News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by sriram_malhar on Friday April 28, 2023 @02:47AM (#35738249)
My MIL is 93, and the only tech she can really deal with is turning on the radio and TV and changing channels.

She is fond of music from old classics (from the 60's and earlier), so I hooked up a Raspberry PI with an FM transmitter and created her own private radio station. She tells me what songs she likes and I create different playlists that get broadcast on her station. It preserves the surprise element of radio, and there is nothing in there she doesn't like.

The tiny FM transmitter is surprisingly powerful. Her neighbours (of similar vintage) are very happy too, so their requests have also started coming in :)

EDIT: I wanted to add that I am the UI ... she doesn't get to choose the playlist. To make my life easier, I just created different playlists for different times of the day ... calm/spiritual/slower numbers in the early and late hours, peppy during the late morning and evening etc.

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by sandreas on Friday April 28, 2023 @03:39AM (#35738587)
* * *
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by nsteel on Friday April 28, 2023 @06:01AM (#35739380)
Phoniebox is a great project, based on mpd and Mopidy. Hopefully Spotify playback will be fully supported again soon.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by dicknuckle on Friday April 28, 2023 @10:19AM (#35741564)
I am absolutely LOVING Volumio. It's running in a VM in my garage computer that does various other things. At the time, Volumio didn't have a clean way to do this so I just hacked away until it booted and played music.

A little USB sound card is passed through to the VM and it's been rock solid for about 2 years now. I use it exclusively as a Spotify chromecast type thing that cost me about $3.50 in parts.

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by runjake on Friday April 28, 2023 @12:47PM (#35743841)
Any clue how powerful the "one IO pin" approach is compared to a dedicated FM transmitter?
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by svnt on Friday April 28, 2023 @01:03PM (#35744063)
A standard 3.3V GPIO can typically push something like 30 to 60 mW. You won’t get all of that as transmitted signal — it will depend on how well your random antenna wire matches the impedance of the gpio and the frequency. I’m really not sure the audio quality is going to be anything more than just intelligible, but I’d guess you’d get at least 10 mW or so of useful power, which means it should generally work within a small house.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by sandreas on Friday April 28, 2023 @12:51PM (#35743887)
No, I'm using this in my car just for a very short range (< 200mm)
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by myself248 on Friday April 28, 2023 @04:32PM (#35746742)
You should know this is heinously irresponsible and very illegal unless you apply proper filtering. Bashing the GPIO pin adds a ton of harmonics that fall outside the broadcast band, up into aircraft and military and who-knows-what other frequencies.

The README goes over this, but if people keep blindly ignoring it, expect regulators to figure out a way to make our lives a lot less fun.

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by stavros on Friday April 28, 2023 @08:18PM (#35748734)
This has a range of around ten feet, so I think people are fine to tinker a bit.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by myself248 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @11:08AM (#35753605)
Unfortunately that's not that simple. Your observation may well be the case, but that has nothing to do with whether it's going to interfere with someone else. Here's why:

(tl;dr: The output of these "transmitters" contains spurs you're not equipped to detect but which can indeed be problematic for others. Transmitters are regulated for sound physical reasons, some which are enumerated here.)

The range at which your FM receiver can pick up an FM signal may indeed be ten feet, but that's a product of the transmitter power, the transmit antenna gain, the path loss, the receive antenna gain, and the receiver sensitivity. To infer anything about one of those parameters (for this discussion, the transmit power), you have to know the other four, and you don't. (And neither do I. Even the measurements I'm equipped to make require a lot of assumptions and have significant uncertainty.)

Secondly, FM (radio folks would call this wide-FM) is particularly power-hungry because it occupies a relatively wide swath of bandwidth. Typically limited to 75kHz and in practice somewhere around 50 for analog stereo or just shy of 60 with RDS (which pifmrds can do). For example, a 104.3MHz station is actually transmitting anywhere between 104.225 and 104.375 at any given instant. This means that the receiver has to demodulate the carrier which may be varying all over that range, and it requires a fairly strong signal to do that. If the FM receiver loses lock, it doesn't mean the signal doesn't exist, merely that it's below the receiver's sensitivity.

Other spectrum users, like radar for example, may be dramatically more sensitive, and pick up a signal of the same strength many miles away. A mode that occupies less spectrum generally requires less power. They may also have better antennas (radar dishes tend to be tightly focused, that's the whole point), better receivers (local self-noise can be minimized through careful-but-costly engineering), et cetera.

They may also be above you, so while you see the signal disappearing as soon as you get on the other side of some hedges, there's no foliage between you and an airplane.

So while _for you_, the effective range may be ten feet, but for someone else, the signal may be a problem dozens of miles away.

Furthermore, and the whole point here, is that you're not just interfering with other users in the 88-108MHz FM broadcast band. (If you were, frankly, I wouldn't care one bit; there's little actual harm to be done.) It's that as a digital pin being bashed up and down at those frequencies, the resulting signal is profoundly not sinusoidal. It has much faster rising and falling edges, which mean the signal has plenty of energy in harmonics, not just the fundamental frequency of the carrier. My spectrum analyzer only goes to 2.7GHz and I was able to see (admittedly diminishing) energy up beyond 1GHz, which is both impressive in that the BCM chip's GPIOs can slew that fast, and terrible in that you're interfering with _everyone_ when you do it.

So, say you've told pifm to transmit at 88MHz, right at the bottom of the broadcast band where off-the-shelf receivers can pick it up. Your little Pi and random-wire antenna are also producing quite a bit of energy at 176Mhz (maritime VHF ship-to-shore and stuff), 264MHz (military air-band, adjacent to a satellite-earth-station band), 352MHz (more military), 440MHz (amateur UHF), etc. All the way up.

This may be counterintuitive, but that's why radio is governed by regulations rather than YOLO, and why even unlicensed toy transmitters still have to comply with harmonic-content rules.

Filter your Pi to knock out all those harmonics, and the odds of the Coast Guard or Air Force knocking on your door will plummet.

(Also, I've measured the power coming out of one of these things, and if you can only pick it up ten feet away, either your antenna is total crap, your receiver is deaf as a post, or both. Even after applying proper filtering which eats some power, I was able to receive mine on a pocket radio out to about 200 feet, which surprised the heck out of me and I added lots more attenuation until my most sensitive receiver could no longer see it at the property line. It's a fantastic toy for exercising RDS/RBDS receiver and parser code, but it requires a little care and knowledge to use it responsibly.)

Anyone can learn this stuff, and everyone should, especially if they're going to put it on the air.

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by quaintdev on Friday April 28, 2023 @03:37AM (#35738575)
OP seems from India an AFAIK its illegal to transmit on FM frequencies without a license. I understand it might be low powered but theres a chance of Police coming knocking on the door. Whats worse is it might interfere with emergency services. There is a reason we have spoctrum licences.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by sriram_malhar on Friday April 28, 2023 @03:44AM (#35738616)
I know. It is illegal in most parts of the world. I'm taking over a commercial FM channel that my MIL won't listen to, and the transmitter has about a 20m radius.

If the police come, I'll use the Constanza "Was that wrong?" defence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RvNS7JfcMM

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by jacquesm on Friday April 28, 2023 @04:29AM (#35738893)
I hope they don't know how to use Google and if they do that that is a pseudonym you're posting under here or you might be in bigger trouble than you started with ;)

Anyway, cool to see you hack this, maybe try to tweak the power levels a bit so the neighbors don't have a reason to talk about it.

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by ktzar on Friday April 28, 2023 @04:48AM (#35738980)
The FCC allows personal FM transmitters to operate with a maximum power output of 250 microvolts per meter at a distance of 3 meters. Other countries are more permissive, so this is not a problem. As long as you don't interfere with anyone and emit in a band that's not used in the area, it's perfectly fine.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by vonseel on Friday April 28, 2023 @05:18AM (#35739144)
I was curious what kind of range that might have, so I put what you said into chatgpt and asked what the range of a typical car or home stereo would be, and it gave me this (not sure if it's correct). FWIW, much less than 20 miles, haha.

-- The maximum power output of a personal FM transmitter allowed by the FCC is 250 microvolts per meter at a distance of 3 meters. The range of the transmitter depends on various factors such as terrain, obstructions, and interference.

Assuming ideal conditions, such as no obstructions or interference, the range of the transmitter can be calculated using the inverse square law. This law states that the strength of a signal decreases with the square of the distance from the source.

At a distance of 3 meters, the signal strength would be 250 microvolts per meter. At a distance of 6 meters, the signal strength would be 62.5 microvolts per meter (250/4). At a distance of 9 meters, the signal strength would be 27.8 microvolts per meter (250/9).

Typical car and household stereos have a sensitivity of about 2 microvolts per meter. Using this sensitivity value, we can calculate the range of the transmitter for these devices.

For a car stereo, the transmitter would have a range of about 26 meters (square root of 250/2). For a household stereo, the transmitter would have a range of about 63 meters (square root of 250/0.5).

However, in reality, the actual range of the transmitter may be shorter due to various factors such as interference and obstructions.

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by Nition on Friday April 28, 2023 @05:26AM (#35739179)
> FWIW, much less than 20 miles

For the record I'm sure OP meant his has a range of 20 metres

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by casmaxima on Friday April 28, 2023 @05:42AM (#35739276)
sbcl: (* (sqrt (/ 250 2)) 3) => 33.54 meters, the factor that amplifies distance is the square root of the factor of signal strength.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by srcreigh on Friday April 28, 2023 @05:26AM (#35739178)
Makes sense. I’ve seen Bluetooth fm dongles for cars to this effect. The dongle connects to your phone on Bluetooth and the old car can listen to your Spotify via the radio.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by Cypher on Friday April 28, 2023 @04:56AM (#35739020)
I'll tell them it was me to protect Spartacus.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by eastern on Friday April 28, 2023 @05:53AM (#35739337)
Yeah no one will bother with such a low-powered device. I used an in-car bluetooth-to-FM tranmitter bought from Amazon India for years. They've been sold openly since forever. Like this one: https://www.amazon.in/Portronics-AUTO-10-Bluetooth-Car/dp/B0...
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by JKCalhoun on Friday April 28, 2023 @09:04AM (#35740801)
Ha ha, I must have pulled up along side you the other day.

Just kidding, I'm in the U.S. But more than a few times I have suddenly got Mexican musical content on my radio in the car when passing close to another car.

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by rozab on Friday April 28, 2023 @04:43PM (#35746873)
I love these things, it's so simple and it's often a better UX than any car bluetooth provides. You also used to be able to buy aux adapters that went in your cassette deck!

edit: Halfords still stocks these! https://www.halfords.com/technology/mobile-phone-accessories...

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by mdip on Friday April 28, 2023 @08:08AM (#35740299)
... I've always been amazed how often "Was that wrong?" works.

I guess I shouldn't be. Even letting them know you were fully aware you were breaking the law, most people would see its intended purpose -- to bring a little peace and comfort to a very old woman -- and have their own compassion kick in.

YMMV but I'm guessing you'd hear something along the lines of "Oh,... well,... (shuffles feet) ... just turn it off, then". Many of us have elderly people in our lives we wish we could provide some comfort to and most of us know we're headed there (if we're lucky to live that long). You know, assuming your 20m radius FM transmitter didn't, say, cause some cataclysmic event/knock emergency services offline for several city blocks, etc.

Put another way, while some police actually will pull you over and write you a ticket for going a couple of miles (km) per hour over the speed limit, most won't waste the brain power/physical energy/thermal paper to bother enforcing it.

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by sriram_malhar on Friday April 28, 2023 @09:00AM (#35740750)
Well put. Exactly my thoughts. And given my MIL's attitude towards any visitor, the cops will be plied with food and chai till they burst. They will forget what they came for :)
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by lostlogin on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:04AM (#35750720)
> I've always been amazed how often "Was that wrong?" works.

This is in line with Peelian principles of policing. It was explained to me by a policeman and it was fascinating. He had worked in the UK, Australia and New Zealand.

In his view, Australia was considerably harsher in its policing and NZ was at the other end of the spectrum, UK in the middle.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by 300bps on Friday April 28, 2023 @08:55AM (#35740703)
I’ve had much better luck with 100% honesty. Just say you set up a 20m transmitter to improve the life of a 93 year old woman.

I bought a house in my very early 20s. Roommates of mine finished the third floor with no permits. Went to sell the house ten years later and the location it was in required a U&O inspection. My realtor told me to lie, apply for a permit and pretend I just did the work.

Instead I called the local building inspector and said, “Hello my name is xxx and I’m calling to confess.” He cracked up laughing, came to the house immediately to look at everything and told me I was fine.

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by jacquesm on Friday April 28, 2023 @04:24AM (#35738864)
Yes, technically it is illegal. But I've seen all kinds of gizmos that would inject a signal into the FM band to allow the use of car stereos that didn't have an 'aux' input. At those power levels the FCC isn't going to be bothered unless someone lodges a complaint, and even then they'll have a hard time finding the source unless they're practically standing on top of it. OP may want to turn down the radiated power until it just works for his MIL but no longer for the neighbors.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by jeswin on Friday April 28, 2023 @06:57AM (#35739716)
But quaintdev is right in that Indian Police for some reason takes this somewhat seriously. For highway patrol, I suspect it's boredom and this gives them something to chase. I remember in the late 90s when I was in college, the police showed up a couple of times when students were transmitting from one of the hostels. They'd let it go, but they did show up.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by jacquesm on Friday April 28, 2023 @07:07AM (#35739803)
At what levels of power was this?

I suspect the OPs transmitter is hard to detect even at close (< 100 meters > 30 meters) range. Anything more powerful and you would definitely attract attention.

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by mdip on Friday April 28, 2023 @08:29AM (#35740479)

  > Yes, *technically* it is illegal.
Oh how many phrases start "Yes, technically" in my life.

The law is an interesting beast. I know nothing about the law in India as it relates to FM band transmitters but I suspect that the law predates the common availability of adapters that one might use in ones car to add an input to a stereo that lacks such a highly technical circular hole for such purposes[0]. Once these devices gained wide adoption due to both their utility and -- more generally -- the fact that operating one is usually so benign that they can be difficult to discover let alone actually cause enough interference to warrant them to be seized.

The intention of the law was to prevent someone from operating a pirate radio station/give exclusivity to a single license-holder for that frequency. Since these devices don't violate the spirit of the law, the governing body finds it easier to carve out an informal exemption rather than explicitly write one in. It can also be tricky to correct a law that has a very valid reason for existing but may have cases where total enforcement isn't realistic[1].

The law may not have caught up to the reality on the ground and the legislatures answer to it is "enforce it when the interference is enough that someone notices." One might imagine a world where something akin to TV Detector-like Vans[2] drape the country-side in a dragnet to catch all of those pirate FM-input-devices but that usually only happens if there's a substantial amount of tax revenue to be gained ... to pay for the vans.

[0] I had one of these in the 90s (in the US, where it's not illegal if designed correctly) that connected my Discman to my ridiculously sad factory radio which lacked both external input and even a cassette deck.

[1] I do very little with regard to radio communication (if that isn't obvious) but I'd imagine most lawmakers do even less, so now you have to bring in experts to figure out "what's an acceptable amount of interference in this specific use case" and "how should a device like this be restricted." Not that government isn't famous for wildly wasting money or anything but I'd imagine the thinking is that it's not worth the effort to correct.

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_detector_van

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by mindcrime on Friday April 28, 2023 @11:25AM (#35742388)
[0] I had one of these in the 90s (in the US, where it's not illegal if designed correctly) that connected my Discman to my ridiculously sad factory radio which lacked both external input and even a cassette deck.

Heh. I drive a 2002 Chevy Suburban (don't laugh, I have a strong aversion to spending money on new vehicles) and it lacks an AUX input, so to this day I use one of those low-power FM transmitter adapters to pipe my phone's audio output to the vehicle stereo. They are amazingly handy little gadgets.

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by jonatron on Friday April 28, 2023 @11:37AM (#35742584)
When I had a cassette deck in my car, I added an AUX input by soldering a cable to a chip on the PCB, and running it out through the cassette slot.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by schwartzworld on Friday April 28, 2023 @04:05PM (#35746409)
That's a product they sell. It looks like an audio cassette with an aux cord coming out of it. I used one for years in my old grand Marquis.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by jacquesm on Friday April 28, 2023 @04:37PM (#35746806)
That just wires the speaker output of the device to a set of coils sitting right in front of the tape playback head. GP did an end run around that by wiring straight into the trace in between the head pre-amp and the main amp.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by maxerickson on Friday April 28, 2023 @08:43AM (#35740585)
Technically, it's perfectly legal under FCC regulations.

https://www.fcc.gov/media/radio/low-power-radio-general-info...

Looks like India doesn't permit it, but is looking at doing so (at least, for some purposes):

https://trai.gov.in/notifications/press-release/trai-release...

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by exitb on Friday April 28, 2023 @04:35AM (#35738922)
It is Hacker News after all. And that's probably like jaywalking of RF violations. I'd be more afraid of the copyright people.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by acatton on Friday April 28, 2023 @04:56AM (#35739021)
Where I live, this is absolutely not the jaywalking of RF violations. In Germany, if it is proven that your signal was potentially interfering with emergency services, you will be liable for any damage to victims in civil courts. And if somebody dies in your area because the emergency services couldn't get there on time, you will be criminally charged for "negligent manslaughter."

I wouldn't play at all with non-approved RF frequencies personally.

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by hasseldahoff on Friday April 28, 2023 @06:00AM (#35739373)
Thanks for your opinion, but you’re German. You people are obsessed with rules. Thank god you lost the last big war.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by sigg3 on Friday April 28, 2023 @06:22AM (#35739486)
No need to be rude.

As someone who's worked in telecom for a number of years, the fines for broadcasting I've seen issued to individuals are insane. Not just radio but wireless amplification too. Different European country though.

Always check the legislation in the country of operation. Emergency frequencies are held sacred by the powers that be.

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by 6510 on Friday April 28, 2023 @06:32AM (#35739549)
like the Indians said, you want to buy the sky too?
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by detaro on Friday April 28, 2023 @06:52AM (#35739669)
In Germany (like afaik all the EU), you can also freely buy and use small low-power FM transmitters for exactly the use case of sending your own music to radios...
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by RobotToaster on Friday April 28, 2023 @07:04AM (#35739770)
If a low power FM transmitter on commercial frequencies can interfere with your emergency services, you may have bigger problems. IIRC they have their own specific frequencies.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by Glemotooo on Friday April 28, 2023 @07:44AM (#35740095)
"RF violations"

In germany its also legal to use plenty of bands in the RF Spectrcum with up to 750Watts (and potential more).

We are also allowed to do CB Funk in Channels 1-40 without anything and up to 80/85 (forgot details) when you register with Germany.

So your statement reads more like you are not allowed to do anything in germany. Its hard to believe to disturb stable systems just because someone is doing a little bit of FM on some known frequencies.

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by moooo99 on Friday April 28, 2023 @08:46AM (#35740631)
It literally took a single google search to find out that you’re wrong.

FM transmitting for private use is completely legal for UKW frequencies between 87.5 and 105 MHz and transmission powers lower than 50nW [1]. You can buy perfectly FM transmitters for your car, etch

[1] (German) https://www.autozeitung.de/fm-transmitter-bluetooth-nachrues...

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by mometsi on Friday April 28, 2023 @01:44PM (#35744631)
What would happen if you delayed an ambulance responding to an emergency by jaywalking in front of it? Could you be charged if someone died as a result?
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by TobTobXX on Saturday April 29, 2023 @08:02AM (#35752132)
In Switzerland they can (and often will) at least fine you if you neglect to dirve to the side when encountering traffic on a highway (to form a "Rettungsgasse"[0]) to allow emergency cars to pass in the middle.

[0]: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rettungsgasse?wprov=sfla1

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by hammyhavoc on Friday April 28, 2023 @07:51PM (#35748577)
In the UK, if you break the law, they'll confiscate anything physically wired to it, computer included.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by Mistletoe on Friday April 28, 2023 @04:38AM (#35738934)
If we ever have a world apocalypse and I’m alone, I know I can at least conjure one companion by suggesting I would use spectrum without a license and a ham enthusiast will appear.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by implements on Friday April 28, 2023 @05:01AM (#35739046)
<Dusts off Ham Licence> Anyone can use amateur frequencies in a genuine “no other communication options available” emergency, if I remember the regulations correctly.

Edit: “§ 97.403 Safety of life and protection of property. No provision of these rules prevents the use by an amateur station of any means of radio communication at its disposal to provide essential communication needs in connection with the immediate safety of human life and immediate protection of property when normal communication systems are not available.”

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by _thisdot on Friday April 28, 2023 @05:17AM (#35739137)
Worth noting that there already exists a product in the Indian market by a big music label that addresses this exact issue. I’ve bought my grandfather one of those and he’s very happy with it!
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by sriram_malhar on Friday April 28, 2023 @07:26AM (#35739946)
Do you mean the saregama Caravaan? If so, I bought her one of those and it just didn't cut the mustard.

The built-in collection either didn't have songs that she liked (from the '40s), or they weren't clustered together, or were mixed up with other songs.

I could load a flash disk with her playlist to plug into that player, but it wouldn't know what to play at what time (calm songs in the early and late hours, peppier numbers on other days, festival specific numbers on some days). This was a big deal. I can even change the playlist from elsewhere (a script automatically mirrors the playlist that I maintain on a server)

Bluetooth streaming is possible with the device, but not an option for my MIL ... that would require her to learn to use a cellphone.

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by gilbetron on Friday April 28, 2023 @08:44AM (#35740605)
Illegal in India maybe. In the US: "In the United States, Part 15 of the U.S. Federal Communications Commission rules specifies that no license is needed if range of the transmitter does not exceed 200 feet (61 meters), although the Part 15 rules specify that the field strength should not exceed 250 µV/m (48db) at 3 meters"

I haven't found the exact law in India, but looks like maybe it's legal for personal usage of FM provided power of transmitter is under 500 mW?

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by getwiththeprog on Friday April 28, 2023 @08:58AM (#35740729)
Post a reference to the legislation or its not real
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by cptaj on Friday April 28, 2023 @09:03AM (#35740791)
Its not that limited. Check out fm transmitters on amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=fm+transmitter&ref=nb_sb_noss

This is what he means, not some bigger pirate radio situation

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by NelsonMinar on Friday April 28, 2023 @09:43AM (#35741192)
Killjoy.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by whinvik on Saturday April 29, 2023 @05:13AM (#35751369)
I don't know if you are from India but our laws are so complicated that I am sure every moment we are breaking one or the other. If we constantly worried about which ones we are breaking we would never get anything done!
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by jay3ss on Friday April 28, 2023 @03:33AM (#35738542)
I love it. Not only is this wholesome, it's pretty cool too
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by neodypsis on Friday April 28, 2023 @03:08AM (#35738393)
Very cool. Do you connect it to Spotify or to an MP3 collection?
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by sriram_malhar on Friday April 28, 2023 @03:28AM (#35738518)
From my MP3 collection. I buy the songs or albums she likes and broadcast them. For some that are not on sale anywhere, I scrape them off youtube, but usually send a note to that channel for original sources where I can pay for it.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by neodypsis on Friday April 28, 2023 @03:35AM (#35738563)
Cool! I asked because there are many niche playlists on Spotify you can find for oldies, for example some very specific for the 60s, 50s, 40s, etc. Perhaps it could help her discover similar, but new, music.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by tipsysquid on Friday April 28, 2023 @02:57AM (#35738315)
I love this for her and for me. Best gift you can give to a music lover
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by LeoPanthera on Friday April 28, 2023 @03:14AM (#35738432)
What transmitter did you use?
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by sriram_malhar on Friday April 28, 2023 @03:32AM (#35738533)
I forget. But just search for "kit FM transmitter". I'd fully intended to build a "proper" transmitter, and was keenly disappointed that you could just buy a cheap single-chip board.

Nowadays you don't even need that. You can turn the RPi itself into an FM transmitter. Search "how to FM broadcast on raspberry pi"

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by idonotknowwhy on Friday April 28, 2023 @03:51AM (#35738657)
You do still need that. The broadcast from gpio thing is very low quality and produces square waves which interfere with everything
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by hcrean on Friday April 28, 2023 @08:53AM (#35740687)
Pico caps and appropriate impedance miss-match can be used to round-off square waves.

But yes, if you look at high-speed Pi GPIO with a Rigol it looks more like an EKG readout than the thing you might see on a logic analyser. Smoothing it enough to feed a line-amp is very lossy.

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by megous on Friday April 28, 2023 @10:01AM (#35741360)
You might want to improve your probing technique, then. :)

GPIO's usually looks quite squarey if you don't introduce parasitic reactances into the circuit with your test setup.

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by hcrean on Friday April 28, 2023 @03:41PM (#35746144)
Pi for audio frequencies is lovely and square, Pi at radio frequencies has distinct rise and fall and "just taking a moment to think about it" segments.

A spectrum analyser has probes!?!? This might be where I am going wrong... But the bench scope is largely in agreement about the distinct phases of a cycle at RF freq.

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by ale42 on Friday April 28, 2023 @03:58AM (#35738695)
> You can turn the RPi itself into an FM transmitter.

Never tried it, but given the way it works, you definitely need some output filtering unless you accept to pollute all harmonics of your channel (which might be licensed spectrum too, and interfere with services you don't want to interfere with in the first point)

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by john_shafthair on Friday April 28, 2023 @09:52AM (#35741273)
One can go on Amazon and order himself a high powered FM transmitter direct from China. Stick an antenna in the attic and you'll be heard for miles. If you don't gaf about spurious emissions or laws or anything like that you too can be Christian Slater in Pump Up the Volume. The fines for this in the US can be pretty severe but Amazon is happy to sell you the rope to hang yourself with free shipping.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by davchana on Friday April 28, 2023 @02:54AM (#35738302)
Would love to see a blog about this setup. I, not old, always want to dump much of my music & simply want to listen whatever is next (& miss it if I don't listen) just like radio.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by ecliptik on Friday April 28, 2023 @04:07AM (#35738746)
Have you seen Icecast [1]? You create playlists of local music, then play them with something like mpd. Icecast then streams them out and clients like VLC, xmms2, and even older versions of Winamp can stream it.

I set this up for all my music in shuffle mode for my own radio-like always on streaming service via Tailscale.

1. https://icecast.org/faq/

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by lloydatkinson on Friday April 28, 2023 @04:35AM (#35738924)
I’ve wanted to try something like this with a Pi or something else running Linux. Is mpd a good choice for that scenario? Does it support being able to use custom events eg a button on the gpio for play/pause?
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by nsteel on Friday April 28, 2023 @07:17AM (#35739874)
mpd is a great choice, there are lots of things built around it. Essentially, you'd have the GPIOs trigger mpc commands. mpc talks MPD over the network back to the mpd server, so you could have physical controls all around the place.

There are lots of examples online of people doing this sort of thing. There's a simple example at https://github.com/pablodo/mpd_gpio/blob/master/main.py

Even a chapter of a book about it: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4842-2406-9_... (I just found this, no idea if it's any good).

And also an IR version at https://www.ziemski.net/rcmpd/

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by zimpenfish on Friday April 28, 2023 @04:05AM (#35738736)
For the true feeling of radio, you might throw some episodes of The Big Broadcast on there as well - I believe archive.org has some but they're easily findable elsewhere. Donate some money to WFUV[1] or buy some of the collections[2] if you just want the music.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WFUV

[2] https://rivermontrecords.com/search?type=product&q=big+broad...

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by JKCalhoun on Friday April 28, 2023 @09:01AM (#35740759)
Like this site: https://oldtime.radio
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by mysterydip on Friday April 28, 2023 @10:29AM (#35741692)
Thanks for the link! I've enjoyed radio classics on satellite radio, so having an on-demand for specific genres is a welcome option.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by lapser on Friday April 28, 2023 @06:48AM (#35739651)
> The tiny FM transmitter is surprisingly powerful. Her neighbours (of similar vintage) are very happy too, so their requests have also started coming in :)

Sounds like you're about to start a Radio station for the nation.

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by fendy3002 on Friday April 28, 2023 @09:36AM (#35741117)
Or it'll be enough only for local area. We don't need everything to be nation-scale, local-community activities need to be promoted more.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by MikeTheGreat on Friday April 28, 2023 @09:37AM (#35741134)
Based on how you're asking I assuming that "Radio station for the nation" is a quote from a movie or something, but searching for it reveals surprisingly little (and is surprisingly random - Google / Bing clearly has _no_ idea what I'm looking for :) )

Is this a quote / reference to something? If so, could you let us all in on what it's referring to?

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by burritofanatic on Friday April 28, 2023 @09:54AM (#35741291)
All I could think of was the song Radio, Radio. See the line about cleaning up the nation.

https://genius.com/Elvis-costello-radio-radio-lyrics

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by lapser on Saturday April 29, 2023 @09:08AM (#35752538)
Sorry, no dice. It isn't, at least not intentionally.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by MikeTheGreat on Monday May 08, 2023 @12:36PM (#35863681)
No worries! Thanks for replying, though - thinking "there _must_ be a quote, I just don't know it / can't find it" woulda bugged me :)
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by mihaaly on Friday April 28, 2023 @07:05AM (#35739777)
: ))
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by martinjacobd on Friday April 28, 2023 @08:36AM (#35740536)
This made my day, thank you for sharing. Such a sweet thing to do.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by phkahler on Friday April 28, 2023 @08:57AM (#35740720)
I love how this requires ZERO learning effort on her part, she simply has a personalized ratio station rather than whatever someone else puts on.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by cptaj on Friday April 28, 2023 @09:02AM (#35740766)
This is exactly the type of shit I see benevolent AGI doing for us
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by hammyhavoc on Friday April 28, 2023 @09:10AM (#35740864)
I'm not convinced the costs would make that a viable use of resources versus just making an appropriate product, or using something that already exists like Spotify playlists. Even an LLM is expensive to keep running.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by smirth on Friday April 28, 2023 @10:05AM (#35741414)
Why would you keep one running. You don’t need to run an LLM except perhaps to rotate the playlists. First time it might help setup the code. Even making requests can be done by simply queries. Pennies at most for a few thousand tokens every now and then.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by hammyhavoc on Friday April 28, 2023 @10:24AM (#35741624)
Why would you need one whatsoever? If someone has already done the work as in the op, why not just cut out the hypothetical "benevolent AGI" and utilize the existing source code?

You're invoking LLMs, but "benevolent AGI" was what got invoked originally. Don't conflate a hypothetical AGI with an existing LLM. Anything of the scale required to create a hypothetical AGI is going to be expensive. Period.

Is grandma really going to use a hypothetical AGI any better than she's able to use Spotify? Come on.

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by b33j0r on Friday April 28, 2023 @10:13AM (#35741485)
Hear me out. We can bootstrap these costs by mining crypto! We’ll use the waste heat from that to power the AI’s, with 110% carnot efficiency.

Unfortunately, the physics of this work out so that every playlist generated is composed of Nickelback and “Sweet Caroline” covers.

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by birdyrooster on Friday April 28, 2023 @10:52AM (#35741985)
Nickleback is a fundamental concept of physics, you will always see echoes of it in any work you do. One way to be sure is to snap a picture, look at this photograph and every time it will make you laugh.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by b33j0r on Friday April 28, 2023 @12:02PM (#35743102)
I have often wondered if Chad is the actual source of dark matter:

1. Never made it as a poor man

2. Never made it as a blind man stealing

3. This is how I remind you, that I’m really MOND.

Sometimes the answer is just staring you in the face. A Canadian face, that should have been from San Antonio, TX.

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by bbarnett on Friday April 28, 2023 @11:35AM (#35742546)
Even an LLM is expensive to keep running.

In a decade, it'll cost pennies a year.

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by DougMerritt on Friday April 28, 2023 @11:46AM (#35742777)
I definitely agree, specifically because of software improvements (not because Moore's Law will make it that cheap).

Conversely, it wouldn't make a lot of sense to predict that it will always be as expensive as it is today.

Well, I guess "pennies" is a radical prediction. Cheap, anyway.

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by hammyhavoc on Friday April 28, 2023 @12:12PM (#35743277)
But we aren't there yet, and grandma is going to be dead in a decade, and the source code for the radio playlist gimmick already exists, as does Spotify.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by jacobr1 on Friday April 28, 2023 @12:27PM (#35743561)
Isn't it already relatively cheap to run? Training is costly, but there are examples of running LLaMA on your laptop. It doesn't seem like it will take decades to commoditize this stuff ... it is just the cutting edge might keep moving ahead.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by hammyhavoc on Friday April 28, 2023 @01:04PM (#35744090)
Not relative to a permanent and much more simplistic solution that already exists in the form of the source code for the original radio project mentioned in the op.

I'll give you an example: fabricating an ASIC is expensive. Using FPGAs is cheaper if the potential sales are low, but they're less performant.

If a hypothetical AGI a decade from now can do the radio gimmick, but it incurs an ongoing cost, but it's going to have wide appeal, it makes more sense to make a simple utility.

Better yet, the simple utility already exists and doesn't need a hypothetical "benevolent AGI". It doesn't even need an LLM. It's here today.

This entire sub-thread went off at a tangent of trying to shoehorn AI into somewhere it has no place being, just like the fetishizing of blockchain and attempting to shoehorn it into everywhere a database would be cheaper, more flexible and more performant.

A hypothetical "benevolent AGI" is going to be incredibly larger in scale than an LLM, thus much more expensive. You won't be running one on a laptop. We may not even have enough compute globally for a hypothetical "benevolent AGI".

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by LetsGetTechnicl on Friday April 28, 2023 @10:57AM (#35742060)
Yeah why not? Just replace the thoughtfulness of creating something for a loved one and the human ingenuity to do it (however simple) with an AI. I do not yearn for a future where everything is replaced by AI.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by yamtaddle on Friday April 28, 2023 @11:53AM (#35742926)
I'm not sure how much overlap there is between the "everyone's just a consumer these days! That's awful, they should be creators!" set of posters, and the "needing fewer people to do anything at all is always a good thing, bring on the glorious AI future!" set, but I suspect it's at least non-zero and I find that rather confusing.

Yes, let's make it so anything short of world-class creative talent (if that, even, if "AI" keeps advancing) is something that's of no monetary or social value, then wonder why people don't spend more time creating stuff. You're not motivated to play violin in your bedroom for nobody, or make paintings to hang in your own closet because nobody wants them? Or, there's no need for you to build this kind of great thing for your elderly relative because an AGI can do it instead? And now you're a couch potato struggling with depression and wondering what the point of living even is? Quelle surprise!

It's as if solipsistic intrinsic motivation is shit compared to having others want or need what you can do for them, and like maybe we need the latter in order to be healthy. But no, let's race toward further reducing our value to others as fast as we can, what could go wrong?

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by mcbits on Friday April 28, 2023 @12:57PM (#35743972)
> Or, there's no need for you to build this kind of great thing for your elderly relative because an AGI can do it instead?

Just like there is no need to design and build the FM transmitter from scratch because [factory] can do it instead. Some of us still think it's fun to build things like that as a hobby, but those who don't can still have an FM transmitter to start with and create something more exciting from there.

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by amalcon on Friday April 28, 2023 @11:18AM (#35742293)
I mean, didn't Pandora spend like a decade pretending to be that? We don't exactly need AGI for that, we just need Pandora with some specific problems fixed.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by pxc on Friday April 28, 2023 @11:26AM (#35742410)
Part of what makes this nice is that it's a handmade product of love for a family member. I think if you commoditize something like this, it loses much of its charm and even some of its purpose.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by dang on Friday April 28, 2023 @01:03PM (#35744076)
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35740720. It's not super terrible but it's off topic and the parent thread was making the page top heavy.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by nXqd on Friday April 28, 2023 @09:02AM (#35740775)
wow, I really enjoy the idea that basically, she just uses what works for her with better content. Really nice work
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by intelVISA on Friday April 28, 2023 @09:16AM (#35740917)
I love this, thx for sharing :)
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by FridayoLeary on Friday April 28, 2023 @10:04AM (#35741401)
I have a spare rpi lying around. I know what i want to do with it now...
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by noman-land on Friday April 28, 2023 @10:50AM (#35741960)
Absolutely love this idea. Great work.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by emaginniss on Friday April 28, 2023 @11:36AM (#35742554)
You should start selling ad time
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by umvi on Friday April 28, 2023 @11:36AM (#35742557)
Did you have to apply for some kind of permit to do that? Or is it low power enough that FCC doesn't care?
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by LinuxBender on Friday April 28, 2023 @11:44AM (#35742732)
FWIW there are many transmitters similar to what they built that enable playing MP3 players, phones and other things on old radios [1]. I do not remember what the power limit is but no permit is required. They can operate throughout the entire FM broadcast spectrum. If they are broadcasting good music in an elderly community I doubt anyone will complain.

[1] - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08L3WX26S/

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by froglets on Friday April 28, 2023 @12:35PM (#35743675)
Several homes in my city put up holiday lights that are synced to music and transmitted over FM. The signal only works if you’re parked near the house.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by mixmastamyk on Friday April 28, 2023 @12:38PM (#35743709)
Earth Angel, will you be mine…

How about a speech synthesis DJ, “that was Foo McBar from 19XX”?

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by follower on Saturday April 29, 2023 @01:59PM (#35755382)
Since I've been playing around with Piper Text-to-Speech & the associated LibriTTS voice model, I couldn't resist:

* https://rancidbacon.gitlab.io/piper-tts-demos/#various_radio...

If the six speakers I selected for the demo don't match your taste in DJs, there's around 900 more in that voice model to try... :D

(The 3 audio players differ only in file format & whether I ran the output through normalization.)

Also, I was pretty impressed/surprised at the quality of their pronunciation of the meta-syntactic variables. :)

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by mixmastamyk on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:24PM (#35759187)
Ha, that’s awesome. Several of the voices sounded just right for radio. I see the lib is limited to 24khz, maybe why it has an almost AM radio sound?
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by drivers99 on Sunday April 30, 2023 @09:11AM (#35762225)
They all sound out of breath. Not sure what causes that effect/perception. Listening to it again, it seems like the plosives (like d, or t) have no pop like there was no air pressure behind them.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by wnolens on Friday April 28, 2023 @01:33PM (#35744493)
Thanks for sharing. I aspire to such elegant projects.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by bazmattaz on Friday April 28, 2023 @06:34PM (#35747963)
What app do you use to make the playlists? You could use the Spotify api for this
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by MandieD on Friday April 28, 2023 @06:50PM (#35748124)
This is inspirational for my gaggle of non-tech, super-senior relatives. Thanks so much for sharing.
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by PaulHoule on Saturday April 29, 2023 @11:37AM (#35753931)
Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by maebert on Saturday April 29, 2023 @02:16PM (#35755556)
The internet archive has tons of old radio shows too; my favourite is The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes, which aired in the early 40s. Best thing is that it also has the original ads in there. “Now that the poultry shortage is over, why not enjoy a glass of wine with your Sunday chicken roast?”

Might be cute to include some old original programming in your pirate radio!

https://archive.org/details/sherlock-holmes-1939-11-06-6-the...

Re:Ask HN: Most interesting tech you built for just yourself? by ismokedoinks on Sunday April 30, 2023 @12:49PM (#35764329)
I used to work construction with one of those big old radios covered in paint that has been dropped 1000 times--we got around to using an FM transmitter dangling off the phone for it. It was fun + charming, since then I've thought about getting a big radio setup and hard-wiring Bluetooth in but your setup sounds truer to the concept.