News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by jimmyjazz14 on Monday September 28, 2026 @05:47PM (#49884885)
> We must move past vague discussions of “AI” and instead isolate the specific types of systems that are creating problems.

This is absolutely correct and its surprising how rarely you see commenters in the media push to go into the specifics on this. AI is just matrix math and its what you connect that math to that matters, we should talk a little more about what we are willing to connect AI to and little less about how scary or capable the models appear.

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by throwitaway222 on Monday September 28, 2026 @06:25PM (#49885321)
But you can't stop someone from connecting AI to something at this point, so your point is moot.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by egypturnash on Monday September 28, 2026 @06:33PM (#49885410)
You could say it's illegal to connect AI to something, with heavy penalties if you're caught doing it anyway.

You could say that the human who hooked up an AI that did something that's already illegal is liable for the AI's actions. You could say that setting up an AI to do something illegal results in, ooh, an automatic multiplier of 10x on whatever the penalty for its illegal actions are.

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by throwitaway222 on Monday September 28, 2026 @06:40PM (#49885461)
There is no political willpower to do that. We have literally reached endgame.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by egypturnash on Monday September 28, 2026 @06:44PM (#49885507)
Strong words coming from "throwitaway222".
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by phoghed on Monday September 28, 2026 @06:58PM (#49885628)
Inane words coming from “egypturnash”

What’s this even supposed to mean? Not enough gravitas in the user name? Would you change your opinion if it was “serious-business”

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by sakex on Monday September 28, 2026 @07:35PM (#49885949)
It's a throwaway account.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by 16bitvoid on Monday September 28, 2026 @07:48PM (#49886056)
Except they've been using it pretty actively for 5+ years.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by throwitaway222 on Monday September 28, 2026 @07:59PM (#49886145)
Eh, weird things happen when you start using your real identity on the internet.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by ridgeguy on Monday September 28, 2026 @08:32PM (#49886394)
So what? Does that mean it's wrong or noncontributive? Don't judge a book by its cover, etc.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by pjscott on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @01:14AM (#49888562)
Egypt Urnash is the pen name of a cartoonist and illustrator. Her art style is quite impressive, and I've admired it for years. Enjoy:

https://egypt.urnash.com/

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by dboreham on Monday September 28, 2026 @07:53PM (#49886100)
Ok I'll say the same thing.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by catlifeonmars on Monday September 28, 2026 @08:03PM (#49886170)
Perhaps. Personally, I think you’re biased towards the most pessimistic outcome.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by throwitaway222 on Monday September 28, 2026 @09:08PM (#49886715)
Realist. The cat is out of the bag on this - you can't make connecting an LLM to a command system illegal after hundreds of millions of people have already done so. You can however make it illegal to kill everyone with a nuke because your LLM did so. Not that it will make a difference after the nuke goes off.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by techblueberry on Monday September 28, 2026 @10:12PM (#49887249)
You dramatically overestimate the civility of your fellow citizens.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by goatlover on Monday September 28, 2026 @08:44PM (#49886514)
You mean mo political willpower form the current US administration and Congress. I'm not sure what "endgame" is supposed to mean. There are future elections, including the US midterms just weeks away.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by throwitaway222 on Monday September 28, 2026 @09:05PM (#49886683)
Even if another political power takes control, the American population is the least of our concern for it being legal or illegal to connect an LLM to a command line or job system
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by reasonableklout on Monday September 28, 2026 @08:58PM (#49886622)
Yes, and there seems to be plenty of potential energy from the American public, given something like 8 in 10 support AI regulation even if it slows down innovation: https://archive.ph/PetJ5#selection-1329.0-1329.122
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by trinsic2 on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @12:22AM (#49888243)
I'm sorry the parent is right. There is no policital will power to do anything about this from either side. Criminality is being allowed on both sides of the spectrum. Institutionalists are on the side of criminality. It keeps them in power
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by reasonableklout on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @01:20AM (#49888601)
I get the cynicism but this actually feels like a special moment in politics right now. There is a groundswell of bipartisan support for AI regulation [1] and a backlash against data centers which is a symptom of anger against the industry. It is enough for a Senate probe to be opened against OpenAI [2] and pushback against Trump's support for data centers on his own social media platform [3].

[1]: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/fox-news-poll-voters-see-ai...

[2]: https://www.axios.com/2026/09/10/openai-hugging-face-senate-...

[3]: https://www.nytimes.com/2026/09/15/us/politics/trump-truth-s...

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by trinsic2 on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @04:08PM (#49899590)
Im not much on communism because I think it can go horribly wrong in the other direction but this guy has a point about populism[0].

We keep falling for the same tricks, over and over again. There is no possibility in the current structure of government for this to be a win for the people. For anything to work, we need a structural change in the entire system.

[0] Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2XxgKM2CM0&pp=ygULbm9uIGNvb...

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by leptons on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @02:05AM (#49888861)
Maybe you don't realize that conservatives hold all 3 branches of government right now? Liberals have no power to do anything, and that is not the same thing as being complicit or having no will power. Where liberals do have power - like in California - they have started enacting laws regarding AI. Your "both sides" argument simply holds no water.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by trinsic2 on Thursday October 01, 2026 @12:11AM (#49917644)
IMHO I think this false. The are liberals complicit in the same things that are keeping the wheels of this train wreck going. When I say there is no will power on both sides, I mean it. There are plenty of people in power on the other side supporting authoritarian agendas. So with respect, I disagree that the only thing that keeps this going is one party in power.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by leptons on Thursday October 01, 2026 @04:28AM (#49919190)
You are talking about outliers, not the party. These are known as "DINOs", Democrats In Name Only. Their votes do not indicate that "both sides are the same". "No will power" means nobody wants it, but that isn't true when just a few vote that way and the Republicans have 50% of the Senate. Every time Democrats have had enough votes to overpower Republicans, they used to power toenact liberal policies.

So you can think it's false, but then you look like you are not paying attention.

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by pjmlp on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @01:58AM (#49888809)
As it is, I am not sure that in what concerns US administration, elections will solve anything, this assuming that they won't be tainted like in many non democratic countries with "elections".
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by fcarraldo on Monday September 28, 2026 @10:15PM (#49887270)
We don’t even need to jump straight to legal penalties - why not just regulate that these companies can’t build partnerships with organizations in designated risky/regulated industries such as biotech, defense, etc?

Instead of what they are doing now, which appears to be actively courting as many of them as possible for vast sums of money.

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by jagged-chisel on Monday September 28, 2026 @10:22PM (#49887310)
You need penalties in the regulations preventing these partnerships. Without penalties, there’s no force behind the regulations.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by fcarraldo on Monday September 28, 2026 @10:23PM (#49887318)
Sorry, let me clarify. Regulations should have legal penalties for the corporations who violate them, yes.

What I meant was that we do not need to go from the Wild West straight to “anyone who, as an individual, connects a `bad thing` to an LLM will go to jail”

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by classified on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @01:00AM (#49888464)
Why not?
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by ben_w on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @03:15AM (#49889365)
> We don’t even need to jump straight to legal penalties - why not just regulate that these companies can’t build partnerships with organizations in designated risky/regulated industries such as biotech, defense, etc?

This would be a good idea, but good luck, you'll need it because…

> Instead of what they are doing now, which appears to be actively courting as many of them as possible for vast sums of money.

… it's worse than that.

Anthropic may have wanted some defence sector money, but when they tried to say "no" to certain uses on the quite reasonable grounds ~"WTF are you nuts?" the US government tried to force them to supply it anyway.

And that's before we get "what do you mean by partnership?": people on Hacker News have been critical of the e.g. anti-bioweapons type guardrails on models ("censored", "lobotomised", etc.) since at least GPT-4*, so while "billion dollar mega-project headline" is obviously bad, there's an important sense in which "partnership" goes all the way down to one racial supremacist in a shed asking an LLM for help making ricin.

Here's someone three years ago replying to me to say "There’s no way to build out a wet lab with a chatbot for weapons production. It’s just not feasible. Your example is a fantasy.", and yet here we are in late 2026 with news about AI labs investing in bio wet labs and getting their LLMs to do research: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38331225

Good thing it's not a weapons lab, eh? (Would anyone even tell us if they made an agent do weapons?)

* or even GPT-2, if you count all the people mocking them for trying to practice safety while failure was still not a disaster.

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by latentsea on Monday September 28, 2026 @10:31PM (#49887369)
> You could say it's illegal to connect AI to something, with heavy penalties if you're caught doing it anyway

You wouldn't download a car.

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by Capricorn2481 on Monday September 28, 2026 @08:03PM (#49886174)
I don't see anything materially different between me running a curl request that exploits something vs my local AI running a curl request. They're both programs I run on my computer. That's all Open AI is doing. They are hacking people from their computers. There's nothing complicated about it.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by topaz0 on Monday September 28, 2026 @10:34PM (#49887384)
No difference except that they're doing it from thousands or millions of computers at a time
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by eloisius on Monday September 28, 2026 @11:08PM (#49887613)
So, it's a botnet, and those have been around for a long time. Only now it's operated by a US company instead of Russian mafia or whoever.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by topaz0 on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @09:49AM (#49893228)
Well I guess the other difference is that the Russian Mafia has no illusions about the fact that they're doing crimes.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by voidhorse on Monday September 28, 2026 @11:04PM (#49887580)
Right, and further, I doubt a defense of "I downloaded this worm from the deep web but I didn't know it would hack everyone when I ran it" would fly in court, yet that's exactly what the "I shouldn't be responsible because my agent "escaped containment"" defense is.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by adamsb6 on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @02:03AM (#49888840)
Our legal system has recognized mens rea as relevant for a very long time.

If your dog bites someone unbidden you bear less responsibility than if you had commanded the dog to attack.

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by rhdunn on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @02:16AM (#49888943)
What if you've been training your dog to bite people? (I.e. in OpenAI's case training their models around finding exploits in software, training on cyber security material, etc.)
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by __alexs on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @04:28AM (#49889947)
Negligence is also a well understood legal concept.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by olsondv on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @07:32AM (#49891454)
For dogs, it moves from civil to criminal with circumstances such as what the owner knew about the dog’s behavior, how serious the injury was, whether the owner intentionally or recklessly allowed the dangerous situation, and any prior incidents. Same can easily be applied to AI labs.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by Cthulhu_ on Wednesday September 30, 2026 @07:53AM (#49907587)
At this point though, we know AI can "escape" and do criminal acts it wasn't told to do - therefore, if it happens again (= if the developers allow it to happen again) they (the developers) can be held responsible.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by pclowes on Monday September 28, 2026 @10:54PM (#49887511)
Yes you can, the US could shut down the entire internet if it wanted.

While that is extreme, if there is a high p(doom) it is also reasonable.

We can absolutely do things to control AI and fine or imprison those who can’t control theirs. This is not some inevitable outcome.

We could vaporize these companies tomorrow if we wanted.

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by fauchletenerum on Monday September 28, 2026 @11:05PM (#49887590)
> Yes you can, the US could shut down the entire internet if it wanted.

No, they can't. The rest of the world would just route around the US with BGP. All of the US infrastructure/service providers would be down, so a ton of things would break, but the Internet would not be "shut down". The US government also no longer has authority over the DNS root servers. So unless you're referring to thermonuclear war or some similar scenario then the US does not have this capability.

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by adamsb6 on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @02:15AM (#49888932)
The Internet is more hub and spoke than I think many people would like to think.

For example, there’s one building in Seattle that would cause region-wide problems if it was knocked offline.

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by pclowes on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @01:29PM (#49897039)
This is a thought experiment. People keep running around glibly talking about p(doom) which is the extinction of the entire human race.

They are throwing numbers out like “10%”.

If they are serious and believed then yes, prepare for the possibility of very extreme reactions at a global and potentially nuclear scale.

World Wars flattened cities all over the world for much less.

We can’t talk about AI being the end of the species and not expect the most extreme reactions in global History.

Or maybe we just put some nerds who cant control their agents and keep running their mouths in jail?

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by abletonlive on Monday September 28, 2026 @11:15PM (#49887673)
these doomers are thrashing way too hard right now. if anybody is dangerous it's obviously them.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by wartywhoa23 on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @03:17AM (#49889381)
Yes, these goddamn terrorists and foreign agents, how dare they encroach on the pollyannaish utopia!
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by eloisius on Monday September 28, 2026 @11:06PM (#49887595)
Why does it need to come down to making it illegal to connect AI to something that influences real-world outcomes? Just do what we should already be doing: hold operators accountable for launching cyber attacks with a botnet.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by amelius on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @04:55AM (#49890172)
And give them slaps on the wrist, like what happens now when they don't take security seriously and everybody's data ends up on the streets?
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by Cthulhu_ on Wednesday September 30, 2026 @07:51AM (#49907573)
You can't stop someone, no, but you can make it illegal so that at the very least, the major providers are compliant and anyone else will need to jump through the hoops. Like many "mildly" illegal things today like pirating films - it's easy enough if you know what you're doing, but finding and downloading a torrent file is still enough of an obstacle for >90%* of internet users

* number pulled out of my ass

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by Animats on Monday September 28, 2026 @06:07PM (#49885119)
Yes.

A good start might be removing virology info above the undergraduate level from training sets. The main "kills everybody" threat involves biological viruses.

AI-driven hacking is a problem, but it's really just nation-state level hacking available to smaller companies or wealthy individuals. Everything needs to be toughened up to the point that doesn't work. Ask countries that have been up against Russian hacking for years, such as Estonia.

Beyond that, most of the threats are not that serious. Below the level of organized crime or corrupt government.

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by goatlover on Monday September 28, 2026 @08:56PM (#49886611)
There's no evidence that a doomsday virus can be created. There's a tradeoff between how infectious and how deadly a disease is. You would have to develop a two-stage virus, and that would require a large lab or labs with material being shipped there. Something humans would definitely notice. Even then, how would the virus reach literally everyone? People will take measures to not become infected once the threat has been identified, and some people and groups are isolated as it is. And no virus kills everyone. Rabies comes closest at 99%. But unlike what the zombie genre would have you believe, it has a poor means of delivery.

This isn't like vibe coding. The AI would have to make the virus in laboratory conditions and then disseminate it globally without prior detection.

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by pvab3 on Monday September 28, 2026 @09:11PM (#49886751)
I believe the main fear is bioterrorism
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by foobiekr on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @01:51AM (#49888781)
You don’t need to attack humans directly. Simply making and distributing a virus or fungus that successfully damages the grasses that we use for the bulk of our calories would do the job.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by oblio on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @04:09AM (#49889801)
You'd need to hit wheat, corn AND rice at the same time. And we probably have 10 others we're not using because those 3 are already enough. It would be a tragedy but we can eat lots of things.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by foobiekr on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @12:43PM (#49896222)
They are very closely related and share a number of fungal pathogens. In addition as grown they are almost a small set of monocultures.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by m4x on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @06:06AM (#49890708)
"Simply"? You might as well say the same thing about creating a doomsday virus.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by plastic-enjoyer on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @06:58AM (#49891118)
Yes, with AI I will be able to simply build a doomsday machine. Claude will just tell me how to build a supply chain, circumvent regulations and do this without anyone finding out.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by hatthew on Monday September 28, 2026 @06:35PM (#49885423)
> AI is just matrix math

Following the definition set for decades, AI isn't necessarily even as advanced as matrix math

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by hollerith on Monday September 28, 2026 @06:29PM (#49885360)
>AI is just matrix math

Digital child porn is just ones and zeros. Surely we're not going to pass a law to regulate ones and zeros?

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by bunderbunder on Monday September 28, 2026 @07:47PM (#49886046)
You just quoted the first 33% of words in an independent clause, then restated the point being made in the remaining 67% as if it were somehow a rebuttal.

Why?

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by hollerith on Monday September 28, 2026 @09:06PM (#49886697)
>restated the point being made in the remaining 67%

That's not an accurate description of my intent—or how my comment landed with most readers AFAICT.

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by bunderbunder on Monday September 28, 2026 @10:09PM (#49887230)
The original statement pointed out that it’s just matrix math as a way of indicating that the technology itself is ethically neutral, and then went on to say that what we really need to pay attention to is how it’s being used. The “connect to” choice of words is clumsy and I don’t love it, but it does at least get at the point that AI doesn’t inherently become responsible or irresponsible until you hook it up and actually start doing things with it.

Which, if it’s not exactly the same point, I’m pretty sure it at least cuts quite close to the point of your rhetorical question, right? That the problem isn’t with the ones and zeros, it’s with what certain people are doing with the ones and zeros?

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by hollerith on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @01:27AM (#49888652)
I think the problem is the ones and zeros or the linear algebra if you want to use that metaphor. I believe "progress" in AI needs to be stopped. AI researchers need to find something else to do with their lives.

My first comment was an attempt to show the "it's just linear algebra" argument in an absurd light.

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by plastic-enjoyer on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @07:01AM (#49891150)
> The original statement pointed out that it’s just matrix math as a way of indicating that the technology itself is ethically neutral, and then went on to say that what we really need to pay attention to is how it’s being used.

I think the idea that this technology is ethically neutral needs a discussion.

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by bunderbunder on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @07:24AM (#49891385)
Would you care to elaborate?
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by plastic-enjoyer on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @09:17AM (#49892738)
A matrix is a mathematical abstraction, a technique for representing and manipulating relationships between quantities. You can call matrix math a technology, but then the term loses most of its meaning. I'd reserve the term "technology" for designed artifacts and systems: cars, guns, social media platforms, LLMs. Design requires intentionality, and these things are built by particular people, for particular purposes, under particular constraints, and those purposes get built into them. A gun is designed to kill and that purpose doesn't disappear depending on who holds it. Ad-funded social media platforms are optimized for engagement, and features like infinite scroll exploit known cognitive tendencies to achieve that. With LLMs, developers decide what data the model learns from, what it will and won't do, and whose values shape it's behavior. Of course, how we use technology matters too. But building something is a deliberate process, in which the builder makes a series of decisions about what to build and how. Many of those decisions involve trade-offs that affects people. That's why I find it unconvincing that technology is ethically neutral.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by bunderbunder on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @09:31AM (#49892956)
It sounds like we agree on everything but some semantic distinctions.

Because I would argue that the thing that might make an LLM harmful or not is not the underlying technology. It’s the ways its training data were acquired, the purposes for which the model was trained, the applications for which it’s being deployed, etc.

The fixating on “it’s just matrix math” doesn’t feel useful to me. I’m an NLP person and agree that it’s a huge oversimplification. But the original commenter’s purpose was not to educate people about how LLMs work in detail, and so being pedantic about it only serves to steer the conversation in an unedifying direction.

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by maedla on Monday September 28, 2026 @06:38PM (#49885451)
Yes, the ones and zeroes that make up that sort of content
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by amelius on Monday September 28, 2026 @06:15PM (#49885214)
AI is basically "Bobby Tables" but without a known proper engineering approach to solve it.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by pixl97 on Monday September 28, 2026 @06:26PM (#49885329)
>AI is just matrix math

Just is doing a lot of heavy lifting there.

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by nradov on Monday September 28, 2026 @07:10PM (#49885730)
What is "AI"? Are you referring specifically to LLMs powered by matrix math or a more general concept? Could that even be legislated in a way that wouldn't fall afoul of the vagueness doctrine?
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by mplewis on Monday September 28, 2026 @07:22PM (#49885851)
that's literally what OP's comment is talking about
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by iambateman on Monday September 28, 2026 @09:13PM (#49886766)
Most of the commenters in the media are very much hoping the conversation doesn’t get to that level.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by Insanity on Monday September 28, 2026 @11:56PM (#49888011)
“Commenters in the media” is fair - but Newport is also a compsci professor. He genuinely seems to understand what he’s talking about when you read his content or watch his videos.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by yodsanklai on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @12:35AM (#49888315)
A point that Yann LeCun has been making for a while is that it's meaningless to regulate AI, but we want to regulate applications. For instance, you don't want autonomous vehicles to hit people, whether they use AI or not. In practice, most applications of AI are already regulated.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by thaumasiotes on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @02:20AM (#49888967)
> For instance, you don't want autonomous vehicles to hit people, whether they use AI or not.

What would it mean for a vehicle to be "autonomous", but to "not use AI"?

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by ehe78qhe on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @02:21AM (#49888979)
Trains are often highly automated without AI, for example. Aircraft are often automated for most of their flight without AI.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by thaumasiotes on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @02:24AM (#49889005)
> Aircraft are often automated for most of their flight without AI.

What do you mean? I can just as easily say that Claude Code operates "without AI". It would make about as much sense.

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by maddie0 on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @02:30AM (#49889038)
look, there's a lot of room to complain about moving the goalposts of what counts as AI, I get it

but I don't think a simple PID controller in the autopilotnmanaging altitude, heading, and the like has ever been categorized as "AI." Cybernetics, maybe.

even the rules managing the flight envelope and MCAS on the 737 Max, or the Airbus implementations of flight law, sure seem to have relatively few of the attributes that tend to get the label these days

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by KaiserPro on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @03:11AM (#49889338)
It means you are out here autonomously dropping logical fallacies.

Autopilots are autonomous, without AI. lane following and collision avoidance in most cars, don't use "AI" they use classic computer vision and good old fashioned radar.

The difference here is that claude code fails to perform what it's intended to do without a model attached, a plane/car doesn't.

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by ozgung on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @03:43AM (#49889599)
Classical Computer Vision is AI. Computer Vision is a subfield of AI since the beginning.

People may confuse AI with Machine Learning. “Classical” computer vision generally means non-learning based techniques. But ML is also not new to computer vision. So non-classical actually means using Deep Learning.

So today when people say AI they actually mean Deep Learning.

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by LtWorf on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @04:48AM (#49890108)
Computer vision is not AI? This is complete news to me.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by amelius on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @04:44AM (#49890077)
You could also say that a human is just a bunch of atoms.

Thankfully, courts will look at it differently.

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by ehe78qhe on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @05:07AM (#49890252)
After staring at your comment for a while I think what's happened is you've confused the non-AI autopilot and flight control systems used in an airliner with the AI-driven autonomy being used in military drones.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by Sharlin on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @07:45AM (#49891572)
GP's point is that the goalposts of what counts as "AI" have been constantly shifted for decades, and right not it seems that even many HN commenters seem to have somehow gotten the idea that "AI" strictly means "deep learning neural networks" (or something even more specific like "generative transformers"). GP just went a bit too far in the opposite direction, being too inclusive in their definition.

FWIW, my working definition of "AI" is "anything discussed in the latest edition of Artificial Intelligence: A Modern Approach". It seems to work well.

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by thaumasiotes on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @01:14PM (#49896729)
> GP just went a bit too far in the opposite direction, being too inclusive in their definition.

> FWIW, my working definition of "AI" is "anything discussed in the latest edition of Artificial Intelligence: A Modern Approach". It seems to work well.

You're kidding, right? It's never been an obscure term. If a computer is making decisions, that's AI.

Here's a pretty common usage: https://www.reddit.com/r/broodwar/comments/ixzwl4/are_there_...

> I'm getting back into [Starcraft: ] Brood War after a long break. Don't have the time to play ladder, but want to be able to play 1v1 against AI, however, the stock AI in remastered is terrible

Game AI is invariably called by that term and generally implemented as a fairly simple if-else ladder. In a taxonomy I guess it would be called an "expert system"; I can find them mentioned in the detailed table of contents to AIMA (3rd edition), but not in the simplified table of contents to AIMA (4th). They might still be in there, in the same section titled "Making Simple Decisions". Norvig doesn't really bother to consider expert systems with probabilities constrained to 1 or 0, though.

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by Sharlin on Wednesday September 30, 2026 @12:37AM (#49904409)
No, I’m not kidding when I say that some people even in this thread are claiming that AI = DLNNs, essentially.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by Tanjreeve on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @05:09AM (#49890273)
The fact this thread descended into a load of philosophical chin stroking about what is truly AI perfectly illustrates the core point that all regulation should just be targeted at use cases and what people are doing with the software.

If a plane could run on some sort of local LLM it should still be governed by the same laws and damages when something goes wrong same as people don't spend time quibbling about the implementation language of software they care about demonstrating capabilities.

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by throwawayffffas on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @05:15AM (#49890320)
Autopilots perceive the environment, reason, plan and execute actions. Autopilots are AI.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by wongarsu on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @07:03AM (#49891173)
In the academic definition of AI (which includes things like pathfinding with A* or Djikstra's algorithm) autopilots are definitely AI.

The popular definition of AI seems to shift every couple of years to follow hype cycles. Chess computers used to be AI (and fit your definition), now they are not. Not sure if Resnet is still AI today, or if autopilots still qualify

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by ehe78qhe on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @05:29AM (#49890411)
Most autopilots don't involve reasoning and planning. In fact, autopilots predate digital computers. The first ones were developed prior to WW1.

If a basic heading hold PID loop is AI so is a thermostat from 1990. At which point the word is so meaningless it is obviously a useless definition.

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by throwawayffffas on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @05:58AM (#49890644)
Ofcourse they do reasoning and planning, it's entirely encoded in software ofcourse, but modern autopilots don't just hold a course, they perform maneuvers and follow waypoints the process of turning the objective turn 35 degrees to actuator inputs is reasoning and planning.

AI is not magic it's software, the definition is far from pointless, google maps giving you a route to your destination is AI.

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by dminik on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @06:37AM (#49890936)
My recipe book has 300 AIs and all are delicious. Google Maps running A* or whatever is obviously not AI. Come on.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by gizajob on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @07:19AM (#49891343)
You can’t say to an autopilot “create an excel spreadsheet of the current vectors and conditions and upload it to google docs”.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by throwawayffffas on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @07:35AM (#49891483)
You can't say that to an mri machine that detects and highlights tumors. You can't say it to jev either, nor googles spam filters. But all these are built in the same way as any LLM. The term AI is not restricted to chat based LLMs.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by gizajob on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @07:39AM (#49891509)
None of that applies to autopilots though and it’s disingenuous for anyone to say that an autopilot is an AI rather than an automated system designed for a very specific task.

An autopilot is cybernetic without being intelligent.

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by throwawayffffas on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @07:42AM (#49891530)
Read wongsarus comment above.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by Sharlin on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @07:46AM (#49891588)
That is neither a sufficient nor necessary condition for something to be AI.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by gizajob on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @07:54AM (#49891665)
I was giving a framing around its complete lack of generality or intelligence. Rather than contemporary definitions of AI shifting, what is being shown is that previous definitions of AI were misapplied in the hope that the field might bootstrap itself into existence, which it’s done.

As I’ve said elsewhere - an autopilot is cybernetic, it responds to inputs and stimulus in data but it doesn’t possess anything we’d now regard as falling under intelligence because it’s a strictly coded deterministic system and designed for it’s specific environment. I couldn’t take the autopilot from a Boeing and put it into an Airbus and hope for any kind of useful result. I could take a human pilot trained on a Boeing and put them in an Airbus or a Cessna, and if push came to shove in an emergency, they could probably do a decent job of getting the thing pointed in the right direction and landed on the ground.

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by toofy on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @10:51PM (#49903805)
i think you might accidentally be conflating an algorithm with the colloquial use of ai.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by wartywhoa23 on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @03:02AM (#49889260)
A road construction roller rolling downhill after its handbrake failed is as autonomous and intelligent as you, my troll.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by Cthulhu_ on Wednesday September 30, 2026 @07:49AM (#49907554)
Cruise control and lane assist.

Of course, "AI" in a previous generation was used to refer to machine learning, while "AI" now is used to refer to LLMs. I don't think LLMs are the tool to use to operate a vehicle.

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by truculent on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @04:21AM (#49889898)
Why regulate gun ownership, if homicide is already illegal ?
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by cassianoleal on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @06:01AM (#49890676)
I think you're arguing the opposite of what you think you are.

Regulating gun ownership is exactly regulating the application.

In your analogy, the gun is the AI. What you can do with the gun is the application.

Different actors with different credentials in different contexts will have different requirements and permissions of what they can do with the technology, be it a gun or AI.

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by anon-3988 on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @09:08AM (#49892597)
I am having a brain aneurysm trying to understand this

> Regulating gun ownership is exactly regulating the application. In your analogy, the gun is the AI. What you can do with the gun is the application.

From what I can tell, you are arguing that gun laws is reasonable.

> Different actors with different credentials in different contexts will have different requirements and permissions of what they can do with the technology, be it a gun or AI.

But this, is going against that, this is saying, "why should we ban AI or gun when they can be used for both good and bad. What we want is to ban bad, regardless of how it is achieved"

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by pixelatedindex on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @11:50AM (#49895412)
> From what I can tell, you are arguing that gun laws is reasonable.

You aren’t going to repeal the second amendment, so reasonable or not it’s a fact that everyone has to contend with. Do we all want guns? No. Do we all want AI? Also no.

> What we want is to ban bad, regardless of how it is achieved

No, we don’t want to ban bad. Banning doesn’t really work - the effort to reward ratio isn’t great. We want to regulate bad and see if we can minimize the damage it can do.

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by TalkingCodeMonk on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @10:03AM (#49893485)
Not really.

"Different actors with different credentials in different contexts"

The argument is that the military or police have a need for access to guns, whereas the lunatic on the street corner (or any random citizen) does not. The same argument applies for access to nuclear, biological, or chemical weapons... or autonomous hacking/killing machines...

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by cassianoleal on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @04:00PM (#49899468)
Exactly this.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by CGMthrowaway on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @03:03PM (#49898690)
There are levels to it as well. Take alcohol and driving, for example:

Level A: Who can drink it (possession and consumption law)

Level B: What you can do while drunk (DUI law)

Level C: What you can do while drinking (open container law)

All orthogonal to things like reckless driving, endangerment and creating injurious accidents, which are already criminalized without needing additional laws against alcohol use to enforce them.

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by cassianoleal on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @03:58PM (#49899448)
> From what I can tell, you are arguing that gun laws is reasonable.

Correct.

> But this, is going against that, this is saying, "why should we ban AI or gun when they can be used for both good and bad. What we want is to ban bad, regardless of how it is achieved"

Not at all. I'm saying regulations do that and they are a good thing. Not everybody can own an assault rifle. Some of the people who can, are not allowed to carry it on the streets. Police will have very different regulations towards their gun use. The army, another set of regulations. The list goes on. Even in countries who have lax gun laws, usually not all guns are allowed to everyone in all situations. No one is allowed to carry a nuke into a shopping centre.

Note that regulating and banning are very different things. I don't think you can fully ban guns or AI.

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by throwawayffffas on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @05:11AM (#49890289)
The US agrees with that argument which is why gun ownership is not really regulated.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by amanaplanacanal on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @10:17AM (#49893748)
I would say minimally regulated. For instance, felons are for the most part not allowed them, and there are certain locations where they are not allowed to be carried.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by tescreal on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @06:20PM (#49901559)
Certainly, there are exceptions. Some people (think "islands") who are forbodden from using the internet freely. The technology continues to exist largely unencumbered, but select circumstances where the risk is considered "extraordinary" are given to exception. Guns in the USA, likewise, are seen as "not the problem" except where having a gun would be considered a dangerous thing for a specific reason (schools, courts, etc.).

Full disclosure: I'm not American and do prefer a little gun regulation generally.

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by amanaplanacanal on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @06:25PM (#49901631)
It's interesting that even the most pro-second amendment judges still won't allow guns in their courtrooms.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by hashstring on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @05:03AM (#49890228)
It’s not the argument he’s making.

Firearms are an application of more general techniques like combustion, which your car is (probably) using too.

We could definitely draw lines at points where it makes most sense.

AI to detect melanomas is a completely different application than AI for autonomous warfare.

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by Cthulhu_ on Wednesday September 30, 2026 @07:47AM (#49907545)
Why regulate cars when vehicular manslaughter is already illegal?

That is, in order to drive a car you need to go through the hoops, follow a training, get a permit that can be taken away again and needs to be renewed, etc. It's not a big jump to also make that apply to guns - which I'm sure is already the case in many states.

I mean you can legally own a gun in most European countries too if you really want to, but there's various mandatory trainings and conditions to comply to, registration procedures, and I'm sure you may get unannounced home visits to double check you've stored your guns (and ammo) correctly. As per the agreement.

That sounds pretty reasonable to me.

Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by BrenBarn on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @03:42AM (#49889589)
I'd say yes, but for a different reason. The specific types of systems that are creating problems are the political/economic systems in which these AI companies exist. The types of responses we ought to be taking would destroy not only the AI companies but also basically all other large companies with too much market power in various sectors.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by RandomLensman on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @03:50AM (#49889641)
Why would it destroy all large corporations? We regulate a lot about what corporations can or cannot do in a all sorts of ways.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by BrenBarn on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @04:01AM (#49889736)
I'm saying destroying large corporations is part of what we need to do to fix things. Current regulations are woefully inadequate.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by RandomLensman on Tuesday September 29, 2026 @04:04AM (#49889760)
Sorry, but why would it be needed to fix things?
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by BrenBarn on Wednesday September 30, 2026 @12:39AM (#49904414)
Because the companies we have are just too big. Constant consolidation has left us with many economic sectors controlled by a small number of large companies, which then in addition exert pernicious influence on politics, etc. It is not healthy for either the economy or our society to have so much of the economy concentrated in such a small number of companies that are so large.
Re:It's Time to Investigate the AI Labs by perrygeo on Wednesday September 30, 2026 @10:28AM (#49909508)
Exactly! What gets lost in these discussions is the fact that LLMs are models of language. That's it. They produce text which is completely inert, until someone decides to run that code, bake that recipe, or fire at that target.

Consider how trivial it would be to write a program that would destroy every computer on the world. Any competent developer could write this in a hour. An LLM in 5 minutes. The trick is actually getting the code onto every computer in the world and running it! Until someone grants it agency and runs it IRL, the artifact has zero impact.

The models can produce whatever scary text they want. But if a human acts on it, connects that with their email or their drone weapon, it's the human who bears total responsibility. We desperately need some legislation to enforce this; otherwise I see a future where almost any accountability can be avoided by AI-washing the problem.