News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by hbn on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @09:50AM (#32069909)
I've talked about this on HN but I'll say it again.

A couple years ago, after being an Android fan for the better part of a decade, I finally bought myself an iPhone and pried myself away from Google's ecosystem wherever I could. And Apple didn't even need to do any work for me to make this decision. It was the years of abuse from Google that you experience when you decide to use a Google product or service. And a big part of that was the constant A/B/C/D/E/F testing. I never felt like I was using a complete product, everything felt like a constant beta that could be changed or rearranged at any point, and I was just doing free testing work for them while they harvest all my data.

Every app update was a risk of the app rearranging itself, or features appearing/disappearing. Eventually it didn't even come from app updates in the Play Store, and new interfaces would just appear one day when a server somewhere marked your account as being in the group that gets the new UI. This app that you were familiar with could at any point be rearranged when you open it on any given day. Then maybe a week later you open it and it's back to how it was before. A button you thought was here suddenly isn't, and you question whether something actually changed or if you're losing your mind. It's a subtle gaslighting that eventually I couldn't stand any more.

To me, A/B testing means you don't respect your users. You see them as just one factor in your money machine that can be poked and prodded to optimize how much money you can squeeze out of them. That's not to say a company like Apple is creating products out of the goodness of their heart, but at least it feels like it was developed by humans who made an opinionated call as to what they thought was the right design decision, and what they would want to use. And in my 2 years of owning an iPhone, I've never opened my reminders app to find out that it's completely unrecognizable, or my messages app has been renamed or rethemed for the umpteenth time.

Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by costcofries on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @10:08AM (#32070184)
"To me, A/B testing means you don't respect your users. You see them as just one factor in your money machine that can be poked and prodded to optimize how much money you can squeeze out of them. "

Your perspective is extremely short-sighted. A/B testing can result in this type of behaviour but that's just poor A/B testing. Good A/B testing focuses on removing distractions from the experience and helping users derive more value from the product. Bad A/B testing tries to make things more discoverable, where discoverability is often just noise and distractions. Good A/B testing ensures that the money machine, as you put it, pays its dues to users by making the product experience delightful.

Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by manmal on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @02:42PM (#32074084)
UX feedback is usually retrieved via user interviews.

I personally have never heard from a product person „Let’s A/B test whether this is delightful“. And I think that’s because delightfulness or satisfaction is impossible to quantify in A/B tests. You only get to measure things like engagement, signup rates, retention etc. - cold hard taps on the screen, and no more.

And I must say that I‘m glad that, right now, apps can’t just scan my face (or cortisol levels, or pheromones or…) for emotional clues while I read their pesky push notifications that want to coax me back into their daily active user base.

Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by mgraczyk on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @10:25PM (#32078353)
This is not really true. You can pop up surveys in the app or on the site. They can be super non-intrusive. For small effects and large user bases, you simply cannot get useful information from UX studies.
Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by jcelerier on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @01:50PM (#32073451)
> Your perspective is extremely short-sighted.

it's the perspective of the normal users.

every time i'm using a website and it does not behave exactly the same than for other people or I notice some AB testing, in my head it goes "who the fuck these people think they are?". The computing experience must be consistent and repeatable. If I wanted something that can change depending on the current position of the stars I'd ask another human, not a computer.

A/B testing can result in this type of behaviour but that's just poor A/B testing.

Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by drewcoo on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @10:18AM (#32070332)
"You're doing it, but in some subtle but very important way that's not at all obvious to you, you're doing it wrong."

How many tech startup patterns fit that? That's a sign that either the pattern does not generalize well or it's snake oil.

Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by Lutger on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @12:09PM (#32071986)
I don't think so. A/B testing is just not a cure-all and alternative for good design, that is all. I mean, if the pattern is 'don't bother thinking too much about ux, just A/B test everything in PROD to death', then yeah, you are right.

However, there are many products which allow users to enter into a beta or test group, where they are the willing subjects to their experiments (in exchange for the latest shiny new stuff). This has the aspect of consent, leaving the 'stable ring' free of such variability. The fact that google and many startups are not using such consent and offering stability, doesn't mean it can't be done or isn't done.

Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by selfhoster11 on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @12:42PM (#32072486)
> "You're doing it, but in some subtle but very important way that's not at all obvious to you, you're doing it wrong."

Doesn't that exact statement describe how Agile (or many other concepts, really) is used in a lot of companies? There's nothing wrong with it in principle, but practice is all over the place.

Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by costcofries on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @10:21AM (#32070375)
I think of it as validating and improving imperfect user assumptions.
Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by thatguy0900 on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @02:08PM (#32073667)
This reads exactly like parody corporatespeak jargon.
Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by MegaButts on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @04:48PM (#32075474)
Clearly it's the users who are wrong with their stupid assumptions and we will correct them with our mandatory weekly update.
Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by hazz99 on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @10:37PM (#32078449)
Assumptions about the users, not assumptions made by the users.
Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by loriverkutya on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @10:16AM (#32070301)
I never seen an A/B test where the goal was not to maximise profit for the company.
Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by dotecoffee on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @07:23PM (#32077097)
Have you ever seen "you've already bought this" on Amazon? Highly tested, reduced sales. Overruled by judgement. Stayed on the site. AB test results don't mean you leave your judgement behind.
Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by iudqnolq on Wednesday July 13, 2022 @12:27AM (#32079046)
Maybe. I find that very useful when I'm trying to buy the same thing again. It acts as a trust marker.

I do wish they kept better historic purchase data. I assume it's deleted absurdly quickly for compliance?

Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by account42 on Wednesday July 13, 2022 @05:31AM (#32080532)
Huh, Amazon keeps years of order history for me and you can't even remove it, just "hide" orders which will then still be available just with an extra step. And I'm in the EU so no idea where else they would have more compliance problems with that.
Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by adrr on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @12:49PM (#32072607)
Isn't that any goal of an organization? Everything ladders up to the success of the company. Especially if you're a corporation where you have fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders.

AB testing is beyond UI. It could be AB testing algorithms for recommendations or search results. When i worked for a CPG company, we would AB test the sample sizes in the boxes. To answer the question what is right amount of product for a sample. We would test shipping to speed, was it worth the upgrade to expedited shipping in terms of LTV to justify the extra cost.

Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by bentcorner on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @12:34PM (#32072395)
What would an A/B test where the goal was not to maximize profit even look like? The very act of creating an A/B test is because the worker wants to improve something in search of higher profits.
Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by mattnewton on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @11:56AM (#32071769)
Over what time horizon? You should optimize short term metrics (for feasibility) that are (as best you can approximate) the cause of long term profits. The profits part is what makes it the business, using metrics for decisions are what makes it an A/B test. I think where people run into trouble is when they are optimizing only for this quarter’s revenue directly because long term value is too hard to measure.
Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by mcrad on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @01:29PM (#32073199)
Oh yeah? I've never seen a marketing department with a decent understanding of microeconomics. Most in fact are trying to maximize budget ie. expense.
Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by costcofries on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @10:28AM (#32070476)
That's probably intentional and a sign that it was a well designed A/B test :)
Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by koheripbal on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @10:43AM (#32070717)
This comment is way too broad and cynical.

It reminds me of the sentiment I sometimes hear from my teenage children before I explain to them that the world isn't a Bernie Sander/Reddit gotcha soundbite and that reality is complicated.

Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by pessimizer on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @11:14AM (#32071159)
"Reality is complicated" is often a way to rationalize "I'm going to do it how I've always done it, regardless of how it looks."
Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by jen20 on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @11:37AM (#32071487)
> This comment is way too broad and cynical

Or, as anyone who has been on the internet since the 90s will tell you, bang on the damn money.

Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by ThalesX on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @10:53AM (#32070861)
What would the other advantages of A|B testing be for a corporation instead of widening the funnel, increasting lifetime revenue or other such bottom-line focused goals?
Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by notriddle on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @11:37AM (#32071495)
Assuming you aren’t running a charity, increasing the bottom line is always your goal. The difference between a company that burns user goodwill in the process, and one that doesn’t, is the difference between short-term and long-term thinking.

The downside with hired testers is that they are unlikely to be a statistically representative sample of your target market. I don’t think this is actually a problem for most startups or new products being launched by major players, since a lot of UX issues early in product development will be obvious to anyone who isn’t the original developers, and the number of actual users you have won’t be big enough to serve as a statistically representative sample of your target market anyway.

Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by throwaway98797 on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @11:08AM (#32071076)
you can genuinely find out what message makes more sense.

explaining what your product does is hard when you’re the product expert. A/b testing ad copy helps folks parse what your product does.

If your product is actually good then having more people understand what it is, is also good.

Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by dvtrn on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @11:14AM (#32071163)
And all of that amounts to what if no one decides to cough up money to use your product?
Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by skupig on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @11:18AM (#32071218)
Let me be even broader and more cynical: everything a company does is ultimately to maximize profit.
Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by bcrosby95 on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @07:08PM (#32076961)
Seems like saying no one is actually altruistic because they get good feelings from helping people.
Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by saagarjha on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @05:57PM (#32076217)
Well, then, the reason why people hate A/B testing is because everyone does it wrong. People can write fast software in Python too but the reason it’s known as being a slow language is because it invariably gets used differently.
Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by NyxWulf on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @11:52AM (#32071721)
A/B testing is a tool, and as Deming said, the aim defines the system. In your definition of Good, you are defining the aim.

I've been in a similar situation, where I created a relatively sophisticated A/* testing and control system. My idea of good use of the system ended up being very different from how the team employing the system thought about it.

I believe that is part of the point of the post, that unintended, and even unimagined side effects plague even the best of ideas.

Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by koheripbal on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @10:43AM (#32070723)
Do people honestly think that Apple doesn't do A/B testing?
Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by teakettle42 on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @10:55AM (#32070901)
Apple unequivocally does not do active A/B testing on their users by changing applications or the operating system out from under them.
Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by selfhoster11 on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @12:44PM (#32072518)
It's almost like they use a dedicated focus/beta testing group or something, instead of making all their users join in.
Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by daniel_reetz on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @04:20PM (#32075119)
I can't think of an Apple engineer who would make such a definitive statement on behalf of the company, in public. I also can't think of anyone working there who would have definitive knowledge across all apps and software, because disclosure would prevent such knowledge.

Apple introduced A/B testing to Testflight in 2017 and more A/B testing to the App store this year.

Source: I worked at Apple, but not in software.

Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by izacus on Wednesday July 13, 2022 @06:05AM (#32080706)
Great, but what exactly does that mean for this conversation and how users percieve Apple products?
Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by mrkstu on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @11:09AM (#32071088)
Yep- it does this in betas, but not in production apps.
Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by civilized on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @07:20PM (#32077072)
You're missing GP's point. This is their experience with A/B testing as practiced. It's not about whether A/B testing could theoretically be great.
Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by DiggyJohnson on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @10:20AM (#32070353)
I’m not sure this addresses the core criticism of using your users as a testbed.
Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by 8note on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @10:30PM (#32078394)
A/B testing is always going to be distracting to your users though.

Sometimes they'll be in A, and sometimes in B.

The button moves or disappears or appears.

Your user does not get an experience they can rely on

Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by svnpenn on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @10:55AM (#32070903)
> Your perspective is extremely short-sighted

no, yours is. if some company wants to do some testing, they SHOULD PAY users for that. A/B testing is just exploiting users to get free testing.

Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by corrral on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @10:20AM (#32070352)
> Every app update was a risk of the app rearranging itself, or features appearing/disappearing.

This shit drives my parents insane. Me too, when I have to help them. I've had to spend tens of seconds looking at a major screen in the phone app, of all things, to figure out WTF I'm looking at so I could help them figure out what was up. Re-arranged every update (or new phone) for absolutely no reason, terrible affordances, poor use of their own design language. Ugh.

I'd get them on iOS but they need larger screens and the $400 small iPhones (what I have) are already more expensive than they think a phone "should" cost, so they keep buying $200 Android phones about once a year (hoping the next one will be better) and not being able to use them because the UI is garbage.

Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by selfhoster11 on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @12:48PM (#32072595)
At one point I was trying to set up my grandma with a popular video calling app on a dedicated device so we could stay in touch.

Before I could give her the freshly grandparent-proofed device, said video calling app upgraded on my parents' PC first and changed literally every single element of the UI beyond recognition. To someone the age of my grandma, that would be literally like bricking the device remotely, because none of the buttons would look the same, and she would not be able to work out how to use the new interface.

STOP CHANGING THINGS! Even if the new UI is better (debatable), some people just like or rely on a particular layout to operate the device or app. Don't rearrange without giving a ~permanent setting to use the old layout.

Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by corrral on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @01:20PM (#32073058)
> STOP CHANGING THINGS! Even if the new UI is better (debatable), some people just like or rely on a particular layout to operate the device or app. Don't rearrange without giving a ~permanent setting to use the old layout.

The fact that we're 15 years into smartphones being popular and that phones & computerized address books were basically fully-solved interfaces long before those took off, and they're still fucking around with phone app UI in big ways, is a sign of some kind of institutional or industry-market failure to me. Or both. Allowed, I suppose, because Google's market position (i.e. monopoly across several markets) both gives them the surplus profit (i.e. rents) to fuck around and waste money on harmful to users crap like phone app redesigns, and insulates them from any actual threat to their profit due to those bad choices.

Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by thatguy0900 on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @02:23PM (#32073856)
Well, all of these companies employ teams of ui and ux designers. They will never show up to work one day and tell their boss the ui is done. No matter how perfect the design currently is
Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by cupofpython on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @02:55PM (#32074231)
of course not. that's the responsibility of the company management to say "okay UI is good lets divert resources elsewhere"
Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by zanecodes on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @04:45PM (#32075437)
In the same way that we try to use semantic versioning to prevent unintended breakages in dependents of our public-facing APIs, I think we developers should start considering the UI/UX of our apps to be their public-facing API, and use the philosophy of semantic versioning accordingly.

When we rename or remove a function from an API, that's a breaking change, any dependent software will no longer work unless it's modified to take that change into account.

Similarly, when we move, rename, or remove a UI element, keyboard shortcut, or visual affordance, that should be considered a "breaking change" for our dependents, the humans on the other side of the screen. And in the same way, we should avoid making such changes unless the long-term benefit of doing so outweighs the short-term cost. Plus, users will know that moving from 7.x.x of your software to 8.x.x will require them to relearn some aspect of it.

Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by account42 on Wednesday July 13, 2022 @05:51AM (#32080628)
We should also keep arround long-term support releases of older versions of user-facing applications so that people can update at their own convenience and not at a point determined by some release manager. With server software and libraries no one expects everyone to upgrade immediately to new major versions but somehow this is an acceptable expectation from end users.
Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by jl6 on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @01:08PM (#32072897)
If you put a dollar value on your own time spent providing training and tech support to your parents, the iPhone options start to look much cheaper.
Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by corrral on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @01:21PM (#32073075)
I've considered just getting them one but that's another new interface for them to learn. Though one that's much more stable across years.
Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by bombcar on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @11:25AM (#32071303)
It's doubly sad because the larger phone or iPad would be perfect, but every year it's another $200 to tell Google they're doing the right thing.

At least on iPad/iPhone you can set the apps to access Google mail, etc, which doesn't change as often, but still too often.

Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by aceazzameen on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @10:00AM (#32070075)
You nailed it. Google is constantly forcing users to relearn most of their products year after year. Give me Google products from a decade ago and I'd still be happy. Now I'm moving on from Google also. It's an untrustworthy brand.
Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by bentcorner on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @12:22PM (#32072200)
Google recently shut off Hangouts on me with a flight (since several of my contacts reported that Hangouts worked fine for them).

It's kind of mind boggling they'd decide to do that - the replacement they direct me to (Google Chat) doesn't even have feature parity so I just dropped them and moved my social circle using Hangouts to a different app (since at this point they all faced the same problem and we decided on a different platform).

I'm really curious how the A/B testing for this went down - Google is willingly throwing customers away because somebody wants to pump numbers for a new app that is objectively worse than the old one.

At this point Google Maps is the only product that is keeping me with them, but even that one is beginning to wear thin.

Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by jklinger410 on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @02:06PM (#32073648)
> Google Chat) doesn't even have feature parity

Which features are you missing?

Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by bentcorner on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @03:15PM (#32074437)
Video chat. It redirects me to Google Meet (yet another app!) and the model that Google Meet uses is completely backwards (create a meeting, then invite people) compared to how I use Hangouts (call someone).

It's a complete pita and the family-acceptable-factor is low.

Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by cupofpython on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @02:57PM (#32074253)
check the AB test results
Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by brynjolf on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @03:29PM (#32074597)
Ironically the place I'm getting forced A/B testing now is the Playstore. They moved the update apps section so it is now 2-3 clicks more, making me have to make a seperate shortcut just to reach the app update quickly.

The point is of course to make it annoying to manually update apps and enable auto update. I have been burned too many times with a auto update so I refuse.

This wasn't enough, they really want to force me enable auto updates to the point of the update section of the app having 50% of the visible space on my big screen being covered with a message to enable auto update over WiFi. [0]

Whoever is doing this at Google... Stop. Just stop. It is cringe.

[0] https://i.imgur.com/MbXn9gy.jpg

Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by mgoetzke on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @10:10AM (#32070198)
Recently they remove YouTube PiP on iOS. Then it came back to my device but not others in the family. We pay for YT Premium. This is beyond infurating
Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by fouric on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @04:01PM (#32074910)
A few months ago, I came to the belief that Google is the ADHD toddler of user-facing software development - absolutely unable to sit still and concentrate on anything, hence the constant UI/UX churn, half-baked products, and graveyard[1] of shiny things that they worked on for a few years before abandoning.

Google seems to be really good at making developer tools like Borg and Blaze - however, I think that as an organization they have some deficit that makes them not responsible enough to develop user-facing software (like, uh, an operating system).

Maybe Google would be better as a B2B company.

[1] https://killedbygoogle.com/

Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by adrr on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @12:57PM (#32072742)
We AB tested a performance enhancement to our frontend web app to show that speed had significant benefits to the business. we use the results justify the investment cost. We spent the next six months working on making the site faster because of it. It is a tool. How would you measure things without ab testing?
Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by fisf on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @01:34PM (#32073265)
The fact that you need an A/B test to demonstrate that frontend performance has an impact (on user experience first and foremost) in 2022 speaks volumes.
Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by ajmurmann on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @03:07PM (#32074369)
But how big is the impact and does that return compare to that of other investments you aren't making because you are improving performance instead?
Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by jklinger410 on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @02:07PM (#32073656)
Yet it says nothing. Large companies are slow and stubborn.
Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by cupofpython on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @02:58PM (#32074268)
this is the stance I take on AB tests. The are objectively good at things you shouldnt need objective evidence for
Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by quickthrower2 on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @11:49AM (#32071671)
I moved back to iPhone in the 2015s onwards (I think) because of the crap quality of devices available, and the bloatware atop if android.

In many cases the hardware was so poor it was hard to make a call due to the touchscreen.

Since the primary thing I want the phone to do is make a call I switched to the “it just works” camp and haven’t regretted it.

Except getting photos off the phone. Until I realised the best tool for that is … Ubuntu!

Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by amelius on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @11:12AM (#32071133)
Yes, I hate Apple, but I'm starting to hate Google even more. One of these days, I might switch too.

Why can't we have nice things?

Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by dakial1 on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @01:56PM (#32073531)
The problem is not the AB testing, as it can be a good thing to improve the experience, the problem is poorly set, short sighted, OKRs. The author points that in the text, as he mentions many times that the leadership never asks the right questions, mainly how it will impact the client in the long run (being NPS evolution, lifetime value, etc..)
Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by bratbag on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @10:10AM (#32070199)
Depends on where A/B testing is used.

If it's something one-and-done (like different permutations of a signup flow to see what is easier for users), then I don't see the harm in it.

Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by Lutger on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @11:57AM (#32071802)
> To me, capitalism (A/B testing) means you don't respect your citizens (users). You see them as just one factor in your money machine that can be poked and prodded to optimize how much money you can squeeze out of them.

You just described doing business in todays world.

Being a bit more generous towards A/B testing, I would make a counter point: _not_ doing any kind of user testing, of which large scale automated A/B tests are just a subset, means you don't respect your users. Because it means you just assume you know what their experience is like, or worse: you don't even care about it and bother to learn something.

Your complaint seems to be more about the scale and aspect of automation honestly, and continuity of the services, which is a valid complaint against Google but not about A/B testing in general.

Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by saagarjha on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @06:02PM (#32076261)
> Because it means you just assume you know what their experience is like, or worse: you don't even care about it and bother to learn something.

A/B tests are not the only, or even the best, way of collecting user feedback.

Re:A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term by ChrisMarshallNY on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @10:09AM (#32070197)
> means you don't respect your users.

I was just pontif- er, talking about this to someone, a couple of days ago.

I love the users of my products. Most of my products are free, and are carefully-crafted, highly-polished, complete deliverables, and I fret over how they are used -even if by a tiny number of end users-, like a nervous hen. I do what I do, out of love for the craft, and out of a genuine desire to make people's lives easier, through the technology I have at my disposal.

It is my belief that most tech companies despise their user base. Users are little more than cattle, to be fattened and slaughtered. "Caring about the user" means optimizing for "engagement," or keeping them trapped within their own ecosystem. John Oliver did a rant about this, recently[0]. It has nothing to do with actually caring about the user, or solving their problem. It is about harvesting users.

In fact, my discussion about this, came about, because someone wanted to keep users inside the app I'm writing, as opposed to linking them to a more familiar app, on their phone (for the record, it was for videoconferencing). Linking is a "no-brainer," as I can link out to dozens of installed apps, using the simple URL scheme method, built into iOS[1], and "keeping them in the app," would have required several months of extra work, polluting the app with megabytes of junk code, because I'd need to use SDKs, and also kill the ability to easily scale to add new clients (contrary to popular belief, Zoom is not the only videoconferencing option). It would also have possibly put us on the hook, legally, for what happened in those videoconferences.

[0] https://youtu.be/jXf04bhcjbg?t=638

[1] https://developer.apple.com/documentation/xcode/defining-a-c...