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Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by AlexB138 on Monday October 31, 2022 @12:48PM (#33408546)
I wasn't at all surprised to see the ban. The way electric scooters were handled in Atlanta was an absolute nightmare. They littered every sidewalk, blocking pedestrian traffic in already crowded streets. 100% of people riding them rode them on the sidewalk and collisions were pretty common. People were getting hurt, and were very afraid of getting hit.

It's really unfortunate it went this way, because Atlanta badly needs alternative transpiration options. We would likely have been better off with heavy enforcement around proper storage and riding of scooters, but so many people absolutely hated them due to how it was handled that I'm not surprised to see a ban instead.

The poor handling of how they were rolled out did a lot of damage long term to fixing transportation. Now there will be an uphill battle against a ban passed in reaction to the mess they created. Disappointing all around.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by MichaelCollins on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:31PM (#33409399)
> 100% of people riding them rode them on the sidewalk

A few months ago I saw a man in Seattle die while riding an electric scooter on a street going down a hill. He was going way too fast, probably trying to keep up with the cars I think, started wobbling, fell, and bounced his head off the street. Dead on impact. Two points:

1. These scooters are not stable enough to operate at road speed safely. The wheels are too small for it, the dynamics of controlling one at speed are all fucked up. They are substantially less safe than even bicycles.

2. Rental scooters don't come with rental helmets. I think a helmet would have saved his life. But the whole supposed convenience of the scooter rental scheme assumes no helmets, since virtually nobody leaves home in the morning carrying a helmet on the off chance they may want to rent a scooter.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by rngname22 on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:40PM (#33409528)
Rental scooters are like if we lived in a society where everyone rode horses and then suddenly you could rent a Ford Model-T to drive without any lessons or a driver's license and no cultural standards of safety or infrastructure built for cars.

Banning e-scooters wholesale rather than figuring out how they can be part of a safe mobility culture is like banning combustion vehicles at the onset of the invention of cars.

I will agree though that safer electric PEV like e-bike or e-tricycle are likely safer, as are those with speed governors, and add in dedicated protected lanes.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by MichaelCollins on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:45PM (#33409615)
> Rental scooters are like if we lived in a society where everyone rode horses

Speaking of.. the Amish use scooters fairly extensively, but not typical scooters. Their scooters have very large tires by scooter standards; tires meant for children's bicycles. I think these would be much safer than typical small-tired scooters.

https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=amish+scooter&iax=images&ia...

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by rngname22 on Monday October 31, 2022 @04:41PM (#33412707)
Yeah I actually have a 'kick-scooter' aka human powered that's got a larger wheelbase than the standard children's kickscooter and pneumatic tires as well as suspension, not nearly as large as those in your link though, it's still dangerous to ride over larger cracks in sidewalk pavement with it. It's an Oxelo Town7 EF I believe (from Decathlon). I found it to be a nice vehicle for trips in Brooklyn that would normally take 15-30 minutes to walk if I wanted to get there more quickly and it's legal to ride a kickscooter on the sidewalk in NYC unlike an e-scooter. Also much lighter than e-scooters.

I got the thing because I loved e-scooters so much but I felt like buying an e-scooter was an unacceptable action given how much it would increase my probability of lifechanging injury or death. But ultimately I found myself stopping using it.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by tadfisher on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:02PM (#33409887)
> Banning e-scooters wholesale rather than figuring out how they can be part of a safe mobility culture is like banning combustion vehicles at the onset of the invention of cars.

Plenty of cities did just that, after a rash of pedestrian (and equestrian) deaths. What resulted was a multi-decade lobbying effort that redefined the "street" to mean a thoroughfare for combustion vehicles.

Plenty of cities are now walking back that effort and are once again banning combustion vehicles in their cores, or at least are not dedicating the space entirely to cars and trucks. A ho-hum example is Kaiserslautern, Germany, where you can drive in the city core, but it's just much more efficient to park in a lot outside the core and walk.

In the process of typing this comment, I discovered that I agree with your overall point, but I would suggest ditching the "protected lane" part and simply take away the dedicated space for cars.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by flatline on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:40PM (#33409538)
I was on travel to San Francisco last week, 20 mph down the Presidio through GGSP and I would have loved a helmet but I didn’t pack one in my carry on! You are really putting your life on the line without one - both from the flimsiness and speed of the device, and city roads and traffic. The people I saw with helmets clearly owned their scooters.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by mint2 on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:46PM (#33409639)
The scooter forces users to go 20mph? You’re talking about the stand on scooters not the mopeds right?
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by isbvhodnvemrwvn on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:51PM (#33409711)
10mph is more than enough to kill you if you hit a curb.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by dalbasal on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:41PM (#33409545)
Rental scooters here (Tel Aviv) often come with helmets. They click into the front.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by cheriot on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:39PM (#33409521)
1. The speed can be governed

2. Agreed. Crazy to me that people ride these without helmets. There's also foldable helmets for people annoyed by the size of regular ones. Protected bike lanes also improve this.

That said, banning scooters is a step backward.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by ars on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:42PM (#33409563)
> The speed can be governed

You sure? Applying brakes to someone rolling downhill can make them fall because their body is still in motion, and now the scooter isn't moving at the same speed, and they were not prepared for it.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by Gwypaas on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:59PM (#33409836)
They do it through the electric engine. It's a bit of a jerky motion, like allowing 1-3 km/h over and then braking down to 20 km/h. After a while you do not even notice it.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by MichaelCollins on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:57PM (#33409809)
Ideally the brake is applied to limit speed, not reduce it. To keep you capped at a safe speed, rather than allowing an unsafe speed to be reached then slamming on the brakes to reduce it.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by eshyong on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:55PM (#33409772)
I think they meant the scooters have firmware which can limit the top speed of the rider.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by sanedigital on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:41PM (#33409543)
1. Not downhill.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by krisoft on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:52PM (#33409740)
Why not? The same brushless motors could be also used to brake the scooter could they not?
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by kqr on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:58PM (#33409820)
I haven't run the numbers but at that size I would expect them to get very, very warm.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by kaba0 on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:27PM (#33410309)
Couldn’t they just do a controlled spark at high enough voltage?
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by mmh0000 on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:54PM (#33409757)
1. Regen braking
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by sanedigital on Friday November 11, 2022 @10:21AM (#33561898)
Sure, up to a certain grade. But regen braking isn't working down hills like the ones in SF.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by Gwypaas on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:57PM (#33409817)
All the ones in Sweden use the electric motor to govern the speed downhill, limited to 20 km/h.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by Zak on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:59PM (#33409838)
I've tested this. The fastest I could get a Voi scooter in Germany to go downhill was 27 km/h. They're limited to 20 km/h on level ground and gradually start braking if they exceed that speed downhill.

It might be possible to find a hill steep enough to overcome the braking force, or one that results in a strong enough braking force to make the scooter difficult to control, but it should be obvious to most people that attempting such a thing is dangerous.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by bombcar on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:34PM (#33409435)
I saw helmets on rental scooters recently - they were green and maybe in Miami? If provided people might use them but I bet we could make a technology that would prevent the scooter from moving unless the helmet was attached properly. At that point people would "know" you have to wear them so it wouldn't be terribly uncool.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by ars on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:40PM (#33409542)
I'd be grossed out wearing a helmet someone else wore that wasn't cleaned.

I might do it anyway to save my life, but it would definitely be a deterrent.

Also heads come in sizes, so a single helmet would not really work - you'd need "helmet stands" where you could get one that fits, and that give them a disinfectant spray between customers (likes shoes in a bowling alley).

Maybe Amazon style lockers?

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by ay on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:16PM (#33410110)
You could get “helmet adapter caps”, similar to the rubber ones you wear in swimming pools. It would be much more compact than a helmet, and could solve both the hygiene (by virtue of being hermetic around the head) and size (by “padding” the head to some standard dimension so the helmet fits well. Then the helmet could tighten.

(Disclaimer: Just an idea.not sure how practical it would be)

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by piceas on Monday October 31, 2022 @03:32PM (#33411496)
Where I live people who want a helmet but not something on their head use an inflatable that triggers on falling. I presume they can be used with scooters.

A scarf style thing is hopefully not as gross to share as a helmet.

https://hovding.com/

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by bobthepanda on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:43PM (#33409582)
People really, really, really do not like helmets. Seattle has a bike helmet law which is considered to be one of the failures of the old public docked bikeshare system (there were free helmets offered at each station IIRC).

To be honest, I think helmets are good, but a mandate has its own issues. I think usually the culprit is extremely bad infrastructure for not-cars; few places have bike lanes which are safe and comfortable to use and in good condition. Or bike racks which might be a logical place to otherwise put scooters. Sidewalks are usually not a good substitute, and even where they exist often they may not be ADA compliant in terms of ramps or width, they are bumpy due to tree roots etc. displacing the sidewalk panels from their original position and creating unsafe bumps, etc.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by Kirby64 on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:43PM (#33410620)
I don't think the issue is that people don't like helmets (although, I'm sure some people do not like wearing them, similar to some people that don't wear seatbelts). The issue is that it hasn't been made convenient or hygienic enough to wear them.

Two issues:

You have to bring your own, which is a relatively large thing you have to remember to bring and store. Either people forget them, or can't be bothered... because the whole point of the scooters is ad hoc transportation if needed when it isn't expected.

You get one provided (on the larger ones that include them), but now you have a singular helmet which may have just been used by a sweaty gross human. And it just got put away into a sealed box.

The only thing I can think of to alleviate both of those fears (and still allow Scooter sized things to exist..) would be some sort of helmet vending machine with a 'used helmet' return box. It'd require way more helmets and some sort of cleaning mechanism, but at least that would solve or alleviate the two main concerns. It does immediately mean you now need scooters in close proximity to vending machines though...

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by bobthepanda on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:55PM (#33410856)
One other option would be a decent collapsible helmet, which would remove the bulk issue.

For people to actually carry one, it would probably need to pack up to the size of a tote umbrella.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by somehnacct3757 on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:44PM (#33409583)
Personally I would rather walk than share a helmet with N other scooter riders, especially in a climate like Miami's
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by adolph on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:45PM (#33409619)
1. How would you get a helmet that fits safely?

2. How is cleanliness handled? Maybe I’m an outlier for sweat, but I don’t think many people would be ok with wearing my used helmet.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by NickC25 on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:11PM (#33410022)
They are blue, and yes - in Miami. The company is called HelBiz - and they're the only game in town right now.

However, there are a few issues with helmets, one of which is that a lot of people think it's gross if they have to use a helmet someone else just used, especially in a city where you're bound to sweat profusely when outside no matter what time of the year it is. Imagine putting on a helmet that's covered with the sweat of 2 or 3 people that have also rode the scooter in the last 2 or 3 hours? Yuck!

Requiring helmets is a great idea - but a crux of the issue is that people will ignore requirements as much as they possibly can and will try to spoof the requirement every chance they get. There's a moped company in town called Revel that operates a bunch of moped rentals similar to scooters. They require all riders to wear the provided helmet, and even financially incentivize other users to report people riding without helmets. That hasn't solved anything, and I see people riding those things without helmets on multiple times every single day.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by Cockbrand on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:43PM (#33409572)
> [Scooters] are substantially less safe than even bicycles (Emphasis mine)

Bicycles aren't unsafe in themselves, see lots of cities where cycling is a very common and safe mode of transportation. Scooters on the other hand are indeed a lot less safe due to their small wheels, short wheelbase and awkward stance of the rider. That said, it's the urban planning that makes cycling unsafe in many places, not the device itself.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by MichaelCollins on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:53PM (#33409749)
A helmet has probably saved my life several times when riding my bike. In all cases, it was only me, my bike, and my idiocy involved, no third parties. All it takes is a little bit of loose gravel where you don't expect it, or a wet stone in the path that's a bit slippier than expected.

Bicycles with helmets are fairly safe. Without helmets? No way, I'm not riding without a helmet. But scooters without helmets are much worse, I wouldn't dare go much more than 10mph on a scooter without a helmet.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by Kim_Bruning on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:15PM (#33410088)
Hmm, What kind of bike at what kind of speed on what kind of surface?

It's entirely possible to ride a bike in a way that actually doesn't require a helmet. It's VERY boring :-P , but nevertheless practical and doable.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by MichaelCollins on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:29PM (#33410328)
Probably about 15 to 20 mph. Once on a country road going down a hill in a bend; I slipped on loose gravel and had to replace my helmet. The second time, about the same speed but on a country bike path (flat land, next to a canal). I slipped on a large wet stone embedded in the path and again had to replace my helmet.

I've fallen a few other times besides those two, but those are the worst two and I think without a helmet I would have been seriously injured if not dead.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by syntheweave on Monday October 31, 2022 @10:23PM (#33416180)
I ride without a helmet and essentially never go beyond about 12 MPH, and more often in the 6-8 range. I take sidewalks generously, stay out of mixed traffic, and frequently stay in low gear, and this is still over twice as fast as an average walking pace.

I think it's all relative to how much you're approaching it as "road cycling" vs "urban commuting". If you keep the seat high, lean forward, and pedal near your limits, you definitely need protection even if the road is empty. But if you're going at a pace and a posture that lets you stomp your foot down easily, the dangers come down to total loss of control(e.g. downhill, failing brakes) and unpredictable traffic.

The biggest danger with electric mobility going forward lies in blurring of the distinctions. When they're brought up to highway speeds, what you have is an underbuilt motorcycle with no safety features or licensing requirements.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by aidenn0 on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:55PM (#33409776)
Don't forget wet leaves. I was riding my bike well after it had rained, and most of the path was dry, but there was a shady spot under a tree that still was wet and I basically lost all traction on it. Only time I ever "used" my helmet.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by MichaelCollins on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:02PM (#33409880)
Or half buried campfire rings (aka a repurposed truck wheel rim) hidden by the grass on the side of a hill.. I think I must have done about two flips in the air after hitting that. At least in that case I don't think I hit my head hard, I landed in the same grass which cushioned my landing, but if there had been something else hidden in the grass I might have lost more than just a bicycle wheel.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by kqr on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:52PM (#33409734)
Ordinary upright/city bicycles have significant controllability problems at high (>50 km/h) speeds compared to e.g. cars. I think that's where "even bicycles" comes from, in this context.

(Why am I using >50 km/h as the benchmark? Because that's the sort of speeds you easily end up at if you try to keep up with cars downhill.)

----

Edit: it seems that people are missing critical words in my comment:

- "Ordinary upright/city bike" means "not road/touring/etc bikes". They are constructed differently and comfortably do well over 50 km/h.

- "Downhill" means significant gravity assistance for a few seconds up to a minute, and not "sustained under pedaling power alone". I'd be impressed if you regularly did 50 km/h on the flats with one of those bicycles.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by TheCoelacanth on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:37PM (#33410478)
To be fair, if you're holding a professional cycling race, you should probably close off the roads to other traffic.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by Ylpertnodi on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:23PM (#33410226)
>Because that's the sort of speeds you easily end up at if you try to keep up with cars downhill

Not many people will do >50kmh even downhill (even with disk brakes), and on the few occasions I've done so, I absolutely would not say there are "significant controllability problems". In fact, quite the opposite.

[1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FN6Z8UgVOuw Nb - these were shot in the days before the 'supertuck' (sitting on the crossbar) was banned.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by taeric on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:28PM (#33410315)
I easily hit 35-40 mph on every commute to work with my bicycle on one of the downhills. Just 30mph is trivial to get to on any of the downhills with my bike, and is just slightly faster than many of the ebikes go with very little effort.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by arcticbull on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:17PM (#33410116)
> Ordinary upright/city bicycles have significant controllability problems at high (>50 km/h) speeds compared to e.g. cars. I think that's where "even bicycles" comes from, in this context.

Who on earth is using ordinary city bikes at 50km/h near cars? Even class II e-bikes are limited to 20mph/32kph.

Class III are limited to 28mph/45kph but are forbidden from bike paths.

[edit] 50kph under your own power is the average speed at the Tour de France.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by grogenaut on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:29PM (#33410335)
I used to commute from Bellevue WA to Kirkland WA, the mainly way across the freeway was either to go down this road over the freeway that didn't used to have sidewalks https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6393386,-122.2032674,17.25z or go 2 miles out of the way and up a huge hill. The right lane is where people wanted to go to get on the freeway at the time. It was easiest to just get in the left lane and do 40mph down the hill which is what cars did speed wise. People gave me plenty of berth if I was moving at car speeds. If I went slow on the right I got tailgated.

My bike was quite stable at 40mph.

No I wouldn't go that fast on a bike path, this was only due to the power of gravity.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by taeric on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:31PM (#33410372)
As I mentioned in sibling response, it is somewhat easy to get those speeds in any hilly place. Keeping them for extended times is, of course, out of the question. And my return commute has me well below that. Again for obvious reasons. :D

Now, I fully agree with the spirit of your post. Even the spots I'm talking about are short bursts.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by toasteros on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:51PM (#33409720)
> Rental scooters don't come with rental helmets.

There is one company I'm aware of that at least operates here in Canada called Neuron, which has helmets attached to every rental scooter. You're told by the app to put it on.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by Sakos on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:59PM (#33409842)
That's cool. I wish this would be a thing here in Europe, but I don't think it would be workable because of hygiene.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by toasteros on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:17PM (#33410123)
That is, sadly, the main reason I've found people choose not to wear them. The one time I rode with that brand I didn't either, because it just looked...gross.

I'm buying my own e-scooter for when the snow clears. And a helmet.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by laulis on Monday October 31, 2022 @04:47PM (#33412814)
Tier in Germany did have helmets on some of their older scooters, however it seems like they replaced them with newer ones which don't have them anymore.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by seabriez on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:03PM (#33409904)
There are plenty of people who suck at them, just as there are people who suck driving at cars and motorcycles. I might be OK to having a permitting system, but as well all know people still crash. Having an outright ban on scooters I think is stupid. Making all of society behave like the lowest common denominator is not a great policy.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by munk-a on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:12PM (#33408997)
The real solution to congestion is to shift cities away from having so much car infrastructure. If you build a car oriented city with gigantic box stores surrounded by lakes of parking lots as the only option then people will drive cars. Electric scooters are a terrible solution to a problem that really needs to be addressed.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by yupper32 on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:25PM (#33409271)
Why is it always framed this way? This is NOT the solution.

The solution is to build better public transportation options. That will necessarily include removing a decent amount of the car infrastructure, but you can't just remove car infrastructure and hope people adapt.

The way you frame it, it sounds like (and it often is the case with people framing it this way) that you think that if we remove car infrastructure, people will be forced to use other means of transportation to get around. And while technically true, all it will actually do is piss people off and make it so much harder to get around.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by CydeWeys on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:37PM (#33409482)
I live in Manhattan and I find a bicycle to be a better choice for the majority of my trips than public transit (it's faster, too). I only use public transit for long trips or when I'm traveling with suitcases.

Bikes are simply better at point-to-point transportation (the same advantage that cars have), except that they don't take up a lot of space so it's actually a scalable solution to have everyone using them to get around even in a dense city; see Amsterdam as an example.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by yupper32 on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:48PM (#33409673)
Excuse my language but I think it's worth it here: Dear fucking lord, if biking in Manhatten is your idea of bikes shining, then you are way out in left field.

In my week in Manhatten last month I saw several crashes (including a near miss with a sit-down scooter riding in the bike lane who had to bail and slide before nearly crashing into a crowd of pedestrians), pedestrians jumping out of the way of bikes who don't stop at red lights, and bikes swerving around car traffic barely getting by without taking out car mirrors or getting run over.

Biking in Manhatten is not for the faint of heart and not for anyone who isn't decently athletic.

You could have lauded the subway system, but you chose bikes?

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by CydeWeys on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:01PM (#33409873)
Sounds like you had an exceptional experience, having seen more crashes in one week than I see in years of living here. And I promise you, I spend a lot more time on foot and on bike in the city than you do.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by yupper32 on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:09PM (#33410005)
Then either you're used to the mayhem and aren't seeing it, or you mostly stay away from where I was (between Houston and 42nd St mostly).

Regardless, are you really saying that "bikes are simply better at point-to-point transportation" for most people in Manhatten? Because that's absurd.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by CydeWeys on Tuesday November 01, 2022 @11:03AM (#33422179)
That's exactly where I live and work. I dunno what to say, you had an exceptional experience. That's not my lived daily experience at all.

And yes, I would say it's best for most people in Manhattan. It would be even better if we build more bike lanes and get more cars off the road.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by asoneth on Monday October 31, 2022 @04:44PM (#33412774)
Echoing the above, I had a bike commute in midtown Manhattan as well and found it more convenient than the subway and safer than biking in the suburbs.

Compared to the NYC subway it was faster, more consistent, and less prone to delays.

Compared to biking in the suburbs the car traffic typically moved more slowly, I didn't have as many close passes, and drivers seemed more aware of their surroundings. In the suburbs the majority of the people I see biking are middle-aged men in lycra, whereas in the city it seemed more like a demographic cross section.

I also saw other cyclists cross on red lights, knock into pedestrians, and swerve erratically in traffic, though I also saw drivers, moped riders, and pedestrians do the same at roughly the same rate so I always assumed it was a crazy New Yorker thing and not a crazy biker thing.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by treffer on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:41PM (#33409546)
As you say it is technically the solution.

It is also not like car infrastructure would turn into non-existance. It most cases all that happens is reuse. Playing fields. Pedestrian areas. Bike lanes. Bus lanes. Bike areas.

The only common thing is they all cist car infrastructure space. This is the common ground. The reallocation of that infrastructure and space is a different story.

I have yet to see a case where it didn't pass people off no matter what the future use was. So even if technically the other framing should be different I have not seen a case where it makes a difference. All while seeing that even pure car infrastructure blockage makes a difference.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by yupper32 on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:55PM (#33409762)
> As you say it is technically the solution.

No, I said technically people will adapt and take the shitty and overrun public transportation because there's no other option. It's not a solution because it often drastically increases travel time, put people in danger because public transportation without proper security is much more dangerous, and overall it will rightfully piss people off.

The solution is improving public transportation. This isn't something that people are advocating for. They just want the cars out.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by TedKroft on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:12PM (#33410042)
The people who want cars out absolutely want improved public transportation.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by yupper32 on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:20PM (#33410165)
Then they should say that and frame their arguments around that. That's my entire point. Do you see any mention of public transportation improvements in the comment I originally replied to? No, you don't.

The movement has no hope if the movement is simply trying to get rid of cars. "Fuck cars" as they say.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by munk-a on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:33PM (#33410409)
As the original poster I'd mention that I'd love to see a much better public transit system but that I've also seen it repeatedly stymied by car-centric interests. I've seen stupidly large bus exchanges placed in the middle of fields because all the land closer to what people actually want to get to is covered with acres of parking and I've seen bus lanes shot down because of the expected impact on traffic. We need to accept that car infrastructure will be degraded to actually get meaningful transit changes and city densification efforts through and those box stores in lakes of parking need to die as a default footprint to build retail. If it takes seven minutes to walk from one storefront to the next then you're never going to get people out of their cars no matter how many buses you throw at the problem.

At the end of the day it comes down to: car infrastructure, walkability - choose one.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by SR2Z on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:37PM (#33409490)
It's framed this way because car infrastructure is so massive and sprawling that it by necessity crowds out public transit in cities.

It's also a vicious cycle: making public transit marginally worse increases the number of people who drive to get places, which makes the government build more roads, which makes cities sprawl more, and eventually you end up with a city like Atlanta that spans 50 miles and is barely navigable without a car.

Yes, it will piss people off - it will make cities MUCH less convenient for suburban drivers. That's not a bad thing unless you happen to be a suburban driver.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by foxyv on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:57PM (#33409812)
It will make homes, 25 miles from the city center, nearly worthless. People will want to live into the denser, walkable neighborhoods. They limit the amount of mixed use, medium density housing because it would crash the market for new car dependent suburbs which provide the funding for road maintenance and construction.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by SauciestGNU on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:25PM (#33410263)
Part of the problem is that the suburbs already externalize their maintenance costs. Nearly none of them generate enough tax revenue to maintain their sprawling infrastructure, so repairs get subsidized by the tax base in denser areas, or the maintenance is just not done at all.

If suburban drivers and homeowners weren't benefitting from urban success and externalizing all their costs then those properties would already be close to worthless.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by mikem170 on Monday October 31, 2022 @03:00PM (#33410943)
> They limit the amount of mixed use, medium density housing because it would crash the market for new car dependent suburbs which provide the funding for road maintenance and construction.

It is my understanding that many car dependent suburbs got subsidies from higher levels of government to build new roads [0], which allowed them to expand their tax base, but that the density of their taxpayers, per mile of infrastructure, is not enough for longer term expensive maintenance after several decades. This applies not just to roads, but also water and sewer infrastructure. Cities with ten times the density of suburbs have an easier time paying the fixed per-mile portion of infrastructure costs.

The infrastructure in suburbs has already been subsidized, and may need more subsidies. Or services will degrade.

I don't know that anything you said above conflicts with what you said about mixed use, I wasn't sure about the funding part though.

[0] https://www.strongtowns.org/the-growth-ponzi-scheme/

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by foxyv on Tuesday November 01, 2022 @10:13AM (#33421502)
Yeah, the new houses are what pay the bills. Once the music stops playing though the game is over. Medium density, mixed use housing would stop the music by making demand for crappy new R1 housing plummet. No one wants to rip the bandaid off though so it just gets worse and worse until they turn into Detroit.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by bombcar on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:37PM (#33409489)
If you want the real answer it's pretty easy to figure out. There's a group of people that want a particular form of society and that necessitates the absolute removal of the personal car, usually without actually fixing the problems that the car is supposedly causing.

People will adapt to many things, but that doesn't mean it is good - you could stop food deliveries to major cities and they'd empty in days; cars included; but that wouldn't be good.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by soperj on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:33PM (#33409422)
> Why is it always framed this way? This is NOT the solution.

Because it's the actual solution.

> you can't just remove car infrastructure and hope people adapt.

You don't have to hope. They will adapt.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by yupper32 on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:40PM (#33409532)
If you remove car infrastructure in SF, for example, there are massive amounts of the city that will die because they lack adequate public transit options.

You remove mobility, and you remove any hope for underserved communities to survive, let alone improve.

Instead, you could advocate for MORE mobility via better public transportation. But you don't for some reason that I may never understand.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by DoneWithAllThat on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:37PM (#33409493)
Ah yes the progressive strategy: make lives miserable for people to force them to adopt your worldview. The only thing it seems to do successfully is lose them elections.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by burtness on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:50PM (#33409699)
I mean this is basically all politics - who should suffer and how much to keep society running. I don't think you'll find a progressive monopoly on that
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by jgon on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:38PM (#33409502)
No they wouldn't. They would take to the polls and vote in a city council that would reverse whatever sort of plans you think would be implemented. A lot of people seem to think that they will just be able to force a majority of people to join them in bike heaven on the other side of sweeping infrastructure changes but there are far too many people who aren't interested in it and won't let it happen. Car driving and the things it enables are valued much higher by a much bigger proportion of the population that many people seem to want to believe.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by ryukafalz on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:44PM (#33409585)
Often the car infrastructure itself is what makes getting around without a car infeasible even for short trips - and short trips are a very large portion of trips taken. There are many, many destinations near me that are within easy biking distance, but doing so involves crossing highway ramps and mixing with fast-moving cars.

We do not need to allow cars to take every possible route. Alternative modes of transport are more useful if they're prioritized on the most direct routes. Cars are fast, a diversion won't impact them as much as it does someone on a bike or scooter.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by foxyv on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:49PM (#33409675)
I think, if you take their argument with a bit of generosity, that they are arguing for more balance in our approach to cities. Right now the balance is so far in favor of cars, that it makes walking and cycling into an extreme sport. The result is loud, dangerous, expensive, and dirty cities that are built almost exclusively for cars.

The humungous parking lots, the 50-foot wide roads, the high speeds, the increasingly larger vehicles, the demolished housing for more freeways, parking minimums, extensive R1 zoning... They all contribute to a city exclusively for cars. Even if we don't get rid of ALL of it, we can certainly cut it back significantly.

Maybe ban cars in places where we don't need them anyways like Valencia street in San Francisco or the Spanish super blocks. Decrease speed limits and design streets to enforce them properly. Add walking and cycling paths to the grocery stores. Add raised crosswalks. When you don't have people using their cars to travel 5 miles everyday it leaves them open to the people who REALLY need to use them. Allow walkable neighborhoods in city planning initiatives.

People WANT to live in places like these, but we refuse to build them for some reason. It's why walkable neighborhoods, built when they were still legal, cost an arm and a leg now. Heck, we even build theme parks to give people a vague feeling of being someplace like that. People go on vacation to countries with places like that.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by aeturnum on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:11PM (#33410031)
To me, this discussion is very similar to the discussion around "defund the police": should we lead with the unpopular thing that people will have to accept or should we lead with the goal?

My sense of why this framing is popular is that we've had ~30+ years of passing "public transit" initiatives that are doomed to fail because we would not disrupt car infrastructure. This becomes a double-whammy because we spend money to get very mediocre results, and people reasonably blame the transit system.

Instead, if you're clear from the start that you are going to remove an entire lane in the city for your BRT system - you face more opposition, but you have a much better chance of implementing an actual BRT system!

I think reasonable people can disagree on this, but it's not a mystery how we got here.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by hackernewds on Monday October 31, 2022 @03:21PM (#33411294)
Exactly this reminds me of the Market Street closure in San Francisco, that has the intention and result of inconveniencing citywide traffic while making zero improvements to the tardiness, reach and infrequency of public transit
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by hnov on Monday October 31, 2022 @04:44PM (#33412777)
Ironically, the closure also made Market St more unpleasant (an already unpleasant experience before) to walk after dark.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by colinmhayes on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:23PM (#33409212)
Obviously this would be the optimal solution, but we have to operate in the realm of reality. There is no political will to eliminate car centric infrastructure.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by alistairSH on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:24PM (#33409253)
There's some will. DC metro is seeing changes. More robust bike lane networks downtown. More bike lanes in the suburbs. More mixed use development near transit hubs (with underground parking or limited parking).
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by colinmhayes on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:33PM (#33409427)
In select northern cities sure, not in Atlanta.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by acdha on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:21PM (#33410192)
Eliminate, no, but car infrastructure ensures tens of thousands of deaths and hundreds of thousands of life-altering injuries every year, bakes in climate change (even EVs are considerably worse than every other option), and it costs more than the alternatives – enough so that many cities and almost all suburbs struggle with maintenance and cuts to other services. The combination of those factors make me more optimistic than I’ve been in the past that we’ll see a shift away from the 20th century “one person, one car, every trip” mentality. We don’t need to eliminate cars, simply not subsidizing them at the expense of everything else would yield huge health, pollution, and quality of life improvements.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by munk-a on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:35PM (#33410445)
In the 1970s the Netherlands looked much like any slice of America you could randomly choose - that political will might be impossible in America, I'm genuinely uncertain if the hole has been dug too deep at this point, but in a more healthy political environment it certainly can be done... but it isn't easy.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by spamizbad on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:17PM (#33409088)
Yeah, it should be obvious that automobile infrastructure can only support a finite amount of density. Once you cross that threshold you either need to halt growth and aggressively downzone OR build infrastructure for alternative modes of transit to absorb the excess.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by NovemberWhiskey on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:15PM (#33409054)
No; these things have been a plague everywhere, even in cities organized with good public transportation and non car-centric centers.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by tjoff on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:25PM (#33409282)
Have been, but not anymore. At least here.

Now you have to take a photograph when you end a ride to prove that you did it responsible. There are many areas that are marked as slow-speed and many areas that are marked as no-park. The most central parts are entirely no-park with exceptions for dedicated bicycle-parkings.

Scooters that are misparked can be confiscated and the company needs to pay a fine to get it back.

It took a little while but now it seems to be respected by the vast majority and it has become a decent addition to other public transportation.

And I say this as someone who did despise them in the beginning.

Lots of other areas to discuss though, such as whether they last long enough to make environmental sense etc.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by franciscop on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:50PM (#33409693)
This is absolutely not true; look at any cities around Europe, or at Japanese cities, neither of those are "car oriented city with gigantic box stores surrounded by lakes of parking lots".

In the case of Japan, life develops around the train stations indeed, where all the shops and entertainment is, and between those stations are the residential areas, so scooters are perfect here.

In European cities (smaller) it's normally organized in rings, where most things you'd want to do are within the city center, or around large neighborhoods but also in circles (larger). So you can take a train/bus/cycle/scooter to the center, then going to the different places either walking or with the scooter.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by isbvhodnvemrwvn on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:57PM (#33409815)
They were talking scooters, they are a huge pain in the ass with people leaving it in the middle of sidewalk, riding like maniacs, often drunk (especially tourists).
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by Gigachad on Monday October 31, 2022 @05:26PM (#33413444)
This is a problem with rental scooters but not private ownership.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by insanitybit on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:22PM (#33409194)
Shifting a large city away from having a lot of car infrastructure sounds extraordinarily complex, expensive, and time consuming. I would potentially support it, but surely scooters are cheaper and quicker to implement.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by parineum on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:27PM (#33409306)
> extraordinarily complex, expensive, and time consuming

Remove all zoning laws and it takes care of itself over time. Zoning is always "keep [thing people want] away from [place where people want it]".

All that accomplishes is putting services that people want further away from them.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by lm28469 on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:25PM (#33409267)
Sure but one is a step in the right direction while the other adds a pile of shit on top of the existing pile of shit

It's like hotfixing a completely broken pile of spaghetti code in prod, it'll save your sunday evening but you're in for 6 months of rewrite anyways

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by bombcar on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:43PM (#33409573)
Every single change to a city of any reasonable size is exactly that hot fix, even if it takes months or years to implement (see: Big Dig). Desiring grand unified "fix everything" projects rarely works wonders, whereas small-scope projects over time can improve things. In many suburbs just building sidewalks and bike paths would improve things tremendously.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by clairity on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:27PM (#33409324)
the first step, repainting lines on roads to add (ideally protected) bike/scooter lanes, is a large but imminently manageable project that can get done quickly. while that's happening, you direct various to favor bike/scooter parking over cars, perhaps introducing necessary legislation to that effect. the harder and longer changes are removing/reducing over-zealous zoning, deceptive environmental lawsuits, and overly-specified building codes. it won't happen in a few months, but a lot can happen in a few years for a motivated electorate.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by the_snooze on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:33PM (#33409425)
>ideally protected

Very much the ideal. Unprotected bike lanes end up as parking for gig workers way too often.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by bombcar on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:41PM (#33409547)
There are ways to fix that, too, if we really wanted to.

For example, make it fully legal to do whatsoever you want to an unmanned non-emergency vehicle parked blocking a bike lane. Very soon an industry of car-destroyers would pop up producing amusing videos for everyone to watch.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by ars on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:45PM (#33409620)
No, the real solution is spread stuff around, so that not everyone wants to go to the exact same place at the same time.

Residential and business districts should not be a thing. Offices should be located right next to houses. (With the exception of "roudy" or loud places like music halls and bars.)

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by dcdc123 on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:03PM (#33408814)
That's not an Atlanta thing, they are a major annoyance everywhere. The people that use them just don't give a shit.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by acdha on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:28PM (#33409339)
It all comes down to infrastructure. They’re not a big problem here in DC compared to cars because we have wide sidewalks and a growing number of protected bike lanes. People driving cars are responsible for 100% of the fatalities, almost all of the injuries, and almost all of the blocked sidewalks, crosswalks, etc. and that’s where the focus should be.

What I would like is basically rebranding bike lanes as low-speed mobility lanes. Take the parking and/or right lane full-width, put up bollards, and zone it for vehicles with a max speed of 20mph (bike, scooter, trike, hoverboard, electric wheelchair, who cares - if it doesn’t pollute and takes up about as much space as a person, it’s welcome). If space allows, add protected parking spots for pickup/drop off and handicapped parking and tell everyone else that they need to pay market-rate for parking.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by mjevans on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:48PM (#33409661)
Make it 3D instead of taking space from cars and I agree.

Cars are dangerous and the best engineering solution is to isolate pedestrian scale speed and mass transfer from multi-ton industrial equipment. So go 3D, give cars their own isolated layer, give pedestrians and slightly faster moving exposed humans their own layer.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by burtness on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:57PM (#33409798)
Wouldn't the path of least resistance here be giving cars the surface layer?
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by mjevans on Tuesday November 01, 2022 @03:55PM (#33426591)
Vehicles also include construction cranes, dump and garbage trucks, etc. Those might have unlimited height, but weight is also a factor.

I'm split between an idea like Tokyo's underground mall areas (which work really well with climate control) and just over-specing several stories above ground for a platform layer that can be level across the whole city and completely free of non-emergency moving vehicles.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by asoneth on Monday October 31, 2022 @03:23PM (#33411315)
This is sort of what Boston tried to do with the big dig[1], where several highways were buried under the city. It ended up costing billions and took 15 years to complete. Also, while the RFK Greenway is nice it is also regularly bisected by busy surface roads and on/off ramps so it sometimes feels more like a grassy median than a real park.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Dig

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by trgn on Monday October 31, 2022 @03:47PM (#33411790)
Money well spent. We put excrement underground, might as well do the same for cars.

On a side-note, I was in Boston this summer and it's so much more of an airy and accommodating place than I remember from 10-15 years ago. Lot's of the COVID traffic calming and patios still in place. Awesome, go Boston!

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by aidenn0 on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:58PM (#33409824)
I moved away from the DC area long before electric scooters were a thing. Does metro PD still give jaywalking tickets to pedestrians being loaded onto ambulances (this used to be a thing)?
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by acdha on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:03PM (#33409905)
No - they basically went on soft-strike during the BLM protests. You can run a red light in front of them and unless you hit their SUV it’s unlikely they’ll react.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by bilbo0s on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:40PM (#33410556)
Just in case anyone is believing this, take my word for it, don't believe the hype.

DO NOT run a red light in front of a cop in DC. I'm just putting that out there as kindly intended advice. If you go to DC thinking it's free reign, you're likely to be disagreeably surprised. Especially if you're in the parts of the city that I'd imagine most of the people on HN would be likely to be in.

And Heaven help you if, well, other agencies watching DC misinterpret your red light running. You may be in the wrong place at the wrong time and find yourself trying to explain that to people who, as a general rule, don't believe in coincidence.

Yeah. Just don't draw that kind of attention to yourself in DC. That leads nowhere good.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by acdha on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:48PM (#33410700)
I mean, yes, I’m not saying you _should_ do it but I see that happen almost every day and it does not get an official response.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by aidenn0 on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:44PM (#33410646)
Is that just SE of the Anacostia or the touristy parts too?
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by rektide on Monday October 31, 2022 @07:52PM (#33415073)
Scooters arent a big problem in DC, but it's definitely not problem free. Bike racks are sometimes taken up by nothing but rental scooters. People sometimes leave rentals in highly inconvenient places that block the path (supposedly there's some process for telling companies & they have to move them, but I've never tried this).The scooters mostly say "don't ride on side-walks" in huge letters at their base, but tons of people do.

I wouldn't say there are big problems at all, it mostly works ok. I'm glad there are new options. But infrastructure alone isn't enough. Like the parent, I do think there are low-quality users who don't give a shit & act bad, in a way I'd never see from for example a bicycle user. How problematic is that? So far it's generally not so bad. But bad users, bad parkers, and full bike racks all take their toll. It seems unlikely a lot of these things will get better over time.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by actionablefiber on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:15PM (#33409068)
The companies operating them seem to actively encourage users not to give a shit. They're dockless, you can end a ride anywhere, if the battery dies or you get bored you're just supposed to leave it wherever and let it be someone else's problem. The companies running them all seem content to just proliferate scooters all over the street with no regard for expense or the non-scooting public since they're all trying to out-compete each other.

Here in the DC area I have a particular love for Capital Bikeshare because they're extremely affordable and (mostly) use dedicated docking stations.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by techsupporter on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:28PM (#33409342)
> They're dockless, you can end a ride anywhere

This is, for me and my wife, the entire point. We had a docked bikeshare system in Seattle and the docks were never where we needed one, particularly since Seattle's topology--a city known internationally for being incredibly flat and dry--meant that the docks on the bottom of a hill would be perpetually full and the ones at the top of the hill were always empty.

But these things are an absolute godsend for someone who can walk, but can't walk far, or who has the occasional struggle with hills. The bus or train can't go everywhere, but a scooter can get you between the spot where the bus let you off and the spot where you want to go. That's how my wife and I use them and they're amazing and, frankly, I hope they never go away.

> The companies running them all seem content to just proliferate scooters all over the street with no regard for expense or the non-scooting public

This is probably true, but I think a lot of people just don't see themselves as "the scooting public" except for the brief time they might be using one.

It's the same problem with cars, just downsized a great deal. We're incapable of building separated infrastructure, mostly due to cost, partially due to fear of loss from space given over to cars. We try these bandage workarounds, like scooters, but because we've half-assed everything except the infrastructure for cars (and because people's expectations are so high around the new idea), we wind up with a situation where everyone is frustrated because no one's needs feel met even though there are clearly uses for them.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by bombcar on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:46PM (#33409630)
Are the scooters powerful enough to take you up Queen Anne hill?

Much could be done to "fix" the scooter issue by working with the city rather than antagonistically against it, for example, on streets with parking (almost all of them) the first parking space on each block could be a designated "scooter pile".

Then modify the app to charge you a $10 "you're a dick" fee that is refunded when the scooter detects that it was thrown in the scooter pile, or similar. If you make it more advanced, let anyone with the app claim the fee if they return a scooter.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by techsupporter on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:19PM (#33410149)
> Are the scooters powerful enough to take you up Queen Anne hill?

No, but the 2 or 13 are and then a scooter can go where we want if that's not close enough or if it's a particularly bad walking day.

> Much could be done to "fix" the scooter issue by working with the city rather than antagonistically against it

I completely agree! However...

> for example, on streets with parking (almost all of them) the first parking space on each block

...this is astoundingly difficult to pull off in Seattle because people who drive cars have a very high fear of loss, as a general rule, and vehemently oppose efforts to turn car storage areas over to areas for other vehicle types. It's why we've wound up with painted-off areas that get used for refuse bins instead (blocking off where the scooters should go).

> Then modify the app to charge you a $10 "you're a dick" fee

The two apps we use require that you take a picture of where you left the thing when you park it and both of us in the past few months have gotten an email, one apiece, saying "you parked wrong, next time it's $25." (They were right, we didn't leave enough space, we've gotten more diligent.)

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by exhilaration on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:05PM (#33409935)
they're amazing and, frankly, I hope they never go away

You might want to preemptively contact your city councilmember and share your thoughts with them. Or go one step further and attend one of the meetings to speak on mic about it. Remember that they're far more likely to hear from people who complain, and it takes just a single council session to ban them.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by actionablefiber on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:07PM (#33409972)
> This is, for me and my wife, the entire point. We had a docked bikeshare system in Seattle and the docks were never where we needed one, particularly since Seattle's topology--a city known internationally for being incredibly flat and dry--meant that the docks on the bottom of a hill would be perpetually full and the ones at the top of the hill were always empty.

I can't speak to Seattle specifically, the DC area is quite hilly in some places so I've seen the same problem, exacerbated by the fact that DASH buses are free which means people will happily CaBi downhill and DASH uphill. I'm not sure how dockless fixes this though except for the fact that dockless bikes are always e-bikes which are easier to take uphill. But docked e-bikes can get you the same effect as long as there are actually docks at the tops of the hills. I find that Capital Bikeshare is really good about placing docks at bus stops and train stations and having a high enough dock density that you'll rarely need to walk more than a couple minutes from the dock to reach your destination.

> This is probably true, but I think a lot of people just don't see themselves as "the scooting public" except for the brief time they might be using one.

The scooter companies may perceive everyone as either a sometimes-scooterer or a potential convert to scooting but I don't know how true that is in reality. On top of that, people who ride transit, ride bikeshare, or ride a bike for their daily needs are typically quite happy to self-identify as such. I personally don't ride scooters but am a daily user of CaBi and one of the local bus systems (DASH).

> It's the same problem with cars, just downsized a great deal.

I can and do agitate for taking space from cars and restoring it to people. It's just frustrating that what little space is available for scalable mobility like walking and biking has even less to work with because of scooters and bikes cramming up already narrow spaces (like the 14th St. Bridge between Arlington and DC, whose pedestrian passage is already uncomfortably narrow, has several bikes and scooters abandoned there at nearly all times.)

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by techsupporter on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:23PM (#33410211)
> But docked e-bikes can get you the same effect as long as there are actually docks at the tops of the hills. I find that Capital Bikeshare is really good about placing docks at bus stops and train stations and having a high enough dock density...

This is an entirely reasonable point and that's likely where Seattle's bikeshare system failed. The operator was borderline incompetent, but also siting docks in Seattle is very difficult because of the propensity for car drivers to vocally oppose any efforts at space reallocation. It's getting very frustrating, especially now that they got a Mayor elected and a head of the Council's transportation committee who are both quite pro-car.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by actionablefiber on Monday October 31, 2022 @06:19PM (#33414113)
> The operator was borderline incompetent, but also siting docks in Seattle is very difficult because of the propensity for car drivers to vocally oppose any efforts at space reallocation.

Sadly, this happens in all US cities. Motorists in and around cities are extremely territorial and want the right to use many times more public space than is allocated to other forms of transportation, in addition to huge portions of private land via parking minimums. Successful bikeshare programs like DC has, while they still have a long way to go, are so valuable in showing what could be in this country.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by Reason077 on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:24PM (#33409243)
Here in London they’re pretty strict about parking them in designated marked spots, not leaving them littering streets randomly.

The apps will remind you repeatedly to park correctly and will fine you if you don’t, which I’m pretty sure they’re required to do as part of their licensing conditions.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by acdha on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:33PM (#33409429)
Yeah, all of these problems just come down to local politics. If your city’s political class values pedestrians, they’ll make the companies liable and it’ll magically turn out that they are actually capable of enforcing where their GPS-tracked devices are parked.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by sofixa on Monday October 31, 2022 @03:44PM (#33411739)
No, it's down to companies exploiting lack of regulations to get away with as little as possible ("free market"). Ideally they shouldn't be assholes, but failing that, local authorities should restrict them.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by acdha on Monday October 31, 2022 @04:41PM (#33412705)
That’s just restating what I said. If the city has political will, the regulations will be enforced. Letting companies ignore the law is a policy choice.

As a thought exercise, any time we see widespread lawlessness ask whether it’d still happen if, say, a random citizen could get $100 by sending a video to the city (ala NYC’s truck idling law) or if the city employees like cops or parking enforcement had similar incentives. There are downsides to that kind of thing and I’m not suggesting it as the ideal general policy but I think it is important to remember that most of the time these are not problems we don’t know how to fix but rather problems people don’t think are their job to fix.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by vkou on Monday October 31, 2022 @06:10PM (#33413995)
Doing so would also require the city to provide parking spots for them - which is the real reason for the bans. Drivers aren't interested in losing any parking spots to scooters/bicycles/???.

It's shooting themselves in the foot (because people driving less results in less congestion and competition for car parking spots), but as this thread demonstrates, there's no shortage of counter-productive thinking around non-automotive transportation.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by acdha on Monday October 31, 2022 @06:26PM (#33414189)
Nobody has a right to city-subsidized on-street parking. In most cases there is considerably more off-street parking than needed, not to mention easy opportunities to park within transit/bike/modest walking distance, and removing street parking removes a significant portion of congestion and pollution because you don’t have guys driving around for 20 minutes looking to save a couple bucks, or blocking a traffic lane while they spend 5 minutes trying to inch their Denali into a Camry-sized spot.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by vkou on Monday October 31, 2022 @07:26PM (#33414812)
> Nobody has a right to city-subsidized on-street parking.

In theory, you are correct.

In practice, drivers feel that they are entitled to it, to the exclusion of parking for all other vehicles.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by acdha on Monday October 31, 2022 @07:41PM (#33414982)
Very strong agreement on that. I'm hoping that this is changing, especially with younger generations having less financial margin to soak up the cost of private vehicles. The amount of money we spend trying to indulge that 1940s commuter dream is unsustainable.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by Reason077 on Monday October 31, 2022 @08:12PM (#33415234)
Scooter parking takes up very negligible street space. You can fit a huge number of scooters into the space occupied by one car.

If London can find plenty of space for scooter parking (and it has), I’m sure any North American city can.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by trgn on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:32PM (#33409411)
The people that use them ride on the sidewalk because they will get maimed or killed by distracted or belligerent drivers if they scoot on the street.

It's not the scooters that are the problem, it's a city environment that encourages aggressive and careless driving.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by IshKebab on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:28PM (#33409329)
You could say the same thing about cars. In fact it's far more common for cars to be parked on pavements blocking access than it is for e-scooters. You just don't notice because you're used to it.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by smileysteve on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:35PM (#33409459)
A major reason that scooters were banned in Atlanta was because cars (and a bus) kept accidentally killing people on scooters.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by bombcar on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:48PM (#33409665)
A bus can never kill anyone, it's public transportation and is therefore infallible. Cars are heavy killing machines remember, but busses and trains are perfectly magical and never harm pedestrians at all.

(Sarcasm, for the uninitiated.)

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by Quillbert182 on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:52PM (#33409741)
Largely because the people on scooters ignore traffic laws. I'm in an area of Atlanta where they are still allowed, and the riders regularly run stop signs and red lights without checking if a car is coming.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by TheCoelacanth on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:33PM (#33410424)
Wow, they sound almost as bad as car drivers.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by nathanaldensr on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:14PM (#33409047)
Exactly, and the only people surprised by this are those who assume that everyone is perfectly ethical and empathetic, just like them.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by catawbasam on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:27PM (#33409302)
Most travel modes have a downside. For example, car and suv drivers routinely speed through pedestrian crossings and kill large numbers of pedestrians.

Scooters may be annoying, but at least they aren't deadly.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by monksy on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:37PM (#33409487)
It may not be as deadly but it does still produce minor and major injuries that send the riders and people they run into to the ER.

Please stop whitewashing incidents and the behavior of the scooterists.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by vkou on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:30PM (#33410353)
Just because you've banned scooters doesn't mean the morons operating them went away, or stopped traveling.

And I'd much rather deal with a moron on a scooter than a moron in a car. I'd daresay that statistics on both deaths and injuries caused by alternative modes of transportation are with me on this.

I mean, I get it. Scooters are a little scary and annoying and take up space. People don't like them.

All these same criticisms apply for cars, but dialed up to 11.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by trgn on Monday October 31, 2022 @03:49PM (#33411838)
Damn, I wish I could upvote twice.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by Sakos on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:02PM (#33409881)
I own my own escooter and I do give a shit. Don't lump us all in together. I think people who own escooters are far more conscientious than people using rentals, and I believe a better solution is to incentivize private ownership.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by noneeeed on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:08PM (#33408909)
We have a rental scheme in Bath which seems to be working pretty well. You are supposed to leave them at designated spots around the city (I think you get a discount) and on the whole people seem to be pretty good about where they leave them.

While I don't personally like the idea of using one (I prefer a bike or walking), they have been really popular.

One of the interesting effects is that along with a huge surge in ebike riders, scooters have made drivers much more alert to non-car road users. Cyclist friends have told me that cycling around town feels much safer, with drivers giving them more room, and fewer moments where it's obvious the driver just wasn't paying attention.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by bombcar on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:50PM (#33409701)
Your second point is huge - pedestrian fatalities go down the more pedestrians ignore "traffic rules" - partially because the pedestrians are more alert (not assuming a crosswalk will save them, because there may be none) but also because drivers are more alert.

The unexpected is always going to be dangerous just because it's unexpected.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by stuaxo on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:09PM (#33408918)
Sounds like you need segregated cycle lanes for then to ride on.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by TrueGeek on Monday October 31, 2022 @03:15PM (#33411192)
We’ve started to get some in Atlanta, but only in the center of town. I live out in the suburbs. I haven’t been able to try them out yet because the every time I’ve ridden into town the lane was filled with half a dozen delivery vans.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by H1Supreme on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:13PM (#33409021)
> The way electric scooters were handled in Atlanta was an absolute nightmare

Is there an example of a city who has handled them correctly? Your description describes every implementation I've seen thus far.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by rockinghigh on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:24PM (#33409255)
Zurich and to some extent Paris. The key is to have bike lanes and designated areas where the scooters can be dropped.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by monksy on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:38PM (#33409495)
Chicago has both of these, but it doesn't stop people from still riding them on the sidewalk and acting terrible.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by dr_dshiv on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:18PM (#33409123)
Paris and rome are great examples from my perspective.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by lm28469 on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:27PM (#33409318)
> Paris

With 2000 escooter accidents and 20+ deaths idk if we can call it a great example

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by CydeWeys on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:40PM (#33409526)
Now do car deaths. If 20 is the threshold for failure then get all those cars off the roads immediately.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by lm28469 on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:42PM (#33409559)
Well, yes go ahead I won't argue against that

edit:

I checked the numbers, ~6000 accidents, ~40 deaths

Knowing that it includes escooters as they're motorised vehicles, and given the number of cars vs escooters I'd say you're muuuuch more likely to get wrecked on a escooter than anything else you could use on the road. Bicycles have the same deaths stats as escooters but in Paris we have

450k+ cars 500k+ bikes 15k escooters

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by CydeWeys on Tuesday November 01, 2022 @11:02AM (#33422157)
Wow, I'm surprised the annual car deaths in Paris are so low. Your vehicles are much better behaved than they are in the US, where car deaths are rampant. NYC for instance experiences >200 deaths caused by cars/trucks every year, and that's a relatively low rate relative to our population size compared to basically any other large American city (all of which are much more car-dependent).
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by MichaelZuo on Wednesday November 02, 2022 @10:07AM (#33436007)
Wow so e-scooters in Paris are net negative for society.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by sokoloff on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:47PM (#33409644)
Over what period of time? In a year, those numbers don't strike me as terrible and would need to be compared against the alternatives to draw a directionally valid conclusion.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by Bluecobra on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:43PM (#33409565)
They don't seem to be an issue in Chicago at least from my perspective. It wasn't a free for all though, they had two pilot programs and they are banned from the downtown/Loop area which is the highest density area of the city. Scooters must be attached to a fixed object like a light pole/street sign/etc. Also it helps that Divvy (Lyft) retrofitted their bicycle docks to allow scooter docking as well.

https://blockclubchicago.org/2022/05/10/electric-scooters-ar...

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by pmyteh on Monday October 31, 2022 @05:07PM (#33413158)
Seems basically fine in Liverpool. I've not used them, but they don't seem to block pavements and I've only ever seen a few driven by loons. Certainly never felt at risk as a pedestrian or cyclist by one.

Their popularity has killed off a previous bike hire scheme, which is a bit of a pity, but they are a lot handier...

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by JumpCrisscross on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:17PM (#33409099)
I've visited Atlanta from time to time and enjoyed using the scooters. This time I was entirely in Ubers and Lyfts. That said, I remember finding the scooters littered everywhere. Combined with their neon color schemes, I get the eye sore complaint.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by jeffbee on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:11PM (#33408979)
You can say each of those things about cars and it is equally true. You're just acclimated to it.

  Parked on sidewalks: yes
  Blocking crowded streets: yes
  Collisions common: yes
  People getting hurt: yes
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by andirk on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:21PM (#33409169)
Cars/trucks do an extra special addition though: park in a lane because you're delivering something, or, ya know, doing something outside of the vehicle.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by matsemann on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:35PM (#33409447)
I've reported hundreds of cars parking in the bicycle lane this year alone..
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by bombcar on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:53PM (#33409745)
Has anything happened from it?
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by matsemann on Monday October 31, 2022 @03:44PM (#33411721)
Some news articles from me and other activists doing stuff has led to it becoming a higher priority in the department. So twice as many ticketed for it this year than earlier years in my city.

Still, the problem is that it's possible. Paint isn't infrastructure.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by nirvdrum on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:55PM (#33409777)
Do cars collide with people on sidewalks that frequently?
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by jeffbee on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:33PM (#33410413)
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by nirvdrum on Monday October 31, 2022 @03:10PM (#33411115)
I was questioning the claim that cars hit people as frequently as scooters do on sidewalks. It seemed unlikely to me, but I don't live in a major city. I appreciate you taking the time to share links. I read each and they're sad stories, particularly the one involving a child that was hit by a vehicle pulling into a driveway. I think it's pretty undeniable that car accidents will be more fatal than electric scooters, but that was never really a question.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by Overtonwindow on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:08PM (#33408910)
From a visitors perspective, I flew down for two days at the state capital, and used a scooter liberally riding around downtown, and the campus of Georgia state university. I did not see the littering of sidewalks at all. I saw people riding scooters in the street, and on the sidewalks, but even with a lot of people I didn’t see anything of what you’re speaking of.

Scooters are great, they are low-cost easy way to get around. I think anger in Atlanta towards the scooters, is similar to why Marta will never go up 75.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by jhoward321 on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:21PM (#33409177)
To be fair, the issue is probably not going to be as evident downtown. Go over to the east side in old fourth ward or inman park and I think you'd have come to a different conclusion.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by stall84 on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:25PM (#33409262)
people are still throwing them wherever they die.. I feel awful for the workers that go by at night to find/recharge them when I see them strewn in the most inexplicably-off-sidewalk locations in piedmont park, etc.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by dTal on Monday October 31, 2022 @07:05PM (#33414594)
Why do you feel awful for the workers, particularly? I assume they are hired to do exactly that? As jobs go it doesn't sound too terrible.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by prepend on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:27PM (#33409322)
There’s very little pedestrian traffic in Atlanta so the sidewalk riding didn’t bother me.

This is also a city where the police have done nothing to stop people riding go carts and stuff on the streets disrupting traffic and hurting people. Or tent clusters on sidewalks and off ramps.

So it was weird they banned scooters and allow things with no benefit to the city.

There’s also an angle that the city is really big on pushing their boondoggle public transport streetcar project and didn’t like cheaper and more environmentally friendly options available for the public.

I think Atlanta banned the scooters because the companies didn’t pay off the right locals. They could have tried to fix the issues and work with the scooter companies.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by gedy on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:39PM (#33410530)
> pushing their boondoggle public transport streetcar project and didn’t like cheaper and more environmentally friendly options available for the public.

Yeah I wish more people would recognize this. Many "transit activists" are basically just lobbyists for the regional MTA/MTDs and want to minimize competition.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by e40 on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:49PM (#33409681)
The son of my best friend face planted and had to have facial reconstructive surgery after a crash.

The year before the pandemic I spent each day on my walk to/from work arguing with scooter drivers about them being on the sidewalk and how dangerous it was. A child was hit by one in my area and seriously hurt.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by maerF0x0 on Monday October 31, 2022 @01:56PM (#33409782)
Ive always wondered how electric scooters would fare if they were speed limited. Something like 6-9MPH (~15km/hr) . It's still much much faster than walking, but still about 1/2 the top speed currently observed.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by kqr on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:08PM (#33409985)
This seems like a good general solution. Cars should be capped to similar speeds in dense areas! Especially given their large mass.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by NickC25 on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:18PM (#33410131)
That was the case when scooters were brought back in Miami after initially being banned.

It was a terrible idea, because the city had 2 mandates to allow them to come back - 1. Speed caps (10mph), and 2. mandating that all scooters were banned from sidewalks.

If you know anything about how terrible Miami drivers are, you'll quickly realize that those mandates were designed to make the scooter idea fail. Forcing someone to go 10mph on a busy multi-lane road known for bad drivers is a death wish.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by Sakos on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:03PM (#33409899)
This is pretty much the case all across Europe, where they're limited to 20-25km/h.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by NickC25 on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:02PM (#33409879)
Same thing happened in Miami - it was a great idea to have them because it really did help relieve congestion amongst the downtown and financial districts.

Then they got banned because people are idiots and rode them idiotically and left them everywhere.

The city then brought them back, put caps on their speed, forced them to be rode only on streets and financially incentivized people to leave them in predetermined drop-off areas. It lasted about 2 weeks before that was shown to not work, because, again, people didn't really pay attention to the rules (and some of the rules, such as banning them from sidewalks, are outright dumb due to the fact that dangerous wild driving on main roads is celebrated in Miami).

It really is unfortunate just like you said - because they were a real asset to public mobility.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by StillBored on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:22PM (#33410208)
What I don't understand is why its so hard to have designated drop off points every block or so. The scooter vendors should be responsible for putting them in appropriate places (which might mean renting the space if needed).

Then use some geofencing to fine people who fail to park/etc them properly.

Sure, allowing people to drop them off in the middle of a congested sidewalk is easy on the asshole doing it, and the companies might have a bit less revenue because its inconvenient to park them properly, but so what. They might be able to make some percentage of the fine back if people still refuse to comply.

The sidewalk is public space, they have _LESS_ rights as a corp to be there trying to profit off it than the citizens walking the sidewalk IMHO.

Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by smileysteve on Monday October 31, 2022 @06:42PM (#33414351)
The ire towards Marta in Atlanta would be significantly less if there were cutouts for buses (Ubers or delivery vehicles) at all.
Re:Electric scooter ban increased congestion by 10% in Atlanta by smileysteve on Monday October 31, 2022 @05:48PM (#33413742)
The minimum outcome (after deaths) should have been that Crescent and N Highland bar districts closed to through traffic weekend nights after 9 (and after sporting events), and all public transit buses get 360 degree cameras.

Instead, we have bars (RiRa and Hand In Hand were unable to afford leases pre pandemic) shutting down, street drifters, crime, and significant amounts of drunk driving.