News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by jonas21 on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @12:34AM (#29009579)
The Techspot article is a summary of this Bloomberg piece:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-10-25/bitcoin-s...

which is itself reporting on this paper from the NBER:

https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w29396/w293...

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by YossarianFrPrez on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @02:10AM (#29010052)
Interesting quotes from the first section of the paper:

"We first document that 90% of transaction volume on the Bitcoin blockchain is not tied to economically meaningful activities but is the byproduct of the Bitcoin protocol design as well as the preference of many participants for anonymity."

"We show that the Bitcoin mining capacity is highly concentrated and has been for the last five years. The top 10% of miners control 90% and just 0.1% (about 50 miners) control close to 50% of mining capacity. Furthermore, this concentration of mining capacity is counter cyclical and varies with the Bitcoin price."

"We show that the balances held at intermediaries have been steadily increasing since 2014. By the end of 2020 it is equal to 5.5 million bitcoins, roughly one-third of Bitcoin in circulation. In contrast, individual investors collectively control 8.5 million bitcoins by the end of 2020. The individual holdings are still highly concentrated: the top 1000 investors control about 3 million BTC and the top 10,000 investors own around 5 million bitcoins."

I haven't read the methods yet, but the idea that the authors were able to do this analysis is fascinating.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by 3np on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @06:50AM (#29011517)
> The top 10% of miners control 90% and just 0.1% (about 50 miners) control close to 50% of mining capacity

This is incorrect. Replace "miners" with "mining pools" and they're closer to the mark. What's happened is that the block construction (done by the pool operator) and the PoW (done by miners) are mostly decoupled. Some miners will run everything themselves, but they're not represented in those numbers. (There are some things that can change here in stratum2, the new protocol used for coordinating mining pool s, but whatever)

Sure, pool operators can abuse their power. But as the paper shows, hash power is liquid; miners do move between pools for various reasons.

While there is a bit of a systemic risk there, it's not necessarily as bad as it might seem.

IMO the biggest risk here is censorship; and we saw how responsive miners are to things like that earlier this year with the whole "OFAC-compliant" debacle.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by Kbelicius on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @09:27AM (#29013015)
> This is incorrect. Replace "miners" with "mining pools" and they're closer to the mark.

It is correct. They are talking about miners not mining pools.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by 3np on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @09:46PM (#29021369)
Thanks for pointing that out and unfortunate that I misrepresented it, granted I didn’t read the article properly. As they note themselves it is a best-effort estimation based on publicly available data. Without digging into the data and methodology further, I’m assuming that they are probably at least in the right order of magnitude.

One thing I’m noting is that they exclude ~70% of miners and assign ~30% as exchange miners (note that those two figures only coincidentally add up to 100%). One possible methodology error I can see (and again, further digging would have to be done to verify) is that exchanges often pool their user wallets together; it could be that for some exchange(s), they mistakenly lump together several users as one. Since their claimed concentration is very high, it should be feasible to look at the top 50-100 to cross-check.

Would be awesome to get more research like this.

Overall it’s an insightful article and the authors show great understanding.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by FabHK on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @05:21AM (#29011054)
> just 0.1% (about 50 miners) control close to 50% of mining capacity

So, the much-vaunted "mathematical guarantee" that only 21m BTC will ever be mined depends on the benevolence of those 50 miners not to fiddle with the code base. Makes perfect sense to trust those honourable individuals more than the central bankers in control of fiat. /s

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by tinus_hn on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @05:40AM (#29011148)
How are these miner going to fiddle with the code on your computer?

That is not the issue caused by this concentration of mining power.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by CompuHacker on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @05:51AM (#29011198)
If those 50 people start playing by different rules, the sum of the value of the two resulting currencies will probably be less than that of BTC as it stands now.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by tinus_hn on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @06:00AM (#29011241)
No, if they start to play with different rules their mined blocks will be refused by everyone on the network and be worthless. That’s not what the issue is with concentrated mining power.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by arcatek on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @06:12AM (#29011303)
If they start to play with different rules, one of the hard fork remaining branches (or both) will be refused by everyone on the network and be worthless.

There's no telling whether it'd be the "hijacked" branch or the original one - assuming they control 50%+ of the mining power, there's a decent argument that the remaining miners would follow their lead if only to stay on the largest branch.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by dannyw on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @06:40AM (#29011462)
What miners do is irrelevant: the code known as bitcoin, with a 21M hard cap, simply will reject any block that creates more than its allowed bitcoins as invalid, the same way it rejects a random string of bytes as invalid.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by danbruc on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @07:08AM (#29011628)
Depending on your definitions this might or might no be true but it also might be totally irrelevant.

There is a protocol and system specification. There are implementations of that specifications. There is a distributed system running those implementations. And the distributed system has a state. Each of those can change and each of those or a combination of them could arguably be called Bitcoin.

If everyone would run new implementations with a different coin cap, you can argue that it is no longer Bitcoin because Bitcoin is a very specific specification with a 21M coin cap, but this would have little bearing on the actual situation.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by tinus_hn on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @10:56AM (#29014122)
This is like saying because some people own the majority of printing presses, money is worthless.

Money has worth because people accept it in exchange for goods and services.

Bitcoin has worth because people accept it in exchange for goods and services.

It’s not the miners that create value, it’s the merchants. If miners start some fork they’ll leave the main blockchain, which will run fine without them. And they have absolutely no way of forcing anyone to use their fork. Only if the merchants start accepting coins from the forked blockchain will it become valuable. But that’s up to the merchants, not the miners.

There are problems with one miner controlling over 50% of the mining power. This is not such a problem.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by namaria on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @05:15PM (#29019239)
Cryptoheads really gone from "printed money is becoming worthless, we need currency with enforced scarcity" to "it's all arbitrary anyway".

It's been quite educational watching the whole cryptocurrency community re-invent economics 101 and find out the problem has never been technical, always been political.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by jstanley on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @07:49AM (#29011939)
The point is you need the economic majority to be on side in order to succeed with a hard fork. Just the top 50 miners switching on their own isn't enough.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by thesz on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @08:54AM (#29012680)
Add 50 more - to reduce hash rate even more. Announce hard fork right after difficulty adjustment. And then, suddenly, these who have not forked will be stalled for several weeks. Instead of 10 minutes per block, the time will be 30 minutes and possibly more. And to adjust the difficulty those who have not forked would need... a hard fork?

Yes, these 100 miners are pools. But where pool participants will go then? Will pools who have not forked keep pool participation fees low?

Etc.

The game here is not quite simple. It is much more complex than appears at first sight.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by tinus_hn on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @11:06AM (#29014287)
The difficulty adjusts automatically. Bitcoin wouldn’t have come this far if it were that fragile.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by jstanley on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @11:07AM (#29014297)
It doesn't adjust immediately though. If a large majority of miner suddenly disappears then the block mining rate does indeed drop until the next difficulty adjustment.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by tinus_hn on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @12:46PM (#29015767)
So if 50% of the mining power left the next block would take on average about 20 minutes. Where it routinely takes about that long, because that’s just the way statistics work. A non issue.

Here’s a graph of the time blocks took over the last three years:

https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/bitcoin-confirmationtim...

Look at the peaks and try to remember the issues that resulted in.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by thesz on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @02:24PM (#29017057)
First, 20 minutes in average for power-distributed time-to-block would result in much, much higher peaks. In your chart I see 25 minutes for a block, then it will be 50 minutes.

Second, instead of two weeks to hash rate adjustment, it will take four weeks.

And if these staying with this slow bitcoin would decide to leave to more profitable currencies (not necessarily Bitcoin, there are other SHA256-based PoW schemes), that will push hash rate adjustment even further into future.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by tinus_hn on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @03:06PM (#29017634)
These 25 minute peaks were caused by a similar event, witness the also slow rates in the surrounding blocks. So that’s approximately how bad it would get in this ‘disastrous’ event.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/03/bitcoin-mining-difficulty-dr...

We survived.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by UncleMeat on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @08:02AM (#29012069)
In the sense that updating the code to do something else would make it “not Bitcoin”, sure. But I really don’t think this matters to much of anybody if the “OG Bitcoin” drops to zero and the hard fork with new behavior wins.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by capableweb on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @06:26AM (#29011378)
Developers of the core protocol would notice, add a flag and then miners/clients/exchanges who want to remain with the same dev team can signal they want to follow the "dev" chain instead of the "miner" chain.

Usually forks have checkpoints as well so things can't change willy-nilly.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by jstanley on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @07:50AM (#29011944)
If blocks in the "miner" chain break the rules of the "dev" chain, then no flag is required. You'll automatically stick with the chain that contains valid blocks, as determined by the implementation that you're running.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by analog31 on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @05:25PM (#29019338)
Does this mean if enough people don't like you, they can cancel your money?
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by jornhub on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @06:53AM (#29011536)
If they have the majority mining power they could equally well undermine the security of the original branch, rendering it worthless as well. Miners have interests, core developers have interests, bitcoin users have all kinds of interests, none of them on their own decides what will happen. Without miners there is no bitcoin, but neither is there without developers or without users. Would you feel safe having your savings stored in the original bitcoin fork, knowing there is a mining cartel that holds 50% mining power? Some users will accept reasonable changes that weere lobbied for by the miners, if that means they get to enjoy the security provided by the miners.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by Melting_Harps on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @09:50AM (#29013249)
> If those 50 people start playing by different rules, the sum of the value of the two resulting currencies will probably be less than that of BTC as it stands now.

This is less a criticism towards you @CompuHacker and more about how ill-informed reporters are (especially it's most vocal critics) about Bitcoin's history.

We already went through this during the USAF/Segwit war that went on for far too long if you were there and delayed so many other key features that we are only now catching up to. With the added caveat that Roger Veer (a VERY ignorant whale with influencer status) and Jihan (CEO at the time of Bitmain with a monopoly on ASIC miners and large hashing power on the network) decided to hi-jack Bitcoin for their own ends. There were other whales/high net worth entities, including Coinbase, but lets keep it simple for arguments sake.

In short, it didn't work and no one uses/used their fork (Bcash) because the end result was that Bitcoin's mainchain and it's features was valued far more than what whales and hashing power/devices. Furthermore, upon the fork people arbitraged the coin and dumped it in exchange for Bitcoin and Bcash has never recovered since. Showing that playing by the rules has it's incentives and is rewarded: rewarding consensus is one of Bitcoin's core features, and I wish more people would realize this is the ecosystem is far more conducive toward progress than abject discord.

What's even more amusing is that a core developer of Bitcoin Core decided to help patch some of Bcash's source code, showing that what you fear has actually already played out and proved why Bitcoin has already proven itself and has a the battle scars to prove it.

It's remarkable what has happened in this space in the last 12 years, and in my ideal World I think their would be more time spent on that and what it has taught us via empirical experimentation rather than just the price.

Sidenote: It's why the plot of the 51% attack on the series Silicon Valley only made sense to people who really have no idea how the network attack would actually play out on decentralized networks.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by Valakas_ on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @05:53AM (#29011208)
No. Who holds the real power are nodes. Miners are just workers doing their job and getting paid for it.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by yourapostasy on Thursday October 28, 2021 @02:50PM (#29029911)
> ...the benevolence of those 50 miners...

What mechanisms do those 50 miners have to coordinate amongst each other, starting with how do they identify each other, communicate with each other, then overcome Prisoner's Dilemma in negotiating with each other?

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by worrycue on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @05:59AM (#29011233)
Being able to print more would actually be a benefit as it allows for inflation. Central banks typically aim for 1-3% inflation to get people spending money and allowing the economy to function instead of just hoarding it.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by Siira on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @07:18AM (#29011710)
“Hoarding” money, also known as saving in esoteric circles.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by bart_spoon on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @12:20PM (#29015370)
Its not simply "saving". Its where money is so much more valuable tomorrow than it is today, literally no one buys anything because why buy X today when you can buy 2 of X tomorrow? So the economy grinds to a halt.

Also, it exacerbates inequality immensely. When deflation is high, it means your existing money becomes more and more valuable for no other reason than existing. So the "rich get richer" in the most literal sense, for no other reason than having been rich in the first place. No investment or risk required.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by worrycue on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @08:12AM (#29012157)
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by mensetmanusman on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @07:52AM (#29011969)
The funny thing is that death or mental illness by a hoarder means the btc go poof until the end of time.

Therefore, over a long enough time scale, the number of available BTC tends towards zero.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by ur-whale on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @08:17AM (#29012213)
That's assuming that BTC's aren't infinitely divisible.

Currently, you can only chop them up into atoms worth 1e-8 BTC (satoshis), but there isn't much that needs be changed in the code and the protocol to get that to much finer grained.

Therefore, it's unlikely that there will ever be zero bitcoins.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by noch on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @09:27AM (#29013020)
> Currently, you can only chop them up into atoms worth 1e-8 BTC (satoshis), but there isn't much that needs be changed in the code and the protocol to get that to much finer grained.

Such a change would be a hard fork and, as you know, we don't do that in Bitcoin. But, no worries because we have millisatoshis in Lightning. Because Bitcoin scales in layers, each layer can implement more and more divisibility as required.

https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/a/69704

As you said, bitcoin is infinitely divisible, therefore the world economy can run on 1 btc or 1 satoshi.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by ur-whale on Thursday October 28, 2021 @02:28PM (#29029517)
> Such a change would be a hard fork and, as you know, we don't do that in Bitcoin.

True, it'd be a hard fork. However, I don't believe hard forks are impossible if managed properly.

The taproot upgrade (not a hard fork, I know) was rather uncontroversial and accepted rather easily.

I suspect a hard fork allowing for - say - bitcoin amounts encoded in 64 bits would not necessarily generate the kind of upheaval the blocksize wars did.

And, hopefully, even for controversial upgrades, the lessons of said wars will have been learnt and the process of upgrading Bitcoin can be done in a slightly more reasonable / orderly fashion.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by spiralx on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @10:25PM (#29021620)
Whether you cut a pie into 10 million slices or 10 billion slices you still only have one pie in total in the same way that changing ten dimes for a hundred cents still means you have a dollar.

In a world where only 1,000,000 BTC remain in circulation if one person owns 500,000 of them means he controls half of the total value of BTC and that everyone else's coins will add up to the other 500,000 BTC, and being able to divide the each BTC into smaller and smaller amounts doesn't change that fact. Whether we can divide 500,000 BTC into 50 trillion Satoshis or 5 quadrillion "New Satoshis" worth 1e-10 BTC each doesn't make new wealth appear.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by xtracto on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @12:23PM (#29015425)
This is something not so many people take into account regarding cryptocurrencies. The real "total number" of any cryptocurrency is the total number of decimals they contain. There are currently a total of 2,100,000,000,000,000 Satoshis. A satoshi is $0.00059 USD. A Satoshi could cost $0.01 (1 cent) and it could still be paired with the US economy. If 99% of Satoshis became unavailable, we would still have 21,000,000,000,000 of Satoshis in circulation.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by glenvdb on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @06:51AM (#29011524)
You've revealed plainly that you haven't got a clue what you're talking about.

Miners can't change the protocol of the entire network.

The only malevolent thing they could do is perform a 51% attack if they all colluded together. And even that wouldn't achieve much, so there's not much incentive to do it. All they can do is a double spend. They would've been better off spending that energy on mining blocks to be rewarded with the Bitcoin subsidy.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by FabHK on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @09:24AM (#29012975)
So, let's play that out. Suppose 90% of miners (hash power) collude (as GP posited), for example validating blocks with a larger coinbase (mining reward). The "good" nodes don't accept these (but the "bad" miners can trivially have many nodes that do accept them). But now the "good" hash power drops to 10%, so only every 100 minutes a "good" block is mined (suppose this happened just after a difficulty adjustment), and that goes on for 20 weeks. In the meantime, the bad nodes and miners carry on as before, pretty much, but with their malicious change incorporated. If they're bored, they can devote some of their hash power to double spend attack the "good" chain. Which chain will come out on top?

Sure, it's unlikely. But not impossible. Just as runaway inflation in a reasonably managed fiat currency is not impossible. Just unlikely. (And, yes, hyper inflation has happened historically. Similarly, rewriting of the immutable Ethereum chain and BTC forks have happened historically.)

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by Sohcahtoa82 on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @05:43PM (#29019490)
A malicious set of miners that decides to give itself a higher block reward will never have their blocks accepted by the "good" nodes. It's quite simply not possible. The blocks will be invalid and therefore rejected outright. It doesn't matter how much hashing power is behind them.

> If they're bored, they can devote some of their hash power to double spend attack the "good" chain. Which chain will come out on top?

That's a different attack entirely.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by eraad on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @06:34AM (#29092898)
Is this just a hard fork? This exists, I believe its called Bitcoin Cash or Bitcoin "Satoshi Vision".
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by H8crilA on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @07:05AM (#29011603)
Well, Ethereum miners decide on changing the protocol like all the time.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by woah on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @08:03AM (#29012085)
Also wrong. For an Ethereum (or bitcoin) upgrade that requires a hard fork to be accepted as “being Ethereum”, all the users running Ethereum nodes need to be OK with it and update their full node software to that version.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by christophilus on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @07:09AM (#29011634)
BTC != ETH. This is one of the arguments in BTC’s favor.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by paisawalla on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @02:29AM (#29010146)
As someone who's read the paper, do you know how they account for ownership by exchanges? There's got to be a large amount of BTC that is held in Coinbase's wallets, but actually owned by many more individuals.

I.e. isn't the BTC I have parked at Coinbase is in the same wallet as many of their other customers' BTC, and shows up on the blockchain as one owner by this analysis?

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by rmbyrro on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @04:10AM (#29010710)
It doesn't change the fact that it is a risk to the system that comes from centralization
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by Hermel on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @02:19AM (#29010093)
The top 1000 investors hold 15% of the supply? That’s not “highly centralized” if you compare to the stock market. For Tesla, one single shareholder holds 17% of the whole company.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by nuerow on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @03:04AM (#29010352)
> For Tesla, one single shareholder holds 17% of the whole company.

If said investor abused his leverage to manipulate the stock value to dump his holding on unwitting buyers prior to making it tank, he would be facing a prison sentence.

In BTC that would be just another uneventful day.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by csomar on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @05:50AM (#29011192)
So what you are basically saying is that the stock market is not really a free market; and has arbitrary restrictions to make everything looks stable and legit. Okay.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by toofy on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @05:58AM (#29011226)
I don’t think any serious person has ever implied the stock market has no regulations/protections.

I mean, are you surprised that some things are illegal? Of course not, no one is surprised by this.

Could you imagine what a clusterfuck the market would be with no regulations?

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by throw0101a on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @07:17AM (#29011706)
> Could you imagine what a clusterfuck the market would be with no regulations?

Generally regulations are written after clusterfucks have occurred to reduce the risk of them happening again.

It's the same reason we have building codes: after a Great Fire or two happens in a given city, fire breaks are usually mandated.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by toofy on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @07:59AM (#29012031)
Absolutely. This is why in the digital currency realm we’ll absolutely see a repeat of many the exact same grifts over and over again that we’ve already gone through and already figured out how to mitigate. But we’ll just fall for them all over again.

It’s amazing to me how many times we’re repeating the same mistakes over and over again that we’ve made in the relatively recent past because “it’ll be different this time because technology!” or whatever—and i don’t only mean in the coin sphere.

I work, live, breathe, eat and play with technology however, quite a few people, usually those falling for marketing hype have deluded themselves pretty hard. Humanity scale chaotic complexity problems still exist and technology isn’t even close to solving those and won’t be for a long, long time.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by gitfan86 on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @08:26AM (#29012309)
It is the same reason you still see banner adds with a beautiful woman saying that she is looking for a hookup in your town. Also the reason we have lottery tickets and casinos and pyramid schemes. People logically know it is risky, but they want to give it a chance just in case this time is different.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by chalst on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @06:37AM (#29011443)
There is something like a global market in stock markets: capital trade gravitates to the "fittest" stock markets. And in the long term the fittest stock markets are without exceptions ones with transparency rules and rules protecting minority investors, where these rules are backed up by national laws that give these rules teeth.

There's a reason for this: while in the short term dropping these rules gives flexibility, lower costs and the promise of new sources of profit, inevitably if unruly capital markets get big, small investors get screwed and a lot of investor wealth gets destroyed. We've seen this pattern a lot over the last two centuries.

Simplistic free market ideology has a lot to answer for: successful markets need well-functioning institutions.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by nuerow on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @05:54AM (#29011209)
> So what you are basically saying is that the stock market is not really a free market; and has arbitrary restrictions to make everything looks stable and legit. Okay.

That makes as much sense as claiming that a free society isn't really free because you're subjected to arbitrary restrictions that punish you for stealing and embezzling.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by darkcha0s on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @06:23AM (#29011359)
I can't murder my neighbour, so you're saying we are not actually living in a free society
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by lowdownfork on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @12:41PM (#29015695)
Those sound like non-arbitrary restrictions to make everything actually be stable and legit.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by ianai on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @06:37AM (#29011441)
I often wonder about this. How liquid are these coins? Ie if it’s a currency then converting every single coin to cash should result in no change to the conversion rate. If exchanging x coin to cash will net about the going rate, but ax results in dramatically less than a*conversion rate then it’s not a currency. If the difference is even further diminished it challenges the notion of it as a store of value.

Edit-This would also provide people who want to cash a large amount of crypto to cash an incentive to prop up the value during their transaction period.

Edit2-latest I can find, it was about $6.6 trillion dollars worth of daily forex activity back in 2019. Also note, this is cited as the biggest market in the world by trading volume. https://www.bis.org/statistics/rpfx19_fx.htm

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by dkersten on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @07:06AM (#29011616)
> if it’s a currency then converting every single coin to cash should result in no change to the conversion rate

Is that how it works for currency? I would think that if people tried to sell every single Euro for USD, the conversion rate would absolutely change.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by ianai on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @08:16AM (#29012198)
I did try to find a metric for what I was referring to here. It seems to be a number not easily found out about bitcoin. The size of the daily forex trading was around $6.6 trillion in 2019 - see my original comment for comparison.

Realistically, I was thinking of trading cash for cash of one nationality- which absolutely wouldn't change the face denominated. Kind of tautological and not as helpful. Probably testing whether bitcoin to usd acts similarly to another foreign currency to usd may be a useful metric.

But why do people exchange international currencies? So some are just forex traders performing intraday arbitrage. But the real/biggest use of it is to exchange goods across national borders. That's a use which cannot exist with the cryptos in quite the same way. Even if a nation adopts a crypto like bitcoin as its currency it does not have the same function as a currency backed by that government since bitcoin is controlled by other people - see the nber article referenced here.

Edit - my main point remains about the exchange elasticity of crypto to usd/a national currency. If the exchange rate changes rapidly with the number of crypto exchanged then it's not very liquid, by definition, and not storing value nor acting like a currency.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by gomox on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @07:21AM (#29011727)
It's not even remotely close to how it works for currency.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by capableweb on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @04:40AM (#29010838)
The problem is that an investor that holds 17% has leverage. In Bitcoin, having a certain percentage of the supply means nothing really, and you can abuse a leverage that doesn't exist.

It's more likely that the developers has leverage that could be abused, but then their own holdings would tank, so unlikely to happen.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by bbarnett on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @05:13AM (#29011007)
Unless the goal is to attract independent / free market types, then after they invest, destroy BTC, thus reducing the economic might of the free thinking class...
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by somethoughts on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @02:42AM (#29010236)
There seem to be a lot of similarities between crypto and growth stocks that are held by founders with > 15% ownership. Similar to early stage investors who have essentially zero cost basis, early BTC holders have zero cost basis when BTC was pennies each versus late stage current investors paying in at $60,000 for each BTC. For early BTC holders its easy to diamond hand.

There are a lot of similarities for sure between Tesla stock and BTC in terms of price versus traditional measures of value (based on current income and enterprise value), not to mention the volatility.

There is not as much price discovery when a handful of owners own more than 50% of stock or crypto and are easily diamond handing. The price discovery is only happening on the portion that's actively trading which can distort the market price. I bet in the early days of BTC there were a lot of tricks like the Jason Fried/DHH Basecamp unicorn example[1].

As they eventually lose interest/need to pass assets to the kids, when they start unloading, there will be price drops as there were once Bill Gates started unloading MSFT stock. Part of the challenge that Steve Ballmer faced (other than lackluster leadership) was the headwinds and downward pressure created by BillG's retirement related unloading of MSFT stock.

[1] https://signalvnoise.com/posts/1941-press-release-37signals-...

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by discobean on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @07:12AM (#29011662)
> For early BTC holders its easy to diamond hand That's not true, say your investment of a few dollars is now $1k. And the price is popping and just dropped 30% in one day? Would you sell for the profit? What if that investment got to 10k? 100k?

People sell at some point. I'd argue it's incredibly hard to diamond hand for early holders, that is why there are more stories of people selling their coin for cheap rather than diamond hands.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by gomox on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @07:23AM (#29011747)
I think he meant its easy _now_. Once you are 10.000x on your investment your perspective drastically changes.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by gitfan86 on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @08:21AM (#29012243)
The big difference between BTC and MSFT/TSLA is that successful companies have cash flow. MSFT has a dividend that it pays out every year. TSLA is eliminating debt and adding cash to its balance sheet.

If everyone stopped buying BTC and only held BTC and bought another crypto currency, BTC would go to zero since no one would be putting money in. Similar to a pyramid scheme, once there is no new money it collapses.

On the other hand, if investors decided to never buy MSFT again and sold their stock the price could go down a lot, but it couldn't go to zero because that would make the dividend yield go to infinity. If MSFT went down to $20/share it would yield over 10% a year, and it is absurd to think that no one would want to get 10% a year return.

Obviously companies can and do go bankrupt, but for this comparison I'm comparing successful crypto to successful companies.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by tata71 on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @09:45AM (#29013200)
If every new person being born started using cryptocurrency and refused to use USD, since there is no new money, it collapses.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by gitfan86 on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @10:55AM (#29014106)
Exactly, currencies have no cashflow. They can go up and down relative to many other things, but essentially their only value is if other people are willing to trade for other things with them.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by tata71 on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @01:58PM (#29016704)
...the next generation trusted DOGE to the tune of 900%+ growth this year.

It feels foolish to be long USD at the moment.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by gitfan86 on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @03:09PM (#29017680)
Why on earth would anyone be "long USD". The fed has had a policy of 1%+ inflation for decades. It is designed to go down in value over time.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by tata71 on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @03:11PM (#29017707)
This year it saw... 3? 6? Who knows. Also, not what I was referring to!
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by somethoughts on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @11:27PM (#29022039)
Sorry for the late reply - yeah I was mostly talking about 2008 negative income TSLA when they only made the Tesla roadster, and no income MSFT when they made Windows 3.1 and their PE ratio was 80.

Perhaps its better to throw in some growth stocks that ended up not being particularly amazing such as WeWork, Evernote, Zynga, etc. All had low stock float, no/negative income and so were trading on emotion.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by skinnymuch on Thursday October 28, 2021 @11:17PM (#29034790)
WeWork went public this week. Zynga is the big example used all the time as a huge failure. When it isn’t so bad. Evernote isn’t public. It’s been down hill for a while.

Are you talking secondary markets?

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by 2muchcoffeeman on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @02:27AM (#29010137)
But isn’t the dream to have some distributed system that no one can control? As an outsider looking in and comparing to the perceived values, this is yet another reason crypto is not worth your attention.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by po1nt on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @02:56AM (#29010299)
I don't believe total decentralization is possible. Yet still this ratio is a little unsettling. This issue is not limited to bitcoin but all the cryptocurrencies. But I believe it's still better than to have single party control the whole currency.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by More-nitors on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @04:48AM (#29010883)
well wasn't the dream about "no-fee transactions"?

"no one can control" means:

1. you can't get bail-outs from phishing/fraud/mistakes (there are card companies/banks that actually provide this service)

2. combined with anonymity, means more wiggle-room for tax-evasion/black-market... (though if you look carefully, you'll have to 'financially-dance' a lot to get actual anonymity in bitcoin... all transactions are logged, right?)

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by Gustomaximus on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @02:34AM (#29010185)
A company is very different from a currency. Apples and oranges comparing those in terms of centralisation.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by beambot on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @03:05AM (#29010354)
How does the USD currency compare? I'd wager that the top-10 banks and the various central reserve banks own or control the vast majority of USD.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by TeMPOraL on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @03:53AM (#29010629)
If Bitcoin is comparable to USD, then there's nothing justifying its use over USD, with its associated ludicrous waste of energy and environmental impact.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by fsflover on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @05:05AM (#29010965)
The government can print USD for themselves, effectively stealing money from everyone through inflation. With bitcoin, even "small group controlling 90%" can't do that.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by FabHK on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @05:24AM (#29011072)
Sure they can. There's a line in the code halving the codebase mining reward every 210,000 blocks. Just comment that line out (or replace halving with doubling). Done.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by mateuszf on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @06:27AM (#29011382)
That would create a fork that nobody would use (because bitcoin holders are incentivised by the halving mechanism).
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by FabHK on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @08:17AM (#29012206)
> a fork that nobody would use

Except the "small group controlling 90%" of mining power that introduced that change (in the hypothetical example) would use it. And their chain would grow longer and be the canonical one (though that, of course, is also just a convention encoded in the code). And they could still spend some 20% or so of their hash power to entirely mess up the one true chain, if they so desired.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by derangedHorse on Friday October 29, 2021 @12:14AM (#29035110)
If they moved to that chain and contributed their hash power there, it wouldn't automatically make the chain they're working on the canonical one. A change in the the protocol would not ensure consensus between the 2 chains. And regardless of how much hash power they have they probably wouldn't be able to "mess up the one true chain".

The history of the bitcoin blockchain can't be changed unless a miner can contribute the same amount of work it took to generate the section of blockchain they'd wish to change (so from a historical start block to the latest block). Even then, the most they can do is undo payments and double spend coins. This would probably not be economically viable since Bitcoin clients would probably start to blacklist expenditures from the miners addresses if suspicions of a double spend attack arose. Because wallets and nodes can tell when there's forks, people would also pick up on double spends which would disqualify any and all money attempted for the double spend. Overall it would probably be cheaper to just spend coins fairly.

Also, as an aside, the protocol-valid bitcoin blockchain with the most work gets chosen, not the longest* blockchain

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by andruby on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @08:57AM (#29012711)
if the nodes don't upgrade their software to the code version with the commented line, they would reject those new blocks, regardless of it being the longest chain.

You would need to control the majority (of the important) nodes to be able to pull this off. If the nodes are incentivised to keep the limit, they will.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by fsflover on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @08:56AM (#29012699)
This group could continue using their version of the blockchain, but nobody else would accept it. New miners would appear on the original blockchain, making this group obsolete.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by fsflover on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @05:45AM (#29011166)
It would bring bitcoin price down to zero. Also, I'm not sure that miners can do that without everyone else agreeing.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by nuerow on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @06:58AM (#29011559)
> The government can print USD for themselves, effectively stealing money from everyone through inflation.

Not quite. The only people bitten by inflation in the long run are those who stockpile cash and intend to perpetually live off capital gains without contributing anything to society. Meanwhile, the vast majority, which are either salaried employees or own businesses, see both their income and expenditures adjusted to inflation.

This is in fact one of the often ignored aspects of inflation, as well as taxes: a way to mitigate or avoid concentrations of wealth detrimental to society.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by fsflover on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @07:57AM (#29012013)
> The only people bitten by inflation in the long run are those who stockpile cash and intend to perpetually live off capital gains without contributing anything to society.

This is completely missing the point. People with big amounts of cash never keep it, they invest in something to avoid inflation. The only people who suffer are poor people who happen to have a small amount of USD saved for a rainy day.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by argentinian on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @08:00AM (#29012047)
> This is in fact one of the often ignored aspects of inflation, as well as taxes: a way to mitigate or avoid concentrations of wealth detrimental to society.

As somebody living in Argentina, a country with usual double digit inflation, your argument is complete bullshit.

Here the wealthy are not affected by inflation: they can save in real state, strong currencies, shares... And the same rich families stay rich for generations. We also have very high taxes.

Inflation harms the poor more than the rich. Try living in Argentina for some years and you will learn.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by nuerow on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @08:12AM (#29012149)
> As somebody living in Argentina, a country with usual double digit inflation, your argument is complete bullshit.

The only bullshit I spot is this idea to use Argentina, or Zimbabwe or Venezuela, as the posterchild of responsible monetary and economic policies, when they are actually the result of gross and perpetual mismanagement.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-argentina-faces-an-economic...

Meanwhile most of the world reaps the benefits of sane and responsible monetary policies, and thus is free from hyperinflation, and somehow that's supposed to mean nothing? Only your cherry-picked appeals to emotion matter?

Even the European Union, which has been subjected to quantitative easing policies from around a whole decade and thus has been seeing their central banks print money like crazy, at most only complains about low inflation and mild economic stagnation.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by ephbit on Thursday October 28, 2021 @06:43AM (#29024436)
> Even the European Union, which has been subjected to quantitative easing policies from around a whole decade and thus has been seeing their central banks print money like crazy, at most only complains about low inflation and mild economic stagnation.

The part with print money like crazy is absolutely true. The claim that there's low inflation in Europe, is absolutely false. Official inflation numbers are relatively low only because real estate and other things are arbitrarily excluded from cpi. It's always astounding to me how people can pretend as if rising real estate prices did somehow not trickle down to rents and thus effectively all everyday purchases, people make.

The world is full of zero-sum games whose existence people often deny ... just because many of them are long and complex and interconnected chains of interactions which means they are lots of work to describe accurately doesn't mean they're not there.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by argentinian on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @08:17AM (#29012210)
I agree, the inflation here is the effect of the perpetual and gross mismanagement.

What about your idea regarding inflation as a way to avoid concentrations of wealth? (the idea I quoted and I replied to). That one is unsustainable.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by bart_spoon on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @12:52PM (#29015839)
There is a distinction between inflation and hyperinflation. An analogy would be someone saying that a modest reduction in caloric intake is healthy for most people, and you responding that it isn't, anorexics die without enough calories.

When inflation is present, but less than 3%, there isn't an incentive to hoard it, because simply sticking it in a bank account means it will be slightly less valuable a year from now than it is today. For poor people, who are spending most of their money on necessities, it won't mean much (unless their employers don't match incomes with inflation, which IS a problem). But for rich people, it offers a powerful incentive to spend today, or to invest their money with hopes that the returns will offset the inflation. A rich person's money flowing through the economy, be it through exchange for goods, or through investment, is far more valuable to society than it is sitting under their mattress.

Debts are also easier to pay off. With inflation, your debt of $X is easier to pay off in the future than it is today. Poor people struggle to pay off debt more than rich people, and governments are more likely to rack up debts to pay for public works and infrastructure, knowing the bill will be easier to pay down the line with inflation.

Compare that to deflation. With deflation, your money gets more valuable over time, not because you invested it in something useful, but simply because it exists. Now if you are rich, why do anything at all with your money other than stick it under a mattress? Why spend it, or take the risks that come with investment, when you are guaranteed it will be worth more than you have now in the future? Poor people don't have this luxury. They have to spend money on their needs today, which means they are missing out on even more value tomorrow.

Deflation is just as toxic to the economy, and especially poor people, as hyperinflation.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by ephbit on Thursday October 28, 2021 @07:49AM (#29024928)
> For poor people, who are spending most of their money on necessities, it won't mean much (unless their employers don't match incomes with inflation, which IS a problem). But for rich people, it offers a powerful incentive to spend today, or to invest their money with hopes that the returns will offset the inflation.

The way I see this, there's a fallacy there.

The claim, that inflation won't matter much for poor people is wrong. Even if their employers compensate for inflation with accordingly increased salary (which they don't always do) then there's still the fact that poor people are treading their treadmill, unable to advance one bit. In the best case they stay right where they are (relative to others).

Rich people on the other hand have the "burden" of sitting on assets that do not suffer inflation. And any excess money they earn which they don't need to spend on everyday items, they can put into investments that again do not lose value like cash does (under inflationary circumstances).

Quite simple: rich people have opportunities to invest and earn profits, letting them improve their position relative to poor people even further. Poor people don't have these opportunities and they even have to constantly fight for compensation of inflation while having shorter levers to push everywhere in society.

If rich people weren't urged to invest money they have sitting around (by threat of inflation), they'd maybe just hoard bigger proportions of it and sometimes spend some, instead of using it to acquire ever increasing proportions of assets from poorer people who have to sell. I'd say inflation almost directly causes wealth concentration.

In this way, inflation does indeed mean much for poor people. No, it's not totally obvious, kind of counterintuitive even. But it's true.

The current development is like a continuously happending race along a path of steadily increasing availability of pleasant goods and opportunities ... where the rich are moving significantly faster along the path than the poor. Yes, the poor do advance, but the lead of the rich continually grows larger. Since wealth is psychologically very much a relative thing, this is bad, even if the absolute wealth of the poor is indeed increasing over time.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by argentinian on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @02:17PM (#29016959)
see answer to brother comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29013635

mainly the referenced links

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by nuerow on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @09:53AM (#29013281)
> What about your idea regarding inflation as a way to avoid concentrations of wealth? (the idea I quoted and I replied to). That one is unsustainable.

You're free to discuss the facts I've pointed out, instead of going off on a tangent with a non-sequitur regarding Argentina's hyperinflation. It's undeniable that stockpiling cash out of the economy has a deeply negative social, economic, and even fiscal impact on a nation. Inflation provides an incentive to actually put the money to use, and interest rates for the most conservative investments, like risk-free bonds, are then used to provide incentives to couple investments with economic cycles.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by argentinian on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @10:22AM (#29013635)
You said that inflation and taxes are a way to mitigate or avoid concentrations of wealth.

As a counterargument I said that rich people don't save in cash and that inflation damages the poor more than the rich, the world bank has evidence for that: https://openknowledge.worldbank.org/bitstream/handle/10986/1...

> Inflation provides an incentive to actually put the money to use,

Inflation provides an incentive to get rid of the money that loses its value over time and instead change it for something else. This not only affects the rich, but also the poor. An effect is that it becomes more difficult for the poor to save and invest. The rich can handle inflation much better than the poor.

I found another article that arguments about this https://mises.org/library/whats-so-scary-about-deflation

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by fsflover on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @08:22AM (#29012249)
And you are sure that the US government will never, ever mismanage anything?
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by nuerow on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @09:42AM (#29013177)
> And you are sure that the US government will never, ever mismanage anything?

The US, unlike Argentina, hasn't spent over a decade experiencing with a >10% inflation rate, and half a decade at >25%.

Most of the world hasn't.

Until it does, any comparison with Argentina, or any country experiencing years of hyperinflation as a result of gross mismanagement, is overwhelmingly positive.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by bart_spoon on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @12:32PM (#29015531)
They are speaking of modest inflation, the 1-3% mentioned above. Obviously hyperinflation is bad. But deflation will also harm the poor just as much, while the rich are the sole benefactors.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by christophilus on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @07:12AM (#29011663)
AKA stealing from the elderly to fund today’s excesses.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by nuerow on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @07:42AM (#29011891)
> * AKA stealing from the elderly to fund today’s excesses.*

I appreciate a good appeal to pity, but unfortunately you got it completely wrong. Even though pension funds use investments to complement their investment pool, they are primarily funded through contributions from the employer and existing members as an income redistribution scheme[1].

[1] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/pensionplan.asp

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by littlestymaar on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @04:09PM (#29018479)
Ever heard of things like Bitcoin cash or Bitcoin gold? Everybody owning BTC before the fork then owned an additional bitcoin ersatz, and these “fake bitcoin” are now worth a few billions.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by worrycue on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @06:05AM (#29011271)
They can but generally they don’t allow inflation to exceed 3% - ideally keeping it with 1-3% - as the destruction of the currency is not worth it long term.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by fsflover on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @06:44AM (#29011485)
So with USD, you trust that people care about long term consequences over short-term profit? With bitcoin, you trust math.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by bart_spoon on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @12:30PM (#29015510)
With Bitcoin, the math says that deflationary currencies are destined for failure.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by FabHK on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @08:18AM (#29012221)
> With bitcoin, you trust math.

No, you trust the 50 miners that control the majority of the hash power not to mess with the code that embodies your math (or doesn't, as the case may be).

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by fsflover on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @08:56AM (#29012707)
No, you trust the majority of people running the code, not just miners: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29012699.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by FabHK on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @09:25AM (#29012993)
What if the majority of people running nodes disagrees with the majority of hash power holders? Running a node is cheap.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by neuroma on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @04:06AM (#29010691)
While I'm sure you're correct, does that make the comparison any less useful and informative?
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by TeMPOraL on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @04:14AM (#29010737)
It doesn't. The comparison is useful and informative - in pointing out ways in which Bitcoin doesn't, and can't ever, deliver on its promise. At best, if it were ever integrated into serious economy, it would just present an extra layer of indirection and complexity in a system working the same way otherwise.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by gitrog on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @03:50AM (#29010604)
Traditional currencies aren't advertised as being decentralised.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by worrycue on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @06:03AM (#29011258)
The Central bank controls the currency, having a monopoly on creation of said currency, and that’s by design.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by fhe on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @04:11AM (#29010714)
banks don't own the deposits. in fact, deposits are liabilities on their balance sheets.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by erispoe on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @04:44AM (#29010865)
Fiat currency is a state monopoly. That's how it's designed to work.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by agos on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @08:56AM (#29012700)
a company is very different from a currency, unless you are talking about Tether (the cryptocurrency) and Tether Limited (the company)
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by wcoenen on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @03:09AM (#29010376)
According to [1], Elon held just shy of 23% of Tesla at the end of 2020. See table with "% ownership" column at the bottom of the page.

[1] https://whalewisdom.com/stock/tsla

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by chrischen on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @04:08AM (#29010696)
It eventually will only merely represent existing income inequality already present in society. However, it's still in the interest of those minority few who control bitcoin not to sabotage its value.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by ThaJay on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @05:51AM (#29011196)
There will be (and is) some movement, but it's mostly around the middle class. Up and down.

Poor people can't get in and fat cats dominate so the more you zoom out the more you're right.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by rullelito on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @03:28AM (#29010490)
Bitcoin is not a company.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by adflux on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @09:31AM (#29013052)
Bad comparison. Better to compare us dollar and suggest someone would own 15% of all usd in circulatiln
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by delaaxe on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @02:45AM (#29010251)
I'm sure Elon holds more than 17%?
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by halfdan on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @02:56AM (#29010297)
He holds 16.98% to be precise.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by SergeAx on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @05:16AM (#29011037)
Do you mean Elon Musk? Because data available for me says that top shareholders are Vanguard and Blackrock funds with ~6% and ~5%.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by skinnymuch on Thursday October 28, 2021 @11:19PM (#29034796)
That’s probably a list of institutional funds only
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by garmaine on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @07:35AM (#29011819)
> I haven't read the methods yet, but the idea that the authors were able to do this analysis is fascinating.

Their work is nonsense. They assume address=single investor, which is not the case. That large address that has hundreds of thousands of bitcoin on it? It could be a whale, sure. It could also be Bitfinex's cold storage wallet representing tens of thousands of individual investors.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by hammock on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @09:20AM (#29012935)
>"We first document that 90% of transaction volume on the Bitcoin blockchain is not tied to economically meaningful activities but is the byproduct of the Bitcoin protocol design as well as the preference of many participants for anonymity."

What do you think a similar metric would look like for the US dollar, when you consider the $600 trillion-plus derivatives markets?

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by rory on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @09:29AM (#29013039)
The notional value of all derivatives ($600T+, maybe, we think) is MUCH MUCH higher than the dollar amount actually transacted in the derivatives market. So kind of comparing apples to oranges there.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by leonardp on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @02:57AM (#29010309)
There is a foundational theoretical text in materialist philosophy that predicts exactly this happening. It was written in 1867. When reading articles like this I sometimes feel like the only thing we can learn from history is that we do not learn from history.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by zadler on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @03:33AM (#29010510)
Das Kapital?
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by ThaJay on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @05:54AM (#29011214)
I think it's a bit more complicated. We just arrived a little while ago in late-stage capitalism (around 2007 I reckon?), so now looking forward it's either revolution or back to feudalism.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by cmrdporcupine on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @07:23AM (#29011745)
Ernest Mandel's "Late Capitalism" was published in 1975 (the year after I was born), to describe his present period.