I would say that a non insignificant portion of pickup truck owners, don't even need a pick up truck to begin with.
People spend $50k because they want that truck, not because they need it.
The cheapest Model S you could buy back in 2012 was ~$70,000, while the Leaf started at half of that in 2010, ~$35,000.
We buy cars that provide more than our needs so we aren't left needing in case we come across something that goes beyond our expectations.
Always buying just what is necessary right now in a bid to be efficient leaves no margin for error and will end up being inefficient in the long run.
I don't deny that driving a Ford F-350 is great in its own right, though. That thing screams 'Murica, and all the better if it gets us out of an unexpected rut every so often.
People got by just fine with sedans. Most folks who own a giant pickup drive it in the exact same way as a Honda Civic and have no actual need for a pickup. It's very apparent in how tall these vehicles are now. If you are actually hauling goods, you don't want clearance to be that high.
"*I dont even own a car - but everyone I know who has a pickup truck is never picking up ANYTHING...
Thats like me walking around with a large empty suitcase.
'OH... Are you going on a trip??'
'No, but I look like someone who *COULD*'
If you've read the article, you'd see its because these vehicles don't conform to Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards.
They look like utility vehicles to me, but then again I had a miata and a grom...
https://www.nhtsa.gov/importing-vehicle/importation-and-cert....
(This doesn't make Kei trucks safer, but it might have the same paradoxical effect as helmets on cyclists[1].)
[1]: https://slate.com/technology/2023/01/bike-helmets-cyclist-de...
* Kei trucks are the coolest. Big gubment is making it so we can’t register them due to protectionism!
* Chicken tax chicken tax chicken tax
* Big trucks cause more crashes because reasons!
* Trucks are just lifestyle vehicles and nobody actually needs or uses them
Over and over and over again
Maybe you can help break the cycle by looking at the huge used truck market we already have
I don't care about "truck people." I thought the article was nice and, as a non-driver, I find the Kei trucks much more interesting to look at (and ride in).
One thing that I try to remind people of is that pickup trucks are the best selling vehicles in the US because the approximate definition of 'Truck People' is everyone.
There are much smaller pickups than an F150, for sure. Like a Maverick, to use an easy example. And it's a popular choice, too, though it's probably not going to unseat the F150 anytime soon.
2. Why do you care? They're obviously losing in the US. They've been losing for 30+ years.
90s trucks still had poor mileage and were less safe overall than new vehicles, they aren't gonna be many people's top choice.
My current pet theory is that an equally big problem to the "aggressive bro styling super high front grill" issues is an overall decline in relative income/living standards. Less space + money to have a family car + a utility truck, so your truck ALSO has to have a huge cabin, and do everything else the family car should do too, so it gets huge overall even if the bed is no bigger or more useful.
Nobody says truck people bad, you're strawmanning all over this thread. I've owned two trucks, a full sized and a compact, I'm a republican and I believe that if I want to drive a 90s Kei truck and take the risk of dying in a car accident I should have the ability to assume that risk for myself. Same as driving a car from the 60s.
Washington State legislature was going to reduce the number of DUIs before prison from FIVE to FOUR (not 1 like it should be), but they chose not to because it'd be "too expensive". Yup, keep feeding us into the orphan killing machine.
These make me chuckle. Those people have never done home improvement projects or just projects that require picking up 8ft sheets of plywood or 20 bags of mulch.
Different strokes for different folks. It's going to depend a lot on what you routinely haul.
Just about the only thing it doesn't do well is fuel economy and driving in downtown urban areas. A large number of people rank those issues low on the list.
But pick up the overwhelm majority of items in the Celica, a two door hatch.
Anyways, suppliers deliver.
If you'd have told me 15 years ago that people would be buying pickup trucks brand new for $60k with regularity I wouldn't have believed you but here we are...
> I could rent this truck every weekend for 30 years for the same price as a giant truck.
That assumes the price never increases for 30 years.
> That assumes the price never increases for 30 years.
While the average truck owner is paying interest, I'll be earning interest, so let's call it even.
I grew up in south central Pennsylvania, and while we still have a fair amount of farmers in that region, most people buy trucks because they're marketed to, not because they're the right vehicle to own.
I clicked through here because I've seen a couple of Kei trucks in Philadelphia lately.
Have been thinking about a roof rack for sheet goods. Can't see why it wouldn't work.
The real solution is a trailer. I inherited a light crossover SUV that's more than capable of towing a 5x10 trailer with a modest amount of weight. UHaul rents trailers for the occasional use ~$20/day, no mileage charge. I say occasional use because it takes effort to go and rent it, and UHaul builds them like brick shithouses so you'll actually get one that's easier to tow if you just buy one for a few k$. And a trailer has very little maintenance compared to getting another motor vehicle. I've started bringing a pallet or two and putting them down under whatever I get so I can just fork stuff off at home (and then in the case of stuff from big box stores, fork the rejects right back on to get returned).
These Kei trucks look neat, but I don't think they would actually solve many problems I have. A dump bed would be fantastic, but I could just bite the overpriced bullet and get a dump trailer, too. Like if it can't even carry 4x8 sheet goods then what is it actually good for?
I have an F250, which I drive about 2000 miles a year, almost 100% of the time it has a >30ft trailer behind it. But that one time that the stars align and I need it for a grocery trip, a bunch of people are thinking "see, that guy doesn't need a truck" and it reinforces whatever internal monologue they have going.
Meanwhile, approximately everyone here routinely drives alone in a vehicle capable of carrying 5-7 people. (and right about now, someone is about to reply with 'ride a bike, cars suck!')
Isn't the F250 a huge vehicle and that trailer seems huge, is it a boat?
The F150's towing capacity appears to be 5,000 to 14,000 pounds (random source: https://veteransfordtampa.com/ford-f-150-towing-capacity). You could tow a 1,300 pounds trailer with a regular car, e.g. the 2023 Ioniq 5 has 2,300 pounds of towing capacity.
Which is a big fucking trailer at 10% tongue weight.
In Europe Volkswagen Passat, which is a regular sedan, can tow up to 2000kg braked (I think that's 4400 pounds) and 750 kg unbraked (1600 pounds):
https://www.carsguide.com.au/volkswagen/passat/towing-capaci...
Unless these sites use different measurement systems for towing (could be, I have no idea about these things), wouldn't a much smaller but more powerful car do?
In Europe people regularly tow RV trailers with Volvo V60 wagons...
Although this is (slightly) on the more extreme side, "fifth-wheels"[2] are also common to see on the road. These certainly require larger vehicles to pull.
[0]https://autoline24.uk/-/auction/caravan-trailers/Bailey/Pega... [1]https://rv.campingworld.com/rvdetails/used-travel-trailer-rv... [2]https://rv.campingworld.com/rvdetails/used-fifth-wheel-rvs/2...
Hmmm... interesting.
It does make sense, though. Everything is bigger in the US: cars, roads, parking lots, nature reserves, people :-p
I won't deny the silly bro-dozers exist, they definitely do. But at least in my area they are just a fraction of the total trucks on the road.
You think that the problem is those "bro-dozers", and everyone else just needs a truck. The reality is that most people don't need a truck, and by driving one everyone else's life gets worse.
Naah, I wouldn’t do a thing that. I’ve lived in low-bike suburbs — hated it, but I know the score. :)
I mean, yeah. Ride a bike, cars suck.
I don't think that counters the fact that many do people drive gigantic vehicles they will never need, though.
> Meanwhile, approximately everyone here routinely drives alone in a vehicle capable of carrying 5-7 people. (and right about now, someone is about to reply with 'ride a bike, cars suck!')
You've managed to lump everyone who disagrees with you into either the "hypocrite" or "fanatic" boxes.
I drive a Mini Cooper, not that that's worth bragging about. How will you dismiss my opinion?
Not intentionally. Just the ones who loudly proclaim that most people driving a pickup don't actually need it. To everyone else who is just driving the car they feel best suits their needs, more power to them. This also includes the vast majority of pickup owners.
Except it is about having a tiny penis (or more accurately, a big ego):
https://theweek.com/articles/929196/case-against-american-tr...
"Furthermore, the specific design trend of the massive hood sticking way out in front of the driver, with a cliff-face front grille obstructing the view several feet out in front of the wheels, is entirely a marketing gimmick. The explicit point is to create an angry, aggressive face that will intimidate others, especially pedestrians. Don't take it from me, take it from the guy who designed the latest GM Sierra HD: "The front end was always the focal point... we spent a lot of time making sure that when you stand in front of this thing it looks like it's going to come get you. It's got that pissed-off feel," he told Muscle Cars & Trucks. "The face of these trucks is where the action is," marketing expert Mark Schirmer told the Wall Street Journal's Dan Neil, "a Ford has to say Ford from head on, a Chevy must shout Chevy. Every pickup has become a rolling brand billboard and the billboards are big." And as Neil discovered when he was nearly run down in a Costco parking lot, that massive grille creates a massive blind spot."
Uh-huh. You just have to have your pedestrian-killing monster. You'll starve without it!
it just makes me laugh.
It’s just physics. If you need it, fine, but seeing how much they are selling of those, a lot of us are starting to doubt how much of it is need vs want.
Here's an article covering how pickups are becoming more deadly to others in crashes, becoming more common on the road, and being purposefully styled to look aggressive:
https://theweek.com/articles/929196/case-against-american-tr...
"Furthermore, the specific design trend of the massive hood sticking way out in front of the driver, with a cliff-face front grille obstructing the view several feet out in front of the wheels, is entirely a marketing gimmick. The explicit point is to create an angry, aggressive face that will intimidate others, especially pedestrians. Don't take it from me, take it from the guy who designed the latest GM Sierra HD: "The front end was always the focal point... we spent a lot of time making sure that when you stand in front of this thing it looks like it's going to come get you. It's got that pissed-off feel," he told Muscle Cars & Trucks. "The face of these trucks is where the action is," marketing expert Mark Schirmer told the Wall Street Journal's Dan Neil, "a Ford has to say Ford from head on, a Chevy must shout Chevy. Every pickup has become a rolling brand billboard and the billboards are big." And as Neil discovered when he was nearly run down in a Costco parking lot, that massive grille creates a massive blind spot."
The article continues, discussing how actual commercial work vehicles (sprinter vans and cab-over box trucks for example) don't show the same styling trends.
I feel like there'd be a titanic shift in US pickup market if they could get a Hilux.
They don't. I used to own an F-350 for a race team and when I sold it for a Corolla I had a long argument with my insurance agent as to why the Corolla was going to cost me more to insure.
Despite their outrageous cost to own (which you would think would primarily be the driver of insurance fees), apparently large trucks are both stolen much less and get in fewer accidents due to their size. Hard to argue with the insurance company on the stats there.
I switched providers anyway and still saved on the Corolla, in case you were wondering.
IIHS and NHTSA have figures that are generally consistent with my speculation[1]:
1. Overall car occupant deaths have nearly halved since 1975, but have risen by 25% in the pickup category.
2. Trucks have fewer rollover accidents as a category, but those rollovers that do occur make up a far larger percentage of occupant deaths.
3. Consistent with (2), truck drivers appear to drive without seatbelts more often than other categories do (based on overall incidence in accidents), and suffer higher fatalities as a result.
This is the correct solution with auto insurance in America. You should never stay with the same company more than 3-5 years, just like you should never stay at the same job longer than that. Loyalty is penalized in America, and you can get a better deal by jumping ship. Always shop around for better rates when your auto insurance policy is due for renewal.
No you can’t
It’s like people who spend thousands of dollars on a wristwatch. They don’t do that because they need to know what time it is.
(1) https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/americas-cars-trucks-ar...
They're useless for most consumers.
Edit: flat bed pickup trucks that is, not lorries.
Regardless, the comparison was between Kei trucks and pickup trucks.
> Larger cars aren't inherently safer.
Yes they are, you're probably better off in a crash without a seatbelt in a bus than in the highly safety rated mini the bus crashes into. Newton matters.
I would like to see a citation on this. Car doors have gotten larger partly because there is so much more stuff going on there than 20-30 years ago, mostly a bunch of new electronics. They are also larger because, well, the cars are larger.
> ... you're probably better off in a crash without a seatbelt in a bus than in the highly safety rated mini the bus crashes into.
This is obviously not a fair comparison. I would be safer in a tank as well. Fact is, a current generation Toyota Camry is effectively safer than an early 2000s F-150.
E.g. [1] has a decent overview of the side impact saga for the Euro NCAP since 1997. I'm less familiar with how the American version has kept up.
In any case most mass market American cars target the Euro NCAP's safety tests, so it affects car design across the pond too.
> [...]mostly a bunch of new electronics.
I can't think of any electronics in doors than weren't there in 1995.
Powered windows have gotten more common, but if it weren't for safety considerations the thickness of doors should have reduced since then, as all the electronics involved are smaller now.
> Fact is, a current generation Toyota Camry is effectively safer than an early 2000s F-150.
Probably, but some quick internet searching reveals that if you add the weight of one person to the modern Camry it's probably heavier than the 2000s F-150, or thereabouts.
What I was referring to is that crash safety tests don't account for crashes between differently sized vehicles.
That's probably intentional, as regulators don't want to cause an arms race towards ever bigger cars.
1. https://cdn.euroncap.com/media/53189/19-0278-the-development...
Electronic locks, speakers, electronic bits of heated mirrors, airbags, etc. were absolutely not that common in the average 90s car.
Also, car dimensions are generally larger because we ourselves have become larger and taller. This becomes exceedingly obvious when comparing European cars in the past 40 years. If we look at the last 15 years, the trend is to make larger, more spacious cars, to the point where most firms are betting on SUVs over sedans.
> What I was referring to is that crash safety tests don't account for crashes between differently sized vehicles.
They do, though. What would be the point of testing a car safety measures only against cars of its size? In fact, there are plenty of videos out there of crash tests between sedans and trucks.
> That's probably intentional, as regulators don't want to cause an arms race towards ever bigger cars.
Uh? Manufacturers have been steadily increasing the size of cars in the past 20 years. Each Camry generation is larger than the previous one, and has nothing to do with regulators, it’s just that buyers want spacious cars.
Yes, but we're not talking about what's more common, but about how recent regulatory changes affected car design.
You can look up luxury models of mid or late 90s cars, and they had all those features. Now look at the same models today.
> car dimensions are generally larger because we ourselves have become larger and taller.
This is mostly due to changed regulations. Look at e.g. a 1980 model of a Toyota Corolla:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Corolla_(E70)
If you wanted to make a car with the same outside dimensions today you could barely cram two people in it, due to all the mandatory crumple zones etc.
Of course consumer demand is also part of it, but in some cases car manufacturers are still making 1980s design cars today (e.g. the 79 series Toyota land cruiser), they're just outlawed in Europe due to safety, pollution etc. regulations.
> In fact, there are plenty of videos out there of crash tests between sedans and trucks.
I'm talking about official safety ratings, e.g. this in the Euro NCAP:
https://www.euroncap.com/en/vehicle-safety/the-ratings-expla...
Although as that page explains the particular bias I had in mind was "fixed" in 2020, now it's a 1400 kg mobile trolley, so heavier cars are tested somewhat more realistically.
Well, no. You said that cars are larger because of safety regulations.
But the obvious rebuttal to this is that larger cars have been trending upward for decades, and the most obvious proof of this is the decline of the sedan in favor of the SUV.
> You can look up luxury models of mid or late 90s cars, and they had all those features. Now look at the same models today.
These were larger cars than the average as well. The 90s Mercedes E-Class doors were significantly larger and heavier than the ones in a Toyota Camry.
A current generation Mercedes E-Class is also larger than the one from 30 years ago, mostly because it has gone through a significant increase in interior space. Again, this is not something only Mercedes has done to their line, all automakers have gone down the same route.
> If you wanted to make a car with the same outside dimensions today you could barely cram two people in it, due to all the mandatory crumple zones etc.
That car is roughly the same size of a Volkswagen Polo, which fits 4 people, and holds pretty much the same volume in the trunk. The Polo has an five star EURONCAP rating. Hell, even the SMART Fortwo is a pretty safe car, and it's mostly plastic.
Yes, small cars exist and are safe too, but people just like larger cars better.
If they aren't, you can replace them with a cheaper, safer, more fuel efficient vehicle that meets US safety standards and is easier to maintain and register than a Kei, and probably at a comparable or far cheaper initial price than the Kei.
If they are using it for a practical purpose, you can't replace it with a Kei.
Either way, a Kei is probably the wrong choice for most US buyers.
(There are newer import-legal minitrucks that don't have the registration hassles, like Nissan Clipper, which makes the range of situations where the Kei makes a lot of sense outside of particular brand attachment even narrower.)
> There are newer import-legal minitrucks that don't have the registration hassles, like Nissan Clipper
I'm confused - the Nissan Clipper is a Kei car. Kei isn't a brand, it's just a description of a specific style of car (low weight, engine size etc incentivized by the Japanese government).
Often people living on large properties and in rural areas have vehicles that never hit public roads, and Kei car class vehicles or their equivalent get used every single day. Just think about the logistics of living down a long road on 30 acres - getting the mail, taking garbage bins out, moving tools, water, animal feed, debris, etc. Large trucks don’t even fit through some gates and Polaris/atv/small vehicle is often the best solution.
I would happily buy a kei truck, but something like an older Toyota Tacoma is my best bet right now.
If I could reasonably get and register a Kei truck in my state it would be the perfect replacement, literally all I need is some hauling space for big trash cans, and the occasional Home Depot run.
If they made them electric I'd already be getting one!
I've hauled bikes, lumber, furniture, rocks and soil for landscaping. Unfortunately, it's no good on the highway, so long distances are out, and your knees are the crumple zone, so I drive the same way I bike...hyper-vigilant and try to anticipate danger. Still worth it.
Not trying to persuade you, I just love to talk about my truck!
You can't, though: “half-ton” pickups start much lower than $50k and near universally have a 1,500+ lb cargo capacity (the half-ton designation is historical and almost never actually meant what it seems to, quater-ton is even worse.)
Seems more competitive with the $27K Hyundai Santa Cruz, with similar cargo capacity (by weight), 40 MPG mileage, US new vehicle standards compliance, but trading off a shorter bed length for a second row of seating.
Where!? I just priced a few 2010 F-150s at $30-40k.
Vanitas vanitatum, omnia vanitas.