This strikes me as a general comment about workouts, not about this application specifically, correct? I see nothing to indicate this application is targeting novices in particular.

That's kinda the issue. Who does it target? You pick an equipment and a muscle, and it builds a workout with six exercises to target that one specific muscle. Your performance will suffer and it will take countless of gym sessions to go through the full body. Who would benefit from this workout?

It's one thing to use such a tool to find new exercises to target a specific body part but then you should probably use the source the tool is importing videos from, not build a full workout just to see.

TBF, you can also select several muscle groups. But yes, consulting a specialist is definitely better...

I don’t see anything either that indicate it’s targetting people experienced with the matter; it just targets everyone.

The issue with most of those workouts is that they often incorporate „unhealthy“ exercises like squats (with weights) or situps. I find it really hard to find one that focuses on health rather than building muscle.

Strength training !== bulking up

High (comparative) weight + low reps builds strength (and muscle recruitment) without (necessarily) building lots of new muscle fibers. Muscle hypertrophy happens most often with lower weights and higher repetitions, plus loads of calories. A program like "Starting Strength" is not about hypertrophy.

Any exercise is potentially "unhealthy," particularly if it requires specialized movements. You can learn proper form for "base" lifts like the squat and deadlift without any equipment at first.

Sigh...squats considered unhealthy? A new lifter should be focused on form and technique for every weighted exercise.

Muscle does not 'build' without eating. Size comes from calories plus progressive loading.

As for as health goes, every person (particularly those untrained) would be more healthy with more strength. More strength means less likely to injure oneself in everyday movements and less likely to have events like falls as they get older. And to loop back around to the top, squats are key part of this type of health.

Why are Squats with weights “unhealthy”?

Because you can hold a squat with only body weight and improve faster that squatting with barbells.

What is your evidence that bodyweight squats let you 'improve faster' than barbell squats.

I admit you're probably right if your goal is to get good at bodyweight squat...

That's absurd, like saying "You can walk a mile and improve faster than running a marathon" is absurd. To anyone who isn't out of shape to the point of immobility, body weight squats are barely exertion.

... how are squats "unhealthy"?

If you're new to lifting, your form is likely to be terrible, it's easy to do some damage to your lower back and knees.

If you are new to lifting, you probably shouldn’t be handling weights that can damage your lower back and knees. You will learn the correct form as you progress. Ego is more dangerous than squats.

This is why bodyweight or lower weight squats like goblet are safer. Failure with bodyweight squat doesnt put you out two months. Very easy to add too much weight in the squat rack. Asking beginners to know good form on day 1 squatting means they need a trainer.

i've seen this mentality floating around and i don't quite understand it. i think the real problem is this sense of competition and machismo where new lifters feel like they have to be good at it on day one and can't employ a little humility and patience to work on their mobility. these movements are essential and it blows my mind the excuses people will make not do do them.

to anyone here who routinely jumps to one plate without warming up and struggles to hit depth: know that i pity you, but you can still back off and get good at these movements if you really care.

Not unless you chuck a whole lot of weight on inappropriately. The advice for almost all newbies is to start with the bar. Even then they could put some weight on and still not be at any risk at all. The issues don't show up for quite some time with inappropriate form, or u til quite a bit of weight is put on prematurely. Starting off with dome youtube videos is just fine. Getting help when you eventually want to progress further and get more serious is recommended.

Just to let you know there is not really any good evidence for anything you are saying.

I'm a fan of squats, I did 340lbs last week, heaviest 385lbs.

I got injured doing a 225lb warmup on squats. If I had to diagnose what actually happened, I'm overly tight and the synovial fluid caused some injury.

But that injury lasted 1-2 months, I just didn't squat. I've been neglecting stretching for to long.

Building muscle is possibly the most healthy thing you can do. Within limits if course. But it ensures a framework arround your sensitive ligaments your body build becomes straight and symmetrical. All ingredients for a injury free life. It should be mandatory for everyone to exercise 3 times a week and build up some muscle. Just like the good old cave days.

Squats are not unhealthy. They are probably the single most useful exercises you can put your body through: high exertion activity for your largest muscle groups means it's a better calorie burner than most people's cardio routines, they work out your core and other stabilizing muscles, which helps you not hurt yourself anywhere else in the gym, and they (in conjunction with deadlifts) build the muscles human beings actually use to move heavy objects.

Could you explain why this is considered bad to just pick the muscle groups you want to train as a novice?

let's consider two movements: a deadlift and a prone hamstring curl.

the deadlift is something you've done a million times whether you know it or not, though the novice is probably more uncoordinated than they realize at higher weights. like it would be a struggle if not dangerous to move a couch, for example. this is a very practical skill to develop, and you're still "targeting" the same muscle group as...

...a prone hamstring curl. how often do you find yourself prone and flexing your knees against a load? probably never, right? how do you contextualize a movement like this to someone's day to day? what i mean is, what is even compelling about a movement like this and what does it actually mean to someone just starting out?

i'm the world's biggest proponent of "keep it simple, stupid" when it comes to working out, especially as a novice. super detailed split routines are more often than not overwhelming and set people up to develop bad habits while never meaningfully addressing the core issue that drive many people to go to the gym in the first place: people suck at moving.

Lack of time is one of the biggest reasons people stop lifting. Standard full body programs are going to be more efficient time wise than picking muscle groups. For example, a program with a lot of rows and presses needs little to no biceps or tricep work.

"Targeted" exercises tend to be body-builder type stuff which can only really be done with light weights. Instead, bigger compound movements like squat and deadlift can be incrementally trained leading up to much, much heavier weights and they train the body as an integrated whole.

In daily life, the body is used to move with many muscle groups working together. By using a targeted exercise, you can create muscle imbalances and injury is more likely (especially stuff like tendonitis).

It's not actually bad, it's just not the current Internet fad. If you like to work out that way, you should do it.

Maybe, although do people have success doing strength training individual muscle groups? I've only heard of this for bodybuilding.

I don't think I'd put a beginner on a bodybuilding program.

Not to mention, compounds mean learning the correct form for 4 lifts, where isolation means learning the form for ~30 lifts.

If you are deep into powerlifting or have been lifting for 15 years, sure, there will be a noticeable difference between training for strength and training for hypertrophy.

Not sure exactly what you’re arguing here but I think I disagree quite a bit.

I’ve been lifting for about six months, and I think this is the longest stretch I’ve been able to go without getting bored with it, because I’m at a gym this time and have access to a ton of equipment.

Variety can really make a difference, and some will say it’s good for your muscles anyways to do different exercises that are targeting the same muscle groups.

And the point of apps like this is that it makes it easy to say “today is push day, push is chest and triceps, show me chest and triceps exercises.” What’s wrong with a novice saying that?

> without getting bored with it

You're not going to like this, but lifting is about finding joy in the grind (like a lot of life). Gains are often incremental, but add up over time. For me, lifting is my alone time to listen to music and think. The lifting part is automatic.

I’ve clocked 4300 miles on my running app since 2011, after growing up hating running, so I’m aware of the grind. But there are different ways to run and some are more enjoyable to different people. I have to believe this is true in the lifting world as well.

Of course find what works for you, but 4300 miles even in your ideal setting ends up being discipline based over motivation. By that point you're running because you're supposed to run, not necessarily because you want to run. That's what I mean about lifting.

There's only so much novelty in a squat, so you have to find something beyond that. For me it was powerlifting, for others it's getting bigger, and others it's getting better in their sport.

Also, I deal with people and complex problems all day long. The gym is my retreat. I speak to no one and focus on the relatively simple task of picking up a weight.

Not sure I agree. At a point in my youth I ran 3000 miles in a year based on motivation (college competition, I was really motivated to keep the number one spot in the leaderboard).

Gatekeeping weight lifting? Come on. Let people work out the way that works for them.

I don't think of it as gate keeping at all. I'm being honest that anything you do for a long period of time becomes about discipline and not motivation. People say things to me like 'you must really like working out!' I don't think about it in a like not like way. It's just something I know is good for me and I do it.

And the reason I mentioned accepting the grind is because exercise is a life long activity. There is only so much novelty, so the faster someone finds the discipline to do it beyond novelty motivation, the better.

I have found it essential to have a plan on the day. No thinking or deciding, just look at the piece of paper and it says do X 3x10 times, and you do it. Then look at the next thing to do.

Do the thinking every 4-6 weeks as you rotate the plan - but also repetition lets you track some progress (reps / weight / how hard set was).

This is so incredibly important. As a beginner you can basically hit anything often enough and see progress. Once you hit intermediate and the gains slow down you really do need to walk in with a plan. The plan let's you not think and just work. Just working and not thinking, and basically just being told what to do (even if it is just telling yourself) let's you get through the workout repeatably, and with experiencing less of the grind. It also means you hit the body parts with incremental progressive overload in a planned and repeatable fashion, causing growth. And every 6-10 weeks you get the fun of changing it up.

And then there's the days where stuff doesn't quite work, but you have turned up anyhow. Those are days I chalk up to fun.

I've been using the Strong app to save workout templates (in a broad push/pull/leg framework) so I have a list of stuff to do each time, but if I'm bored with an exercise or (more typically) someone's been using the rack for 30 minutes and I need to move on, that's when I'll look for an alternative exercise. Apps like Strong or Fitbod or this new site are great in this scenario - can filter by what you have and will show you how to do it.

Variety can make the difference in motivation. If that's what you lack, then so be it.

But it's detrimental to a progressive/scienctific-like approach to lifting.

We want to know that over time we're getting progressive overload. That means you need consistency to watch that 1) The weight goes up for the same reps, or 2) the reps go up for the same weight (or 3, both). Unfortunately exercises are not direct replacements for each other meaning you cannot simply do the same for a variety of (eg:) bicep curls.

Once someone gets past what linear progression can achieve (see Strong lifts 5x5 app for example) then we start to do periodization or other plateau breaking patterns.

>But it's detrimental to a progressive/scienctific-like approach to lifting.

Uh, sources for that? As I powerlifter I have lifted with world class lifter who have a huge variations in their exercises. Bands,chains, boxes, pause/no pause, grip width, stance width.

Yes, of course a single exceptional exception makes it true.

The reason that works for a world class athelete is because they're extremely careful and persistent to periodize and have progressive overload.

Unless the commenter is an equivalent exception, it's bad advice to follow that, or any other, kind of advice from exceptional genetic folks.

It's very difficult to select the correct weight for an exercise when you're constantly changing it up.

What you're describing are simple modifications as a form of progression. Adding a band to a barbell bench press is still a barbell bench press. But going from barbell bench press, to weighted push up, to (incline|decline|flat) dumbbell bench, to iso lateral hammer machine, to smith, to (low, mid high) (cable, bench) flyes, to dips, to ... Is detrimental.

Most folks should try 12 weeks of the exact same exercise per body part with a RIR3, RIR2, RIR1, RIR0 cycle. (increasing weight each week and from cycle to cycle) . And most folks can do a reasonable selection of exercises for a year or two before they need to tweak for imbalance or personal details like insertions, or weaknesses.

Post proof that exercise variety is detrimental to achieving lifting goals. I'll concede that if you are competing in a strength sport, it is best to focus on the movements in that sport.

They’re likely just meaning it makes it harder to progressive overload. If you stick to a programme, you know it’s just about modifying weight, reps, rest, time under tension etc. But if you are changing exercises constantly, it can be difficult to know what weight or rep range will get the right results from that exercise since it’s not really comparable to another exercise.

It might be harder to track your progress, but progress will be made nevertheless.

Progress will _only_ be made with sufficient stimulus, and your body will rapidly adapt so the stimulus is not sufficient -- unless you do progressive overload (and ideally occasional deloads too)

You will progressively overload without tracking or thinking about it if you maintain a constant rate of perceived exertion.

I'm stronger than I was six months ago. Seems like a good thing. If that stops being true, I can adjust later.

Variety has also helped me do weightlifting without injuring myself. I hurt my back pretty badly doing back squats, probably because I was leaning forward too far, probably because I was overcompensating due to quad dominance. Because of an app like this website I was able to discover and try different squat variants that are helping me fill out the core and glute muscles I was lacking. Again, seems like a good thing.

>What’s wrong with a novice saying that?

Only real risk is people getting confused or frustrated as to why they're not making any progress. "Doing a bunch of stuff" is very different from training.

Progressive overload is the thing that needs drilled into the newbie's head. None of this is complicated, but doing a bunch of random stuff every time you enter the gym is a really good way to feel like your doing something all while accomplishing very little.

I've been lifting for almost a decade at this point. My philosophy on it boils down to: it's grueling, so... if you're going to do it, you should get the most bang for your buck. That said, changing up the routine in a structured manner is definitely a good idea very once and awhile (if only to deload for a bit).

“Just picking a standard full-body workout routine” - that’s the issue, I have no idea what the names of standard routines are or where to find them. I’d love to know several. I know none.

Like many things, knowing the name or term of what you’re looking for is the gateway - without that you’re stuck floundering.

Starting strength is the most classic one: https://startingstrength.com/get-started/programs

Or you know, you could go into a couple of fitness forums and see which programs pop up again and again.

Please don't do SS as a beginner, unless you are sure lifting heavy is what you want and are positive you'll be able to get through setbacks.

Absolutely, read SS the book and apply its wisdom to corresponding lifts in the bodybuilding program you'll pick up instead. Then, once you are comfortable in the gym, slowly progress to add heavier lifts/sessions into your program. From there decide if you want to prioritize either.

The main problem with SS for me is that encourages you to push through extreme exhaustion, because weight resets are based on failure to complete reps, and completely ignore Rate of Perceived Exertion (RPE). I got a lot stronger on SS, but the last few weeks were killer and ended with injuries for me.

I would describe it differently, but I share your general take. The main weakness of SS is that once it gets heavy you really need professional feedback, because your form will begin to deteriorate. This will happen regardless of the program. Still, I wish SS was more clear about it—most beginners are not gonna film themselves and ask for form checks online, and ought to seek a coach irl.

RPE wouldn’t work either because beginners don’t know how to judge. Everyone who squats heavy knows that a huge part of getting good at it is learning how to keep pushing safely, even as the lift becomes more and more psychologically challenging.

It is overwhelming your work capacity that really leads to injuries. Form doesn't matter for that.

I agree in general, but not for beginners. If you’re some college kid whose idea of form comes from books and YouTube, odds are you’re doing something so wrong that you’ll tweak your back deadlifting or squatting long before you’re capable of overwhelming your work capacity.

starting strength was designed by a high school football coach who was trying to make high school athletes stronger. its a terrible framework for the average joe who wants to look better with their shirt off.

see https://stronglifts.com/, reasonable program/philosophy to abide by - i came across it on here on hn, if i recall correctly

You can figure out the basics in a couple of hours of reading. You don't need to process it all at once. I started lifting with some dumbbells I found on the street and just practiced moving them around slowly with light weights attached while figuring out which muscles different movements activated, then searched for simple terms like 'dumbbell shoulder exercises'.

Absolute waste of time unless you are able to do dragon flags and hold a horse stance for more than a minute. People's hips and core are jelly and you are suggesting they start lifting weights?

GP was asking about terminology, most of your other assumptions are also wrong.

Here's one that I came up with. Little science, but it's worked wonders on me.

Simply do 5 sets of 5 reps of the following exercises in groups. Do 2-3x per week as your schedule allows. You can super set the push/pull exercise, but not the leg. Take no less than 1 minute rest between the PP supersets, or the leg sets.

1. Bench press , Row, Squat

2. Overhead press, Pull up (weighted if need be), Deadlift

3. Bicep curl, Tricep press, calves

4. Abs, core, or lower back (1x per week)

Other details

- if the workout takes longer than you have time for, you can break up the 1-4 across more days (eg lift 4 or 6 days a week with pattern of 1&3, 2&4, 1&3, 2&4 (1&3, 2&4)

- add some weight every workout, even if it's the minimum 2.5 plates, or buy 1.25 micro plates to bring to the gym - once you are unable to add weight every workout, start to try and add weight every week - Every 12 weeks take a 1 week deload where you do 3x 10 reps of the above with about 50% of what you can actually lift

If you're a "hard gainer" continue with the above and for a 12 week block try the following tactics.

1. Eat a costco rotisserie chicken each day (or equivalent calories + grams of protein in any other food)

2. Add a Liter, Half Gallon, or Gallon of milk (progressively experiment starting small), Or equivalent calories and grams of protein

If you follow the above consistently for a year or two you will be ahead of something like 95% of gym goers. You might be behind optimal, but you'll be way ahead of most people.

It's mostly BS. I followed one of the ones reddit swore by and got big legs but relatively smaller upper body. That might mean strength but it wasn't a good physique which is why most people workout.

check out fitness progress posts and you'll see some great looking bodies. the comments will be like "which routine pls" and the answer will be "huh? I just go to the gym consistently"

>would be better served just picking a standard full-body workout routine (e.g. GZCLP)

But many people aren't going to follow those routines. It's my impression that deadlifts and squats aren't good exercises for this use case because of the danger they present.

Sure, they might be "completely safe" when "done correctly", but somebody using an app and trying to mimic exercises they see in videos or pictures is only guessing at whether they do the exercises correctly. To build muscle you need progressive overload, but that also means that "doing the exercises correctly" gets even more difficult. With most other lifts it's not that big of a deal, but with squats and deadlifts the weights get really high. A dropped barbell with squat weights can easily lead to injury. Hell, it can lead to injury when it's even just lifted the wrong way.

And when you remove those two lifts then a lot of 'standard full body workout' regimes don't work anymore.

As humans we squat and dead lift all day. Every single person should learn how to do those two movements with some proficiency and intention. They should be part of basis of any weight program focused on health and longevity.

And while progressive overload is needed, no one is going from the bar to massive weight overnight. Also, not everyone needs to have the goal of being a power lifter. Peter Attia talks about wanting his older clients to be able to a 45lb kettlebell squat, the average weight of a toddler grandkid for example.

Not with weight on their back. You should seek professional advice for weight training. I learned that trainers don't even let people touch a bar for a year as they repair and strengthen their core. It's all body weight and PVC pipes to develop form.

> Not with weight on their back.

Yeah, people do worse in real life. They pick up stuff of varying weights all the time at odd angles.

I would say that weights that approach lifting levels are rare. Most stuff that weights a lot becomes too unwieldy to lift. Anything above that tends to be something you carry with multiple people.

Also, I would say that your grip is going to be a bigger liability in those situations.

if your trainers aren't letting you touch weights for a year you need better trainers. form is important but perfect is the enemy of good enough. if you try and be absolutely perfect before progressing at all you'll never move an inch.

These threads are always insane. You can pick up a bar the first day you step into a gym. The body is an adaptation machine. Apply stress. Adapt. Repeat.

A trainer spending a year "strengthening your core" is called theft.

Unless you are elderly or disabled in some kind of way, if you can't survive putting a bar on your back and squatting, you are a weak (physically) human. I'm not joking.

I'm a man and know more about mens standards, but if you can't back squat at least 1x your bodyweight you are probably pretty weak. Similar for deadlift. And these are just bare minimums. Most humans are FAR more capable than this. Maybe just multiply these by 0.5 for a women just based on genetic strength differences.

You can start with the bar if you want, you will eventually learn through experience based on your body your form for squatting. And the internet as well as being able to record yourself are readily available for practically everyone. Given that you can definitely learn the basics of form without necessary needing a trainer.

Not trying to argue with you, but that sounds more like a rehab programme than a programme designed for someone who is fully able and just wants to start resistance training. The bar is generally a fine starting point for most people but smaller dumbbells could also be used if the bar was too heavy. Also, you should be squatting in a cage with safeties, which mitigates a lot of the risk when squatting. It absolutely should not take a healthy abled person a year to start squatting 20kg.

That specific suggested program is a 5x3 with 85% effort. People following it will be lifting considerable percentage of their body weight very quickly. Without proper muscle control, joint conditioning, knowledge of how to deal with minor injuries etc. Good program with a trainer, ok for a highly motivated individual with strength goals, terrible for an average beginner.

>People following it will be lifting considerable percentage of their body weight very quickly.

That's what we call a benefit. The reason those people are suddenly lifting their body weight? They've gotten stronger! Deadlift from day 1, people. Your back will thank you. If you're worried about it, ask someone to check your form at the gym (most people are friendly!), or just post it online (I did this when I first started lifting).

Being able to bend over and pick something heavy up off the ground is a pretty fundamentally important human movement.

Post proof that deadlifts and squats present unique danger.

Compare a barbell squat to a bodyweight pistol squat. What does a beginner hitting failure look like with either? For the pistol squat you can’t get up and just maybe fall over 1 foot onto your yoga mat, or just use your other leg to balance and stand. The barbell back squat failure is absolutely ugly in comparison. You are down and can’t get up, maybe you try and push anyway with your back vs legs, thats a lot of weight supported by an out of form spine now, ooff. Knowing how and when to safely bail and drop weight out of an olympic lift is not something any beginner would just naturally know to do.

This is why there is such a thing as a power rack/squat rack. You can fail completely safely with this equipment.

If you are an olympic lifter, almost everyone is taught how to bail these lifts from the beginning with the empty bar. Most people aren't and lift in racks built just to be able to safely lift heavy. Its on you if you don't actually set up the safety bars for yourself.

Failing safely in a squat rack means you know how to bail from the weight in a way to not further injure yourself. Thats not immediately obvious, like learning to fall in other sports. I know people who were in athletics, using the school squat rack with a coach, and still ended up with injuries. Not everyone sees an olympic lifting coach before trying olympic lifts at the gym, probably a very small percentage actually do.

Any way that you fall, the pins will catch the bar before it lands on you. Failing safely, for the most part, only requires knowing how to set up the rack and safety pins properly.

Even barring that, the injury rate in squatting is quite low compared to most other sports and athletic activities of similar intensity.

The injury rate for powerlifting (sport that does squat + deadlift + bench press) is extremely low, and those who do that as a sport are probably lifting way, way more than almost everyone reading these comments ever will.

Building muscle happens in the kitchen more than the gym. For stuff like squats, I agree a barbell squat for beginners is just to aggressive. Holding the bar alone is just uncomfortable until you develop significant back muscles to hold it off your spine. Theres plenty of squat variations though that don’t require moving a disk slipping amount of weight to get a good burn in your legs.

100% with you. A few full body lifts + cardio is what most people need.

This might be useful for physical therapists or body builders though.

The amount of horrible, dumb fitness advice on here is almost surprising.

"Post bod"

I disagree with you. Its over 10 years ago I medaled in an national powerlifting competition. Nowadays I just want to lift some weights, and have no intention of following a set program ad I have no end goals other than to keep healthy and fit. I'm pretty sure im not the only one who likes some variation without going full crossfit.

But you're not a novice, you clearly know what you're doing. I'm saying that somebody who's just starting out and doesn't know how to do a proper squat shouldn't be tinkering with their sets too much.