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Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by ryandrake on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @04:12PM (#29490574)
Anyone who has worked in mapping/GIS at a company that sells in China has seen this in action. The "display these islands larger" requests, the obfuscated coordinate system for geo-aligning maps, and other map content regulatory issues[1] all need to be dealt with if you want your map product available in the country. Not excusing it, but every company with maps there is required to do this, not just Apple.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restrictions_on_geographic_dat...

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by gbasin on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @04:51PM (#29490998)
I compared the same area in apple vs google maps, the islands don't even show up in google unless you zoom way in. You sure about this?
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by quitit on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @07:09PM (#29492307)
People outside of China are served a different set of maps. Each country is served maps that conform to their territorial claims.

E.g. If you view the map of India while in India, it'll appear different than if you viewed it in China.

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by anovikov on Thursday December 09, 2021 @01:34AM (#29494498)
One thing about claims (say display Crimea as part of Russia within Russia and as Ukraine elsewhere), but distorting SIZES of the places on maps according to someone's political preference is well... plain out ridiculous, laughable. It displays how messed up China is more than anything else. It's seriously hard to expect the place that does things like that, as a next superpower. You can't build a superpower on silly, 4-year-old level lies like that one.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by zczc on Thursday December 09, 2021 @07:08AM (#29496449)
"In the end, the Party would announce that two and two made five, and you would have to believe it. It was inevitable that they should make that claim sooner or later: the logic of their position demanded it. Not merely the validity of experience, but the very existence of external reality, was tacitly denied by their philosophy. The heresy of heresies was common sense. And what was terrifying was not that they would kill you for thinking otherwise, but that they might be right. For, after all, how do we know that two and two make four? Or that the force of gravity works? Or that the past is unchangeable? If both the past and the external world exist only in the mind, and if the mind itself is controllable—what then?" — George Orwell, 1984
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by lolive on Thursday December 09, 2021 @11:06AM (#29499028)
All that thread was screaming for that quote. Thank you forever for posting it!
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by Hoasi on Thursday December 09, 2021 @03:56AM (#29495269)
> You can't build a superpower on silly, 4-year-old level lies like that one.

You absolutely can and must. That is, in fact, one of the prerogatives of a superpower.

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by Grustaf on Thursday December 09, 2021 @10:48AM (#29498722)
What is even the purpose of showing these tiny islands in a larger size? It's not like they are the backbone of China's economy or that they prove that the party still has the mandate of heaven.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by lolive on Thursday December 09, 2021 @11:11AM (#29499095)
To oversize the problem related to those islands. And make the people agree upon a common ennemy.

[USA did a similar oversizing trick with WMD and the belief that Irak was the 4th biggest army in the world]

[calm down, USA patriots, all the countries do use the same tricks.]

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by ghostbrainalpha on Thursday December 09, 2021 @02:16PM (#29501651)
Did Iraq NOT have the 4th biggest army in the world?
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by tdsamardzhiev on Friday December 10, 2021 @01:13AM (#29506923)
It's not the size, it's how you use it.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by lolive on Friday December 10, 2021 @05:06AM (#29508264)
Tell that to the iphone mini...
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by lolive on Thursday December 09, 2021 @05:22PM (#29503787)
In the 80s yes.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by dr_dshiv on Thursday December 09, 2021 @03:03AM (#29494970)
You should see the Gerrymandering maps in the US. It’s map distortion for political power, not just political posture.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by antihero on Thursday December 09, 2021 @09:39AM (#29497790)
There used to be an awesome online game where your challenge was to gerrymander constituencies. I had great fun and it was amazingly education. God knows what it was made in, possibly a Java Applet. I wonder if anything exists with modern tech.

Edit: It was this - http://www.redistrictinggame.org/game.php

It looks like someone has made one here though: http://gametheorytest.com/gerry/game/

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by BurningFrog on Thursday December 09, 2021 @10:57AM (#29498888)
Gerrymandering is bad.

But those maps do describe reality.

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by aivisol on Thursday December 09, 2021 @06:05AM (#29496079)
Can you elaborate on this? I am curious to know more about it.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by mynameismon on Thursday December 09, 2021 @06:41AM (#29496293)
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by ctdonath on Thursday December 09, 2021 @06:44AM (#29496307)
Some US voting districts are very odd shapes, specifically to include/exclude factors which increase the chances of a particular political party winning.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by zrail on Thursday December 09, 2021 @07:34AM (#29496637)
Not to completely defend gerrymandering but districts are also drawn "oddly" to help ensure minority representation within a system with absurd constraints. If there were more representatives districts would be more granular and localized but because representatives are capped at 435 you have this bizarre situation of needing to give opportunities for equal representation across populations that are spread across a city/county/state.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by MiddleEndian on Thursday December 09, 2021 @09:36AM (#29497758)
If someone appointed me as the czar of legislative voting, my way to resolve this and reduce the incentives to gerrymander while improving minority representation would be to replace single district voting with a vote-point system.

If one candidate in a district gets 100,000 votes and another 85,000 votes, both would go to congress and each would get that many vote-points. Rather than number of representative votes, voting outcomes would be determined by who has more vote-points. That way if you have three similarly sized districts, District X and District Y where 40% want party A and 60% want party B, and then district Z where you have 90% want party A and only 10% want party B, you'd still end up with .4/3+.4/3+.9/3 (56%) votes for party A rather than 67% for party B, regardless of how you redistrict. Plus you'd have asymmetric interests where opposing parties would represent the same districts so they would be incentivized to work together, and also some representation for minority regional parties who may align with one party on some issues and another on others.

To limit budgets, I guess there would have to be a maximum number of candidates per district, maybe filtering out anyone who does not have at least 10% of the vote (or some other number determined by some reasonable formula), an option for candidates who don't meet the threshold to reallocate their vote-points to someone who did (or a ranked choice voting system that keeps going until everyone remaining has the minimum vote threshold), and maybe no matter what you'd at least send two candidates unless literally only one candidate had votes.

This would also have a side effect of incentivizing more people to vote and allow people to vote with a bit less strategy and more earnestness.

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by eertami on Thursday December 09, 2021 @12:27PM (#29500275)
So... proportional representation? I think without PR you don't really have a full democracy. Things might be "democratic" in spirit, but it's never a fair and transparent democracy without PR.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by kergonath on Thursday December 09, 2021 @02:11AM (#29494707)
I am not disagreeing at all, but most places have stupid regulations for petty nationalistic reasons. Saying that you can’t have a superpower with these is laughable, considering the history of the USSR and the US specifically. Though, again, this is very common.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by 2wrist on Thursday December 09, 2021 @05:34AM (#29495870)
If I remember correctly, this used to happen on historical maps too, the UK and Europe were often made larger than they actually are.

It feels silly but there are manipulative reasons to do this.

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by Eelongate on Thursday December 09, 2021 @07:26AM (#29496574)
> If I remember correctly, this used to happen on historical maps too, the UK and Europe were often made larger than they actually are.

A consequence of the projection chosen, applied uniformly (e.g. Mercator, which also makes Greenland and Alaska ludicrously large)? Or do you mean maps that enlarged Europe specifically? Mercator is dumb (for anything other than navigation), but there is a significant difference here. China is doing the latter.

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by Dah00n on Thursday December 09, 2021 @08:30AM (#29497086)
Many maps -especially US maps- enlarged USSR for decades. China says "X must be visible at zoom level Y instead of at Y-5". Not at all comparable.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by Eelongate on Thursday December 09, 2021 @08:52AM (#29497289)
> Many maps -especially US maps- enlarged USSR for decades.

Can you provide information or citations for this?

> China says "X must be visible at zoom level Y instead of at Y-5".

That's not the claim made in the thread above: "Sometime in 2014 or early 2015, China’s State Bureau of Surveying and Mapping told members of the Apple Maps team to make the Diaoyu Islands, the objects of a long-running territorial dispute between China and Japan, appear large even when users zoomed out from them." Can you provide any citation to the contrary?

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by bmn__ on Thursday December 09, 2021 @07:48AM (#29496752)
I say you remember incorrectly. Some map projections (see <https://explainxkcd.com/977> for an overview) make objects appear proportionally larger when we move from the equator to the poles, Greenland and Antarctica are greatly exaggerated. But this is motivated by stereometric reasons – everything on the same latitude is equally distorted – and not because the King wanted a huge Mappy McMapface.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by Eelongate on Thursday December 09, 2021 @09:02AM (#29497391)
> But this is motivated by stereometric reasons – everything on the same latitude is equally distorted

Expanding on this; Mercator is useful for navigation because it's conformal, i.e. it preserves angles. When you're plotting the course of a ship, this is very convenient.

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by BurningFrog on Thursday December 09, 2021 @11:01AM (#29498935)
And historically, ship navigation was the dominant reason to make maps in the first place.

Only when maps were used for other purposes was there any reason to develop other projections.

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by Siira on Friday December 10, 2021 @06:04AM (#29508559)
It’s not “4-year-old level” if you have the power to back it up. Anyone who hasn’t heard of the trick will be deceived by it, which I suspect will be the majority of people.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by Dah00n on Thursday December 09, 2021 @08:28AM (#29497070)
AFAICT it is not "distorting SIZES". It is at which zoom level an area or island becomes visible.

> It displays how messed up China is more than anything else.

Eh, the USSR was made bigger on maps for decades because of US "4-year-old level lies". This is not even in the same ballpark.

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by MichaelBurge on Thursday December 09, 2021 @01:50AM (#29494593)
It's a mistake to treat "China" as one coherent entity with a single unified purpose, which chooses to prioritize the mapping issue front-of-mind.

China has over a billion people. That one middle manager in the maps department is personally offended by territory appearing smaller, has zero relation to the rest of the country and shouldn't affect your opinion.

Many bureaucrats in the USA draw stupid lines in sand that nobody cares about, yet the USA is a strong superpower nonetheless.

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by gostsamo on Thursday December 09, 2021 @02:13AM (#29494714)
This is not some middle manager's sensibility. This is a deliberate inner propaganda policy. When chinese people ask: "What we are fighting for there?", they can open the map and see some big island and not the shit of a fly visible only under a microscope.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by rfoo on Thursday December 09, 2021 @06:54AM (#29496372)
As a Chinese I don't need to open maps or search how large the island is, I learn that it is a tiny one from (printed) newspapers years ago.

OTOH I don't have much confidence in the middle manager theory, either.

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by anovikov on Thursday December 09, 2021 @02:08AM (#29494695)
Because China is a dictatorship, it is OK to be seen as a single coherent entity, in my opinion.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by lovemenot on Thursday December 09, 2021 @07:14AM (#29496488)
Just as in any large political system, China cannot be entirely controlled centrally. There are three or four levels of regional and local control below the centre. It would be impossible for Beijing to administer all of that detail.

In foreign affairs, Beijing is sovereign - including anything related to the Senkaku / Diaoyu islands which are presently owned by Japan. So in this respect you are right.

For local matters, there is considerable flexibility and internal conflict. Currently, Beijing encourages citizens to find fault and report administrative issues at local levels, but will brook no dissent of its own management. In domestic administration China is less coherent than your claim.

All of the above could be equally true in a non-authoritarian form of government. I would argue that China's authoritarian politics are largely orthogonal to its degree of federation.

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by surge on Friday December 10, 2021 @03:47PM (#29515254)
>For local matters, there is considerable flexibility and internal conflict. Currently, Beijing encourages citizens to find fault and report administrative issues at local levels, but will brook no dissent of its own management. In domestic administration China is less coherent than your claim.

Your social credit score will go down if you do.

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by ngc248 on Thursday December 09, 2021 @02:38AM (#29494835)
China has over a billion people: true, but everything is under the control of CCP. So for anyone outside China, it is one coherent entity which is the CCP.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by necovek on Thursday December 09, 2021 @03:09AM (#29495012)
In a single party system, one entity as large as CCP can never be "coherent": you'll always have people pulling in different directions.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by ngc248 on Thursday December 09, 2021 @04:40AM (#29495489)
Agree ... there are always factions etc and all these factions may manifest power within china, but external to China, CCP at projects a coherent facade unlike other democracies.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by prewett on Thursday December 09, 2021 @11:50AM (#29499690)
China is not a democracy
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by necovek on Friday December 10, 2021 @05:39PM (#29516333)
Even political scientists disagree what makes a "democracy" today.

I am pretty sure China considers itself a "democracy" in the original meaning of the word: "rule of the people" (thus the focus on "People" in "People's Republic of China" and in many other official names). Basically, anyone can rise to power by going through the ranks of the communist party, and people are elected and voted for.

I wouldn't consider it a democracy even in that basic sense because of the disregard for basic human rights and freedoms, and it surely is not one in the modern political sense of multi-party systems.

Similarly, one could argue that the de-facto two-party system in the USA is not very democratic either, as it's not unlike a single-party system in China: you go through the ranks of the *party* to progress. It's the other things that make USA more of a democracy (freedom of speech and protections against unsubstantiated persecution, for example, and sure, ability to start a party too — even if it's inconsequential).

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by Grustaf on Thursday December 09, 2021 @10:50AM (#29498761)
If any country can be treated as a coherent entity, it's China.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by chrononaut on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @07:34PM (#29492463)
Why do we see some of these behaviors within China maps, outside China?

> .. the obfuscated coordinate system for geo-aligning maps ..

https://goo.gl/maps/Qr2QRB7aB2jrg9Rk7

Roads are not aligned to the satellite imagery for example.

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by T-A on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @09:06PM (#29492991)
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by AYBABTME on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:05PM (#29493699)
The same exists elsewhere, in South Korea that I know of. Bridges and dams disappear or move on maps, Google Maps doesn't have high res sat pictures, etc. Just to say, it's not great IMO but not only totalitarian states have a need for such obfuscation; healthy democracies too.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by skinkestek on Thursday December 09, 2021 @01:59AM (#29494649)
> Bridges and dams disappear or move on maps, Google Maps doesn't have high res sat pictures, etc.

Not defending what I see as childish China the slightest, but one should be aware that even the best democracies don't necessarily publish entirely correct maps, and it is on purpose ;-)

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by thatcat on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:48PM (#29493927)
what is the need that justifies this exactly?
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by More-nitors on Thursday December 09, 2021 @12:11AM (#29494056)
missiles and artillery

can't remote-boom-boom if you can't know where they are

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by TaylorAlexander on Thursday December 09, 2021 @01:18AM (#29494418)
Perfect for those apple-maps guided bombs.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by ComodoHacker on Thursday December 09, 2021 @02:57AM (#29494936)
In a recent Donbass conflict, there were reports of Ukrainian military and militia using specially tailored Android apps with OSM data as base layers.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by Veen on Thursday December 09, 2021 @05:11AM (#29495706)
If you can get perfect coordinates from Apple Maps and your missiles have GPS, you're good to boom. It's not as though the missiles have an iPhone inside them.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by ad404b8a372f2b9 on Thursday December 09, 2021 @05:37AM (#29495888)
But if your missiles have GPS surely you have satellites to get the coordinates yourself?
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by Veen on Thursday December 09, 2021 @05:45AM (#29495953)
I don't think that follows. GPS access is universal; accurate mapping data is not. These rules are an attempt to ensure that precise coordinates for key targets are not available to anyone with a satnav system or smartphone.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by wolverine876 on Thursday December 09, 2021 @12:58AM (#29494313)
North Korea won't think to look at other maps?
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by necovek on Thursday December 09, 2021 @03:11AM (#29495022)
Of course not! They choose their targets using Google Maps: nobody was ever fired for using Google Maps! :D
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by More-nitors on Thursday December 09, 2021 @09:08AM (#29497472)
> nobody was ever fired for

hm that means 2 things there...

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by d3nj4l on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @08:43PM (#29492843)
To add, India has a similar law for maps. Any company serving maps in India has to show, for example, all of Kashmir - including the ones we aren't in control of - as belonging to India. I've made a small hobby out of noting websites which should be illegal in India because of that. A recent memorable incident (not a website, and not found by me) was when John Oliver's Last Week Tonight did a show on Asian-Americans and the Indian streaming service that hosted LWT had to crop the map out. It's pretty funny.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by mathnmusic on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:43PM (#29493898)
Ownership disputes exist in many places across the world. But making an island appear larger than it is, is a unique demand that reminds me of Indiana trying to pass a law that declared the value of pi to be equal to 3.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by fractalb on Thursday December 09, 2021 @01:06AM (#29494359)
> Indiana trying to pass a law that declared the value of pi to be equal to 3.

Interesting. Was that really true? Why did they need to change the value?

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by saxonww on Thursday December 09, 2021 @01:18AM (#29494416)
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by wolverine876 on Thursday December 09, 2021 @12:59AM (#29494319)
> I've made a small hobby out of noting websites which should be illegal in India because of that.

Do you mean you are reporting these sites?

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by d3nj4l on Thursday December 09, 2021 @09:18AM (#29497571)
Of course not. I'm not a snitch.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by cachvico on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @08:47PM (#29492864)
Would be fascinating to see all of these discrepancies highlighted.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by sova on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @08:56PM (#29492927)
it's a practice reaching as far back as cartography itself
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by xwolfi on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @10:42PM (#29493573)
The old projections systems were even made to blow up what you cared about (your country) and be very scale-imprecised on the outskirt.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by wolverine876 on Thursday December 09, 2021 @01:01AM (#29494326)
That might be less propaganda, and more about wanting a large, precise map of the area that interests you.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by aardvark179 on Thursday December 09, 2021 @07:39AM (#29496689)
Projections were chosen for a variety of reasons. For example the Mercator projection distorts the size of things far from the equator, but it does preserve local bearing and shape.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by soapdog on Thursday December 09, 2021 @08:28AM (#29497064)
Just do a Google search for the kinds of maps the some American schools use, you'll be amazed. Once, my wife had to hear from a university geography professor in America that Texas was larger than Brazil. When contested the professor said he was pretty sure.

I'm not supporting China territorial claims, but I don't expect anything different from their government. I did however expected better from the U.S.

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by CincinnatiMan on Thursday December 09, 2021 @08:09PM (#29505289)
One professor making a mistake implies the US government is manipulating maps? How did you come to that conclusion?
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by sc90 on Thursday December 09, 2021 @08:54AM (#29497309)
Could anyone share screenshots or images of juxtaposed examples of such map scenarios?
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by veritascap on Thursday December 09, 2021 @06:33AM (#29496259)
We aren’t even looking at the same planet that we’re living on.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by topicseed on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @04:55PM (#29491058)
Google Maps is blocked in China, I think.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by tonyhb on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @05:13PM (#29491237)
So, as much as people like to throw shade at Google, we can say that they haven't caved on this. That's a plus for them.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by mc32 on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @06:25PM (#29491937)
Google withdrew from the Chinese market for multiple reasons, but one influential one was the state sponsored penetration of Google ops in China.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by jhugo on Thursday December 09, 2021 @01:27AM (#29494467)
To be clear, Google still offers multiple products (including their primary one, Ads) in the Chinese market and has several offices there.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by gowld on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @07:16PM (#29492347)
That was 10 years ago, before they negotiated for access.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by Thorrez on Thursday December 09, 2021 @01:13AM (#29494396)
Do you have information on what that negotiation or access is?

Full disclosure I work at Google.

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by nathanvanfleet on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @07:23PM (#29492392)
I think you're assuming they are not available because they pushed back on the one specific thing about island size and not something else all together. It's not really proven that they are not available because they have that much integrity.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by ntSean on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @05:27PM (#29491381)
It’s not that they didn’t cave, Google products are unavailable due to sanctions.

Google Search for example was heavily modified for the Chinese market.

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by seanmcdirmid on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @06:25PM (#29491935)
Google did actually make a stand here a decade back, and have been blocked ever since. The last straw for them at the time, however, wasn't political pressure to make some islands look bigger or censor some websites, but espionage.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by bigmattystyles on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @06:04PM (#29491742)
Aren't they unavailable because they specifically didn't cave though?
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by borski on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @06:59PM (#29492227)
No. They’re unavailable because they refused to go back into the market after China got caught using espionage. Were it not for that, it’s very possible Google would have caved; we don’t know how that would have fallen. It’s convenient they didn’t have to answer that, but not because they didn’t cave.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by nerbert on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @09:08PM (#29493006)
It’s not true though. They were under tremendous pressure to adapt their product and change it for the ccp (with censorship for example). They were constantly resisting by introducing workarounds. Until the espionnage thing when they said "fuck it, we’re done". I remember very well: I was living in China at the time.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by magicalist on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @07:25PM (#29492405)
Absence of evidence doesn't seem as definitive as you're making it here, but it's worth noting that we have two counterfactuals we can use as a prior: Bing still works in China and Yahoo only pulled out last summer, in spite of public espionage and hacking incidents.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by lostlogin on Thursday December 09, 2021 @02:29AM (#29494799)
> Bing still works in China

If by ‘works’ you mean it allows searches that China finds acceptable.

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by judge2020 on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @05:51PM (#29491611)
> Google Search for example was heavily modified for the Chinese market.

Do you mean something other than Project Dragonfly, which was terminated?

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by xyzzyz on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @06:14PM (#29491819)
Google had been running search in China up till 2010, and it has been censoring its results according to Chinese government wishes. Then, Google found out that China has been hacking them, got angry and left.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by cromwellian on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @06:52PM (#29492158)
Leaky censoring, you could still find the banned stuff. Sergey Brin was very anti-authoritarian given his background, and Google's decision to leave China was far more principled than "we have no choice". They were given a choice to comply with onerous government restrictions and decided to say no.

(And yes, the "old" Google of the Brin area is gone. I also don't think Steve Jobs would kowtow to the CCP and compromise Apple like Cook is doing. The post 2010-era is now run on bean-counter ethics)

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by xyzzyz on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @08:00PM (#29492603)
Yes, you’re totally right. When I was growing up in 2000s, Google was the epitome of cool, and I dreamed of working there. Then, when I worked there in mid-to-late 2010s, it was not at all what it had been before.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by randmeerkat on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @06:50PM (#29492141)
It’s a little bit more nuanced, China hacked Google, so Google stopped censoring search results, then China banned Google.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by thenthenthen on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @09:15PM (#29493049)
They still maintain a rather large office in the university neighbourhood in Beijing. They even moved to bigger one few years back and there was a fire [0]. In Andrew Blum’s book Google is quotes to even “have left a couple of boxes there”, referring to network equipment. They have not really ‘left’.

[0] https://www.thebeijinger.com/blog/2018/12/13/large-fire-erup...

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by resters on Thursday December 09, 2021 @09:19AM (#29497579)
We should not give Google a pass on this. Google does whatever the US Government wants, and lately the US Government has a far worse humanitarian track record than the Chinese government (when you consider all the civilian death and suffering in the middle east over the past few decades).
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by emsy on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @06:57PM (#29492211)
Google also has an entirely different business model than Apple. You could say they would be in direct competition to the CCP so I don't think this is a reason to hold Google up for their "principles".
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by prewett on Thursday December 09, 2021 @11:52AM (#29499721)
It used to be available at ditu.google.cn (only from within China), don't know if it still is.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by nradov on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @05:09PM (#29491204)
It's location dependent. Apple Maps shows some areas with different size or labels only when you're inside China.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by samstave on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @05:29PM (#29491402)
What happens with satellite view?

What happens in Google Earth?

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by anders_p on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @06:16PM (#29491844)
Google Earth isn't available to the chinese.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by samstave on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @08:06PM (#29492634)
Not what I asked...

What does it look like in google earth when you look at the islands?

from OUTSIDE china... Are these same islands 'cencored' in these apps outside china as well in the same manner? (specifically in SATELLITE view)

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by nradov on Thursday December 09, 2021 @12:52AM (#29494277)
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by samstave on Thursday December 09, 2021 @12:39PM (#29500425)
Right, but I dont see any scaling issues? So I wasnt sure what was being referred to or if "im doing it wrong"?
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by junon on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @04:20PM (#29490670)
This is a mind boggling realization. Is OSM data also compromised in the same way?
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by ryandrake on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @04:24PM (#29490720)
OpenStreetMap has a page[1] on this. TLDR: Private individuals surveying is illegal in China, which seems to outlaw the entire OSM project and any participation or contribution. I am not a lawyer or expert on Chinese law so who knows.

1: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/China

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by javajosh on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @05:33PM (#29491440)
That is rather chilling, is it not? That a nation would prevent its citizens from looking around and measuring what they see? I can't help but wonder how the chickens will come home to roost.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by stjohnswarts on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @08:33PM (#29492791)
No where near as chilling as to be constantly being anxious about your social score, getting disappeared for political speech, overstepping your bounds with a corrupt local government official, and a 100 other things.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by jjeaff on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @10:27PM (#29493459)
Don't forget being disappeared for merely stating that you have been raped by someone who happens to be a powerful political figure.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by ekianjo on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @10:48PM (#29493612)
Or getting your organ harvested while in jail
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by whatshisface on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @05:55PM (#29491648)
Chickens can't find their way home if maps are illegal now can they.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by ngc248 on Thursday December 09, 2021 @02:41AM (#29494849)
They won't even be able to cross the road, hence for the CCP the age old question "Why did the chicken cross the road?" is meaningless :)
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by uuidgen on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @08:13PM (#29492663)
They're preventing citizens from publishing that info, not looking around and measuring from what I found.

Imagine a country that prevents its citizens from recording a song they hear and sharing it with their friends. Oh, wait, US more or less does that and forces other countries to implement policies that prevent it or they will ban trade with those countries.

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by resters on Thursday December 09, 2021 @09:25AM (#29497641)
Well said. The level of blind jingoism on HN is chilling.

Not to mention that the US government gets any data it wants from banks, telcos, social media, google, etc., which is called metadata surveillance here in the US but it is used to formulate a variety of social "scores" such as one's likelihood to commit "terrorism", etc.

The US GPS system had the signals obfuscated for years so that precise geo coordinates were only available for non-civilian uses. Why bother altering the maps if you can alter the GPS signals. This was rolled back only because hacks were found to work around it.

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by javajosh on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @09:31PM (#29493126)
>a country that prevents its citizens from recording a song...

False analogy. No-one claims copy-write on the physical world. Well, not except the CCP.

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by varajelle on Thursday December 09, 2021 @01:11AM (#29494381)
Songs are being played in the physical world.

I think the analogy is perfectly valid anyway. You're just trying to find an excuse to compensate a dissonance. But all rules are arbitrary.

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by 8note on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @10:10PM (#29493351)
That's not true. Building designs have copyrights as do skylines.

Eg the lights on that tower in france

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by Proven on Thursday December 09, 2021 @12:06AM (#29494030)
Unrelated.

Building designs are man-made and in any case this is about taking photographs and not replicating man-made designs.

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by pmontra on Thursday December 09, 2021 @01:40AM (#29494531)
Most of the things we care about on a map are man made too. Roads, tracks, bridges, shops, street addresses. I rarely care about where a mountaintop or a river are. I care for the track to get there or the bridge to cross to the other bank or the road to a restaurant.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by foota on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @05:54PM (#29491644)
That's the chilling thing about Chinese censorship?
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by Eelongate on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @05:57PM (#29491665)
> "the chilling thing"

Your comment implies a singular chilling thing, while his does not.

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by powerapple on Thursday December 09, 2021 @06:43AM (#29496306)
Mostly because every year China would arrest a few Japanese for surveying lands in China. It is funny how surveying a country is so important.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by PoignardAzur on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @05:58PM (#29491679)
I'm no sympathizer to the CCP, but I don't think this argument makes sense in our time.

There's a big gap between a private individual looking around, and lots of private individuals coordinating to look at everything all the time.

Modern technology is making that gap larger year after year.

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by whatshisface on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @05:59PM (#29491700)
That argument would be more appropriate if OSM was about something other than where the streets went.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by int_19h on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @06:36PM (#29492035)
USSR/Russia also had a very long history of restrictions on accurate maps (of just about anything!), on the basis that it is a national security threat if the country ever gets invaded. Street-level maps were broadly available but deliberately falsified:

https://www.nytimes.com/1988/09/03/world/soviet-aide-admits-...

Detailed (<1:2500000) topographic maps were automatically classified as a state secret, and restricted on a "need to know" basis outside of the military until 1989.

A detailed article on this explaining how and why they went about it: http://www.hundzor.org/lj/10postnikov.pdf

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by seniorivn on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @06:57PM (#29492212)
funnily enough correct and detailed maps of ussr were available in nato countries
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by aivisol on Thursday December 09, 2021 @06:12AM (#29496130)
True, and people knew it. I used to travel on the bicycle with the help of USSR maps made in early eighties (due to unavailability of other options), and yes, what you saw on the map was sometimes very different from what was in the real life, especially if you were close to the external border.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by robotresearcher on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @08:41PM (#29492826)
Until 2000, the US reduced the accuracy of GPS for civilian applications. The UK removed street signs and railway station names in anticipation of German invasion in WWII. Kuwaitis removed street signs when Iraq invaded in 1990.

'Where the streets go' is strategically valuable information.

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by hermitdev on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @10:50PM (#29493617)
My understanding is that the resolution of commercially available satellite imagery is restricted by the US. I don't recall details, just passing references from the show "What on Earth?"
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by nradov on Thursday December 09, 2021 @01:01AM (#29494330)
Commercial satellite operators licensed in the US are restricted to no more than 25 cm imagery resolution. Of course that limit doesn't apply to foreign operators. And it doesn't apply to aircraft either; many of the "satellite" images you see on Google Maps were actually shot from airplanes.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by morio on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @06:35PM (#29492014)
Sadly anything can be politicized these days.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by mistrial9 on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @05:58PM (#29491681)
I am curious about this -- is it more complete to say that zero surveying is allowed without a permit, if it is an individual or company or school or anyone?
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by nefitty on Thursday December 09, 2021 @05:43AM (#29495939)
Somewhat related, Natural Earth is a global map dataset in the public domain. I stumbled on this issue regarding Taiwan and China: https://github.com/nvkelso/natural-earth-vector/issues/331

Apparently, the resolution was to create political POV versions, although the default seems to lean toward a "Western-centric" direction.

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by resters on Thursday December 09, 2021 @09:26AM (#29497660)
GPS data from the satellites was intentionally "compromised" for all civilian uses until fairly recently. Why alter the maps if you can alter the GPS.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by gsich on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:15PM (#29493762)
No.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by hyperpallium2 on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @05:00PM (#29491116)
It's the complying not the requiring.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by nradov on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @04:55PM (#29491051)
While these are in no way comparable to China's demands, several other countries have also forced satellite imagery vendors to blur out certain sensitive areas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_satellite_map_images_w...

Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by mitigating on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @05:32PM (#29491424)
They are in no way comparable because if an area in a map is blurred I know the information is restricted.
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by Lamad123 on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @06:18PM (#29491873)
So you just Have to Lie with Maps?
[dead]
Re:Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with Chin... by dang on Thursday December 09, 2021 @01:44PM (#29501232)
You can't attack another user like this on HN, regardless of how wrong they are or you feel they are. You may not feel you owe them better, but you owe this community much better if you're posting to it.

Since you've unfortunately been breaking the site guidelines repeatedly (and egregiously, e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29237513), I've banned this account.

If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email [email protected] and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.