News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by hulitu on Monday February 14, 2022 @02:31AM (#30329219)
You could run linux before. With qemu. It was a crappy experience. Even writing on a touchscreen is bad and when the window is tiny and you barely see the letters is even worse. Of course you can hook a wireless keyboard and mouse but then better go to the PC which has even a bigger screen.

I really don't see what this brings. Is google so lost that the only "innovation" they can bring in android is descovering that the linux kernel has support for virtualization ?

Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by kstenerud on Monday February 14, 2022 @03:18AM (#30329553)
> I really don't see what this brings. Is google so lost that the only "innovation" they can bring in android is descovering that the linux kernel has support for virtualization ?

When talking about the strategy of a successful multibillion dollar company, the most likely answer is "no".

The very short article explains at a high level:

"they’re used for things like enhancing the security of the kernel (or at least trying to) and running miscellaneous code (such as third-party code for DRM, cryptography, and other closed-source binaries) outside of the Android OS."

Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by bumblebritches5 on Monday February 14, 2022 @03:54AM (#30329805)
This is about Fuchsia.

First Google is gonna run Fuchsia on Linux, then linux will be removed entirely.

that's what this laying the groundwork for.

Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by resonious on Monday February 14, 2022 @03:20AM (#30329569)
Forgive me for regurgitating trendy HN counter arguments, but: this comment seems very similar to the early dismissals of Dropbox.

"I can already achieve this with FTP/samba/whatever." Sometimes taking existing, established technology and making it easier to use is all it takes to "innovate".

Of course I have no idea how killer this particular Android feature will be. I'm just criticizing the "this is not new" argument.

Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by heavyset_go on Monday February 14, 2022 @03:28AM (#30329619)
For every Dropbox, there are a thousand companies and products that similar criticisms could be made against that don't actually succeed, sometimes for the reasons stated in those criticisms.
Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by resonious on Monday February 14, 2022 @04:16AM (#30329936)
I think it's fair to say that for those failed products/companies, the reason for them failing is a bit more nuanced than "because the core service already exists elsewhere". Competition always exists so you're almost never the sole provider of a particular type of service. If you fail, you were likely out-competed, even if it's in a non-core area like marketing or popularity.
Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by chx on Monday February 14, 2022 @03:47AM (#30329757)
As an aside: this is exactly what tech bros do not get about the AirTags when we try to get the message across about how bad they are for stalking. Every time I try to bring this up, I am told that Tile, GPS trackers, Samsung I-do-not-even-know-what already exists. Who cares -- the AirTags work, alas they work exceptionally well (precision and battery life wise especially), easily accessible, their existence easily discoverable. They are devastating in this field. Problem is, vulnerable people will use public transit where it's practically guaranteed within a ten meter radius there will be an iPhone, especially so in North America where the iPhone is so prevalent. Meanwhile, the victim might not have an iPhone, just some scuffed Android 'cos that's all they can afford. That Apple released (or didn't recall) them is a blow, that Congress didn't ban them is not really because it's not like we expect Congress to be functional, to protect poor people especially women. But watch a stalking case involving one going bad (= rape, murder) in, say, Germany and then watch the EU bringing down the banhammmer.
Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by allisdust on Monday February 14, 2022 @04:00AM (#30329841)
There are cheap trackers from aliexpress that can be used in place of airtags. Most include GPS and use mobile internet for sending location updates. May be the airtags made tech based stalking more popular but will it reverse just because Apple takes it back. Also its not like finding where someone lives is a particularly difficult task given the ridiculous amount of information there is online. And as for the public transit example, may be all they have to do is wait till the victim gets down the from the bus to find out where they live ? (I mean it is public transit after all).
Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by shard on Monday February 14, 2022 @05:09PM (#30339068)
The caveat is that in the general population, I would expect that there are vastly more people who can figure out how to configure a AirTag versus buy and configure a tracker off of AliExpress, similar to how the graphical user interface enabled vastly more users than the command line.
Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by CamperBob2 on Monday February 14, 2022 @04:27AM (#30330016)
I don't want to live in a world full of objects that can't be misused. Maybe you do.
Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by orbital-decay on Monday February 14, 2022 @06:05AM (#30330604)
Dropbox was a different tech from FTP/Samba/whatever.

This one, it's not the first VM on smartphones at all. Running a desktop OS is possible for years with comparable solutions. What makes this different from Samsung's DeX, for example?

Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by j16sdiz on Monday February 14, 2022 @11:28AM (#30333945)
This can run windows application. DeX is ChromeOS-like
Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by encryptluks2 on Monday February 14, 2022 @03:38AM (#30329695)
You act like Dropbox is successful when they are not. A company paying other companies to advertise and push their products and burning through cash to appear successful is not success.
Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by tehbeard on Monday February 14, 2022 @05:55AM (#30330546)
Dropbox was successful.

Its current financial state is more a case of bigger vendors bundling a good enough alternative with their products AND dropbox not adding much beyond "easy to use"; than HN insight of "lol just rsync/bash/perl instead" being right all along.

Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by gjvc on Monday February 14, 2022 @03:46AM (#30329748)
Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by encryptluks2 on Monday February 14, 2022 @04:11AM (#30329906)
Nothing about that indicates that they are making more than they spend. Look at their assets vs liabilities. Their negative keeps increasing.
Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by gzer0 on Monday February 14, 2022 @04:31AM (#30330047)
The liabilities increased significantly only because Dropbox (as with nearly every other company in the United States) wanted to take advantage of the 0% interest rates that the federal reserve has kept.

  1,369.3 (bln) Convertible senior notes, net, non-current
Who wouldn't want to borrow $1.3 billion USD interest free or close to it? We need to take a close look and try to understand these numbers instead of just seeing "negative" = "bad"; more often than not it much more nuanced than that.
Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by encryptluks2 on Monday February 14, 2022 @04:42AM (#30330105)
Sounds like a terrible idea right now. I think they are only popular here because of their association with YC. I honestly find Dropbox to be terrible and overpriced.
Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by Sohcahtoa82 on Monday February 14, 2022 @02:04PM (#30336625)
For simply keeping files synced between two computers, I thought Dropbox was the best.

Microsoft OneDrive is fuckin' awful in how long it takes for a file on one system to be synced to another, even when both systems are online at the same time. It also has a habit of completely pausing syncing entirely if it reaches a file it can't read (such as a lock file).

Google Drive works well, but I find its desktop client to be resource-heavy, especially on startup. I like its integration with my Android, though.

Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by y4mi on Monday February 14, 2022 @03:19AM (#30329561)
Well, imagine your next work laptop to be a phone. It connects wirelessly to a display, which is paired to a keyboard and mouse.

Still not seeing the point?

People are either gonna love or hate it. Love because of how little space it requires or hate because the performance is gonna be worse then even the non pro versions of the surface.

Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by rbanffy on Monday February 14, 2022 @04:22AM (#30329985)
> It connects wirelessly to a display, which is paired to a keyboard and mouse.

When you add the display, battery, keyboard and mouse, it's really cheap to add brains and storage and build a full laptop that can share data with your phone.

This is why most lapdocks fail - they aren't that much less expensive than a cheap laptop. This is also why, at some point, nobody was making dedicated terminals for large computers - they were as expensive to build as PCs.

Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by oblio on Monday February 14, 2022 @03:35AM (#30329674)
This was the dream for a long time (sans the wireless part, but that's not a blocker), see Ubuntu Phone and several other attempts.

I wonder when we'll be there. For sure we're not there for wireless, yet. It's unreliable, especially if you have a lot of wireless devices around.

Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by fsflover on Monday February 14, 2022 @04:17AM (#30329940)
Why use a virtualized Linux on proprietary Android if you can use native Linux phone with all free drivers and desktop OS? https://puri.sm/products/librem-5
Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by Barrin92 on Monday February 14, 2022 @04:31AM (#30330040)
to be blunt because the librem is an awful phone. The battery life is miserable, the UI is terrible, and the performance isn't great either. It feels five years behind at the price that's higher than the pixel 6.

A mid-range Xiaomi phone is better than the Librem 5 and costs four times less.

Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by fsflover on Monday February 14, 2022 @04:37AM (#30330087)
These are all software issues, which are being worked on: https://teddit.net/r/Purism/comments/sqbml6/is_librem_5_good...

Also, it will receive software updates forever unlike any other phone.

Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by Barrin92 on Monday February 14, 2022 @04:54AM (#30330177)
It's not just software issues. It's a 1200$ phone with 30 gigs of drive space, 3 gigs of ram and a 720×1440 screen.

not to mention, from the thread you linked:

"About 2600 L5's have been delivered, so everyone who ordered before October 2017 should have gotten their phones. Purism reportedly just got in another 1100 L5's from the factory, so when those get shipped out, that should cover the orders up to mid-2018."

I mean you can't be serious. People paid almost a grand to wait four years for a phone?

Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by fsflover on Monday February 14, 2022 @05:30AM (#30330406)
The delays are real (waiting for mine too), but IMHO there were good reasons for that: https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Freque...

But this tiny company with no experience in smartphones did finally produce the product respecting users unlike Google or Apple. The current problems with CPU supply is not Purism's fault.

Also, the phone supports microSD up to 2 TB.

Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by MerelyMortal on Monday February 14, 2022 @09:33AM (#30332451)
It was cheaper then, about $600. (still expensive and worth it, but not "almost a grand")
Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by Saris on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @09:53AM (#30347185)
Am I reading the website right that it has 3GB of RAM and 32GB of eMMC storage? There's no way that has the RAM or IO performance to run general desktop programs.
Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by AniseAbyss on Monday February 14, 2022 @06:33AM (#30330799)
If making a good phone OS was that easy we would have more options besides Android or iOS.
Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by modo_mario on Monday February 14, 2022 @06:05AM (#30330607)
How does it compare to the pinephone nowadays?
Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by yjftsjthsd-h on Monday February 14, 2022 @11:18AM (#30333807)
Especially, how does it compare to the pinephone pro
Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by rbanffy on Monday February 14, 2022 @04:23AM (#30329988)
You can have a good phone with a good virtualized OS you you can have a not-that-good phone with a good OS.
Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by mark_l_watson on Monday February 14, 2022 @09:49AM (#30332622)
That is what I want. In addition to a docking station in my office, I would like iPhone <—> iTV style interop in the living room, and compatible kiosk style support in public areas like airports, airlines, office buildings, etc.
Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by Hjfrf on Monday February 14, 2022 @03:36AM (#30329683)
If people are spending 1500 on a phone rather than 750 each on laptop/phone, the performance isn't necessarily worse.

That's the real killer feature.

Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by rbanffy on Monday February 14, 2022 @04:23AM (#30329993)
OTOH, if you spend 750 on each and one breaks, it's only 750 to replace it.
Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by pjmlp on Monday February 14, 2022 @03:35AM (#30329673)
Like Windows Phone and Samsung DEX.
Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by nine_k on Monday February 14, 2022 @03:36AM (#30329678)
If it could work in a pinch, that already would be valuable for some users.
Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by monocasa on Monday February 14, 2022 @02:35AM (#30329242)
It seems like they're taking Android in a Qubes-like direction.

https://blog.esper.io/android-dessert-bites-5-virtualization...

Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by mateuszf on Monday February 14, 2022 @04:18AM (#30329953)
Yes, please. I'd love to separate Facebook, Google, Amazon, etc. apps into separate domains. As I'm doing with web apps via Firefox containers.
Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by GekkePrutser on Monday February 14, 2022 @09:01AM (#30332067)
I don't think Google is doing this to give you more privacy. They have every incentive to do the exact opposite.

Ps Firefox containers are great indeed and I use them for the same reasons. But I doubt this is the intended usecase for this. I don't see Google investing a ton of money to build something that will hurt their bottom line.

Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by mateuszf on Monday February 14, 2022 @09:35AM (#30332469)
You're probably right, but the fact that underlying technology will be present may be used by someone to implement it.

Like in the case of the Shelter app.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.typeblog.s...

Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by karlkloss on Monday February 14, 2022 @03:27AM (#30329613)
Think bigger. Big tablets with detachable keyboards that can now run Android and Windows.

Also there are Android based VR headsets, anh their resolutions are getting better. Think of working in a connected virtual office, running Windows applications.

Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by RamRodification on Monday February 14, 2022 @03:28AM (#30329627)
I kinda want my phone to be a portable PC in my pocket. At least I think I do... If I could dock my phone in at work and have it boot up a Windows VM (I work on a Windows PC) that would be neat.

I know there are some options for this, like Samsung Dex, but with this there is at least some potential for having a Windows PC in your pocket. Like Microsoft tried to do with those older Windows phones.

Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by dachryn on Monday February 14, 2022 @03:35AM (#30329672)
We are probably focusing on the wrong use case here.

Yes this virtualization allows us to run windows/linux. Thats not the main goal probably. Its more to reuse packages from those stacks on your android phone, kinda like the VMware Fusion mode on a Mac, to run applications side by side, or to run things in a secure virtualized container.

Why recompile to android, when you can virtualize?

Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by zekrioca on Monday February 14, 2022 @04:25AM (#30329998)
> Why recompile to android, when you can virtualize?

Performance?

Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by anthk on Monday February 14, 2022 @02:50PM (#30337293)
Why Linux when you have Termux?
Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by pjmlp on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @04:15AM (#30344306)
Unless Termux folks acknowledge Android's userspace API is Java and not POSIX, they won't be around for much longer on newer Android versions.

https://developer.android.com/ndk/guides/stable_apis

Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by pinephoneguy on Monday February 14, 2022 @03:43AM (#30329726)
You could just chroot into normal GNU based user spaces before they screwed it up between all the namespace stuff and then later restricting exec. I even ran X11 apps on my Android a long time ago with zero virtualization overhead.
Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by zozbot234 on Monday February 14, 2022 @06:24AM (#30330735)
> Even writing on a touchscreen is bad and when the window is tiny and you barely see the letters is even worse.

We need to bring back gestural writing, with simplified letter forms. The basic tech was in production use in the mid-1990s, and there are clearly unencumbered alphabets that could be easily used for this, such as the 19th century Moon Script. Recent UI work has made Linux quite usable on touchscreens and smaller devices, but text input is way harder than it could be.

Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by Teknoman117 on Monday February 14, 2022 @03:48AM (#30329764)
Linux has had KVM, sure, but mobile ARM CPUs have not had the necessary virtualization extensions for “native” speed hypervisors up until very recently.
Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by squiffsquiff on Monday February 14, 2022 @04:39AM (#30330091)
It's a formal capability of the device and a design goal- see

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/11/android-12-the-ars-t...

Private Compute Core—Running AI code in a virtual machine?

Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by dagi3d on Monday February 14, 2022 @03:34AM (#30329661)
The article explains the most plausible rationale for that and it seems it's not necessary to run other OS's...
Re:Android 13 virtualization lets Pixel 6 run Windows 11, Li... by thomond on Monday February 14, 2022 @08:10AM (#30331561)
you could also run Win 9x through Dosbox on Android although again not very well.