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Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by edw519 on Monday September 17, 2012 @07:57AM (#4532114)
My sentiments exactly. I got so tired of being upset with the horrendous human design in modern technology that I took action. What I've done:

  - Buy 2 $350 laptops every year. Move all data. Give away old ones.
  - All contacts in one .txt document.
  - Memorize most frequently used contacts.
  - No smart phone.
  - No tablet.
  - No Kindle.
  - No palm pilot.
  - No Facebook.
  - New car ('12 Hyandai) with minimal technology.
  - Wash dishes by hand. (Fuck the 48 buttons on the dishwasher.)
  - Use Firefox.
  - Use dedicated Casio camera with USB interface.
I love modern technology that adds real value.

I don't use any modern technology that replaces perfectly good methods with something unnecessary just because everyone else is doing it.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by alexholehouse on Monday September 17, 2012 @09:24AM (#4532413)
Clearly some of these are life choices, and important ones which almost certainly make sense to you, but one thing;

No dishwasher?

I don't really understand this. My dishwasher has a single wheel and a switch. The switch is "heated dry" [ON|OFF] and the wheel sets to one of three positions ("light wash", "normal wash", "medium wash"). If you're only washing dishes for one then I guess this makes sense, but I fail to grasp how an example of a bad dishwasher user interface is a barrier to all dishwashers (at least in terms of UI - clearly you may have environment reasons).

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by neutronicus on Monday September 17, 2012 @12:12PM (#4533236)
Personally, I just don't like dishwashers. They don't seem to save any work - I still basically have to clean the dishes in order to precondition them for the dishwasher, and now they create this monumental chore (put everyone's dishes away) that all the dishwasher users are constantly trying to avoid and foist off on the other dishwasher users. No, thank you.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by JoeAltmaier on Monday September 17, 2012 @12:41PM (#4533394)
Been there; done that. And once I bought a dishwasher, I lost all motivation to do it by hand.

Scraping off stuck stuff, the whole process of cleaning the sink, plugging it and filling it with water, sorting dishes by category (do the glasses first! Pots last!), running out of room to put the dry dishes so dry hands and put some away, then back to washing.

Its not unpleasant, but just lots of work and the dishwasher does a decent job with 60 seconds of effort (put dry clean dishes away; rack dirty dishes, push a button). I do it before leaving for work.

Of course, now with the energy-star hoax I'm starting to regret buying a new dishwasher, but that's another discussion.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by aasarava on Monday September 17, 2012 @12:59PM (#4533524)
What do you mean by "the energy-star hoax"? (Curious.)
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by JoeAltmaier on Monday September 17, 2012 @01:03PM (#4533546)
To qualify for 'Energy Star' in the US, you have to use 10% less energy/resources (water) as last year. No standard; no other goal.

Result: clothes washers that don't wash (my washer at least has a button to override Energy Star, obliquely named Extra Rinse or Heavy Duty), dishwashers that don't get dishes clean; water heaters that deliver luke-warm water.

The goal cannot have been "Use less energy, even if it means sucking". The goal was actually "Get a sticker on your product, for marketing reasons." Thus, a hoax.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by luser001 on Monday September 17, 2012 @01:28PM (#4533683)
What clothes washer are you talking about? Do you have a top-load washer? Those are notorious water wasters that probably can't wash well without huge amounts of water.

As a counter point, I have a front-load 2011 Samsung washer and dryer. I even got some money from the Big Evil Government water district for the washer and IIRC from the Big Evil Power Company for the dryer.

I am 200% satisfied with the wash and drying quality. It will take quite a bit to convince me that energy efficiency requirements are causing problems.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by thetrb on Monday September 17, 2012 @05:25PM (#4534970)
Maybe you're lucky then. I have a similar issue as OP: I have a new dryer from LG that was rated very high by consumer reports but even at the "optimum dry" setting the clothes still stay wet and I often have to start a second drying cycle once the first one completes.

I highly doubt that running through 2 cycles saves energy compared to doing it right the first time.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by luser001 on Monday September 17, 2012 @06:56PM (#4535337)
Sorry to hear about your experience.

Kinda like a dumb tech support q.: you're cleaning out the lint filter before each use, right? :)

Second: are you sure it's your dryer? Maybe the washer isn't spinning them as dry as they need to be. Try using a washer cycle that spins harder/longer. Did you replace only the dryer w/o replacing the washer.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by JoeAltmaier on Monday September 17, 2012 @11:22PM (#4536134)
Everybody askes that. Yes, I know how to operator a dryer too. And mine leaves the clothes wet too. After a diligent effort to make the damn things work, they still suck.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by roedog on Tuesday September 18, 2012 @08:35PM (#4541389)
I had this problem. Then we cleaned out ducts from the dryer to the exhaust vent on the outside of the house.

The duct was jammed full of lint. So, no air was flowing out. The dryer had a safety interlock that disabled the heater. This is why the clothes took so long to dry. It is also why we didn't start a fire and burn down the house.

Now we clean the ducts every 18 months and the dryer works great.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by JoeAltmaier on Monday September 17, 2012 @02:12PM (#4533942)
Ok, I won't spend effort trying to convince you. Good luck with that washer; not sure if it was Energy Star since you didn't mention it (1 of 3 2011 Samsung frontloaders was EnergyStar).

The guy at the applicance store was completely sympathetic; he hears it all the time. The washers are a widespread disappointment.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by luser001 on Monday September 17, 2012 @03:23PM (#4534353)
Yes, Energy Star rated. I literally got money from the water and power company for buying it.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by eli on Monday September 17, 2012 @02:46PM (#4534152)
You larger point may hold, but I'm pretty sure Energy Star has fixed standards. It's not simply that your product most do better than its 2011 version.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by JoeAltmaier on Monday September 17, 2012 @03:20PM (#4534332)
The rating (energystar.gov) changes as the federal specification changes, and I cannot quickly find the history of that spec. They do state that its recalculated when a 50% market share of EnergyStar rated products exists.

So it is likely to change over time.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by hga on Friday September 21, 2012 @09:24AM (#4553612)
The goal was actually "Get a sticker on your product, for marketing reasons."

It's worse than that, companies save on Federal taxes by making these progressively worse appliances. Whirlpool is infamous for not just paying no taxes but getting "tax benefits" (credits they can carry forward) for 2008-10.

And my GE washer rations hot water quite fiercely. If there was enough commonality in the various model's firmware I'd sure like to join a group that reprograms them in a sane way.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by ollysb on Monday September 17, 2012 @08:12PM (#4535573)
It seems to be a feature of kitchens in Spain that the cupboards for crockery double as drying racks. The shelves are racks and the cupboards have no bottom so that the water simply falls onto the counter. My cupboard is right next to the sink as well so that whole washing process is very efficient.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by jarek on Tuesday September 18, 2012 @12:26AM (#4536323)
This is apparently a thing in Scandinavia as well. I'm a little jealous. (I do my dishes by hand and use the dishwasher as a passive drying rack. Well, at least I'm using tools for one relatively simple purpose only.)
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by emddudley on Monday September 17, 2012 @12:34PM (#4533347)
My dishwasher does not require any rinsing. It has a built-in grinder for larger food particles that get washed off.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by efa on Monday September 17, 2012 @12:56PM (#4533496)
My dishwasher also cleans beautifully with no rinsing (thought I usually rinse the big particles). Now drying is another thing all together. I usually have to hand dry dishes (especially plastic) when I take them out before putting them away.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by simon on Monday September 17, 2012 @03:23PM (#4534352)
We get around that by opening the dishwasher a few inches as soon as it's finished its cycle. That way the steam escapes, and the heat in the unit finishes drying the dishes. Most of the water you see on the contents is steam that has re-condensed onto everything.

Hope this helps. IIRC I saw an article on Popular Mechanics about this a few years ago and tried it and it works.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by tripzilch on Tuesday September 18, 2012 @07:26PM (#4541133)
I do this too. I kinda always thought it's just part of how you operate a dishwasher :) First time I opened it right after its cycle, a huge cloud escapes, so it figures that otherwise it would condense, no?

Another tip then, I don't just open it a few inches but all the way and pull out both racks. That way all the steam escapes within a few seconds and you can close up the dishwasher again. You do need a bit of ventilation but I just open my balcony door. And then, there's a few cups or glasses that have concave bottoms so they gather a bit of water. If you blow hard on them while everything is still hot, the drops will fly somewhere (it's just water), and those glasses will become fully dry thanks to the last bits of heat.

Another tip. If you wrap it up real good so no soap can get to it, you can easily cook a piece of salmon in your dishwasher. It's not a great way (cooks too hot, for too long), but it does work and that's awesome.

Another tip. If you got a compartment for a "shining agent", you can put a mix of white vinegar and ethanol in it. It works. Both of the substances easily evaporate in the heat so you won't get a vinegar smell or anything (unless you use balsamic--good luck with that). An expensive commercial shining agent might work even better, I never tried them.

Yet another tip. Maybe you have a built-in water-softener whose ion-exchanger needs recharging by pouring dishwasher salt into another compartment. The only difference between table salt and this stuff is that the granules are big so it dissolves slower. So, buy big granules table salt instead (the stuff used in table salt grinders), which is much cheaper.

Another other tip. You'll probably still do some cleaning by hand, when you need a specific utensil or something. If you use a plastic dishwasher brush, you can put that one in the dishwasher as well to clean it. I'm unsure why, but I find brushes to last a lot longer when I occasionally clean them in the dishwasher.

If you can trust your dishwasher to not leave weird residue on your stuff, you can also use this method to clean plastic hair-combs every once in a while.

A dishwasher really is a magical device. You can even put some lines of source code in the cutlery rack, and they'll come out with less bugs. True fact.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by efa on Monday September 17, 2012 @03:34PM (#4534407)
Thanks, I'll give that a try!
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by thechut on Monday September 17, 2012 @03:51PM (#4534507)
How about giving the brand and model a plug then?
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by foobarqux on Tuesday September 18, 2012 @10:49AM (#4538344)
Doesn't have a built-in grinder (whatever that is) but Fisher-Paykel dishwashers actually work. Before using a Fisher-Paykel I had same belief as OP: That dishwasher's just didn't work. Every dish washer I had used before was a piece of shit; ineffective and flimsy.

F&P is built sturdy (e.g. feel difference in the rack). Unit is built as two drawers that are operated separately, so you can start the washer with smaller loads. No multi-level racks. Has 3-4 duration-of-wash settings (up to 2+ hours), but for normal dishes I never had to use anything but fast (20 min).

They are pricey but in my opinion you should get a similar quality dishwasher or not get a dishwasher at all.

http://www.fisherpaykel.com/product/dishwashing/ Warning: website is terribly designed

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by JoeAltmaier on Monday September 17, 2012 @11:34AM (#4533024)
My latest dishwasher is 'energy star'. What that means is, every year they have to use 10% less energy and water. After the last 10 years, the dishwasher uses almost no enery nor water. And it doesn't get the dishes clean. And there's no way to override it.

My water comes from a well. Its plentiful and free. Its pointless to save a gallon, and make me hand-wash half the dishes. </rant>

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by Bud on Wednesday September 19, 2012 @12:36AM (#4542098)
You don't appear to be right about your facts on Energy Star, good sir:

http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?fuseaction=find_a_produc...

It seems to me, you just bought a crappy appliance. Go buy a better one. That will solve your problem; inaccurate ranting about energy efficiency efforts will not.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by gnaffle on Tuesday September 18, 2012 @07:24AM (#4537403)
I couldn't find anything to back up the claim that the appliances have to use 10% less energy and water each year. Do you have any documentation to back that up? You'd think this would show up in product reviews after a while?

Doesn't you dishwasher have any adjustment to set the temperature or length of the cycle? What model do you have?

My appliances are all "A" rated (EU energy label), but to get that rating for the dishwasher I have to use the "eco program", and I'd think there was something similar in the US?

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by JoeAltmaier on Tuesday September 18, 2012 @09:09AM (#4537753)
YEah, that is not a supportable claim. Probably the appliance dealer was speaking colloquially. In any case the federal standard changes pretty regularly, resulting in an erratic dropping of electric consumption requirements.

There are plenty of buttons on the washer (which is a user-interface nightmare of its own). Two help a little: 'Heavy Duty' and 'Extra Rinse'. Selecting both leaves the clothes smelling slightly less of sweat and dirt. And of course when the cycle completes, it turns off to save (miniscule) power. Turning it on results in the default settings again!

Googling it, I see no hack to defeat the settings. Just a lot of talk about strange error codes and how to reset them. Sigh.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by gnaffle on Tuesday September 18, 2012 @09:58AM (#4537980)
OK, I'm curious what kind of model you have. Is it a top or front loaded?

Mine (front loaded) has a pre-wash (2 hour program) or "soaking" mode for extra dirty clothes (4h), and I can select temperatures from 0-90 degrees celsius, but most clothes get clean at 40 degrees.

I had to do an obscure button trick described in the user manual to have it remember the previous settings after a completed cycle, though.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by JoeAltmaier on Tuesday September 18, 2012 @10:05AM (#4538029)
Not in the laundry room right now, but its from Sears, top-loaded (cramped laundry room doesn't permit front-loading), all electronic, has no agitator(!) and is a piece of junk.

Maybe I can find a trick in the manual; thanks for that idea.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by gnaffle on Tuesday September 18, 2012 @10:47AM (#4538313)
OK. I think the lack of an agitator might be the reason for the poor performance, rather than energy or water conservation (unless your washing machine is a top-loaded rotating drum type, since they work the same way as front loaders).
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by tripzilch on Tuesday September 18, 2012 @07:39PM (#4541178)
Are we hackers? There must be a way to do a firmware upgrade. Jailbreak your washer! ;-)
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by mej10 on Monday September 17, 2012 @09:42AM (#4532497)
Yeah, mine literally just has a dial that is only used to turn it on and off. No buttons, switches, anything. You just turn the dial like 0.2cm and it turns on. I can't imagine being OK with wasting time washing dishes by hand.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by irishcoffee on Monday September 17, 2012 @11:15AM (#4532925)
It's therapeutic, for me anyway.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by jamesbritt on Monday September 17, 2012 @04:40PM (#4534765)
Kind of like that for me. It takes ~10 minutes to prepare French press coffee, and since I can't really get too involved in anything away from the kitchen during this I find that I might as well wash whatever dishes are in the sink.

My sink is right by the kitchen window and I can look out past our rose bushes and watch assorted wildlife gambol and frolic. (Mostly bunnies and birds.) Kind of idyllic I suppose if you ignore the all-same-look suburban houses.

If there are a lot of dishes I'll wash certain things and load others into the dishwasher for later. But I sort of like washing dishes in my house.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by mej10 on Monday September 17, 2012 @11:33AM (#4533015)
It is funny that you describe it as therapeutic. I have several manual tasks that I would describe that way. Just not washing dishes. :)
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by SkyMarshal on Monday September 17, 2012 @12:40PM (#4533387)
After coding all day, almost any manual labor will do. Washing dishes, mowing the lawn, helping a friend move, etc.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by joverholt on Monday September 17, 2012 @11:35AM (#4533030)
I agree, wife and I wash most of our dishes, she washes, I dry. It's a great time to let your mind wonder and think about problems. Mindless tasks like drying dishes and scooping the cat box give me a chance to actually think about things in a no pressure environment.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by barking on Monday September 17, 2012 @11:58AM (#4533151)
Just wait, kids change everything!
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by SageRaven on Monday September 17, 2012 @12:24PM (#4533294)
Yup. They can then have the kids wash the dishes. ;-)
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by SLuijk on Monday September 17, 2012 @04:13PM (#4534622)
It takes a few years to get to that stage :(
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by Angostura on Tuesday September 18, 2012 @06:09AM (#4537245)
Yup, having the first baby was when we got a dishwasher.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by drivingmenuts on Monday September 17, 2012 @11:10AM (#4532898)
No dishwasher here, either.

It takes 10 minutes, start to finish, to wash and put the dishes in the rack, if I've neglected to do them for a day or two. 15 total if I towel dry them.

Yeah, the dishwasher would be more convenient, maybe, but doing it by hand is just plain faster and I don't have to multitask.

Probably cheaper, too.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by run4yourlives on Monday September 17, 2012 @01:20PM (#4533627)
Call us when you have a family, Mr. ten-minutes. :)
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by tesseractive on Tuesday September 18, 2012 @05:33AM (#4537148)
Indeed. Our dishwasher is DOA at the moment, and for a family of 4, keeping the dishes washed is an investment of several hours a week, spread out in some fashion or other.

On the plus side, I agree that it's kind of therapeutic to do them. :)

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by julien_c on Monday September 17, 2012 @11:32AM (#4533009)
Using a dishwasher actually saves water.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by thebigshane on Monday September 17, 2012 @01:45PM (#4533776)
I have a feeling this is the case as well. Can you cite any references?
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by Too on Monday September 17, 2012 @02:04PM (#4533900)
Last spec i saw of a dishwasher was 10 liters / wash. But i think that's pretty low because they were bragging with it.

Estimate how much you need by hand. Filling up the sink, 5-10L? And then rinsing it all afterwards, another 5 at least. Keep in mind that a dishwasher does about 4 meals while you usually do one at a time when you do by hand.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by icebraining on Monday September 17, 2012 @11:22AM (#4532952)
10 minutes? For how many people?
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by flatline on Monday September 17, 2012 @09:37AM (#4532466)
We have a new kitchenaid dishwasher with a fairly simple control panel (8 buttons). We already had to have the mainboard replaced by the manufacturer. Unless your dishwasher is really old, even if it appears simple, it almost certainly is not.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by engtech on Monday September 17, 2012 @09:59AM (#4532565)
My old Kitchenaid dishwasher had to have the mainboard replaced 4 times.

One fix I found online was that if you have a hotter than normal water supply, the exhaust vent isn't big enough to let all of the steam out so the board gets wet.

The service guy crimped the vent wider after I told him about that one.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by tripzilch on Tuesday September 18, 2012 @07:33PM (#4541162)
I really don't get what all my buttons are for. Well I know what they do, after reading the manual, just not why I'd want to use them, different varieties of partial dishwashing? I'm a single person household and I have no problem waiting 2-3 days until I have enough for the full program. So I only ever press the same two ("full program", "ON"). And it really should be just one: ON.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by jmduke on Monday September 17, 2012 @08:47AM (#4532267)
Two things in particular I'll attack here:

> - No Kindle

You're definitely not alone in this -- a lot of my friends still prefer hard copies over eBooks -- but as someone used to literally lugging three-four textbooks to class, plus periodicals, plus personal reading, there's a clear and definitive value add from the Kindle. (That being said, just because you don't have a Kindle doesn't mean you don't, say, read eBooks on your laptop.)

> - No Facebook

There's a huge meme of 'Facebook is worthless' both on HN and on Reddit and other tech-oriented communities that I fail to grasp. There's no other site where I can talk and keep up with my grandparents, my college roommate, and my girlfriend simultaneously.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by AgentConundrum on Monday September 17, 2012 @09:22AM (#4532396)
> You're definitely not alone in this -- a lot of my friends still prefer hard copies over eBooks

For me, it's because I own physical books, but I lease eBooks. A fact still lost on many people; there was an erroneous post about Bruce Willis suing Apple over digital property, which then spawned several posts saying "TIL (Today I Learned) I don't actually own my music". It worries me that so many people don't realize this.

DRM means that if I buy an ebook, it's mine to read. If I want to loan it to my girlfriend, things get complicated.

It seems I have three options. We can share one account, which means that if we break up, legally one of us will "lose" all our books. I can give her my device to read it, so I lose all my books while she's reading. I can buy an extra Kindle (or other device, but Kindle seems to have the most mindshare) just for sharing, which seems needlessly expensive.

It sort of seems like everyone should own two Kindles. One is for you to do whatever you like with. The second is for sharing. By this, I mean that this second Kindle is to receive a book, not lend it out. The lending Kindle can be loaded with your friend's account (n.b. this assumes you can lock it so the lendee can't buy books on the lenders account; I don't know enough about it to say), you can read one lent book at a time, then purge the account and data and start from scratch the next time.

Compare this to physical books, where lending just means handing over an object and saying "get it back to me when you're done. Or, in the case of my copy of Watchmen, "forget you still have it when you move". :)

I don't like digital media. Full stop. It's too new, and too much a moving target, for me to feel comfortable with it. Even without DRM, things are still legally uncomfortable.

Again, if I bought an album and, sans-DRM, loaded it on my girlfriend's device, I now have a copy which is potentially traceable to me (iTunes used to watermark and/or ID3-tag certain songs, but that could be a thing of the past now), that I don't control. Likewise, just ripping a CD is currently legal, but still seems a potential grey area, and if I lost/sold the CD, wouldn't I have to delete the file? So now I have to keep track of physical objects to manage my digital files.

This is all very "letter of the law" and an unnecessarily strict view of this. In reality, the way most people would handle this would be to buy the music, distribute it to appropriate people, and just forget the whole thing. People also break the DRM on Kindle books to make them usable.

My view is that if you're going to do things of questionable legality after legally buying an object, how is that really different from just grabbing the files from TPB?

Until digital media grows up, and old media companies adapt their models, I'll stick to radio/internet-radio-streams, physical books, and DVDs.

(That turned into a rant. Apologies all around.)

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by bad_user on Monday September 17, 2012 @10:26AM (#4532696)
I bought a Kindle so that I could read all those books from project Gutenberg.

That's basically (a) time saved on shipping + (b) money saved since those books are in the public domain + (c) no trees were cut for me to read those books + (d) storage efficiency.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by dredmorbius on Monday September 17, 2012 @03:08PM (#4534274)
That's pretty much the use case I envision for myself.

That or some sort of company library for tech docs.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by icebraining on Monday September 17, 2012 @10:08AM (#4532604)
My view is that if you're going to do things of questionable legality after legally buying an object, how is that really different from just grabbing the files from TPB?

It depends on your motivation. If you buy them to Follow The Law™, then yes, it's mostly the same, but if you buy them to reward the people who made the thing, then it's not.

In any case, there are still 40 000 ebooks that don't suffer from such problems, and in my opinion they're still worth getting a reader: http://www.gutenberg.org/

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by AgentConundrum on Monday September 17, 2012 @12:43PM (#4533408)
I did mention in the previous paragraph that I was referring to an unrealisticly strict view, and that most people won't think in those sorts of concrete terms.

My point was that people are used to a certain type of "property" and, before digital media, that view wasn't inaccurate. Yes, there were licenses and you weren't allowed to make copies of tapes or CDs, but there was still the physical property of the cassette, videotape, CD, DVD, what have you that was your property that you could lend, sell, destroy as you wanted. Digital media doesn't follow this model, but a lot of people don't realize that. I do, and it's not a model that really appeals to me for those types of products, so I hang onto the "old ways" and continue to buy the physical products.

I buy physical books, I buy DVDs (I never got on the Blu-ray bandwagon for a number of reasons), and music.. well, I have an odd relationship with music such that radio tends to be good enough for me most of the time anyway. Also, music is the media product furthest into digital territory to the point that it's unavoidable in some ways.

As for Gutenburg, I suppose I should clarify that I'm not anti-Kindle. The device itself seems useful and Gutenberg fits nicely with it. I think Safari Books works with Kindle as well, and most (if not all) public libraries can lend you digital copies of books to your Kindle. My rant wasn't directed at a device, but at the sales model of digital media. I just feel there are some growing pains left to work though. I'm not much of an early adopter for anything, and it still feels like that's the phase we're in to a certain extent.

I hope that made some sense.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by adestefan on Monday September 17, 2012 @09:44AM (#4532502)
I've been leasing books for 3 decades from the library and still do the same thing with my Kindle from both the local library or the Amazon Prime lending library. I've probably "bought" only one or two of the 60 or 70 or so books I've ever read on my Kindle.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by AgentConundrum on Monday September 17, 2012 @12:22PM (#4533283)
The books, while the impetus for this particular comment, are only part of the puzzle. Music is pretty much entirely digital at this point in one form or another - how many people do you know carrying a discman? Movies are starting to trend harder that way too, as well as books.

Now, with Netflix for movies and Spotify (I think that's what it's called, it's not in Canada yet) for music, there could be a trend away from traditional ownership and towards subscription content. How that plays out will be interesting.

My point was that there's some transitional/growing pains going on, and hard questions that still need to be answered. I just don't like how things are right now, speaking only for myself.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by sliverstorm on Monday September 17, 2012 @07:30PM (#4535442)
So until music and movies are sorted out, you will not buy eBooks?
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by nullc on Monday September 17, 2012 @10:15AM (#4532643)
> There's no other site where I can talk and keep up with my grandparents, my college roommate, and my girlfriend simultaneously.

'Necrophiliac bestiality, of course! How else am I to screw my food while I eat it?'

If these people mean something to you, then you should be able to find the time to have adequate direct person to person communication with them instead of broadcasting to them and your closest 600 best buds. If they don't— then why care?

I certainly believe that you find Facebook useful, but don't overstate it. People have had friendships long before there was a friend button.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by wpietri on Monday September 17, 2012 @06:02PM (#4535143)
I'm not a big fan of Facebook, but arguments of the form "if you really cared you would X" are bunk.

Sure, if I really, really, really cared about my friends, I would practice calligraphy, hand-make my own paper, and train a flock of messenger birds to deliver them.

But there's a lot I want to get done, and a lot of people I'd like to keep in touch with, so if there is a decent way to do so that is more efficient than the 14th-century technology that I could use, then I'm going to use it.

If you have aesthetic objections to new-fangled things like the telegraph, the horseless carriage, and Facebook, by all means don't use 'em. But don't go pissing in other people's soup just because you don't approve of the dish they ordered.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by scott_s on Monday September 17, 2012 @10:50AM (#4532808)
There is more to Facebook than the friend-feed (the broadcast mechanism). Person-to-person communication is mostly what I use it for; it has replaced email and IM for many people.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by thebigshane on Monday September 17, 2012 @11:03AM (#4532865)
What does Facebook's person-to-person communication offer beyond email and IM? (Honest question)

No doubt it indeed has replaced email and IM for some people, but I would think it is just because "well, everyone else is on facebook so I'll just use that too"...

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by lotharbot on Monday September 17, 2012 @11:57AM (#4533145)
Facebook is my primary messaging system.

It's better than e-mail because I don't have to sift through spam in my private message box. I don't even have to sift through messages from companies that I technically have a business relationship with. I only get actual personal contacts.

It's better than various forms of IM software because (1) most of my relatives actually use it and (2) it's in the browser rather than a standalone client.

Of course, YMMV.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by gknoy on Monday September 17, 2012 @12:24PM (#4533299)
Agreed. I hate using Facebook, as I nearly never feel like posting anything, but it's nice to be able to say, "I wonder what ___ is doing", and then see their feed, or see some vacation photos, and not have to actually bother them and interrupt their day. With young kids, time is precious and often not at times which are convenient for socialization. :)
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by Flow on Tuesday September 18, 2012 @10:23AM (#4538129)
Don't you think that the advantage of being more "clean" compared to email is something that will change once spammers and others start abusing Facebook?
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by dredmorbius on Monday September 17, 2012 @03:12PM (#4534299)
In this role, it's essentially a directory service. The people you know are in its directory, and are tied to an integrated communications system.

Mind, I don't use FB, or trust it, for this.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by xibernetik on Monday September 17, 2012 @12:44PM (#4533415)
My family uses Facebook heavily to stay in contact since we tend to be in different countries, along with Skype and email. They moved to this long after the initial craze because Facebook offered some really compelling advantages.

For my tech-savvy parents and non-tech-savvy grandparents, it provides an easy way to share/view photos. Using email/IM means having to come up with some sort of filing system for photos, whereas Facebook just provides it, along with captions which can be useful for travel albums.

It's a broadcast system with less urgency than email. If there's some photos or a story from daily life you want to share, emails like that will get lost in an overload of tasks and requests. IMs are easy to ignore and hard to dig up. Facebook provides a way to find out that hey, something interesting happened, and when I get around to it I can browse what's up with people I care about.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by ramchip on Monday September 17, 2012 @11:40AM (#4533060)
Personally, I live in a foreign country and I find Facebook extremely useful to keep in touch with people. It's great to be able to upload pictures and have all my friends in my home country see them and discuss. Sure, I'll write to grandma every once in a while, but it's unrealistic for me to write individually to every family member and friend I have back home with pictures, explanations, etc. Even if they mean something to me there's just too many and too little time outside work...
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by thebigshane on Monday September 17, 2012 @11:02AM (#4532857)

  Necrophiliac bestiality
Umm, what? It appears to be a quote from... a movie or something but I am not at all prepared to google it.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by hfsktr on Monday September 17, 2012 @12:20PM (#4533271)
I googled directly what he said and necrophilia(c) bestiality (google corrected the necro part). I didn't really find anything relevant on the first page. There was one site with jokes but I didn't read into it since only a word from each sentence got picked up. Hope he comes back because I want to know what he is talking about too.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by waterlesscloud on Monday September 17, 2012 @02:18PM (#4533976)
Basically he's saying "ur doing it wrong". You're doing something weird because you're combining things it doesn't make sense to combine.

Not my personal opinion, just a translation of what I think he's saying.

As an aside, there's the famous line from Woody Allen's What's Up Tiger Lilly? : "I'd call him a sadistic, hippophilic necrophile, but that would be beating a dead horse."

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by nullc on Wednesday September 26, 2012 @03:01PM (#4577380)
Right— it was a gonzo commentary on the kind of justify-anything fallacious reasoning that comes imposing a mix of arbitrary constraints.

"My helo-elephant is the _only_ peanut powered mode of transportation with automatic mouse avoidance!" True, perhaps, but when someone asks why you need a helo-elephant it's often not informative to just say what it does with more words... they're often looking for you to justify why you need to do those things (or do those things at once).

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by eli_gottlieb on Monday September 17, 2012 @02:02PM (#4533885)
If these people mean something to you, then you should be able to find the time to have adequate direct person to person communication with them instead of broadcasting to them and your closest 600 best buds. If they don't— then why care?

How many times in your life have you moved house to somewhere far away? What you wrote here makes it sound like it probably wasn't very much.

My whole family uses Facebook for keeping up with people we don't live near anymore. I use it for keeping up with college friends whom I don't live near anymore (moving across the state will do that, let alone moving halfway across the world).

You might ask, why am I keeping up with college friends? The answer is: because I'm 23, so they're still a large fraction of all the friends I have.

As I recall, there was a rather frightening New York Times article once posted to HN on how even decades after college, most people still haven't made that many new friends to replace their friends from adolescence.

Scary stuff, hence: Facebook.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by nullc on Wednesday September 26, 2012 @02:53PM (#4577320)
My moves since I was a teenager were, by distance— 150mi, 10mi, 2mi, 3mi, 2mi, 400mi, 800mi, 2400mi. My nearest family member (other than my partner) lives 2500 miles away. Perhaps when you're a bit older you'll know that such condescension usually just makes you look silly? :P

Facebook is not endowed with some unique magical distance busting power. Telephone, Email, IM, public websites, and postal mail all work over long distances just as well.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by eli_gottlieb on Thursday September 27, 2012 @08:23PM (#4583678)
Facebook is not endowed with some unique magical distance busting power. Telephone, Email, IM, public websites, and postal mail all work over long distances just as well.

No, what Facebook does have is broadcasting capabilities. Rather than going through 13 tedious phone calls, I can post one status update. Unlike email, I don't have to specifically include or exclude various relations from the list of people I'm writing to. It contains its own IM service (though my fiancee and I use Skype together). It's far faster than postal mail (like everything else electronic). It costs far less than a personal website with forum software running.

It's a local optimum. Not supremely perfect, not magical, but good at what it does.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by epo on Monday September 17, 2012 @09:54AM (#4532539)
"There's no other site where I can talk and keep up with my grandparents, my college roommate, and my girlfriend simultaneously." Why would anyone want to do this? It is feasible to display 20 or more TV channels simultaneously, but you wouldn't be "watching" any of them, you'd looking at them at best. I'll be charitable and assume you meant something like "using the same mechanism" but even that is barely less deranged as an advantage except for those so slow on the uptake that they can only memorise one way of doing things.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by icebraining on Monday September 17, 2012 @09:13AM (#4532362)
Maybe we don't feel the need to talk to three or more people simultaneously? I'd rather give proper attention to each, even if it takes a little more time.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by gav on Monday September 17, 2012 @11:53AM (#4533120)
I wonder how much Kindle ownership and home size correlates. I was a strong proponent of owning physical books until about 2 1/2 years ago when I moved into a small Manhattan apartment.

Since then I've bought about 200 e-books and about 5 physical books. I simply don't have the space. I have boxes and boxes of books in storage and I'm now glad that I'm not adding to that.

Playing with some rough numbers into I get about 9 ft^3 for 200 paperback books, it's even worse with hardbacks.

Given the amount of people I see reading on a Kindle in the subway, I wonder how many took the leap just due to size constraints.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by shanselman on Monday September 17, 2012 @12:59PM (#4533525)
I would say it correlates more to household income and education. Folks need to "get" digital books and feel confident that they will still own them. I've gotten tired of looking at physical books that full up a half a room so I've moved to Kindles and Comixology and haven't looked back.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by toomuchtodo on Monday September 17, 2012 @06:33PM (#4535263)
If I want to "keep" my digital books, I'll dump them from my Amazon account and send them off to Fedex Office to be printed/bound.

At the moment, I'm fine having a copy of all of them (with the DRM and identifier stripped) stored as a compressed archive in Amazon S3.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by inafield on Monday September 17, 2012 @01:21PM (#4533632)
My wife and I moved into a 600sqft condo and part of the downsizing were books from the past 10-15 years. Going forward we're going digital to save on physical space. Also, the puppy can't chew up our tablet as easy as a physical book ;-)
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by engtech on Monday September 17, 2012 @10:00AM (#4532572)
The big advantage I see to an ebook reader is when you are reading a 500+ page book.

Reading Stephen King's 11/22/63 in hardcover on the bus was kind of brutal.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by hunterjrj on Monday September 17, 2012 @10:07AM (#4532601)
Currently reading GRRM's A Dance With Dragons in hardcover. Brutal! I read the first four on my Kobo (I'm Canadian) and it was a much more enjoyable aesthetic experience.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by stagas on Monday September 17, 2012 @12:25PM (#4533301)
I recently realized I was using FB only for that reason, keeping in touch with people I know in real life, mainly the chat. I don't need to see any of the stories. Sure some of them are fun but they are a huge waste of time. Then I realized I could add FB chat to Pidgin (an IM client). My time using FB website has been reduced dramatically, I can still talk to my friends there. I'm happy I did that.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by eli_gottlieb on Monday September 17, 2012 @02:03PM (#4533896)
You're definitely not alone in this -- a lot of my friends still prefer hard copies over eBooks -- but as someone used to literally lugging three-four textbooks to class, plus periodicals, plus personal reading, there's a clear and definitive value add from the Kindle. (That being said, just because you don't have a Kindle doesn't mean you don't, say, read eBooks on your laptop.)

As someone used to moving around a lot, I carry around much of my book collection and a selection of important research papers on my Kindle. It's damned useful to lug one Kindle instead of 20 kg of physical paper.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by yequalsx on Monday September 17, 2012 @10:27AM (#4532700)
A lot of people are surprised that you don't use a dishwasher. This I find surprising.

I don't use a dishwasher either but for a different reason. I do dishes as a fitness hack. No, you don't expend a lot of energy doing dishes. But doing things by hand as much as feasible leads to a less lethargic lifestyle. Another hack is not using a microwave for anything. For instance, I make oatmeal in a pot the old fashioned way; stirring constantly so that nothing burns to the bottom of the pot. I don't use a dryer. After washing clothes (no I don't do this by hand!) I put clothes on a drying rack. I fold clothes right away after they dry.

Overall these little hacks have made me less lazy and have given me a feeling of having more energy.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by timc3 on Monday September 17, 2012 @11:02AM (#4532860)
You could have saved the time and gone outdoors instead. Washing dishes or going for a walk - I know which I choose.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by peterhajas on Monday September 17, 2012 @11:51AM (#4533112)
> I do dishes as a fitness hack.

What does this even mean? How is this a "hack"? Is vacuuming a "fitness hack"? How about sit-ups? Or walking?

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by sliverstorm on Monday September 17, 2012 @07:32PM (#4535447)
The time has come to give up on the word "hack". I let go a year or two ago.

We're at a point where in general use it is inches away from a synonym of "modify" or maybe even simply "non-default".

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by antidoh on Monday September 17, 2012 @10:59AM (#4532844)
Or, overall your non-lazy and energetic personality makes you more likely to want to do these manual things, and use that time for those things instead of other things.

Which is all good, either way.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by TeMPOraL on Monday September 17, 2012 @08:30AM (#4532204)
I would seriously reconsider Kindle. It beats any kind of screen for reading, and beats any kind of paper materials in logistics. For me, personally, it's pure value; something I can't say about most of other electronics I own.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by ganley on Monday September 17, 2012 @08:43AM (#4532248)
Definitely. Like the grandparent commenter, I don't use any technology that frustrates or annoys me, which means that I don't use a whole lot of technology. The Kindle, however, has been great and fairly frustration-free - definitely a net positive.

Related aside: The world seems to be making it more and more difficult not to have a smart phone (or, almost equivalently, to have a dumb phone). This sucks.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by thebigshane on Monday September 17, 2012 @11:08AM (#4532890)
Has the Kindle become the new Kleenex and Google? Are the alternatives so insignificant that they aren't worth mentioning? I'm not talking about the Nook, I'm talking about a $50 Alturek e-reader that you can read text files and PDFs on. I think it's fantastic (but small).
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by prof_hobart on Monday September 17, 2012 @01:11PM (#4533574)
Depends on what you're after. The Kindle is backed up by Amazon's huge catalogue of books, and has a ridiculously easy purchasing mechanism (sometimes too easy...), along with almost fault-free syncing to the iPhone/iPad apps for those 10 spare minutes when I'm waiting for a bus and wanting something to read.

Don't know about the US, but certainly in the UK there's nothing that I've come across that comes even close to the Kindle for my usage patterns - and I'm prepared to pay that little bit extra for that level of usability.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by redthrowaway on Monday September 17, 2012 @01:47PM (#4533795)
.txt and .pdf are the absolute wrong formats for e-books. .pdf formatting is usually broken for eReaders, and .txt has no formatting whatsoever. Also, you'll really only ever get those formats if you're pirating, which usually entails transcription errors.

I used to pirate all my books, but it got to the point where I realized paying $6 for the pleasure of a properly-formatted, error-free book was a better deal than pirating and ripping them.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by dev1n on Monday September 17, 2012 @10:26PM (#4535964)
Only problem with my Kindle is I forget the title of books I read. I don't see the title when I "close" the book (read: turn my kindle off).
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by prawks on Monday September 17, 2012 @11:04AM (#4532871)
"Hey I read this great book the other day!" "Oh really? That sounds really cool!" "Yeah, here you can borrow it..... Oh wait never mind..." " :( "

I don't think it really beats paper materials in logistics. You're buying proprietary books. 14-day lending to other people (who may not have a Kindle) doesn't really solve that.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by aasarava on Monday September 17, 2012 @01:01PM (#4533536)
For what it's worth, there is a Kindle reader app that lets you read books w/o an actual Kindle. But I agree that lending restrictions (and the question of who really owns the copy of the book) do make things more difficult.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by sliverstorm on Monday September 17, 2012 @06:40PM (#4535287)
It doesn't beat paper materials in all forms of logistics, but it is superior in most of the ways I usually care about.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by TeMPOraL on Monday September 17, 2012 @12:02PM (#4533176)
But then keep bringing your 1000+ pages book and a few magazines with you to the bus, to read en-route...
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by pinaceae on Monday September 17, 2012 @08:34AM (#4532216)
So you're a luddite then?

All that minimalism but still using an iPod?

What is real value? Why is value important? Is fun a part of value?

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by creativityhurts on Monday September 17, 2012 @08:53AM (#4532284)
Why 2 laptops though? So you can bitch about crappy Skype or email clients twice? :-)

Your setup is quite radical in my opinion although I know that are even more extreme ones and this is not a way for most of us. Several years ago we used to memorize contacts and birthdays or keep them in a (paper) notebook but that's not an alternative for most of us nowadays.

I keep my setup as minimal as possible and I'm still frustrated by these bugs and limitations.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by jasonkostempski on Monday September 17, 2012 @08:57AM (#4532302)
I assume you're just doing your own dishes. I went without a dishwasher for about a year with a family of 3. I wish I could get that 220+ hours of my life back.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by Smudge on Monday September 17, 2012 @09:09AM (#4532347)
I only ever wash dishes by hand when I need some time to clear my head and relax. The other 5 or 6 days of the week I'm incredibly glad I have a dishwasher. I think this appliance saves me more time than anything else (in the kitchen).
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by flexie on Monday September 17, 2012 @08:55AM (#4532294)
Smart phones add so much value. In fact, I think it would be hard for most who have lived through the iphone age to go back to the world before. Almost like going back to the times before electricity :-)
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by tonyedgecombe on Monday September 17, 2012 @09:52AM (#4532534)
I just got rid of mine and went back to a dumb phone.

I didn't like being connected all the time, it wasn't healthy for me.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by stfu on Monday September 17, 2012 @10:07AM (#4532603)
This mirrors my own experience. I had one up to about 5 years ago. And then decided that I my personality is to addictive for things like these. Having not the option to "exit" any boring situation lets me experience the world around me much more.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by pyre on Monday September 17, 2012 @10:08AM (#4532607)
Then disconnect your data plan. To me, just having the Android Calendar & Contacts interfaces is a huge improvement over most dedicated 'dumb' phones.

I guess that you still have to have the discipline not to connect wifi, but I don't think that would be too much of an issue. Disabling/enabling wifi on Android is fairly easy. This barrier, though small is probably enough to help keep you in-check.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by danielweber on Monday September 17, 2012 @10:33AM (#4532726)
I haven't verified this myself, but friends tell me you can no longer get "free" phones from AT&T unless you get a data plan. At $15/month for 2 years and 2 lines, that's 720 bucks. And phones just aren't durable enough to last for 4 years.

It's probably time to start grabbing old phones off of eBay.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by pyre on Monday September 17, 2012 @12:45PM (#4533419)
You can get an Android phone for a decent price if you don't care about top-of-the-line $500+ phones (e.g. the Samsung Galaxy Q here - http://mobilicity.ca/phones/). If all you're looking for a 'dumb' phone with some niceties... I'm sure you can find plenty to complain about with respect to things like browser performance, etc, but that's not necessarily a priority in this case.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by drivebyacct2 on Monday September 17, 2012 @07:32PM (#4535448)
Verizon won't even let you activate a smartphone without a data plan...
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by icebraining on Monday September 17, 2012 @11:36AM (#4533032)
Wouldn't it be better to get a cheaper, wifi-less Symbian Nokia? Or is the Android software that much better?
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by nsm on Tuesday September 18, 2012 @02:37AM (#4536704)
agreed! After a LOT of deliberation about what high-end smartphone to buy, I finally ended up on a Nokia 500 (Symbian Belle, Wi-fi, good sync support, super Nokia Maps) because I realised that I didn't want to always be connected, and I had no use of a super powerful phone, other than the fact that I could brag about it. I have no data plan. For most people the level of smart-ness offered by an entry level smart-phone is more than enough. Calendar/contacts/calling/messaging is pretty much the same quality across all mobile OSes. I think the whole app craze is propagated by social media junkies and corporates who want vendor lock-in or a Silicon Valley culture that values start-up invites and social wastes of time over everything else.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by john_flintstone on Monday September 17, 2012 @10:10AM (#4532615)
You don't have to be 'connected'. I've got a smart phone, and I use it mainly as a phone. The part I love about it is the great big dial pad. Remove all the apps that revolve around 'connecting' you, and you'll be grand.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by conradfr on Monday September 17, 2012 @09:13AM (#4532364)
I don't have a smartphone (yet) and the only thing I really miss is GPS/Maps (I suck at direction ...).

But I agree they are fantastic, except the prices for the high end are usually ridiculous.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by Impatient on Monday September 17, 2012 @10:25AM (#4532689)
Agreed. My last vacation showed how much they've changed our lives. Every day was completely improvised thanks to google, yelp, and maps.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by uniclaude on Monday September 17, 2012 @10:34AM (#4532735)
Before reading the replies to this post I didn't realize how important could something as basic as a dishwasher be useful to HN members. Living in Japan, I see this sort of appliance as a total waste of space, and honestly, washing my personal dishes by hand is not tough.

As some others said, I would reconsider the "No Kindle" though. This cheap device saves a lot of space for me.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by fmavituna on Monday September 17, 2012 @08:54AM (#4532290)
Funny enough in countries like Turkey there are plenty of washing machines, dish washers with literally one or two buttons that costs only 200$

Somehow I can't find this kind of machines in places like UK or Netherlands.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by tripzilch on Tuesday September 18, 2012 @08:35PM (#4541387)
Dishwashers aren't that expensive in NL: http://tweakers.net/pricewatch/cat/900/vaatwassers.html?orde... (and since tweakers.net pricewatch mainly covers computer hardware, I expect there's better deals out there, too).

I forget how much mine cost, but I don't think it was more than $300.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by SanjayUttam on Monday September 17, 2012 @09:45AM (#4532509)
I don't think the OP is being serious. Wash dishes by hand? Call me optimistic but, I kind of thought we perfected the craft of producing dishwashers.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by jws on Monday September 17, 2012 @09:52AM (#4532535)
We will have perfected it when you can again expect them to last 20 years without failure and at failure there is a diagnostic code that tells which reasonably priced part needs to be replaced.[1]

They are probably optimized now, but not for the consumer's benefit.

Also, people's thoughts on dishwashers vary hugely with the number of people in the household. When I am alone I never use a dishwasher. When in a household of four, always.

EOM

[1] As near as I can tell from family experience, the difference in reliability between the high end brands and the normal brands is that the repair parts are more expensive on the high end.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by genwin on Monday September 17, 2012 @11:18AM (#4532936)
> They are probably optimized now, but not for the consumer's benefit.

I suspect you mean they've been optimized for the shareholder's benefit.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by maxerickson on Monday September 17, 2012 @12:32PM (#4533338)
It's fun to chase consumer benefit in a circle. At least some of the drive towards more features and low upfront price comes from consumers giving more weight to those aspects of the design (rather than reliability and lifetime cost).

I would still agree that cost optimization has certainly done its part in trampling all over maintainability.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by icebraining on Monday September 17, 2012 @11:41AM (#4533064)
Not to plug or anything, but our Miele dishwasher is still working fine after 18 years, and the clothes washer only required a cheap fix a couple years ago.

That said, they're definitively more expensive. We only got them because they came with the house.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by john_flintstone on Monday September 17, 2012 @10:12AM (#4532624)
My dishwasher was broken for months - never got around to fixing it - and the reality was, it didn't take noticeably longer to clean up after a meal or after a day's meals. Might be different if you have a big family, but from what I remember growing up, the actual washing of dishes was the least time consuming part of cleaning up.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by icebraining on Monday September 17, 2012 @11:43AM (#4533077)
Yes, but they add up, and the rest is harder to automate.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by daedalus_j on Monday September 17, 2012 @10:56AM (#4532832)
Our 4 year old dishwasher was just recalled because it has, apparently, a habit of catching on fire unexpectedly.

"Perfected" is a tricky word. :-D

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by genwin on Monday September 17, 2012 @11:14AM (#4532921)
They were perfected, until the new buyers wanted to connect their smartphone to it.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by icebraining on Monday September 17, 2012 @09:15AM (#4532372)
Wash dishes by hand. (Fuck the 48 buttons on the dishwasher.)

There are one button dishwashers out there.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by genwin on Monday September 17, 2012 @11:15AM (#4532924)
Yep, the 10+ year-old ones. Might last a lifetime too.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by larrys on Monday September 17, 2012 @01:20PM (#4533631)
"got so tired of being upset with the horrendous human design"

Is that really true Ed?

Or is it possible you suffer from the same syndrome that prevented certain people from programming their VCR's? (Especially older people).

Perhaps you've noticed that even the youngest kids are really good at working the TV and the remote. Their desire to watch TV seems to increase their intelligence (and acts to prevent frustration) to the point where they are motivated to overcome any and all obstacles and can often (from my experience) do things with those remotes that older people find very difficult.

I say don't give up. In fact to me it's the opposite. Dealing with those things is actually good for your brain and keeping you young.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by bicknergseng on Monday September 17, 2012 @02:03PM (#4533898)
I can understand the frustration when things aren't intuitive (to you), but at what point does your attitude become counterproductive? The obvious points being the dishwasher, laptops, and smartphones (there are many kinds of dishwashers without 48 buttons [I've never seen one that has 48 buttons], what could possibly be the reason for buying new laptops every year, my grandma has managed to use her iPhone for pictures and contact management quite efficiently, even if there are small bugs). It seems to me you've adopted a "I don't understand this particular item, so I'm against using anything of the type." At what point do you become a luddite?
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by acqq on Monday September 17, 2012 @08:58AM (#4532309)
Why in the world do you think you need to buy new laptops every &@! year? Is it because "it becomes slow" after you installed too much? The performace of my notebooks or PCs doesn't degrade that fast.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by taude on Monday September 17, 2012 @08:07AM (#4532130)
I was complaining to someone the other day about how needlessly complex washing machines, driers, and other home appliances have gotten. I bought a luxury refrigerator (LG) about 5 or 6 years ago. The motherboard/controller unit had to get replaced 3 times in the first year. I'm still using a washing machine and dryer from the early '80s that I somehow inherited. No one's ever said to me my clothes aren't clean. When it comes time to replace them, I'm going to get the basic models without all the fancy stuff...

...but no smart phone? Blasphemous.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by count on Monday September 17, 2012 @10:49AM (#4532801)
My 'new' dishwasher isn't needlessly complex. It's very complex because it uses less than half of the water per wash my older model did, so it has to filter/cycle.

And no issues with it in 5 years. It replaced a dirt cheap, super simple 1980s style single-lever, single button model that failed after <1 full year of usage.

Not everything is broken, it's just cheaper and possible to make shitty things en masse. You can still pay for quality (see: Porsche reliability vs. Chevy reliability).

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by SoftwareMaven on Monday September 17, 2012 @10:20AM (#4532663)
I have a mid-90s washer and dryer, which is the exact same design as the 80s versions. In 15+ years, I've had a few problems with them, but every time it was a relatively straightforward for me to figure out and to fix because they are so simple. If you have a voltmeter and an ammeter, you are set.

The inability for me to fix them is what keeps me from upgrading. As the OP noticed, everything is broken, so I expect I will have to get anything repaired. I'd prefer to save some money and do it myself.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by philjohn on Monday September 17, 2012 @08:57AM (#4532303)
On the other hand, I've got an 8 year old fridge freezer that's still going strong, and a 5 year old dishwasher that's still going strong. Sounds like you got a dodgy model that had problems, but don't tar every modern appliance with the same brush.

I also haven't seen a dishwasher with 40 buttons, as claimed in the parent post, and my modern Bosch washing machine doesn't look any more complex than the Miele one my mother had 25 years ago.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by fmax30 on Monday September 17, 2012 @09:20AM (#4532387)
I have got an LG washing machine that is 10 years old and works. A 20 year old sony tv that works. And a General fridge and a microwave bought in 1985 that still works. So basically the new pieces of technology keep breaking and we have to use these backups. At least the get the stuff done. Alas! , we cannot say the same for old software .... ( actually the older it is, the crappier it is).
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by pbhjpbhj on Monday September 17, 2012 @09:10AM (#4532353)
>needlessly complex washing machines, driers, and other home appliances //

Presumably the companies don't want to compete on longevity as shareholders want short term returns and so aren't interested, generally, in long term stability and good stewardship of resources.

That just leaves quality and features to compete on. Quality costs money and features are relatively cheap.

So the companies stuff in features and pretend it's a quality product all the while hoping it breaks down the second it's outside warranty ...?

Too cynical?

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by rimantas on Monday September 17, 2012 @10:07AM (#4532602)
I don't think you will ever experience non-horrendous human design with attitude like this.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by runjake on Monday September 17, 2012 @11:21AM (#4532948)
Yes, I'll single out the dishwasher item. Mine has a couple dozen buttons. I only care about two: Start and 4-Hour-Delayed Start. I couldn't even begin to tell you what the other buttons do.

Sometimes it's also about focus, too.

Same with my digital camera, Microsoft Word, Excel, et cetera.

Don't master. Learn what you need to get the job done.

Twist ending: I do the dishes a lot, and I end up washing them by hand anyway. Why? Because it's tedious labor that gets my mind away from coding and technology. I consider it meditation. My wife hates that I don't use the dishwasher.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by danielweber on Monday September 17, 2012 @10:35AM (#4532739)
Who sells laptops these days that aren't loaded up with a bunch of bloatware?

I'd like to look at the System Process List right after boot and have there be no more than 20 entries, knowing exactly what each thing does.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by yoshamano on Tuesday September 18, 2012 @04:18AM (#4536975)
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by icebraining on Monday September 17, 2012 @11:43AM (#4533070)
Sellers of preloaded Linux laptops. LinuxCertified, System76, etc.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by WildUtah on Monday September 17, 2012 @04:05PM (#4534581)
And to mention the obvious:

Apple.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by windsurfer on Monday September 17, 2012 @09:22AM (#4532395)
May I ask what laptops you recently purchased?
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by zem on Tuesday September 18, 2012 @07:41PM (#4541189)
what leaps out at me from that list is that you have systematically ruled out every good way to read ebooks. as a heavy fiction reader, my smartphone and later my kindle have added value to my life that far outweighs any design flaws they might have had.