News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by arnvald on Friday September 23, 2022 @03:45PM (#32956222)
They're right, recently I've installed some Windows update for my parents and I had to reject like 5 suggested changes - installing Office trial, switching default browser to Edge yet again, and more.

But this goes way beyond the browsers - I've never explicitly installed Keychain on my iphone and yet it shows as an option next to 1password every time I fill in a password field. Google calendar asks me to install an app every time I open a web version on my phone, my work laptop has 1 active notification in system settings for a year because I didn't enable iCloud backup.

I'm not sure what's the solution here. I stick to the apps I use because I know what I'm doing, but so many users will just click "yes" when shown a pop-up. On the other hand, the built-in integrations provide value (e.g. it's better that people use and save random passwords in Keychain than using the same one everywhere). I feel it's always a cat-and-mouse game where the big tech is punished after they've already gained a lot, so they win anyway.

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by ht85 on Friday September 23, 2022 @06:07PM (#32957687)
The win11 / Edge bullshit finally pushed me to migrate my last win machine to linux. I used to love Windows, nowadays it just makes me bitter. Do you know typing "torrent" in the start menu doesn't find "qbittorrent"? In 2022. It sums it all.

And the acquisitions...

I've had countless minecraft sessions ruined because of microsoft account / store issues. Don't even get me started on realms and the chat policing bullshit.

Github new PR review UI is great on paper yet completely useless to review large PR because of performance issues.

It took me one month to upgrade a zoom account to pro because the checkout would just show a blank page. Oh and I can't stay signed in on zoom.us because I disable "Functional Cookies", yet that's the only website that's ever had an issue, and I'm not using a hardened setup, just vanilla FF.

So much for the modern, developer and open source-friendly narrative.

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by foepys on Friday September 23, 2022 @10:52PM (#32959347)
> Do you know typing "torrent" in the start menu doesn't find "qbittorrent"? In 2022. It sums it all.

It's even worse. I want to open Notepad++ and begin to type

N -> notepad.exe

No -> notepad.exe

Not -> Notepad++

Note -> notepad.exe

Notep -> Notepad++

Notepa -> Notepad++

Notepad -> notepad.exe

The times I actually wanted to open notepad.exe is exactly 0 but the stupid algorithm sees me mistakenly opening notepad.exe because of the aforementioned stupid algorithm and recommends it even more often. It's like it's designed to create the most annoying search experience possible.

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by aeharding on Friday September 23, 2022 @11:09PM (#32959411)
Ugh, Apple is guilty of this too in spotlight search. Actually worse, because it randomly changes after maybe 500ms, randomly, after typing a character, sometimes.

  N    -> OneNote.app
       -> Then (maybe) quickly changes to Notes
  No   -> Notes.app
       -> Then (maybe) changes to OneNote
  Not  -> OneNote.app
  Note -> Notes.app
etc
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by climb_stealth on Saturday September 24, 2022 @04:23AM (#32960710)
I'd say the way around it is to install Alfred [0] and be done with it. Just have to disable the web search option. Because no, I did not want to open a browser and search for "norepad", I just fat fingered it. Luckily once disabled it works just right.

[0] https://www.alfredapp.com/

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by dmitriid on Saturday September 24, 2022 @03:54AM (#32960568)
That one is at least malleable. Suffer through invalid suggestions, wait, select the one you need, and after 10 or so attempts it finally learns that you always want that particular app as your first choice.

At least that's how it was before. I wouldn't be surprised if they broke it.

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by ayewo on Saturday September 24, 2022 @05:59AM (#32961154)
There's also Raycast [1], which is a f-r-e-e VC-funded alternative to Alfred that was mentioned by a sibling comment.

1: https://www.raycast.com/

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by jrockway on Saturday September 24, 2022 @03:10AM (#32960335)
At least you guys have software conflicts. I try to run "runemacs.exe" (I have no idea how you're supposed to run Emacs on Windows, but that's what I do), and it's:

R -> "R, the project for statistical computing" (fair I suppose)

Ru -> Run (what is "run"? It's that little dialog box from Windows 3.1 where you can type in an executable to run)

Run -> Run

Rune -> RuneScape (not something I have installed)

Runem -> Some Hearthstone game file

Runemac -> Search results for "run amok".

Runemacs -> Hey the thing!

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by ringer on Saturday September 24, 2022 @04:53AM (#32960854)
> Ru -> Run (what is "run"? It's that little dialog box from Windows 3.1 where you can type in an executable to run)

This is the best. It opens immediately, no animations, ads, etc. I have a .bin folder in my home dir with full off shortcuts, this folder added to the $PATH so I just need to type my shortcuts to open any app.

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by moogly on Saturday September 24, 2022 @05:43AM (#32961063)
Solid protip. Been doing the same since Windows 98.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by Timwi on Saturday September 24, 2022 @08:18AM (#32961817)
Same here, and it baffles me how people don't immediately want this when they see it on my screen.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by ziml77 on Saturday September 24, 2022 @07:13AM (#32961466)
It sounds like you're trying to run an executable that's on your PATH. The start menu search does not apply fuzzy search to locations in the PATH environment variable (reasonably so, most of it is either going to be command line tools that need additional arguments and spawn a console window that instantly disappears or just junk that most users don't care about).

If you want fuzzy searching to work, add a shortcut in the start menu for runemacs by placing the shortcut in %APPDATA%\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by alexvoda on Saturday September 24, 2022 @04:32AM (#32960756)
Apparently Powertoys Run does all of this correctly. It's also made by MS and its a QuickSilver/Alfred/KRunnrr/etc. style launcer.

This makes it even more inexcusable for the default Windows behaviour to be stupid.

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by ygra on Saturday September 24, 2022 @04:24AM (#32960711)
It gets a lot better when you turn of web searches for the start menu search. Perhaps some people like having a single place to search for applications to run, documents on their PC, and things on the web. But I'm not one of them, and it slows down the search as well.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by thereisnospork on Saturday September 24, 2022 @01:54AM (#32960032)
It's also slow[0], or not properly cached. Half the time I bang out 'c-m-d-<enter>' to open a command prompt and I either get nothing or a program that doesn't contain any of 'c' 'm' or 'd' in its name. Which is aggravating because the 'Win then type the first 3ish letters of the program you want then hit enter to open it' workflow is so good[0] but MS makes it hard to be smooth and repeatable with it.

[0]Honestly how? I have 32GB of ram, the name and directory of every program I've ever run probably fits in 100kB. You could even presort the list by the first two possible letters (26^2) at a tolerable memory usage.

[1]To my tastes anyway.

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by Akronymus on Saturday September 24, 2022 @08:35AM (#32961929)
"everything" by voidtools could be to your liking.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by rhdunn on Saturday September 24, 2022 @01:54AM (#32960028)
I think that's down to the way it has remembered/saved your search as I get a similar behaviour with "Camera" and "Turn off camera access systemwide" -- "c", "ca", and "came" suggest the Camera app and "cam", "camer", and "camera" suggest the system setting.

I use both of these, and it looks like Windows has remembered I select one or the other at a given point, so is saving that suggestion.

It also likely has built in associations for the default applications (notepad, camera, etc.) that you've overridden by selecting notepad++ at those points. If you select/locate notepad++ at the other positions, I wonder if it will start suggesting that instead.

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by hyperman1 on Saturday September 24, 2022 @03:56PM (#32966063)
The notepad++ wiki has a trick for replacing notepad with np++. It basically installs np++ as a debugger for np.

I would be completely happy if my win10 stopped deciding I really want to search the word notepad on the internet with edge/bing

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by graftak on Saturday September 24, 2022 @03:51AM (#32960554)
I had the same dance with Google search for a while with their top result for “tsplayground”.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by pklo on Saturday September 24, 2022 @03:58AM (#32960584)
Can you just replace notepad.exe with a link to notepad++?
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by MichaelCollins on Friday September 23, 2022 @06:39PM (#32957921)
> The win11 / Edge bullshit finally pushed me to migrate my last win machine to linux. I used to love Windows, nowadays it just makes me bitter. Do you know typing "torrent" in the start menu doesn't find "qbittorrent"? In 2022. It sums it all.

Heh, try KDE's KRunner. I type 'kt' and it matches ktorrent. But if I type 'kto' it switches to matching "Desktop 8". 'ktor' once again matches ktorrent.

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by bryanlarsen on Friday September 23, 2022 @07:54PM (#32958453)
That's a common autocomplete behaviour. It's trying to be helpful. If you actually wanted ktorrent, you probably would have selected ktorrent on 'kt'. By typing another letter you're hinting you might want something other than ktorrent. Not sure if I agree with the behaviour, but I understand it.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by wolpoli on Friday September 23, 2022 @08:19PM (#32958622)
That is a good explanation. The behavior is reasonable if we all type one character at a time, wait for the list of suggestions to update and stabilize, and review the list before typing the next character. Unfortunately, some of us are impatient and just type a bunch of characters at once. But I understand the type of audience the designers are going after.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by registeredcorn on Friday September 23, 2022 @09:42PM (#32959042)
Here's one I'm quickly finding tedious in Fedora:

"Chery"

I'm misspelling CherryTree.

Instead of getting note taking software, VLC starts playing "11 - Pulmonary Archery (Explicit).flac"

This is annoying not just because it's not what I wanted, but also because I already have music playing, music which is now abruptly cut off.

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by bmicraft on Friday September 23, 2022 @10:36PM (#32959278)
You can turn individual krunner plugins off, like "Recent files".
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by Tyr42 on Friday September 23, 2022 @08:29PM (#32958679)
Thanks, I just thought it was broken.

I hate this behaviour, as I'm usually looking as my fingers type the last bit, and if I keep adding matching letters, please don't change?

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by dpkirchner on Friday September 23, 2022 @08:54PM (#32958796)
It's definitely broken, but apparently by design. It's a deliberbug.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by sshine on Friday September 23, 2022 @10:36PM (#32959276)
Microsoft is full of those.

When you enter your birthday during Windows installation (yes, you have to have a Microsoft network account to log in to your own computer, and you have to supply a birthday), the button for confirming the date is a small, grey checkmark hiding below the date picker. Clicking the big, blue “Continue” button in the lower corner will discard your date choice (since it wasn’t picked) and then fail form validation because you didn’t pick a date.

There is a certain cubicle masochism associated with this kind of system. I’m convinced that computers did not get easier to use since all of them had command prompts. But you know, it’s got windows!

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by tssva on Friday September 23, 2022 @10:46PM (#32959323)
I login to Win11 everyday and don't have a Microsoft account.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by tinus_hn on Friday September 23, 2022 @10:47PM (#32959329)
You don’t have to use a Microsoft account if you’re installing Windows 10 and it doesn’t have an internet connection when you run the wizard.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by puzzledobserver on Saturday September 24, 2022 @12:22AM (#32959716)
To install Windows 11 without a Microsoft account involves bringing up a command prompt in the middle of the installation process and typing some magic incantations. It's clearly not what Microsoft wants users to be doing.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by rhdunn on Saturday September 24, 2022 @01:59AM (#32960044)
I got Windows 11 Pro on my new machine for the sole purpose of avoiding that BS (and have it running without an account), but now you can't even do that on new installs without those workarounds. It's a dark pattern akin to Amazon trying to get you to use Amazon Prime when purchasing something on Amazon.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by moogly on Saturday September 24, 2022 @05:45AM (#32961075)
FWIW I didn't have to do this on a Lenovo Thinkpad that I installed last month.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by MichaelCollins on Friday September 23, 2022 @08:09PM (#32958555)
I guess I get it, but it doesn't work well for me. By the time I recognize the ktorrent icon and hit enter, my fingers have already typed the next letter. With this system I have to deliberately pause pressing enter.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by ht85 on Friday September 23, 2022 @08:08PM (#32958551)
Thank you, sorry my message was misleading, I was talking about the windows start menu. KDE / Gnome / Mate work as expected afaik!
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by LtWorf on Friday September 23, 2022 @07:29PM (#32958286)
Sounds like you want trabucco! https://github.com/ltworf/trabucco
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by thfuran on Friday September 23, 2022 @06:42PM (#32957954)
That sounds about like m experience trying to open intellij in windows.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by userbinator on Friday September 23, 2022 @09:51PM (#32959081)
So much for the modern, developer and open source-friendly narrative

That's exactly what it is: encouraging "developers", some of whom IMHO shouldn't even be writing software, to indulge in "coding" while completely ignoring and antagonising the user perspective. Countless users' workflows just broken with no recourse just because some selfish bastard wanted to use something "new and different" without considering the wider effects. When the culture only cares about promoting new and shiny tools/frameworks/etc. to developers and feeding their appetite for otherwise useless things, and in doing so, forsakes the original purpose of software, this is the result.

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by hparadiz on Friday September 23, 2022 @11:52PM (#32959604)
This is my experience as well. All I want is a solid block task bar and solid black window title bars. Since Windows 7 it's become next to impossible to do that without uxtheme.dll patchers. I'm done. Linux all the way now.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by epolanski on Friday September 23, 2022 @08:15PM (#32958607)
Oddly enough I can't find a better programming environment nowadays than the win, wsl, powertools combo. I noticed the same about qbittorrent tho.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by ht85 on Friday September 23, 2022 @08:30PM (#32958686)
I don't know... everything works so well on linux out of the box nowadays, and over time you can setup everything exactly as you want.

As an engineer I feel like it's a great investment and loving my setup has a big impact on the enjoyment I get from work.

If you spend the time, can all the annoying stuff be turned off in Windows?

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by doubled112 on Friday September 23, 2022 @08:41PM (#32958739)
I loved my Linux setups so much I automated them with some Ansible and a bunch of scripts and config files in a git repo to set up my user profile too.

I can't seem to get two Windows installs to be functionally identical the same way. I also can't believe winget is a relatively new invention.

You can turn off most of the annoying stuff, for a time. I'm convinced that sometimes settings just change on their own.

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by yazantapuz on Friday September 23, 2022 @09:01PM (#32958836)
A couple of days ago, I give a very brief workshop of Arduino. All the students with Linux boxes have some kind of problems, like the user was not a member of the dialout group or the group does not exist at all. I still prefer Linux, but no everything works "out of the box".
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by lelanthran on Saturday September 24, 2022 @01:18AM (#32959907)
> All the students with Linux boxes have some kind of problems, like the user was not a member of the dialout group or the group does not exist at all. I still prefer Linux, but no everything works "out of the box".

This (requiring elevated privileges) is a very niche thing, though (raw access to the serial port).

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by yazantapuz on Saturday September 24, 2022 @02:09PM (#32965160)
But the students with Windows laptops did not have these kind of problems. Although I can think of a lot of issues, in this "very niche thing" Windows worked "out of the box" and Linux didn't.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by lelanthran on Saturday September 24, 2022 @04:10PM (#32966155)
> But the students with Windows laptops did not have these kind of problems. Although I can think of a lot of issues, in this "very niche thing" Windows worked "out of the box" and Linux didn't.

Yes, for this very niche thing Windows works out the box. For other not so niche things, Linux works out the box. For the not so niche thing of "set up a LAMP stack" and similar, Windows is pretty poor at it, compared to using apt-get.

Also, for this very niche thing, I'm pretty certain that the arduino IDE I installed from the repository worked out the box for serial port access.

I'm guessing that you pretended the Linux boxes were Windows, and installed on Linux by downloading it off the arduino distribution site?

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by yazantapuz on Saturday September 24, 2022 @04:24PM (#32966255)
> I'm guessing that you pretended the Linux boxes were Windows, and installed on Linux by downloading it off the arduino distribution site?

Yes, that was a mistake. But it was not as simple as saying "install from apt-get" because some where using Arch-based distros (pacman), a few were using Fedora (yum) and others Ubuntu. Even so, not always that the user is added to the right group. Also, we wanted to show the new 2.0 IDE.

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by CoolCold on Saturday September 24, 2022 @03:44PM (#32965968)
I hardly remember doing any kind of special fighting or annoying stuff. What's your pain points here?

Had some issues after Win10->Win11 beta Insider build updates, but that's other story.

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by epolanski on Monday September 26, 2022 @06:05AM (#32981229)
I don't really notice the annoying stuff.

Win + WSL gives you both Linux and Windows tools at your disposal.

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by leetcrew on Friday September 23, 2022 @09:32PM (#32958991)
I'm one of those weird people that genuinely enjoys using windows as my main OS. vc++ and c# stuff is very nice on that OS, but I still feel like wsl is a bit like shoving a square peg into a round hole. too often, things that "just work" on a full-fledged linux install fail on wsl for some obscure reason.

my solution is to use windows for GUI things, and a remote linux instance for actual building/running/deploying services. vs code server is really nice for this, you can essentially run it as a GUI thin client locally that controls a headless remote that does all the heavy lifting. it's pretty seamless if you're willing to accept that you need a network connection to get any work done.

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by sshine on Friday September 23, 2022 @10:41PM (#32959298)
Is running a VirtualBox and sharing the work folder too slow?
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by leetcrew on Friday September 23, 2022 @11:27PM (#32959497)
probably not for most use cases, but I build some fairly large projects. it's nice to interact with a 16C/32T xeon node through an ultrabook. downloading tools/assets runs at the speed of the datacenter link rather than coffeeshop wifi. if nothing else, my battery lasts longer this way.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by sshine on Friday September 23, 2022 @10:38PM (#32959283)
Ubuntu + VSCode?

Not sure where powertools come in, but I’m personally agnostic wrt. shell scripting flavours.

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by CoolCold on Saturday September 24, 2022 @03:39PM (#32965913)
PowerToys may be? I'm using it with couple of plug-ins

1) find my mouse

2) search through windows titles (I tend to have 15-30 terminals with ssh)

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by NayamAmarshe on Saturday September 24, 2022 @06:46AM (#32961331)
I moved away from Windows for the same reason. Edge is a highly anti-competitive and privacy invasive browser. I'm surprised people don't care as long as the data exploitation is not directly visible to them.

Not to mention their new loan scams. Edge is a spyware/adware first and browser second.

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by zvrba on Saturday September 24, 2022 @02:22AM (#32960124)
I don't get the hate on Edge. I use it daily and am very happy. Not the least, it includes some cool security features, i.e., sandboxing at the OS-level https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/security/threat-pr...
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by yellowapple on Saturday September 24, 2022 @04:19AM (#32960682)
As far as Chrome and its myriad knockoffs go, I'd say Edge is probably the least bad. It at least works as a browser, and it's among the few that has an option for a vertical tab bar instead of shoving all the tabs into the top and squishing them together into teeny tiny slivers like an absolute fucking maniac.

I still prefer Firefox, though.

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by justinclift on Saturday September 24, 2022 @02:43AM (#32960216)
Perhaps because it's being forced down people's throats, rather than people being able to make their own choice?
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by NayamAmarshe on Saturday September 24, 2022 @06:42AM (#32961322)
All those security features with 0 privacy. Refer: https://www.scss.tcd.ie/Doug.Leith/pubs/browser_privacy.pdf

The research concluded that Microsoft Edge is the most invasive, along with Yandex.

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by nmz on Friday September 23, 2022 @07:43PM (#32958385)
I used to solve this by just installing another launcher. there were some good ones around, they should still work I hope.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by trinsic2 on Saturday September 24, 2022 @08:38AM (#32961961)
Yea before I switched to PopOS due to the Windows 11 online account/edge browser fiasco I used the launcher "Executor[0]". Exectuor is by far the most powerful launcher I have ever used, to bad there isn't a launcher in Linux that has all of the features.

[0]: https://executor.dk/

If you want to read the specifics of my transition to Linux: https://www.scottrlarson.com/publications/publication-transi...

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by ht85 on Friday September 23, 2022 @08:06PM (#32958530)
Yeah, for those interested PolyMC works well on linux. It's a bit rough around the edges, but a diamond nonetheless compared to the official launcher.

Another anecdote is that minecraft 1.19 doesn't work on Ubuntu 18, as it uses glibc 2.29. D:

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by dhalucario on Friday September 23, 2022 @08:30PM (#32958685)
Weird, I am on Fedora and have none of the issues.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by osel on Friday September 23, 2022 @05:21PM (#32957231)
You can remove the 'iCloud' notification by starting the setup for it, and then cancelling.

It's a dark pattern Apple repeats with a lot of notifications - they are not dismissible and give the appearance they are only resolvable by completing the notified request, but it actuality just starting the setup and then cancelling will resolve it.

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by tsimionescu on Friday September 23, 2022 @11:34PM (#32959528)
Honestly that sounds more like a dark pattern (advertising "notifications" you can't dismiss) + what they would consider a bug (dismissing the adware on installation start instead of finish).
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by dmitriid on Friday September 23, 2022 @05:24PM (#32957269)
Apple has become a parody of itself. A decade ago they were mocking Windows for the abundance of notifications. And now...
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by smoldesu on Friday September 23, 2022 @06:20PM (#32957772)
Try the new Safari!
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by sbf501 on Friday September 23, 2022 @07:15PM (#32958182)
"Try Apple Arcade for Three Months Free"

Inside the *CONTROL PANEL* of the latest iOS.

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by GoOnThenDoTell on Saturday September 24, 2022 @01:08AM (#32959878)
It’s a straight up manipulation of people who don’t know the trick. They should be shamed for it
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by ThatMedicIsASpy on Friday September 23, 2022 @04:13PM (#32956505)
Go to Settings (Win+I) -> System -> Notifications & actions

[ ] Show me the Windows welcome experience after updates ...

[ ] Suggest ways I can finish setting up my device ...

[ ] Get tips, tricks, ...

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by philipov on Friday September 23, 2022 @04:54PM (#32956927)
what's the corresponding setting on an iphone? I have the same permanent notification because I refused to use icloud.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by emkoemko on Friday September 23, 2022 @04:54PM (#32956928)
just use Linux you get none of this nonsense
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by pipeline_peak on Friday September 23, 2022 @05:17PM (#32957189)
“just” use Linux
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by ok_dad on Friday September 23, 2022 @05:51PM (#32957545)
That’s how easy it is these days.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by makeitdouble on Saturday September 24, 2022 @12:46AM (#32959803)
The year of linux on desktop finally
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by hunter-gatherer on Friday September 23, 2022 @05:04PM (#32957040)
This.
[dead]
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by emkoemko on Friday September 23, 2022 @05:28PM (#32957332)
zealot? this is why i switched... so many times i need my computer just to work when turned on but with Microsoft you have to wait for a mandatory update and then have to jump through hoops like we are installing windows software that you have to remember to unchecked all the stupid extra crap they will install on your computer vs just having a single place for all your software and where it all gets updated from.

this person complained about it and switching to Linux would solve their problem

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by svnpenn on Friday September 23, 2022 @05:17PM (#32957188)
> Wow, zealot much?

someone makes a single, half sentence including the word Linux, and now they are a Zealot? Calm down dude.

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by Mountain_Skies on Friday September 23, 2022 @05:34PM (#32957390)
Telling someone to just use Linux comes from a position of privilege. Not everyone is tech savvy (no, I don't care about your grandma being able to write her own video drivers) and many people must use software that's not available on Linux. No, the open source version isn't the same thing and saying "just use WINE" is once again coming from a position of privilege. Overall, telling people to just use Linux is one that lacks empathy for individual circumstances.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by svnpenn on Friday September 23, 2022 @10:32PM (#32959266)
even if everything you said is true (and thats a stretch), what does that have to do with the person calling the other a zealot for using the word Linux?

It seems by your logic, calling a Linux user a zealot is fine. Also by your logic, if someone casually suggests trying Linux, then that person is abusing their privilege and lacks empathy.

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by 9dev on Saturday September 24, 2022 @01:54AM (#32960029)
Zealot: „a person who is fanatical and uncompromising in pursuit of their religious, political, or other ideals.“

Calling someone who says „just use Linux“ from a position of privilege due to a lot of domain knowledge, and therefore being uncompromising, does make sense though.

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by pipeline_peak on Friday September 23, 2022 @05:29PM (#32957348)
Telling someone they should personally use Linux to avoid technical problems is kind of annoying lol.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by weikju on Friday September 23, 2022 @03:50PM (#32956284)
Regarding keychain for password filling, you can choose to disable it in the settings -> passwords -> options. It’s selected by default but if you tap it it will deselect it.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by Wowfunhappy on Friday September 23, 2022 @04:26PM (#32956637)
It would be nice if it disabled itself when another password manager is installed...
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by pwinnski on Friday September 23, 2022 @06:59PM (#32958070)
Oh, please don't! I use both 1Password and keychain for different purposes, and I want access to both. I definitely don't want keychain silently disabling itself just because I installed 1Password!
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by blooalien on Friday September 23, 2022 @04:30PM (#32956715)
Or at least asked you outright when installing a new one; "Please choose a default app to perform this function: Password Management" and then show you a list of currently installed ones (+ the newly installed one of course)…
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by diebeforei485 on Saturday September 24, 2022 @01:30AM (#32959950)
Problem is, lots of users have work and personal passwords in different apps.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by birdyrooster on Friday September 23, 2022 @04:30PM (#32956716)
Many of us use more than one (especially shared use with work) and the default behavior seems correct.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by themadturk on Friday September 23, 2022 @05:01PM (#32957001)
I actually use both Keychain and LastPass. They are more or less in synch. I need LastPass (or at least another non-Keychain alternative) because I don't just work in the Apple ecosystem, but I use Keychain as well because it is very convenient when I'm on an Apple device.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by diebeforei485 on Saturday September 24, 2022 @01:29AM (#32959947)
There are people who have their personal passwords in iCloud Keychain, and have work credentials/keys in 1Password.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by oreilles on Friday September 23, 2022 @05:37PM (#32957421)
Keychain is opt-in, users choose wether they want to use it or not when configuring their iPhone for the first time.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by Wowfunhappy on Friday September 23, 2022 @05:49PM (#32957522)
Not in my experience. I never turn it on (because I want to use Bitwarden), but Safari always offers to save passwords unless I manually disable it.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by JimDabell on Saturday September 24, 2022 @01:40AM (#32959980)
There are three different things here:

- The keychain is an essential part of macOS and iOS; if an application wants to securely save data then that is the interface it uses. This is not optional because a huge proportion of applications would break if it were removed.

- iCloud Keychain is the feature of iCloud that syncs your keychain to iCloud. iCloud itself is opt-in, and this particular feature of iCloud is opt-in as well, I think, or at the very least optional even if you use iCloud.

- Safari has a built-in password manager, like every other browser these days. This saves to the keychain, whether that’s synced or not.

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by musicale on Friday September 23, 2022 @07:33PM (#32958318)
> I've never explicitly installed Keychain on my iphone and yet it shows as an option next to 1password every time I fill in a password field

It is worth noting that KeyChain was introduced in Mac OS 8.6 in 1999, and has been part of every version of macOS since then, as well as every version of iOS ever. It's basically the user credential subsystem for Apple operating systems.

As I understand it, 1Password came out in 2006.

When I looked at it last, it seemed that 1Password didn't interoperate well with KeyChain and also required a subscription - decisions which I found unappealing.

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by rlpb on Friday September 23, 2022 @06:12PM (#32957721)
It's also impossible to set up someone less technical with an alternative. The platform will keep prompting them incessantly and in various different ways, and sooner or later they'll switch or activate something by mistake.

It really needs to be possible to say "no means no". But somehow, continuously nagging seems to have become acceptable.

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by encryptluks2 on Friday September 23, 2022 @07:49PM (#32958418)
Not entirely true, but they certainly don't make it simple and I don't think the government will care because they benefit from browsers trying to revert people out of privacy enhancements.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by oreilles on Friday September 23, 2022 @05:40PM (#32957438)
Keychain is opt-in. If you have it configured on your iPhone, it's because you accepted it when configuring your iPhone for the first time. You had to choice to refuse it - and you still have the possibility to disable it in your iPhone settings.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by poglet on Friday September 23, 2022 @06:00PM (#32957636)
It's unclear how it works, I received a prompt in Firefox to save my password, and I thought that it was the Firefox browser that would be saving my password however, it turned out to be keychain. Now the keychain message pops on all the time, I will have a look in the settings to see how to disable it.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by causality0 on Friday September 23, 2022 @07:27PM (#32958270)
I wish I could just mail Microsoft a check and a note that says "I am not a tech ignoramus, stop treating me like your side bitch" and get the same Windows experience I was enjoying a decade ago.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by executesorder66 on Saturday September 24, 2022 @05:15AM (#32960949)
So stop using windows then. The more you use their stuff the more you enable them to pull this kind of crap.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by speed_spread on Friday September 23, 2022 @08:25PM (#32958651)
You can't do that because it's not about money. It's about power.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by avereveard on Friday September 23, 2022 @06:39PM (#32957928)
Also there was an uptake in integrations that open edge irregardless of what your default browser is, like start menu search results if you happen to have web search enabled in it.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by judge2020 on Friday September 23, 2022 @08:25PM (#32958653)
> I've never explicitly installed Keychain on my iphone and yet it shows as an option next to 1password every time I fill in a password field.

It's a system app. You also didn't explicitly install the TV app yet here we are.

Settings -> Passwords -> Password Options -> uncheck iCloud Passwords & Keychain

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by graftak on Saturday September 24, 2022 @03:59AM (#32960591)
When looking for it I went to Settings -> Safari -> Autofill which I’d expect to have it’s own setting for this.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by ouid on Friday September 23, 2022 @05:35PM (#32957403)
Its not really a game of cat and mouse. Law enforcement can seek penalties sufficient to prevent the behavior from proliferating.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by hutzlibu on Saturday September 24, 2022 @03:57AM (#32960577)
And lobbyist groups can prevent, that those fines are too heavy.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by bastardoperator on Friday September 23, 2022 @05:08PM (#32957103)
So, you weren't forced and instead opted out is what you're saying here in your opening sentence?
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by btown on Friday September 23, 2022 @05:20PM (#32957228)
I think the deeper question is: Are you truly being allowed to opt out if you can't disable (or aren't ever prompted to disable without knowing an arcane set of menus) the UI elements (e.g. the aforementioned prompts on password fields, or the prompt to install an app whenever opening the mobile web version of a site) that serve as an advertisement for the specific service?

To be sure, this isn't just restricted to "please install this" dark patterns, and in certain ways it's been central to the ad-supported business model ever since the first television ad was shown on a network channel. But arguably we shouldn't give any of these examples credit for truthfully being "opt out."

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by yjftsjthsd-h on Friday September 23, 2022 @05:27PM (#32957319)
I guess if you define "forced" as "completely 100% impossible to avoid or prevent" then yes. But I think it's reasonable to say that "forced" is acceptable shorthand for "coerced by dark patterns in such a way that 99% of actual users will end up doing what the vendor wants whether they want to or not".
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by encryptluks2 on Friday September 23, 2022 @07:50PM (#32958431)
You get prompted once on Windows unless you use Edge again. I don't think that would be considered force either. Force would be like a prompt on every reboot or whenever you opened Firefox.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by ht85 on Friday September 23, 2022 @08:14PM (#32958593)
That's not true. Major patches all have some dialog full of dark pattern suggesting you browse with the most secure, bestest browser. Within the last year I've had multiple family / friends ask me how to get back to their normal browser, not knowing why Edge was now launching by default whenever they clicked a link.

Edge even has special behavior to show you the same bullshit when you try to download another browser [1] [2]. But no worries, they might get a slap on the wrist for it.

[1] https://www.xda-developers.com/microsoft-edge-chrome-2008/

[2] https://www.debugpoint.com/edge-messages-controversy/

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by dmitriid on Saturday September 24, 2022 @03:59AM (#32960592)
On windows searching from windows search box opens edge, not the default browser. Edge is advertised in the start menu. Etc.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by iggldiggl on Friday September 23, 2022 @05:39PM (#32957431)
For a few things (the one thing I'm familiar with is the lock screen if you've left the "show random pretty pictures" option turned on, but I think there are a few more places besides that) Microsoft does force links to open in Edge instead of the default browser.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by InitialLastName on Friday September 23, 2022 @05:57PM (#32957610)
- Any links from many Microsoft apps (including searches in the Start Menu that silently turn into web searches)

- PDFs (sometimes, even if you don't have Edge set as your default PDF app) (even though Edge is actually the least unusable non-paid PDF viewer for Windows)

Besides that, Edge will randomly reset itself as the default on updates.

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by russnes on Saturday September 24, 2022 @12:45AM (#32959800)
For PDFs you should try this bad boy https://github.com/sumatrapdfreader/sumatrapdf
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by InitialLastName on Saturday September 24, 2022 @03:47PM (#32965998)
Sumatra is a phenomenal viewer, but its annotation management is miles short of the "write directly on the page" convenience that Edge achieves.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by RunSet on Saturday September 24, 2022 @03:31PM (#32965842)
SumatraPDF singlehandedly makes the format readable for me. The alternatives are complete rubbish- in other words, worthy of Adobe.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by cm2187 on Friday September 23, 2022 @05:03PM (#32957033)
Does the default browser matter that much? I mean how often do you click on a link outside of a browser?
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by Osmose on Friday September 23, 2022 @05:07PM (#32957074)
On desktop there's emails, chat apps, etc. On mobile the default browser is often used for the webview within apps, e.g. on Android I have Firefox doing the rendering for webpages inside other apps' UI, which means I can block ads thanks the uBlock Origin.

It happens all the time, for lots of people.

Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by cm2187 on Friday September 23, 2022 @05:12PM (#32957135)
Mobile is different. But on a desktop, most people use webmails, and many chat apps are web based. I barely click any link outside of a browser on a desktop.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by kadoban on Friday September 23, 2022 @05:15PM (#32957166)
I click on links all the time from email (not everyone uses webmail), console, IDE, etc. Enough that yes, it very much matters. Even if not that many links happen, there's 0% chance you wouldn't end up by default using whatever browser it is that opens when you click one.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by kaslai on Friday September 23, 2022 @05:07PM (#32957073)
Every time I click a link in email, IRC, Slack, Discord... At least 100+ times a day, easily.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by ht85 on Friday September 23, 2022 @06:09PM (#32957698)
You're right, it doesn't matter, they spend so much time and take so many risks (and pay so much in fines) to push their own settings for absolutely no reason.
Re:Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to... by dmonitor on Friday September 23, 2022 @05:08PM (#32957102)
You know that handy dandy search bar that Windows has decided will occupy your taskbar?