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Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by alexholehouse on Monday September 17, 2012 @09:24AM (#4532413)
Clearly some of these are life choices, and important ones which almost certainly make sense to you, but one thing;

No dishwasher?

I don't really understand this. My dishwasher has a single wheel and a switch. The switch is "heated dry" [ON|OFF] and the wheel sets to one of three positions ("light wash", "normal wash", "medium wash"). If you're only washing dishes for one then I guess this makes sense, but I fail to grasp how an example of a bad dishwasher user interface is a barrier to all dishwashers (at least in terms of UI - clearly you may have environment reasons).

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by neutronicus on Monday September 17, 2012 @12:12PM (#4533236)
Personally, I just don't like dishwashers. They don't seem to save any work - I still basically have to clean the dishes in order to precondition them for the dishwasher, and now they create this monumental chore (put everyone's dishes away) that all the dishwasher users are constantly trying to avoid and foist off on the other dishwasher users. No, thank you.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by JoeAltmaier on Monday September 17, 2012 @12:41PM (#4533394)
Been there; done that. And once I bought a dishwasher, I lost all motivation to do it by hand.

Scraping off stuck stuff, the whole process of cleaning the sink, plugging it and filling it with water, sorting dishes by category (do the glasses first! Pots last!), running out of room to put the dry dishes so dry hands and put some away, then back to washing.

Its not unpleasant, but just lots of work and the dishwasher does a decent job with 60 seconds of effort (put dry clean dishes away; rack dirty dishes, push a button). I do it before leaving for work.

Of course, now with the energy-star hoax I'm starting to regret buying a new dishwasher, but that's another discussion.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by aasarava on Monday September 17, 2012 @12:59PM (#4533524)
What do you mean by "the energy-star hoax"? (Curious.)
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by JoeAltmaier on Monday September 17, 2012 @01:03PM (#4533546)
To qualify for 'Energy Star' in the US, you have to use 10% less energy/resources (water) as last year. No standard; no other goal.

Result: clothes washers that don't wash (my washer at least has a button to override Energy Star, obliquely named Extra Rinse or Heavy Duty), dishwashers that don't get dishes clean; water heaters that deliver luke-warm water.

The goal cannot have been "Use less energy, even if it means sucking". The goal was actually "Get a sticker on your product, for marketing reasons." Thus, a hoax.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by luser001 on Monday September 17, 2012 @01:28PM (#4533683)
What clothes washer are you talking about? Do you have a top-load washer? Those are notorious water wasters that probably can't wash well without huge amounts of water.

As a counter point, I have a front-load 2011 Samsung washer and dryer. I even got some money from the Big Evil Government water district for the washer and IIRC from the Big Evil Power Company for the dryer.

I am 200% satisfied with the wash and drying quality. It will take quite a bit to convince me that energy efficiency requirements are causing problems.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by thetrb on Monday September 17, 2012 @05:25PM (#4534970)
Maybe you're lucky then. I have a similar issue as OP: I have a new dryer from LG that was rated very high by consumer reports but even at the "optimum dry" setting the clothes still stay wet and I often have to start a second drying cycle once the first one completes.

I highly doubt that running through 2 cycles saves energy compared to doing it right the first time.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by luser001 on Monday September 17, 2012 @06:56PM (#4535337)
Sorry to hear about your experience.

Kinda like a dumb tech support q.: you're cleaning out the lint filter before each use, right? :)

Second: are you sure it's your dryer? Maybe the washer isn't spinning them as dry as they need to be. Try using a washer cycle that spins harder/longer. Did you replace only the dryer w/o replacing the washer.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by JoeAltmaier on Monday September 17, 2012 @11:22PM (#4536134)
Everybody askes that. Yes, I know how to operator a dryer too. And mine leaves the clothes wet too. After a diligent effort to make the damn things work, they still suck.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by roedog on Tuesday September 18, 2012 @08:35PM (#4541389)
I had this problem. Then we cleaned out ducts from the dryer to the exhaust vent on the outside of the house.

The duct was jammed full of lint. So, no air was flowing out. The dryer had a safety interlock that disabled the heater. This is why the clothes took so long to dry. It is also why we didn't start a fire and burn down the house.

Now we clean the ducts every 18 months and the dryer works great.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by JoeAltmaier on Monday September 17, 2012 @02:12PM (#4533942)
Ok, I won't spend effort trying to convince you. Good luck with that washer; not sure if it was Energy Star since you didn't mention it (1 of 3 2011 Samsung frontloaders was EnergyStar).

The guy at the applicance store was completely sympathetic; he hears it all the time. The washers are a widespread disappointment.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by luser001 on Monday September 17, 2012 @03:23PM (#4534353)
Yes, Energy Star rated. I literally got money from the water and power company for buying it.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by eli on Monday September 17, 2012 @02:46PM (#4534152)
You larger point may hold, but I'm pretty sure Energy Star has fixed standards. It's not simply that your product most do better than its 2011 version.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by JoeAltmaier on Monday September 17, 2012 @03:20PM (#4534332)
The rating (energystar.gov) changes as the federal specification changes, and I cannot quickly find the history of that spec. They do state that its recalculated when a 50% market share of EnergyStar rated products exists.

So it is likely to change over time.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by hga on Friday September 21, 2012 @09:24AM (#4553612)
The goal was actually "Get a sticker on your product, for marketing reasons."

It's worse than that, companies save on Federal taxes by making these progressively worse appliances. Whirlpool is infamous for not just paying no taxes but getting "tax benefits" (credits they can carry forward) for 2008-10.

And my GE washer rations hot water quite fiercely. If there was enough commonality in the various model's firmware I'd sure like to join a group that reprograms them in a sane way.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by ollysb on Monday September 17, 2012 @08:12PM (#4535573)
It seems to be a feature of kitchens in Spain that the cupboards for crockery double as drying racks. The shelves are racks and the cupboards have no bottom so that the water simply falls onto the counter. My cupboard is right next to the sink as well so that whole washing process is very efficient.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by jarek on Tuesday September 18, 2012 @12:26AM (#4536323)
This is apparently a thing in Scandinavia as well. I'm a little jealous. (I do my dishes by hand and use the dishwasher as a passive drying rack. Well, at least I'm using tools for one relatively simple purpose only.)
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by emddudley on Monday September 17, 2012 @12:34PM (#4533347)
My dishwasher does not require any rinsing. It has a built-in grinder for larger food particles that get washed off.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by efa on Monday September 17, 2012 @12:56PM (#4533496)
My dishwasher also cleans beautifully with no rinsing (thought I usually rinse the big particles). Now drying is another thing all together. I usually have to hand dry dishes (especially plastic) when I take them out before putting them away.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by simon on Monday September 17, 2012 @03:23PM (#4534352)
We get around that by opening the dishwasher a few inches as soon as it's finished its cycle. That way the steam escapes, and the heat in the unit finishes drying the dishes. Most of the water you see on the contents is steam that has re-condensed onto everything.

Hope this helps. IIRC I saw an article on Popular Mechanics about this a few years ago and tried it and it works.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by tripzilch on Tuesday September 18, 2012 @07:26PM (#4541133)
I do this too. I kinda always thought it's just part of how you operate a dishwasher :) First time I opened it right after its cycle, a huge cloud escapes, so it figures that otherwise it would condense, no?

Another tip then, I don't just open it a few inches but all the way and pull out both racks. That way all the steam escapes within a few seconds and you can close up the dishwasher again. You do need a bit of ventilation but I just open my balcony door. And then, there's a few cups or glasses that have concave bottoms so they gather a bit of water. If you blow hard on them while everything is still hot, the drops will fly somewhere (it's just water), and those glasses will become fully dry thanks to the last bits of heat.

Another tip. If you wrap it up real good so no soap can get to it, you can easily cook a piece of salmon in your dishwasher. It's not a great way (cooks too hot, for too long), but it does work and that's awesome.

Another tip. If you got a compartment for a "shining agent", you can put a mix of white vinegar and ethanol in it. It works. Both of the substances easily evaporate in the heat so you won't get a vinegar smell or anything (unless you use balsamic--good luck with that). An expensive commercial shining agent might work even better, I never tried them.

Yet another tip. Maybe you have a built-in water-softener whose ion-exchanger needs recharging by pouring dishwasher salt into another compartment. The only difference between table salt and this stuff is that the granules are big so it dissolves slower. So, buy big granules table salt instead (the stuff used in table salt grinders), which is much cheaper.

Another other tip. You'll probably still do some cleaning by hand, when you need a specific utensil or something. If you use a plastic dishwasher brush, you can put that one in the dishwasher as well to clean it. I'm unsure why, but I find brushes to last a lot longer when I occasionally clean them in the dishwasher.

If you can trust your dishwasher to not leave weird residue on your stuff, you can also use this method to clean plastic hair-combs every once in a while.

A dishwasher really is a magical device. You can even put some lines of source code in the cutlery rack, and they'll come out with less bugs. True fact.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by efa on Monday September 17, 2012 @03:34PM (#4534407)
Thanks, I'll give that a try!
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by thechut on Monday September 17, 2012 @03:51PM (#4534507)
How about giving the brand and model a plug then?
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by foobarqux on Tuesday September 18, 2012 @10:49AM (#4538344)
Doesn't have a built-in grinder (whatever that is) but Fisher-Paykel dishwashers actually work. Before using a Fisher-Paykel I had same belief as OP: That dishwasher's just didn't work. Every dish washer I had used before was a piece of shit; ineffective and flimsy.

F&P is built sturdy (e.g. feel difference in the rack). Unit is built as two drawers that are operated separately, so you can start the washer with smaller loads. No multi-level racks. Has 3-4 duration-of-wash settings (up to 2+ hours), but for normal dishes I never had to use anything but fast (20 min).

They are pricey but in my opinion you should get a similar quality dishwasher or not get a dishwasher at all.

http://www.fisherpaykel.com/product/dishwashing/ Warning: website is terribly designed

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by JoeAltmaier on Monday September 17, 2012 @11:34AM (#4533024)
My latest dishwasher is 'energy star'. What that means is, every year they have to use 10% less energy and water. After the last 10 years, the dishwasher uses almost no enery nor water. And it doesn't get the dishes clean. And there's no way to override it.

My water comes from a well. Its plentiful and free. Its pointless to save a gallon, and make me hand-wash half the dishes. </rant>

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by Bud on Wednesday September 19, 2012 @12:36AM (#4542098)
You don't appear to be right about your facts on Energy Star, good sir:

http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?fuseaction=find_a_produc...

It seems to me, you just bought a crappy appliance. Go buy a better one. That will solve your problem; inaccurate ranting about energy efficiency efforts will not.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by gnaffle on Tuesday September 18, 2012 @07:24AM (#4537403)
I couldn't find anything to back up the claim that the appliances have to use 10% less energy and water each year. Do you have any documentation to back that up? You'd think this would show up in product reviews after a while?

Doesn't you dishwasher have any adjustment to set the temperature or length of the cycle? What model do you have?

My appliances are all "A" rated (EU energy label), but to get that rating for the dishwasher I have to use the "eco program", and I'd think there was something similar in the US?

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by JoeAltmaier on Tuesday September 18, 2012 @09:09AM (#4537753)
YEah, that is not a supportable claim. Probably the appliance dealer was speaking colloquially. In any case the federal standard changes pretty regularly, resulting in an erratic dropping of electric consumption requirements.

There are plenty of buttons on the washer (which is a user-interface nightmare of its own). Two help a little: 'Heavy Duty' and 'Extra Rinse'. Selecting both leaves the clothes smelling slightly less of sweat and dirt. And of course when the cycle completes, it turns off to save (miniscule) power. Turning it on results in the default settings again!

Googling it, I see no hack to defeat the settings. Just a lot of talk about strange error codes and how to reset them. Sigh.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by gnaffle on Tuesday September 18, 2012 @09:58AM (#4537980)
OK, I'm curious what kind of model you have. Is it a top or front loaded?

Mine (front loaded) has a pre-wash (2 hour program) or "soaking" mode for extra dirty clothes (4h), and I can select temperatures from 0-90 degrees celsius, but most clothes get clean at 40 degrees.

I had to do an obscure button trick described in the user manual to have it remember the previous settings after a completed cycle, though.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by JoeAltmaier on Tuesday September 18, 2012 @10:05AM (#4538029)
Not in the laundry room right now, but its from Sears, top-loaded (cramped laundry room doesn't permit front-loading), all electronic, has no agitator(!) and is a piece of junk.

Maybe I can find a trick in the manual; thanks for that idea.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by gnaffle on Tuesday September 18, 2012 @10:47AM (#4538313)
OK. I think the lack of an agitator might be the reason for the poor performance, rather than energy or water conservation (unless your washing machine is a top-loaded rotating drum type, since they work the same way as front loaders).
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by tripzilch on Tuesday September 18, 2012 @07:39PM (#4541178)
Are we hackers? There must be a way to do a firmware upgrade. Jailbreak your washer! ;-)
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by mej10 on Monday September 17, 2012 @09:42AM (#4532497)
Yeah, mine literally just has a dial that is only used to turn it on and off. No buttons, switches, anything. You just turn the dial like 0.2cm and it turns on. I can't imagine being OK with wasting time washing dishes by hand.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by irishcoffee on Monday September 17, 2012 @11:15AM (#4532925)
It's therapeutic, for me anyway.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by jamesbritt on Monday September 17, 2012 @04:40PM (#4534765)
Kind of like that for me. It takes ~10 minutes to prepare French press coffee, and since I can't really get too involved in anything away from the kitchen during this I find that I might as well wash whatever dishes are in the sink.

My sink is right by the kitchen window and I can look out past our rose bushes and watch assorted wildlife gambol and frolic. (Mostly bunnies and birds.) Kind of idyllic I suppose if you ignore the all-same-look suburban houses.

If there are a lot of dishes I'll wash certain things and load others into the dishwasher for later. But I sort of like washing dishes in my house.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by mej10 on Monday September 17, 2012 @11:33AM (#4533015)
It is funny that you describe it as therapeutic. I have several manual tasks that I would describe that way. Just not washing dishes. :)
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by SkyMarshal on Monday September 17, 2012 @12:40PM (#4533387)
After coding all day, almost any manual labor will do. Washing dishes, mowing the lawn, helping a friend move, etc.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by joverholt on Monday September 17, 2012 @11:35AM (#4533030)
I agree, wife and I wash most of our dishes, she washes, I dry. It's a great time to let your mind wonder and think about problems. Mindless tasks like drying dishes and scooping the cat box give me a chance to actually think about things in a no pressure environment.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by barking on Monday September 17, 2012 @11:58AM (#4533151)
Just wait, kids change everything!
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by SageRaven on Monday September 17, 2012 @12:24PM (#4533294)
Yup. They can then have the kids wash the dishes. ;-)
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by SLuijk on Monday September 17, 2012 @04:13PM (#4534622)
It takes a few years to get to that stage :(
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by Angostura on Tuesday September 18, 2012 @06:09AM (#4537245)
Yup, having the first baby was when we got a dishwasher.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by drivingmenuts on Monday September 17, 2012 @11:10AM (#4532898)
No dishwasher here, either.

It takes 10 minutes, start to finish, to wash and put the dishes in the rack, if I've neglected to do them for a day or two. 15 total if I towel dry them.

Yeah, the dishwasher would be more convenient, maybe, but doing it by hand is just plain faster and I don't have to multitask.

Probably cheaper, too.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by run4yourlives on Monday September 17, 2012 @01:20PM (#4533627)
Call us when you have a family, Mr. ten-minutes. :)
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by tesseractive on Tuesday September 18, 2012 @05:33AM (#4537148)
Indeed. Our dishwasher is DOA at the moment, and for a family of 4, keeping the dishes washed is an investment of several hours a week, spread out in some fashion or other.

On the plus side, I agree that it's kind of therapeutic to do them. :)

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by julien_c on Monday September 17, 2012 @11:32AM (#4533009)
Using a dishwasher actually saves water.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by thebigshane on Monday September 17, 2012 @01:45PM (#4533776)
I have a feeling this is the case as well. Can you cite any references?
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by Too on Monday September 17, 2012 @02:04PM (#4533900)
Last spec i saw of a dishwasher was 10 liters / wash. But i think that's pretty low because they were bragging with it.

Estimate how much you need by hand. Filling up the sink, 5-10L? And then rinsing it all afterwards, another 5 at least. Keep in mind that a dishwasher does about 4 meals while you usually do one at a time when you do by hand.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by icebraining on Monday September 17, 2012 @11:22AM (#4532952)
10 minutes? For how many people?
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by flatline on Monday September 17, 2012 @09:37AM (#4532466)
We have a new kitchenaid dishwasher with a fairly simple control panel (8 buttons). We already had to have the mainboard replaced by the manufacturer. Unless your dishwasher is really old, even if it appears simple, it almost certainly is not.
Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by engtech on Monday September 17, 2012 @09:59AM (#4532565)
My old Kitchenaid dishwasher had to have the mainboard replaced 4 times.

One fix I found online was that if you have a hotter than normal water supply, the exhaust vent isn't big enough to let all of the steam out so the board gets wet.

The service guy crimped the vent wider after I told him about that one.

Re:Everything's broken and nobody's upset by tripzilch on Tuesday September 18, 2012 @07:33PM (#4541162)
I really don't get what all my buttons are for. Well I know what they do, after reading the manual, just not why I'd want to use them, different varieties of partial dishwashing? I'm a single person household and I have no problem waiting 2-3 days until I have enough for the full program. So I only ever press the same two ("full program", "ON"). And it really should be just one: ON.