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Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by gmd63 on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @07:40PM (#42719422)
I've ironically lost more money the more closely I've paid attention to my investments because I was naively confident in the market's ability (or as I've come to suspect, willingness) to react to evidence of fraud.

The amount of deceit put out into the world and gobbled up, on purpose, in business is obscene and seriously depressing. The magnitude of damage to psyches and thus economies that anyone acting in a fraudulent manner in finance creates is far-reaching and immeasurable. Punishment for financial crimes should be calculated based on the average lifetime earnings of a citizen -- if your victims are folks earning at or below the average wage, and you've scammed 100 lifetimes worth of average earnings, it's as if you've murdered 100 people.

Hindenburg's reports were a true pleasure to read, and their track record proves their positive contribution to society. Many self-important people online are quick to pounce on short sellers as being evil, and that will forever be a serious red flag to me thanks in no small part to Nate Anderson and the folks at Hindenburg Research.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by jfengel on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @08:08PM (#42719678)
The market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent. The market will tolerate infinite BS for arbitrary periods of time.

Which also means being careful of short selling. It can put you at unlimited risk even if you are absolutely right.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by unyttigfjelltol on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @09:08PM (#42720134)
> It can put you at unlimited risk even if you are absolutely right.

The risk is in borrowing, not short selling. How many momo jockies out there think about the "unlimited risk" from buying Tesla on margin? In that case, you're shorting USD, but no one talks about that because it always will be fashionable to short USD.

Just like it always will be fashionable to short JPY, for carry and more. Until it's not.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by jpk on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @10:21PM (#42720699)
Short selling a stock means borrowing shares and selling them.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by encoderer on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @09:20PM (#42720238)
You can short USD by buying Bitcoin or a similar non-correlated asset but how could buying a usd correlated asset (TSLA) be shorting?
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by UniverseHacker on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @09:35PM (#42720351)
Stocks are generally not considered tied to currency- if the company has some fundamental value, that should be inflation proof.

So technically buying almost any stock can be a way of shorting the USD in that you are selling it now and will buy it back later.

The risk - besides that of the company itself- I suppose is that if you have massive deflation you will end up with less USD. I don’t think anyone is worried about massive deflation of the USD, since the Fed can and would prevent that.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by baq on Thursday January 16, 2025 @02:28AM (#42722398)
Stocks have been a great inflation hedge in the long term since they’re usually backed by hard assets and people, not numbers in computers. Short term obviously some businesses are hurt by inflation and some benefit.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by matwood on Thursday January 16, 2025 @04:02AM (#42723069)
You can also short the USD by buying a different currency. BTC would be more like shorting all currencies.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by kjksf on Thursday January 16, 2025 @05:25AM (#42723602)
Buying BTC is shorting money printing by your government.

Today the only government (that I know of) committed to not printing money is Argentina but they have other issues affecting their economy and therefore inflating their currency.

Given that governments don't seem to have desire stop money printing any time soon, buying BTC is sound.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by this_user on Thursday January 16, 2025 @07:20AM (#42724298)
The 2010s called, they want their talking points back. The Fed has been doing quantitative tightening for the last couple of years while raising rates. Only towards the end of last year did they start lowering the rates again, but they are still doing QT. So, there is no, what you call, "money printing", which in itself is a complete misnomer as it ignores the complexities and actual transmission mechanisms of "quantitative easing". In either case, Bitcoin has proven that it offers no hedge against anything; it is merely a risk asset with no intrinsic value that tends to rally with all the other rubbish like meme stocks.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by eru on Saturday January 18, 2025 @05:48PM (#42752047)
> Today the only government (that I know of) committed to not printing money is Argentina [...]

You don't know many countries, do you?

Argentina still prints more money, and has higher inflation, than most places around the world.

Singapore and Switzerland are some examples of nicely conservative monetary policy.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by CrazyStat on Thursday January 16, 2025 @05:36AM (#42723667)
Short selling has unbounded downside. If you borrow $1,000 to short sell TSLA and then it soars you might end up losing $100,000.

If you borrow $1,000 to buy TSLA your downside is limited—you can’t possibly lose more than $1,000.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by unyttigfjelltol on Thursday January 16, 2025 @02:17PM (#42729616)
In either case, your broker will liquidate you around $0. Not guaranteed, but very likely. This is the key risk.

Tether provides a good illustration of the principle I mentioned-- which I concede is a bit theoretical in the case of USD:

Tether is supposed to trade at $1 and gets press when it trades below. But, sometimes it also trades above, at $1.01, $1.02 and even perhaps $1.03. So, if you sold a lot of it thinking trading higher was impossible, you can be surprised.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by UniverseHacker on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @09:31PM (#42720322)
> Which also means being careful of short selling.

There are a number of businesses I know are badly run and will eventually fail, but I cannot find a way to monetize that safely without knowing the timeline for failure.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by whatshisface on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @10:17PM (#42720651)
If you are the only person who thinks that it might fail, one cent put options will be free and you can buy them until the price hits zero, and then you can make a cent.

For example, the opportunity to sell $TSLA for $180 in one month costs about thirty cents right now. Keeping this up for ten years would cost $36.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by pclmulqdq on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @11:20PM (#42721148)
Put options are worthless once the price of a stock hits $0. At that point, the stock will be frozen and/or de-listed and your ability to exercise your put will be gone.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by baq on Thursday January 16, 2025 @02:26AM (#42722383)
There are otc buyers for these, but they probably won’t look at $36
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by kjksf on Thursday January 16, 2025 @05:06AM (#42723461)
Per grok it's not true and per me it's not a problem in practice.

A put option is a contract between buyer (me) and a seller of the option. The contract guarantees me a right to sell stock at a strike price to the seller of the option.

If current stock price is lower than put contract strike price, I can exercise the contract and make money: I buy the stock from market at e.g. $78 (current price) and sell at e.g. $128 (strike price).

If stock is delisted the contract is still valid and enforced by the clearing house. They'll just assume that current price is $0 and force the option seller to just fork me cash without receiving the (unavailable) shares.

But it doesn't happen in practice because stocks are not just delisted without warning.

For example, Bed Bath & Beyond announced bankruptcy in April 23, Nasdaq announced delisting in April 25 and trading stopped in May 3.

So there was a week for option holders to settle their trades.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by pclmulqdq on Thursday January 16, 2025 @08:00AM (#42724568)
Grok is not a reliable source. What will happen is that if you are lucky, some institution with worthless shares will buy them from you at a very big discount OTC. If you are not lucky and your broker sleeps on you (since that deal comes from your broker calling someone on the phone, it's not automated), you will lose the options.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by patwolf on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @10:42PM (#42720870)
That'd work well for a catastrophic Eron-style collapse, but many companies die a slow death, like Sears.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by tim333 on Thursday January 16, 2025 @09:47AM (#42725888)
With Sears like companies you can take a very small short position and then reinvest the money from the sale going long S&P500 type stuff. That's roughly what Chanos did. It has to be small position as a percent of your portfolio in case it decides to go up 10x when you are not looking. I think Chanos's results over a decade were something like 0% on the shorts, 50% on the longs the money was reinvested into.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by ganeshkrishnan on Thursday January 16, 2025 @12:58AM (#42721828)
It doesn't work like this. The stock might fall around $10-$20 every month in the worst case scenario. In which case the premium of $180 will keep rising every week, 90% of which will expire worthless.

You have to buy really farther out or really far off strike both of which have nearly zero probability ( delta is nearly zero and less than 1)

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by lvl155 on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @08:29PM (#42719845)
This is a common thing among investment professionals especially in areas where you need strong domain knowledge such as biotech. Your conviction can become stronger the more you learn and collect supporting data. Conviction is a dangerous thing. This also extends to what’s broadly happening today in increasingly data-rich environment because we make data-dependent decisions.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by mschuster91 on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @08:33PM (#42719876)
> Many self-important people online are quick to pounce on short sellers as being evil, and that will forever be a serious red flag to me thanks in no small part to Nate Anderson and the folks at Hindenburg Research.

Credible arguments can be made however that short-selling itself, especially naked short selling, is an unethical thing to do as the pure possibility of short-selling makes some forms of crime possible in the first place, such as a criminal shooting up the road bus of a German soccer team to profit from falling stock prices [1]. Especially in the era of anything being credibly fake-able with widely available AI tools, short-selling can look to criminals as a very profitable way to make money.

Also, short-selling incentivizes large stock holders to be lazy and not do their jobs. Imagine a huge ass pension fund - they can (and do) make money as the counterparty in short-selling deals. Some see this as a necessary part of stocktrading life (because it provides liquidity), but personally I think that it removes incentives for the pension fund managers to do their job and audit the stock they hold for their shareholders in turn themselves.

Besides: enforcing securities code and auditing companies should not be the job of vigilantes. I applaud the efforts of ethical short sellers, but in an ideal world, that job would be done by the authorities.

[1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anschlag_auf_den_Mannschaftsbu...

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by gizmo on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @08:47PM (#42719972)
1. Naked short selling basically doesn't happen anymore. To the extent that it does happen it's a mere technicality and the borrow is found after a couple of days.

2. There is very little money in shorting. Pumping and dumping by making up positive news is much more lucrative. "to the moon" has been a trope for years, and there is no equivalent on the short side. Even the world's most successful short seller Jim Chanos was successful because the short portfolio functioned as a hedge that enabled a leveraged long position on broad indices. It's pretty hard make money net short when the market goes up for two straight decades.

3. The authorities don't have the resources nor the dogged inclination to hunt down fraudsters. The authorities can't and shouldn't base an exhaustive investigation on vaguely shifty CEO behavior. Short sellers can and do start their investigation based on gut feeling.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by weard_beard on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @10:22PM (#42720709)
1. FTDs are at an all time high. Naked short selling is an epidemic. This is provably false.

2. Operational shorting as a part of market making and derivatives strategies is an enormous part of the market. This is also demonstrably false.

3. The DOJ has the resources, not the jurisdiction. Self regulation will always be underfunded. Trying to argue that short selling is an effective form of privatized self regulation is laughable.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by gmd63 on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @10:40PM (#42720853)
An increase in failures to deliver does not imply an increase in naked shorting.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by weard_beard on Thursday January 16, 2025 @08:19AM (#42724726)
They are highly correlated. Most other causes are static processes which would not increase or decrease.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by pclmulqdq on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @11:23PM (#42721172)
The few firms (market makers) that are allowed to short naked pretty much always deliver.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by weard_beard on Thursday January 16, 2025 @08:21AM (#42724749)
By “cheque kiting”. Trading back and forth perpetually with colluding firms to perpetually “deliver”, eventually landing these phantom shares in offshore swap agreements where reporting has conveniently been perpetually delayed.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by PoppinFreshDo on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @09:33PM (#42720333)
As for 3. Looking at the HR targets they don't look like hunch targets to me.

They seem to be going after egregious high flyers with a pattern of grift who are vulnerable to a short.

Of course I could be wrong

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by lucianbr on Thursday January 16, 2025 @04:19AM (#42723187)
> The authorities can't and shouldn't base an exhaustive investigation on vaguely shifty CEO behavior.

Moral hazard. We are in this thread, where many people complain about the irrationality of the market, of bad choices having no ill effects, and at the same time it is argued that authorities should prioritize and only investigate and prosecute large cases where the ROI is good.

I think the ethical landscape created by this "selective investigation and prosecution based on ROI" is part of the problem. We officially abandon the concept that wrong-doing will get caught and punished as a rule and then we marvel that the markets are irrational and that bad actors profit and keep profiting over large time horizons. Who could have expected such?

I think over a longer time period these effects will compound and there will be larger and larger problems. You can't just abandon the rules because enforcing them is not cost-efficient and hope everything will be alright. But it does take time to see the effects so who knows when the larger problems will show up.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by gizmo on Thursday January 16, 2025 @06:53AM (#42724127)
I broadly agree, except I think the greater moral hazard is in failing to prosecute the plain-as-day cases of fraud (regardless of size). I'm not arguing in favor of abandoning rules but given limited resources you have to prioritize somehow, and every prosecution strategy has significant externalities like those you touched on.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by gmd63 on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @09:12PM (#42720174)
I completely agree about the dangers and am disgusted by the story you shared and others like it.

In an ideal world nobody would commit a crime. Sadly we're far from an ideal world, and the US authorities in my experience are not well funded enough to adequately cover the ground they're responsible for. We also have a populace that voted for a felon who hates the IRS and has cronies who have floated dismantling the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, so short sellers will have to do.

And the betting markets like Polymarket are worse. They had bets as to whether the fires in LA would be contained by certain dates. You can imagine the perverse incentives that creates.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by attila-lendvai on Thursday January 16, 2025 @06:51AM (#42724112)
no amount of funding can compensate for inappropriately aligned incentives.

the ability to spend other people's money will always be the breeding ground of corruption (which includes not doing your job while accepting the salary).

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by Spivak on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @08:44PM (#42719949)
Truly perverse incentives such as one the one you linked aside I think it's mostly fine. Naked short selling is already illegal and the deck is heavily stacked against short sellers to begin with. A position betting on growth is by far and away the safest investment, the market directly incentivizes "irrationality" on the side of prices not going down, and it's infeasible to hold a short position for very long making it (mostly) noise to long term investors which are the ones we typically care about.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by mschuster91 on Thursday January 16, 2025 @02:04PM (#42729451)
> Truly perverse incentives such as one the one you linked aside I think it's mostly fine.

Well, the thing is, with AI being widely available the threat model explodes as the difficulty goes down drastically - imagine someone deepfaking a video of a C-level executive being involved in illegal or "extreme" sexual acts; we already have "nudifier" apps, the steps to cross for the mentioned scenario aren't that large. The number of potential threat actors explodes as the group is now "everyone with a smartphone", and it also explodes as the likelihood of getting caught (and sentenced to decades in jail, if not death) for shooting someone in public is significantly higher than getting caught "leaking" a faked video which at worst risks you a year or two for defamation.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by barnabyjones on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @08:53PM (#42720011)
Keep in mind, fraud isn't necessarily a big deal for the shareholder, not all fraud is Enron-tier. For example, I fully believe they were right about Adani, but it was basically just skimming money off the top. If Adani is an embezzler, but also good and funneling bribes to get gov't contracts, then the overall effect on profits may just be breakeven or even positive. The losers would be the Indian citizenry. The company isn't doing so well now possibly due to a culture of corruption, but that kind of long-term culture analysis is hard for traders. But generally, fraud isn't severe enough to enough to endanger the company, it's just taking some money out of shareholders' pockets, but dispassionate traders don't usually sell out of retaliation.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by yowayb on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @09:40PM (#42720394)
True. Small frauds are common. I know people that have gotten away with pump-dumps. I know people that have raised obscene money for terrible ideas. I even helped close one customer while at one company, and then when I moved to another company, I had to meet the same buyer and he chewed me out in front of my rep because of the shady deal from my last company. And I even had a customer that kinda defrauded us! And when I was younger, I saw a lot of tiny behaviors that might be considered fraudulent if looked at from the angle of a transaction. I had to stop working for a while because it was destroying my soul. Nate says there was no danger or specific reason to close, but I very much doubt this.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by dustingetz on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @09:55PM (#42720507)
zombie companies suck all the oxygen out of the room and away from productive companies, the victim is society and civilization at large and the damage is measured in lost exponential progress of unbound time axis, potentially millennia. Medical technology, longevity, scientific advances that we could have had but will not for another 10^N years - all retarded by malinvestment and misallocation. Theworldif.jpg
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by gmd63 on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @09:56PM (#42720509)
Some shareholders seek fraud as it has the potential for the highest short term returns. The sooner we exile those folks the better.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by rockskon on Thursday January 16, 2025 @02:48AM (#42722524)
Some "investors" did "invest" in Ponzicoin after all.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by sergiotapia on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @09:11PM (#42720171)
I won't name names but a very popular so called "app growth king" launched recently and it's just full of dark patterns. Even going so far as giving out a "free month", when it's just a way for the user to lock into a yearly plan after a one month trial.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by npinsker on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @09:33PM (#42720338)
Isn’t that virtually every (mobile) subscription app in existence…?
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by blackeyeblitzar on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @09:52PM (#42720485)
> Hindenburg's reports were a true pleasure to read, and their track record proves their positive contribution to society. Many self-important people online are quick to pounce on short sellers as being evil, and that will forever be a serious red flag to me thanks in no small part to Nate Anderson and the folks at Hindenburg Research.

Short sellers taking positions and then putting out report and marketing to bring a company’s price down can also be perceived as market manipulation. It’s not about people being “self important” but conflict of interest and the incentive to lie or exaggerate for those short sellers.

For example months after Hindenburg’s report on Supermicro, the independent committee investigating alleged issues found nothing wrong (https://www.morningstar.com/news/marketwatch/2024120275/why-...). The company ultimately confirmed that no prior or current financial reporting would need to be stated. So that makes the allegations false, or at least exaggerated, right? And doesn’t that mean profiteering through short positions and allegations of bad accounting would be market manipulation?

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by gmd63 on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @10:03PM (#42720566)
The first line of that article is

"New financial and accounting executives will be appointed, as recommended by the investigation committee"

I agree that harm is possible when short selling and lying about it.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by blackeyeblitzar on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @10:05PM (#42720585)
That’s because several people (and also EY, their auditor at the time) resigned in the wake of that report. Probably under pressure and lots of stress but also because of all the things that the initial independent investigation suggested needed to be reviewed. But now multiple investigations have completed those reviews and found nothing. And Supermicro has to fill vacant positions.

EDIT: since I am rate limited, here’s my reply to the child comment by gmd63

> Why would an investigation committee need to recommend that a company fill vacant financial and accounting executive positions? What you're saying makes no sense.

There are many reasons this can make sense. In this case, the most likely reason is that the allegations called into question the integrity of the executives and the board. New executives would be hired and approved by the same group, and it would look strange for them to do that while under investigation. The most important finding from the investigation is neither management (executives) nor the board acted improperly, which led to them making the recommendation.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by gmd63 on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @10:20PM (#42720686)
Why would an investigation committee need to recommend that a company fill vacant financial and accounting executive positions? What you're saying makes no sense.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by ImPostingOnHN on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @11:44PM (#42721328)
> Short sellers taking positions and then putting out report and marketing to bring a company’s price down can also be perceived as market manipulation.

Sure, in the same sense that releasing a 10-K can be perceived as market manipulation. In fact, if we define "market manipulation" to mean anything that might affect the market, many things can be perceived as market manipulation!

The question I think is more important is, is it bad? Sharing investment information you believe to be true and material to investors seems good to me.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by mv4 on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @09:59PM (#42720539)
Even without fraud, the markets seem incredibly forgiving. For example, one would think that what Crowdstrike outage did to the airlines and businesses worldwide (and the levels of incompetence displayed) in 2024, would have destroyed the company. Instead, the stock has recovered nicely and it's business as usual. Or the massive security breaches - same outcome, it's as though nobody cares.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by bruce511 on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @10:26PM (#42720740)
People don't invest because they think a company is competent. They invest because they are looking for a return.

The mistake CrowdStrike made will likely have little to no effect on their revenue. Since the stock dropped a bit (emotional investors getting out) it became a good value proposition, so people bought it cheap.

The reasons companies use CrowdStrike haven't gone away. Existing contracts can't just be terminated. By the time it comes up for renewal few will remember the incident, fewer still will care.

What you see as "levels of incompetence" others see as "made a mistake". You don't fire suppliers for a mistake- that's experience to them, and they're unlikely to make that mistake again anytime soon.

Plus of course, replacing anything like that at scale is a lot of work, expensive, and career-risky. Who, in the enterprise, is taking on that task? Who is advocating for it?

The market is forgiving because the outlook remains strong. The outlook remains strong because the business fundamentals remain strong.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by manquer on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @11:12PM (#42721103)
There are consequences, with significant financial impact, not necessarily world ending for them.

There are already lawsuits filed around this incident. If a court sides with the customers or if CrowdStrike settles them, it will not be cheap.

Even if they don't end up loosing or settling, the lawyers will not be cheap with so many suits , I don't think there is a major class action, every contract is unique after all, customers can easily afford their own lawyers and don't need to share.

Beyond that, in next renewal cycle, customers are likely to demand much stronger penalty clauses in the contract, they won't let the mistake of not putting strong financial penalties slide while they may not change the vendor. This will make insurance for CrowdStrike much more expensive, another mistake would be far more financially expensive even if this one doesn't turn out to be.

The insurer will also want a stronger internal process controls and paperwork which also won't be cheap.

Consequences in B2B are never immediate but over time they do happen, larger an org longer it takes, but eventually it does catches up, look at Intel or Boeing today.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by bruce511 on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @11:34PM (#42721267)
There will absolutely be consequences. And that'll cost real money.

But that is just a 'cost of doing business'. And ultimately will just work it's way into the price.

Intel and Boeing are not "one off mistakes". The root problems there are structural, cultural and fundamental.

If CrowdStrike have more issues this year, then that'll have an impact because it suggests there's a root problem. But a single bad rollout is just a bad rollout.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by manquer on Thursday January 16, 2025 @02:59AM (#42722609)
CrowdStrike problems are also structural the incident timeline hardly seemed like a fat finger mistake, but series of fundamental poor practices a org in their position should not have. We only get to see the one newsworthy incident like the door blowing off the airplane.

The "cost of business" will catchup to them is the point, Unlike Intel or Boeing it is not duopoly business with little to no options for CrowdStrike's product. It is notoriously brutal for large organizations in tech to stay competitive over 20-30 years time horizon.

Most likely trajectory for a company in their position, their growth slows - this incident being a key contributor to that slow down, then stock starts to fall, it will eventually become attractive for a company to acquire them, perhaps rebrand the product and keep the customers and cash flows.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by baq on Thursday January 16, 2025 @02:32AM (#42722423)
Lawsuits will take years by which time the company will either be gone or swimming in cash.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by manquer on Thursday January 16, 2025 @02:46AM (#42722514)
Lawyers have to paid now till then.

Companies settle much faster typically to reduce some of this costs, it ends up being cheaper.

Also many of these will be resolved through their arbitration clauses that would be present in the contracts. Arbitration is much faster and usually appeal proof

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by baq on Thursday January 16, 2025 @03:02AM (#42722635)
Delta sued for what, $500M? These would have to be some expensive lawyers, even for lawyers.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by manquer on Thursday January 16, 2025 @03:22AM (#42722788)
That is just one customer, and also it is not just lawyers, Contingent liabilities(potential amount for settlement) when it escalates from possible to probable, in GAAP that means it changes from mere footnote to a line item in P&L which needs to be financed and managed and affecting their margins well before the actual settlement is decided.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by baq on Thursday January 16, 2025 @03:44AM (#42722960)
Looks to me the market priced this in.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by bruce511 on Thursday January 16, 2025 @03:26AM (#42722826)
Meh- Delta sues for 500 million is just the headline. They'll end up settling for nothing like that.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by baq on Thursday January 16, 2025 @03:46AM (#42722976)
So either way a non-issue for today.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by chii on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @11:17PM (#42721138)
There was a case of food contamination in a fast food joint (can't remember which, let's say it was burger king). The stock fell as a result, but recovered relatively quick afterwards - you would've made bank buying it low.

The thing is, individual, one off events usually don't break a company, but the stock falls temporarially as a result of some people expecting it to. Of course, it's possible that one event breaks a company, and this is the risk you do take buying it low after the event.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by bruce511 on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @11:27PM (#42721208)
Exactly. There's news every day. It takes a lot of bad news to break a company.

And frankly unless it's criminal (Enron, Theranos etc) it's not a big deal. An oil spill here, a data leak there, these are not things that affect customer behavior.

The market is only interested in results. It doesn't care about the news. Those stock dips you see are uneducated emotional investors making bad decisions for the wrong reasons.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by fakedang on Thursday January 16, 2025 @01:58AM (#42722228)
> There was a case of food contamination in a fast food joint (can't remember which, let's say it was burger king). The stock fell as a result, but recovered relatively quick afterwards - you would've made bank buying it low.

I think this was some years ago and it was Chipotle. They had to remove some menu items altogether IIRC.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by int_19h on Thursday January 16, 2025 @03:24PM (#42730430)
It's a recurring thing. Back in the 90s it was Jack in the Box (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992%E2%80%931993_Jack_in_the_...)
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by rcpt on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @10:25PM (#42720728)
Equifax should not be in business anymore
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by sebmellen on Thursday January 16, 2025 @12:11AM (#42721536)
We work closely with them and I've been impressed with how broad their product reach is. Whether they should be in business or not is a question for regulators, but the market rewards their unique position. If you continue to own something valuable that everyone else needs or wants, they will pay you for it.

There's a bigger question about how to properly price and penalize negative externalities. From a business perspective there isn't much difference between an oil spill and a mass data breach — "Whoopsie, we'll try not to do that again. In the meantime don't you need gas for your car?"

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by MattGaiser on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @10:46PM (#42720899)
Has anyone actually fired Crowdstrike over the incident? Heck, did Delta fire Crowdstrike?

I think the stock market is accurately realizing that it takes a lot of effort to fire a company embedded in your security infrastructure and that the incident probably won't change sales.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by WalterBright on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @10:38PM (#42720843)
> I've ironically lost more money the more closely I've paid attention to my investments

Money Magazine a few years ago compared various investment strategies in stocks. The #2 best performing one was investing in the S&P 500. The #1 best performing strategy was the "dead man strategy".

The dead man strategy comes into play when the investor dies, and his estate gets frozen until it winds its way through the courts. It turns out that doing nothing with your stock investments is (statistically) the best strategy.

I know for a fact that when I do nothing with my stocks, they also perform better.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by kqr on Thursday January 16, 2025 @12:03AM (#42721470)
A few years ago cost structures for managing one's investment portfolios were also significantly higher than today!

There's an even better alternative for someone willing to put in the leg work:

(1) Figure out your investment horizon. For many people, this is way shorter than suggested by generic advice, which makes some diversification beyond "stonks go up" meaningful.

(2) Figure out what costs you'll incur by rebalancing etc.

(3) Write a short script that optimises the amount of activity in portfolio management that improves performance over your investment horizon, given your costs.

Unsurprisingly, the result can vary a lot between people. The result is most likely going to involve a very low level of activity, but the process of finding it out is very informative.

What I've found out (and this is replicated also by more authoritative people like Carver) is that for almost everyone, mixing in some 10--20 % of a safer asset like 10 year bonds and rebalancing yearly outperforms a pure equity portfolio over most realistic investment horizons.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by Galanwe on Thursday January 16, 2025 @01:37AM (#42722084)
Agree with you 100%, I did the same simulations and found the same result.

I would suggest a step beyond though, because rebalancing your portfolio is fun year 1-5, but not so fun year 5-20: have a look at e.g. Vanguard retirement target funds.

Essentially, it's an ETF with a rebalancing rule included for a specific target date. For instance if you buy the target 2050 (your hypothetical retirement age), the ETF rebalances itself between bonds/monetary fund/stocks until it reaches that date, u til it's pretty much all cash in 2050.

Lowest hassle diversified retirement scheme I found.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by kqr on Thursday January 16, 2025 @02:48AM (#42722521)
This is one of those things where again, one will have to weigh the costs of both alternatives. A rebalancing ETF usually has higher costs (management fees, but possibly also internal trading costs that show up as performance beneath benchmark index), but of course, manually rebalancing also has a cost – the cost of one's time and effort!
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by agos on Thursday January 16, 2025 @04:25AM (#42723228)
Vanguard's ETFs are really cheap. The retirement funds in question are like 0.24%, which is in the cheaper range for ETFs
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by youngtaff on Thursday January 16, 2025 @03:59AM (#42723054)
You still need to be invested in equities at retirement otherwise inflation just eats away at the value of the cash
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by sgerenser on Thursday January 16, 2025 @09:17AM (#42725388)
That’s why these target funds go down to ~50% stocks [edit: at the target date] not 0.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by ac29 on Thursday January 16, 2025 @09:30AM (#42725590)
At least at Vanguard the final stage of target date funds is ~30% stocks: https://investor.vanguard.com/investment-products/mutual-fun...
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by sgerenser on Thursday January 16, 2025 @09:46AM (#42725872)
That fund is currently at 50% stocks. It does get more conservative as you get past the target date, but I was mainly referring to the stock percentage at target date, which the parent poster implied was almost zero.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by arpinum on Thursday January 16, 2025 @05:54AM (#42723777)
There are scenarios where these target date funds are not good.

Rebalancing into bonds and mmmfs is a form of insurance against catastrophic losses equities. But if you have a sufficiently large account then catastrophic losses that affect your life are extremely rare, if they do occur they will likely affect your bond portfolio as well, and the expected loss vs 100% equities over 15-20 years is significant, something like 10x the value of the insurance you are buying.

If you want insurance for a large account then long-dated put options 20% of the money are much cheaper.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by wil421 on Thursday January 16, 2025 @05:58AM (#42723792)
My target date 2050 funds have performed 50% less than my S&P 500 and like 30/40% less than my total stock market fund.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by jart on Thursday January 16, 2025 @07:26AM (#42724325)
You mean VFIFX? What a disaster. My retirement plan put me in that until I realized investment advice for young people is a tax on the inexperienced and vulnerable. VFFSX (S&P 500) does 2x better returns every time. I feel guilty saying it on Hacker News. Like pension funds I bet Vanguard is one of these so-called LPs who give money to VCs like Y Combinator to help ivy league kids follow their dreams. Without these heroes I'm not sure there'd be a startup economy. I just don't want to be the one who pays for it. I think the future Wall-E predicted with Buy N' Large is probably closer to the truth.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by ac29 on Thursday January 16, 2025 @09:27AM (#42725538)
> VFFSX (S&P 500) does 2x better returns every time

US large cap has certainly recently outperformed the other parts of the target date fund (international stocks, bonds). But there is certainly no guarantee that it will happen "every time". In the last 10 years, US equity has been the best overall performing asset class for the past decade but 7 out of those 10 years at least one other category outperformed it: https://www.blackrock.com/corporate/insights/blackrock-inves...

> Like pension funds I bet Vanguard is one of these so-called LPs who give money to VCs like Y Combinator to help ivy league kids follow their dreams.

You can look up the holdings of VFIFX or any other Vanguard fund. There is no private equity or private credit.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by jart on Thursday January 16, 2025 @05:30PM (#42731735)
And now GLD with its 1 year return at 40% is outperforming them both, which is a really scary thought. How bad do things have to be, that all our blood sweat and tears scurrying off to work each mourning earns less than a piece of metal dug out of the ground that sits around doing nothing? I thought inflation was supposed to be a tax on poors, but even rich private equity which gets ahead by sucking the blood out of Americans digging themselves out the grave can't save itself.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by sgerenser on Thursday January 16, 2025 @08:33AM (#42724860)
Nope not all cash, it goes down to around 50% stocks at the target date (and actually continues to get slightly more conservative after). Just look at the current portfolio of the Vanguard 2025 fund: https://investor.vanguard.com/investment-products/mutual-fun...
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by tminima on Thursday January 16, 2025 @01:51AM (#42722165)
I want to learn more about how to rebalance my portfolio. I started with ETFs and MFs and then bought some good stocks when they were low. But I have never rebalanced it. Would you be able to share some resources about it? Also, if possible, some pointers about your script.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by rokkamokka on Thursday January 16, 2025 @02:01AM (#42722240)
Rebalancing is just selling the high performers and buying the low performers. In his example, you'd keep your "safe asset" allocation at say 15% - if your other stocks did well one year, you'd sell some and buy more "safe assets" so they again constitute 15% of your total value. If stocks tanked, you'd instead sell some "safe assets" and buy more stocks, again until your "safe assets" are back at 15% of total value.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by WalterBright on Thursday January 16, 2025 @02:52AM (#42722558)
> Rebalancing is just selling the high performers and buying the low performers.

Guaranteeing mediocre performance. Not my cup a tea.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by kqr on Thursday January 16, 2025 @03:48AM (#42722989)
Not at all -- it uses volatility in one's favour, by cashing out on temporary peaks and buying in on temporary lows.

What you describe sounds like a kind of momentum/market cap investing, which is favourable in the short term, but suffers a lot when things go bad.

(This is assuming one cannot predict future returns better than the rest of the market. If you do that all the better!)

Seems like there's a lot of confusion on this. I'll see if I can get a fuller article up.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by ozim on Thursday January 16, 2025 @03:16AM (#42722738)
Mediocre performance is better than your top performers dropping 30% or 60%.

I can point couple companies that suddenly dropped from $90 a share to below $10 and then they never got up “Just eat takeaway.com” between 2018 and 2022 it was looking like they would go to the moon. In 2022 you can see hell of a drop and it is not going back.

If you would sell parts of it before 2022 you would lock at least some of the gains.

But I think you know better when to switch companies ;)

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by WalterBright on Thursday January 16, 2025 @01:13PM (#42728778)
Oh, I've had my portfolio drop 90% once. And drop 50% at other times, and 30% drops.

It's not easy to suppress the panic.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by sotix on Thursday January 16, 2025 @09:30AM (#42725591)
I'd be interested in reading more literature (e.g. from Carver) if you have any links!
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by kqr on Thursday January 16, 2025 @11:10AM (#42727190)
I have only read half of Carver's Smart Portfolios yet but I find myself agreeing with much of it. I have started writing up a review of it sometime soon, although I might not publish it for free in a while!
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by tombert on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @11:45PM (#42721330)
This doesn’t surprise me in the slightest.

Most of my investing is just in passive S&P index funds, but I do occasionally buy individual shares.

Sometimes I make decent money, sometimes I lose money…turns out I consistently do worse than the S&P long term.

I treat buying individual shares as yuppie gambling at this point. It can be fun, but it’s usually a bad strategy.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by Scoundreller on Thursday January 16, 2025 @01:14AM (#42721934)
> I treat buying individual shares as yuppie gambling at this point. It can be fun, but it’s usually a bad strategy.

Naw, that's boomer gambling.

Options are yuppie gambling.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by tonetegeatinst on Thursday January 16, 2025 @02:01AM (#42722242)
I thought that was shorting biotech stock days before clinical trial results get announced?
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by Koffiepoeder on Thursday January 16, 2025 @02:26AM (#42722381)
For extra flavour, also invest solely using loaned money, preferably a student loan that never goes away!
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by eru on Saturday January 18, 2025 @05:41PM (#42752003)
Yuppies were a thing in the 1980s. I think you have your timelines off.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by fakedang on Thursday January 16, 2025 @01:46AM (#42722133)
> I treat buying individual shares as yuppie gambling at this point. It can be fun, but it’s usually a bad strategy.

I would actually recommend the opposite - buy shares of a few companies that you know exceptionally well. That is, not just the companies, but also the market, the industry trends, etc. Charlie Munger recommends holding 5 stocks at max, while Peter Lynch suggests industries that are tangential to your work and daily life. Both solid advice. Revisit the list every year, and you'll already do better than most of the blind duds investing in the S&P500 (which arguably contains a lot of duds).

The problem with most ETFs is that you'll still be investing in a bunch of dud companies, whose only reason for staying in the market is by virtue of being big (think HPs and IBMs, for example).

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by Workaccount2 on Thursday January 16, 2025 @10:23AM (#42726475)
The problem with ETFs is that many of them have crazy management fees.

Don't just blindly buy an ETF that fits your investment goals. Many of those bespoke ETFs have 1%+ management fees.

You can look up how even a 1% fee can gobble up piles of money over years.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by tombert on Thursday January 16, 2025 @10:38AM (#42726699)
That's why I am partial to the Vanguard funds. If you look at VUG and VTI and VOO, the fees are on the order of ~0.03-0.04%.

I know that passively-managed ETFs aren't necessarily "optimal" (as your parent comment mentioned, there's a risk of them having a few duds there for legacy reasons), but I think the value that they provide come down to the fact that they're automatically rebalanced and diversified, and 0.04% seems like a pretty reasonable cut for them doing that for me.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by fakedang on Thursday January 16, 2025 @11:05AM (#42727115)
I didn't mean buy any ETFs either. I was making the case for individual stock holding, as a response to my parent comment.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by tombert on Thursday January 16, 2025 @11:58AM (#42727807)
To your point though, even Berkshire Hathaway invests in VOO and SPY: https://www.morningstar.com/funds/spy-vs-voo-which-warren-bu...

I think there's value in having things diversified and rebalanced automatically, especially if you don't have any confidence in your own ability to do so. Yes, you sometimes get stuff that's overvalued and thus over-represented, but in theory if the stock tanks the portfolio will be rebalanced and thus become a smaller percentage of the total holdings.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by eru on Saturday January 18, 2025 @05:39PM (#42751998)
> That is, not just the companies, but also the market, the industry trends, etc.

That sounds like exceedingly bad advice.

Eg I work in software (like many people here). So my career itself already heavily exposes me to ups and downs of that industry; but it's also the industry I know best. The advice you quote would see me increase my already outsized exposure to that industry ever more.

Diversification is the only free lunch in finance. Your advice rejects it.

> The problem with most ETFs is that you'll still be investing in a bunch of dud companies, whose only reason for staying in the market is by virtue of being big (think HPs and IBMs, for example).

Feel free to use the gambling money part of your portfolio to short them.

And since HP and IBM etc are publicly traded, there are already lots of short sellers around making sure the prices stay reasonable.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by WalterBright on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @10:53PM (#42720959)
The conventional wisdom is to sell your profitable stocks, to "lock in your gains", and sell your losers to "cut your losses."

I call that "minimizing your gains" and "locking in your losses", and just hold instead. If I "locked in the gains" I would have missed out on 10x returns.

Of course, I did ride Enron all the way to zero (!), but it didn't matter. Think of it this way - buy 10 stocks. 3 go to zero. 6 have modest returns. 1 is a 10x winner, that more than makes up for the failures, and becomes the tentpole for your assets.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by chii on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @11:11PM (#42721099)
> 1 is a 10x winner

out of 10 stocks, 1 being a 10x winner is an absolutely rarity and the fact that you would manage to pick it is pure luck tbh.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by chrismarlow9 on Thursday January 16, 2025 @12:14AM (#42721558)
Oh there's more luck required than that. You have to get lucky many times to win at a 10x stock.

- You have to be lucky enough to find it when it's cheap.

- You have to be lucky enough to hold on to it even if it loses money

- You have to be lucky enough to not sell it when it's at only 5x and hold off for the top

- you have to be lucky enough to have bought enough initially that the return is meaningful to you

These are the thoughts that made me clean up how I invest and stop thinking I'll get lucky at some point just rolling the dice. It's way more luck required than just buying in early.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by sgerenser on Thursday January 16, 2025 @09:13AM (#42725344)
The 4th point (bought enough that the return is meaningful) is the killer one. There’s always “that guy” that brags about buying TSLA or NVDA in 2015 and having 100x his money. Then it turns out he only bought like $500 worth. Sure, $50K isn’t nothing, but it’s not going to be meaningful to the retirement of someone making tech worker wages.

Of course, the reason he didn’t buy more was because he knew it was a lottery ticket and putting most of his money in the S&P500 in his 401k was obviously more prudent.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by WalterBright on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @11:26PM (#42721203)
QQQ is up 5x in 10 years. Being an ETF, that means many of its components must be 10x.

I suppose it's dependent on your time horizon. MSFT is up around 10x since Nadella took over. It's more common over 20 years, obviously.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by silisili on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @11:30PM (#42721237)
The other neat thing about ETFs is that there are so many similar, you can effectively use them for TLH to help offset future gains.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by WalterBright on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @11:37PM (#42721293)
The IRS disallows wash sale deductions if you reinvest in a substantially similar investment within 30 days.

I'm not an IRS agent and have no idea what they mean by substantially similar. You might want to talk to your tax accountant.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by silisili on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @11:48PM (#42721353)
> substantially similar investment

They actually use the word 'identical' instead of 'similar', if that matters. It seems to be a grey area with ETFs, and I'm not a financial advisor, so won't make any further claims.

> You might want to talk to your tax accountant.

Absolutely agreed. You can also just let a reputable robo do it for you if you don't have the time or energy for it, there are multiple. It is what I ended up doing. It's modest but every bit helps.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by tenuousemphasis on Thursday January 16, 2025 @01:02AM (#42721854)
Robo advisors are intricately familiar with tax law? That's new to me.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by Scoundreller on Thursday January 16, 2025 @01:17AM (#42721959)
US lets you claim $3k of capital losses each against income, so a robo advisor can optimize for this
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by sgerenser on Thursday January 16, 2025 @09:22AM (#42725445)
Indeed, the wording is “substantially identical”, which is important. 2 different ETFs that track similar, but not identical indices (e.g. S&P500 vs Russell 1000 large cap, for example) are clearly not substantially identical, and make great tax-loss harvesting pairs. There’s tons of case law, opinions from tax experts, and automated tax-loss harvesting tools from a variety of brokers that agree with this viewpoint.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by voldacar on Thursday January 16, 2025 @07:57AM (#42724553)
IIRC they have never defined "substantially similar" and they don't actually go after people who sell etf X and immediately buy etf Y with an identical price graph
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by biminb on Thursday January 16, 2025 @10:31AM (#42726616)
Are 'many of its components up 10x'??

Isn't it the case that a few large cap stocks have the vast majority of the growth? If you didn't like Tesla, didn't like Nvidia, didn't like big 5 tech, you might have had very mediocre returns.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by xenihn on Thursday January 16, 2025 @12:35AM (#42721694)
I've done it repeatedly over the past ten years while DCA'ing. I basically made my own custom funds with 5-10 stocks, set daily purchases for a specific amount, and didn't think about it. Unfortunately I didn't invest enough each time for the amount to be significant, and I also stopped DCA'ing as soon as I couldn't resist checking, saw that I had reached or was approaching a 10% loss in my overall DCA portfolio, and stopped the auto-buys because I felt like I was starting to burn money, when this was actually the best time to continue investing. I haven't sold anything either though. Overall I'm up 80%, which is only $50k.

I think DCA is the most effective investment strategy. Unfortunately I don't have the discipline to keep it up during a downturn. Next time I try it again with picked stocks will be my 4th time, but for now, I'm doing it with index funds. I'm not going to feel as inclined to pause my purchases during an index fund downturn.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by lazide on Thursday January 16, 2025 @12:53AM (#42721789)
Well, also the market has done almost nothing but go up over the last 10 years, correct?
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by xenihn on Saturday January 18, 2025 @12:26PM (#42749830)
No, I went under significantly multiple times, including 80%+ losses that eventually reversed on some. Though these dips wouldn't have been as drastic if I had not stopped DCA purchases.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by kragen on Thursday January 16, 2025 @05:09AM (#42723483)
I'm guessing "DCA" means "dollar-cost averaging": https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/dollarcostaveraging.asp
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by eru on Saturday January 18, 2025 @05:43PM (#42752012)
Yes, and it's silly and doesn't work.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by WalterBright on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @11:07PM (#42721068)
I have a friend who retired, and decided to go into day trading. He spent hours each day glued to the trading portal, making trades. After a year, he ruefully admitted that he'd have made significantly more money if he'd simply done nothing.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by jpcom on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @11:39PM (#42721299)
Sometimes I ask GPT to run Bayesian analyses on varying hypotheses. I just did that for the several parent comments to see if we could get some reasons as to "why day trading doesn't work." Perhaps this will amuse you as well: https://chatgpt.com/share/67888cf4-1aa4-8011-b46b-77e5e9da12...
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by semi-extrinsic on Thursday January 16, 2025 @12:16AM (#42721572)
Is there any reason to believe the probabilities involved in those computations are not just coming straight out of rand()?
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by WalterBright on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @11:45PM (#42721331)
Yes, thanks for posting it!
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by davedx on Thursday January 16, 2025 @04:56AM (#42723393)
Exactly. I started buying NVDA in 2020 and I still hold almost all of it.

If you do rebalancing then you might as well hold an ETF that does it for you at the lowest cost. If you hold individual equities, keep your winners.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @11:28PM (#42721220)
> turns out that doing nothing with your stock investments is (statistically) the best strategy

The only thing a small investor can control are fees. Minimising transactions minimises fees.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by WalterBright on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @11:34PM (#42721263)
You also get heavily taxed for the short term gains.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by eru on Saturday January 18, 2025 @05:45PM (#42752030)
Depending on jurisdiction.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by eru on Saturday January 18, 2025 @05:45PM (#42752026)
No, you can also control diversification and taxes.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by safeimp on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @10:52PM (#42720953)
Do you have a link to that article?
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by WalterBright on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @11:02PM (#42721030)
I wish I had clipped and saved it. I can't even tell you what year it was. Sorry. But what I wrote is all one needs to know about it.

Here's a similar article:

https://www.businessinsider.com/forgetful-investors-performe...

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by safeimp on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @11:45PM (#42721337)
Thanks anyway, this is still interesting.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by WalterBright on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @11:10PM (#42721091)
P.S. I'm not a financial advisor. Make your own decisions.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by WtfRuSerious on Thursday January 16, 2025 @02:49AM (#42722528)
I can think of at least one situation, like expiring options, that you wouldn't want to have happening during your "court frozen" period...
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by kragen on Thursday January 16, 2025 @05:11AM (#42723502)
I assume that in-the-money options are automatically exercised at expiration in the dead-man situation?
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by Shocka1 on Thursday January 16, 2025 @09:13PM (#42733342)
Yes, they will automatically exercise if your dead, the same way they auto execute when you are alive. I have sold many options over the years, with many of them exercising. If they expire ITM, you don't have a choice (whether dead or alive) past expiration.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by kragen on Friday January 17, 2025 @05:42AM (#42736141)
Thank you for the confirmation!
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by graemep on Thursday January 16, 2025 @03:07AM (#42722673)
Doing nothing saves trading costs which are a major drag.

The standard advice for equities investors (at least in the UK) has been to invest in tracker funds for a very long time.

it is possible to beat the market. Many years ago I double my money in approx an year - but I invested heavily in I had been covering as a analyst (one of my previous careers) until immediately before. I am more cautious now.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by matwood on Thursday January 16, 2025 @03:54AM (#42723015)
Trading fees are at or near zero in the US now unless you mean capital gains.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by graemep on Thursday January 16, 2025 @04:15AM (#42723153)
Not what I meant, but capital gains are another issue, but I am not in the US. In the UK we pay a 0.5% tax on ever transaction and often around £10 per transaction, so its quite substantial. I should probably have said costs, not fees.

How much are total costs in the US?

If you trade frequently even low brokers fees add up. If its 0.1% and you trade monthly it ends up being 1.2% over the course of an year.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by matwood on Thursday January 16, 2025 @05:09AM (#42723485)
10+/trade is going back to the early 2000s for the US.

Now it's effectively 0 for most common trades. Here is Schwab for example:

https://www.schwab.com/pricing

If someone is a big options trader they can probably find a better per contract price out there.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by graemep on Thursday January 16, 2025 @06:38AM (#42724021)
How do they profit? There must be a cost somewhere? Another reply mentioned spreads - still a cost (you lose money when you trade).
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by matwood on Thursday January 16, 2025 @07:10AM (#42724243)
AUM, managing high wealth clients, running their own funds with expense ratios (also some of the lowest in the industry), uninvested cash, etc... Retail trading is commoditized now.

Anyone who really cares about spreads will be using limit orders. Otherwise you're talking about pennies on highly liquid shares.

The fact that we're even discussing the possible spread differences between market makers shows just how commoditized retail trading has become.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by thefreeman on Thursday January 16, 2025 @08:26AM (#42724783)
the sell order flow to market makers who gobble up the other side of bad retail trades
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by xen0 on Thursday January 16, 2025 @11:15AM (#42727268)
I highly doubt market makers are in the business of betting against retail traders.

I suspect they're in the business of collecting the spread on lots of small trades that they can assume are largely random.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by kortilla on Thursday January 16, 2025 @01:22PM (#42728882)
What you described is how you bet against retail traders. The bet is that they have no edge so it’s safe to run tight spreads and nice pure market making algos that assume random behavior at volume.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by xen0 on Thursday January 16, 2025 @01:48PM (#42729233)
Feels weird to call it a 'bet against' when the other side can (potentially) benefit from the tighter spread you offer.

But yes, the market maker doesn't run the risk of trading with someone with knowledge and a lot of capital to apply it.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by kortilla on Saturday January 18, 2025 @03:46PM (#42751287)
Yeah, I don’t like the phrase either, but market making in these pools is quite literally taking the other side of their trades.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by graemep on Thursday January 16, 2025 @09:05AM (#42725237)
Which means that your cost is market maker's spreads instead of fees. Still a cost to you.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by kortilla on Thursday January 16, 2025 @01:20PM (#42728858)
Nope, this is one of the counterintuitive things about people paying RH for order flow. Market makers can offer tighter spreads when they know it’s a pool of dumb money.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by graemep on Thursday January 16, 2025 @01:39PM (#42729127)
tighter spreads are not zero spreads
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by kortilla on Saturday January 18, 2025 @03:47PM (#42751297)
What’s your point? The spreads are tighter than you would get on the open market.

NBBO requires that if there is something better that Robinhood gives it to you.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by eru on Saturday January 18, 2025 @05:33PM (#42751959)
I think the point is that if you trade, you pay the spreads. Market makers can help you pay narrower spreads, but you still pay them.

If you just hold your index fund, you don't pay these recurring spreads.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by eru on Saturday January 18, 2025 @05:32PM (#42751947)
Low cost brokerages mostly earn money from the interest rate differential, ie what they pay from your un-invested balances vs what interest they pay you.

They also earn some money from 'payment for order flow'.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by wil421 on Thursday January 16, 2025 @05:54AM (#42723780)
All the major US brokers started doing free trades for stocks and etfs. For Vanguard, most of the index expense ratios are really low, like %.05 percent, but that’s not a trading fee.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by AdamN on Thursday January 16, 2025 @06:36AM (#42724012)
Even for paid transactions that typically give better pricing (IBKR Pro), the prices are extremely cheap.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by 4ndrewl on Thursday January 16, 2025 @06:48AM (#42724098)
How do they make money from you as a customer?
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by tim333 on Thursday January 16, 2025 @07:33AM (#42724383)
Quite a lot of customers either have cash sitting in the account which they make interest on, or have margin debt which they charge for.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by 4ndrewl on Thursday January 16, 2025 @07:44AM (#42724458)
Interesting, thanks. For a minute I was expecting someone to say "ads"
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by matwood on Thursday January 16, 2025 @07:20AM (#42724294)
You can Google it, but AUM at scale means .03% is a significant amount of money. There's also uninvested cash that the broker can invest in t-bills and take the spread.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by 4ndrewl on Thursday January 16, 2025 @07:48AM (#42724495)
Thanks for the lmgtfy :)

I bet the uninvested cash product drives some weird incentives - kpis around increasing ratio of sells to buys and increasing pain around removing cash.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by jkolio on Thursday January 16, 2025 @11:04AM (#42727108)
Front-running your trade.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by kortilla on Thursday January 16, 2025 @01:23PM (#42728895)
This is illegal and is absolutely the dumbest way to make money.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by valkmit on Thursday January 16, 2025 @01:27PM (#42728956)
nice try buddy, that’s ILLEGAL
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by jkolio on Friday January 17, 2025 @12:09PM (#42740482)
Oh no, I guess someone will be going to jail!

...No? Then, uh, a punitive judgment?

>Small fine that amounts to a cost-of-doing-business.

Ah. Hm.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by ifwinterco on Thursday January 16, 2025 @05:10AM (#42723492)
You also pay a spread every time you trade, especially if you're using a retail brokerage like robin hood that sells order flow to market makers.

It doesn't show up anywhere in your statement, but it's a real trading fee nonetheless, so it's still better not to trade too much

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by kortilla on Thursday January 16, 2025 @01:24PM (#42728913)
Retail is offered tighter spreads because it’s safe to assume they have no edge at scale.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by maest on Thursday January 16, 2025 @07:36AM (#42724403)
You pay the spread and you also have impact in the market.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by intuitionist on Thursday January 16, 2025 @07:49AM (#42724499)
If you’re trading US large-cap stocks at low frequency these are not really material costs for even a wealthy retail investor. Certainly not next to taxes.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by eru on Saturday January 18, 2025 @05:35PM (#42751969)
The spread is a material cost, but the market impact is negligible for retail investors, yes.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by WalterBright on Thursday January 16, 2025 @01:08PM (#42728688)
The explicit fees are near zero, but if you watch your trade you always get an adverse price.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by pxx on Friday January 17, 2025 @09:44AM (#42738004)
what are you talking about. you're not going to fill worse than nbbo
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by celticninja on Thursday January 16, 2025 @04:31AM (#42723261)
This is the same for cryptocurrency. The people who lost accessa and subsequently regained it usually made more than those with ready access who sold earlier or played the market.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by dmos62 on Thursday January 16, 2025 @04:55AM (#42723382)
So invest in s&p 500 and do nothing, right? That's a good strategy for someone young, because it makes sense to be risk tolerant then. As you age you want more and more of your portfolio in bonds/cash, because you want the reduced fluctuation in purchasing power (i.e. comfort) that that brings you. These are the bare fundamentals of portfolio management.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by eru on Saturday January 18, 2025 @05:44PM (#42752021)
If you are young, you might even want to invest more than 100% of your portfolio into the S&P 500.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by belter on Thursday January 16, 2025 @06:10AM (#42723864)
Did they include the Monkeys?

"Most successful chimpanzee on Wall Street" - https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/most-succ...

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by yard2010 on Thursday January 16, 2025 @07:26AM (#42724330)
This reminds me of that Mythbusters episode in which they test what is the fastest strategy in a traffic jam or congestion - switching lanes or keeping your lane. IIRC the result was that it's the same, but zigzagging makes you feel it's faster
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by ChrisMarshallNY on Thursday January 16, 2025 @08:43AM (#42724980)
That's worked for me, for well over 30 years.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by Workaccount2 on Thursday January 16, 2025 @10:18AM (#42726411)
Just yesterday it was announced that Bitfinex will be returned the 95,000 bitcoin that were lost in a 2016 hack. These coins will be returned to the account holders which were affected by the hack.

At the time the bitcoins were lost, they were worth ~$575 each.

Today those returned tokens are worth close to $100,0000 each.

I doubt anyone who was affected by that hack realized they just got involuntarily forced into the best investment of their lives.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by fckgw on Thursday January 16, 2025 @11:06AM (#42727137)
> These coins will be returned to the account holders which were affected by the hack.

I haven't seen any reporting on that. Bitfinex, the corporate entity, is receiving the coins recovered from the feds. It's up to Bitfinex how they device to dole out those funds, if at all.

When these things happen, often times exchanges will make their customers whole by giving back the monetary value of the coins at time of loss. It's very rare they repay them 1:1 in bitcoin.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by ElevenLathe on Thursday January 16, 2025 @01:25PM (#42728931)
IANAL but it seems like whoever is running Bitfinex should endeavour to make all the creditors whole in whatever medium their debt was denominated, according to seniority. So if they owe users X BTC and other creditors Y USD, and the BTC debts are senior, they should hand out the BTC to users regardless of its dollar value and, if there is any left, auction it off for the benefit of the (junior, in this scenario) USD creditors.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by fckgw on Thursday January 16, 2025 @04:17PM (#42731022)
They could, but there's nothing requiring them to do so.

AFAIK the only crypto company who have been hacked (and there are a lot) and returned funds as BTC and not in dollars is, ironically, Mt. Gox. Users got repaid in Bitcoin 10 years after the fact. FTX bagholders were compensated ~120% in "equivalent value" dollars. Lost crypto was not repaid.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by Workaccount2 on Thursday January 16, 2025 @06:02PM (#42732033)
https://support.bitfinex.com/hc/en-us/articles/115003282929-...

Apparently they created a token that entitles you to the lost bitcoin should they be recovered.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by chasebank on Thursday January 16, 2025 @11:11AM (#42727210)
Interesting part of the story is the hacker who stole them is a YC alumni, he founded mixrank. Kid only got 5 years in prison for stealing $1B.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by LoveMortuus on Friday January 17, 2025 @12:01AM (#42734262)
How can I use the 'dead man strategy' if I've just started investing and don't own any stocks?

Because if I already need to have some stocks, than this being the #1 strategy feels like those advice that you get on the internet where if you want to be rich just get born into a wealthy family.

Statistically probably true, but not really doable. :/

I feel like you can only do the 'dead man strategy' when your already dead, since before that it's probably better to keep adding money into the portfolio.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by sfblah on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @10:59PM (#42721010)
In basically every other era of investing since 1930, you would probably have benefitted from that approach. While I think you're right to set aside the prudence you were targeting in favor of a passive investment approach, I also think that once the Fed ZIRP era ends, the knowledge you amassed will again become useful.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by bboygravity on Thursday January 16, 2025 @01:37AM (#42722082)
Here I was thinking Hindenberg was part of the problem and you seem to think the opposite?

To me they seemed like partners of shorting hedge funds (similar to CNBC) who just spit out bs articles so their hedgie friends can trade on it.

DOJ seems to agree with me?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sergeiklebnikov/2022/02/16/doj-...

There are more and better sources.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by tim333 on Thursday January 16, 2025 @09:53AM (#42725977)
Not to take a position on those particular accusations but a problem with activist shorting in general is the people running the companies in question are often pissed of and aggressive and will try to take legal and PR action against the shorters.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by gmd63 on Thursday January 16, 2025 @10:23AM (#42726474)
That article says nothing that suggests Hindenburg is "part of the problem", only that they had received requests for information in line with an investigation.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by rachofsunshine on Thursday January 16, 2025 @02:24AM (#42722367)
This sort of thing is part of my personal motivation for getting into business. Lying is so rampant, so universal, so quietly accepted by everyone in a position of even mild power in business that it's easy to take for granted that you simply cannot succeed without it. I wanted to know if that was actually true - so far, it doesn't seem to be. But I don't blame people for worrying that it might be. People in positions of high power almost universally suck, and "just copy whatever really successful people do" is far from the worst strategy one can use in life.

(As always, you should trust what a founder says publicly about their company approximately not at all. If you want the answer for yourself, you gotta do it yourself, because you only know if you're lying or not. But I have my answer, I think.)

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by matwood on Thursday January 16, 2025 @04:09AM (#42723121)
I hear what you’re saying, but it feels a bit too cynical to expand it to all business. Did you tell your boss you’d finish some task today? If something comes up, as often does at work, and you don’t finish, did you lie? Predicting the future is hard even as soon as what will happen today, now do that for the next quarter or 4 quarters. Of course there are fraudsters out there, but I view most founders as rampant optimists instead of liars. And you kind of have to be an over top optimist to be founder.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by rachofsunshine on Friday January 17, 2025 @01:19AM (#42734615)
> Did you tell your boss you’d finish some task today? If something comes up, as often does at work, and you don’t finish, did you lie?

No. A good-faith failure is different from a lie.

The rule of thumb I use to handle ambiguous situations is "if my incentives were different, would I be saying something else right now?"

> Of course there are fraudsters out there, but I view most founders as rampant optimists instead of liars.

Most founders are both.

They're rampant optimists in the sense that they believe in their thing so much that it overrides all other concerns. But that often makes them liars via an argument of the form "my thing is so important and will change the world so much that I have to lie now to make sure it can be so great".

I'm not saying founders are ogres. The kind of lying they do derives from fairly ordinary human failures. But it's still lying, it's still normalized, and it still has terrible consequences all the time.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by scotty79 on Thursday January 16, 2025 @06:32AM (#42723987)
> I've ironically lost more money the more closely I've paid attention to my investments

Without insider knowlege market investments are pure gamble. The best you can do is to bet randomly. Once you deviate from random bets because you are mistakenly think you know something then your investments will underperform.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by SkyBelow on Thursday January 16, 2025 @01:08PM (#42728707)
That isn't guaranteed, because if so you can always do the opposite of what you think and you will overperform. Even if you think you know something, you are, at best, still being random. Anything perceived decrease in return from taking actions is itself just chance (and confirmation bias), because otherwise you could inverse it.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by scotty79 on Thursday January 16, 2025 @06:42PM (#42732388)
> Even if you think you know something, you are, at best, still being random

Technically true. But somehow in practice you are random in worse ways. Psychology of most people makes them generate very bad randomness.

But you are right. What I said is just good first approximation. Sometimes you can do better. For example listening to most popular financial influencers and doing exactly opposite of what they recommend gives slightly better returns (it was researched). I don't quite remember if better than fully random though or just better than following their advice.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by throw10920 on Thursday January 16, 2025 @07:08AM (#42724222)
> Punishment for financial crimes should be calculated based on the average lifetime earnings of a citizen -- if your victims are folks earning at or below the average wage, and you've scammed 100 lifetimes worth of average earnings, it's as if you've murdered 100 people.

This seems like utilitarian ethics. I don't subscribe to these. I'd say most people don't either. So why "should" we calculate punishments for crimes this way if we don't use the same ethical framework as you?

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by hotstickyballs on Thursday January 16, 2025 @07:12AM (#42724249)
Some people think it’s just a number but the reality on the ground is that money is literally lifetime.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by gmd63 on Thursday January 16, 2025 @09:58AM (#42726080)
Money grants you the power to influence others' lives. You take that from people illegally, and give it to yourself, you're creating an extreme negative effect on economic efficiency that should not be taken lightly and should be heavily discouraged.

Bill Hwang had settled insider trading charges a decade or so before he caused 30 billion dollars of liquidations after engaging in multiple forms of financial fraud. His insider trading punishment was likely lax and he committed crimes again, causing even more economic damage.

18 years in prison is nowhere near the amount of economic damage he caused. He amassed a net worth of 10-15 billion dollars. That's ten thousand average lifetimes worth of average American work. The punishment should reflect that. The expected value of fraud should be negative so that not even a degenerate gambler would consider it.

Can you explain your views as to why incentives to harm the economy massively via fraud to benefit yourself need to exist?

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by throw10920 on Thursday January 16, 2025 @10:09AM (#42726279)
> Can you explain your views as to why incentives to harm the economy massively via fraud to benefit yourself need to exist?

I never said that I hold that view nor do I believe it.

Between you falsely ascribing views to me I do not hold and/or lying about my words, avoiding answering my question, and your emotional manipulation, it's clear that you're a troll and I don't have any need to respond to you beyond pointing out your logical fallacies.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by gmd63 on Thursday January 16, 2025 @10:14AM (#42726351)
If you don't support the current punishments, which evidently don't deter the crime, what's your idea of how they should be strengthened to adequately deter financial crime? I'm not trolling.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by int_19h on Thursday January 16, 2025 @03:20PM (#42730389)
I'm not OP, but the obvious question here is whether tougher punishments would be more of a deterrent given that this is something that hasn't been true in many other cases going way back.

In particular, there seems to be substantial evidence that, at least past a certain point (and we can argue whether we are at that point or not, but it's not something self-evident either), what matters more is how likely the punishment is to be applied than how harsh it is, so increasing it further doesn't really do anything productive, just provides a public spectacle.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by gmd63 on Thursday January 16, 2025 @07:37PM (#42732756)
I disagree. Trevor Milton, the Nikola Motors fraudster CEO will be out after a laughable four years. That's a complete joke.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by int_19h on Thursday January 16, 2025 @10:49PM (#42733879)
Do you think he wouldn't do what he had done if the punishment for getting caught would've been worse?
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by gmd63 on Friday January 17, 2025 @12:15PM (#42740609)
When people see Milton getting locked up for four years, that's a complete joke and in no way proportional to the upside of making out with thousands of lifetimes worth of average honest work. If others who had done similar crimes before him had received more severe punishments he may have chosen not to.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by robertlagrant on Thursday January 16, 2025 @07:13AM (#42724255)
> Punishment for financial crimes should be calculated based on the average lifetime earnings of a citizen -- if your victims are folks earning at or below the average wage, and you've scammed 100 lifetimes worth of average earnings, it's as if you've murdered 100 people.

Can this precedent be extended to the money wasted with failed government projects? But maybe on lifetime taxes rather than lifetime earnings, to be fair.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by gmd63 on Thursday January 16, 2025 @10:02AM (#42726163)
That's not even close to comparable. You vote for elected officials to pass bills that are attempted and sometimes failed. And often failed projects produce things of value to society so I'm not sure how you would factor that in, for example if you'd like a refund on the Challenger explosion. You don't vote for criminals to take your money.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by robertlagrant on Friday January 17, 2025 @04:17AM (#42735582)
> And often failed projects produce things of value to society

True, although also, criminals buy things and pay VAT.

> You don't vote for criminals to take your money.

I vote for elected officials who pass bills (if I were American) that allow/disallow criminal activity.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by bugtodiffer on Thursday January 16, 2025 @09:52AM (#42725968)
> anyone acting in a fraudulent manner in finance

the system incentivises this behavior, no one is punishing the rich guys playing with our livelyhood

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by crayboff on Thursday January 16, 2025 @10:59AM (#42727035)
> The amount of deceit put out into the world and gobbled up, on purpose, in business is obscene and seriously depressing.

In business, politics, everything. It almost seems like everyone is quietly agreeing that "if we pretend the pesky truth doesn't exist for long enough, we can literally change reality to be what we want".

I feel like I'm going crazy. There's no way that's how things can work for long, right?

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by benreesman on Thursday January 16, 2025 @12:08PM (#42727936)
By all accounts it was like this at the end in the USSR too: infinite nepotism, no accountability, crashing standard of living near the median, deaths of despair attached to crazy levels of dangerous substance use.

This is what happens when bad people capture the levers of power.

https://youtu.be/IUJMyTJ9gyI

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by eltondegeneres on Thursday January 16, 2025 @01:34PM (#42729051)
I didn't watch this talk but I read the article it's based on.

When an Iraq War supporting Tory like Niall Ferguson criticizes the US military for being both bloated and stretched thin by underfunding, it gives away that the critique is just disingenuous contrarianism.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by jjkaczor on Thursday January 16, 2025 @02:20PM (#42729651)
... and look how well that has turned out for the average Russian citizen (or journalist, or competing business-person who stands too close to a window anywhere but the first floor)...
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by nradov on Thursday January 16, 2025 @02:55PM (#42730072)
There has never been a time in the history of the greater Russian Empire when good people captured the levers of power.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by ANewFormation on Thursday January 16, 2025 @11:48AM (#42727684)
You're not going crazy, they are. But even once things start falling apart, inertia alone can give the appearance of productive movement for years to come.

This is probably why when somebody looks to try to find the cause for e.g. the collapse of the Roman Empire there were a surprisingly large number of potentially serious issues all happening simultaneously.

The reason is that the empire probably collapsed decades before its fall and so the stupid decisions and actions all continued to pile up, seemingly without consequence. All until the inertia finally ran out and suddenly the entire house of cards came crashing down.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by roymurdock on Thursday January 16, 2025 @11:18AM (#42727313)
We've kicked the can down the road for a while, but no worries, we will pick it up soon and recycle it ;)
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by Herring on Thursday January 16, 2025 @01:29PM (#42728988)
It's not about pretending. Truth is the first casualty of war. If someone is trying to deceive you, they are actively exposing you to some kind of risk, usually for their own benefit, which is a hostile act.
Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by nipponese on Thursday January 16, 2025 @03:17PM (#42730332)
Buffet has this saying: "the stock market in the short term is a voting machine and in the long-term it's a weighing machine." I think a modern version of that is, in the short term the price is narrative and in the long-term it's accounting.

With Berkshire, Buffet figured out early, and firms like Hindenburg capitalized on the strategy of showing both sides of the story.

Re:I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research by rldjbpin on Friday January 17, 2025 @05:53AM (#42736220)
even if they were a beacon of truth, they were active market participant and would stand to benefit if the markets do react to their report.

how large businesses get away with things is true across markets and the precedence set let them be more fearless to keep committing them.

the reporting through the publication has an important place, but playing the market at the same time personally gets rid of any credibility.