe and let them work remotely.

Those jobs are not easy to find, and are a small minority in the job market, but they are a beacon of hope for really good devs for which relocating is not an option. You (royal you ... which means potentially your dad) will generally get good money but might have to set up your own taxes, insurances and benefits, so it's not as hassle free as just being a normal employee.

Relocation, IMO, is always an option. Just speaking English is enough ... and English is not hard.

The thing is that if you provide nothing for potential employers to see, then all they would see is resume and eventually your age. Make him get out there, make friends, build connections, show case what he has done online, get potential employers to see past his resume and age. When you provide nothing for them to see, they'll see what's in front of them. That is an older man trying to live in a young man's world.

When you are an older developer, it'll definitely take more work to get hired. You have to do more to stand out. Just sending out resumes isn't gonna do much good in this day and age. Your connections is what going to get you hired. It's true in Spain, London, EU, Asia and everywhere else.

I'm sure your dad's experience warrants a premium over others but anybody asking 5x what other devs make are going to have difficulty finding a job unless they have exceptional reputation, contacts and some luck.

This would also mean that the problem is not specific to his age but to the whole market for devs in your area.

    Software Architect & Developer
    Madrid Area, SpainInformation Technology and Services
    Current	Proyecto Asturix, Asturlibre
    Previous	MeetPays, Yestilo, UPTA España
    Education	10Gen

General situation in Spain is quite shitty and age / gender discrimination is unfortunately still rampant here. My advice would be to keep his eyes open but definitely look for options in UK / Germany.

Most coders have a much larger github repo than Linked In page. Guess everyone disagrees with this...

I am moved by all the support shown here to your father: hopefully it will help him boost his morale. I encourage you to keep digging too - it's payback time.

It's not age discrimination, but it's still crappy.

He should send his CV here: http://www.geoban.com/es/estaticas/index.asp?wm=320&id=95

I think that's one of the most effective ways to convince someone that you haven't been resting on your laurels/are still innovating.

Also, he could take the chance (assuming you guys are not 3 steps from being on the curb) to try and bootstrap a small startup -- 56 years is a ton of experience, he has to know some pain points in some markets/communities that he can fix (maybe his own?) and charge people money for.

The thing is that he is actually 3 steps from being on the curb (I live alone and am economically independent)

In that case, I would suggest that he applies to some of the bigger companies (like... real big), like HP/Dell, and market himself as a "tech-lead" -- it's got more hope of being near code than a project manager, and they value experience (and it's relatively easy to get into big companies)... Though I don't know which big companies are in spain (AFAIK that's where you are?)

In Canada, there are organizations for older job hunters that help with resume preparation and cover letters, job hunting techniques, how to network effectively, etc. Working with others in a similar situation is great for your morale. I wish him good luck.

Good luck to you and your father

http://www.openstack.org/community/

And those who points out how important it is to be active on the net are right. At least set up a nice LinkedIn account.

I'm an avid HN reader and a somewhat active member but never imagined this could go up to the frontpage, you all are awesome.

I told my father about all the opportunities and interesting comments here, and will continue helping him get a job. Thanks :)

How about remote work within the European Union? I am in the US so I am not familiar with how common that is in Europe.

https://github.com/fesplugas

Wish you both the best of luck.

A 56 yo will probably expect much more, and companies won't be willing to... I mean, they are just evil.

[email protected]

Could you somehow make me available your email? I would like to send you a couple of suggestions which I rather do in private.

cheers from Recife.

Over here, on most graduate schemes you can straight in as developer, consultant, project manager depending on what you chose. You usually start of as assistant project manager though.

It's a separate career path, not a senior role.

If you ever had eye surgery or used a vending machine, you've probably used his equipment. You've probably visited a couple of web sites he created for large companies. He's worked on Hollywood movies and you can see his face in some of them. I would almost go as far as say he's the most interesting man in the world.

Over the past year, he's gotten zero replies to any of the resumes he's sent out. Two companies complained they needed their sites updated and managed in their want ad yet, today, those same sites have changed little and are still awful.

Yet, I look out my home office window and see him working in his garden this morning.

www.ProjectAmericanDream.com

Seriously, it could change his life in a major way.

If the former, given your experience on this site, I don't see how you can not know how wrong that is here.

On advising he start a business. Launching a successful business is the greatest liberator. For OP's father a nice lifestyle business would provide him with security as he gets older. What happens when he is 60, 70, 75. None of these people talking about helping will hire him. That's an illusion. My statement could be wrong in this particular case but it isn't for the overwhelming majority of older engineers.

If your comment is about the link. No, it isn't spam at all. The registration period is now closed so I can no longer provide links to the content. I personally know somewhere in the range of 50 people doing this program through being a mentor for a local meetup group for members. There's an annual conference for the program. I believe the next one is in February. Sir Richard Branson will be the keynote speaker. So, no, not a scam or spam. The fact that people down-voted it or dismissed it as such is only a reflection of HN bias. I hope the OP did get a chance to consider it before this was voted down to the bottom and the registration period ended.