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Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by beambot on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @03:05AM (#29010354)
How does the USD currency compare? I'd wager that the top-10 banks and the various central reserve banks own or control the vast majority of USD.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by TeMPOraL on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @03:53AM (#29010629)
If Bitcoin is comparable to USD, then there's nothing justifying its use over USD, with its associated ludicrous waste of energy and environmental impact.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by fsflover on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @05:05AM (#29010965)
The government can print USD for themselves, effectively stealing money from everyone through inflation. With bitcoin, even "small group controlling 90%" can't do that.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by FabHK on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @05:24AM (#29011072)
Sure they can. There's a line in the code halving the codebase mining reward every 210,000 blocks. Just comment that line out (or replace halving with doubling). Done.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by mateuszf on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @06:27AM (#29011382)
That would create a fork that nobody would use (because bitcoin holders are incentivised by the halving mechanism).
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by FabHK on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @08:17AM (#29012206)
> a fork that nobody would use

Except the "small group controlling 90%" of mining power that introduced that change (in the hypothetical example) would use it. And their chain would grow longer and be the canonical one (though that, of course, is also just a convention encoded in the code). And they could still spend some 20% or so of their hash power to entirely mess up the one true chain, if they so desired.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by derangedHorse on Friday October 29, 2021 @12:14AM (#29035110)
If they moved to that chain and contributed their hash power there, it wouldn't automatically make the chain they're working on the canonical one. A change in the the protocol would not ensure consensus between the 2 chains. And regardless of how much hash power they have they probably wouldn't be able to "mess up the one true chain".

The history of the bitcoin blockchain can't be changed unless a miner can contribute the same amount of work it took to generate the section of blockchain they'd wish to change (so from a historical start block to the latest block). Even then, the most they can do is undo payments and double spend coins. This would probably not be economically viable since Bitcoin clients would probably start to blacklist expenditures from the miners addresses if suspicions of a double spend attack arose. Because wallets and nodes can tell when there's forks, people would also pick up on double spends which would disqualify any and all money attempted for the double spend. Overall it would probably be cheaper to just spend coins fairly.

Also, as an aside, the protocol-valid bitcoin blockchain with the most work gets chosen, not the longest* blockchain

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by andruby on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @08:57AM (#29012711)
if the nodes don't upgrade their software to the code version with the commented line, they would reject those new blocks, regardless of it being the longest chain.

You would need to control the majority (of the important) nodes to be able to pull this off. If the nodes are incentivised to keep the limit, they will.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by fsflover on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @08:56AM (#29012699)
This group could continue using their version of the blockchain, but nobody else would accept it. New miners would appear on the original blockchain, making this group obsolete.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by fsflover on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @05:45AM (#29011166)
It would bring bitcoin price down to zero. Also, I'm not sure that miners can do that without everyone else agreeing.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by nuerow on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @06:58AM (#29011559)
> The government can print USD for themselves, effectively stealing money from everyone through inflation.

Not quite. The only people bitten by inflation in the long run are those who stockpile cash and intend to perpetually live off capital gains without contributing anything to society. Meanwhile, the vast majority, which are either salaried employees or own businesses, see both their income and expenditures adjusted to inflation.

This is in fact one of the often ignored aspects of inflation, as well as taxes: a way to mitigate or avoid concentrations of wealth detrimental to society.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by fsflover on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @07:57AM (#29012013)
> The only people bitten by inflation in the long run are those who stockpile cash and intend to perpetually live off capital gains without contributing anything to society.

This is completely missing the point. People with big amounts of cash never keep it, they invest in something to avoid inflation. The only people who suffer are poor people who happen to have a small amount of USD saved for a rainy day.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by argentinian on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @08:00AM (#29012047)
> This is in fact one of the often ignored aspects of inflation, as well as taxes: a way to mitigate or avoid concentrations of wealth detrimental to society.

As somebody living in Argentina, a country with usual double digit inflation, your argument is complete bullshit.

Here the wealthy are not affected by inflation: they can save in real state, strong currencies, shares... And the same rich families stay rich for generations. We also have very high taxes.

Inflation harms the poor more than the rich. Try living in Argentina for some years and you will learn.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by nuerow on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @08:12AM (#29012149)
> As somebody living in Argentina, a country with usual double digit inflation, your argument is complete bullshit.

The only bullshit I spot is this idea to use Argentina, or Zimbabwe or Venezuela, as the posterchild of responsible monetary and economic policies, when they are actually the result of gross and perpetual mismanagement.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-argentina-faces-an-economic...

Meanwhile most of the world reaps the benefits of sane and responsible monetary policies, and thus is free from hyperinflation, and somehow that's supposed to mean nothing? Only your cherry-picked appeals to emotion matter?

Even the European Union, which has been subjected to quantitative easing policies from around a whole decade and thus has been seeing their central banks print money like crazy, at most only complains about low inflation and mild economic stagnation.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by ephbit on Thursday October 28, 2021 @06:43AM (#29024436)
> Even the European Union, which has been subjected to quantitative easing policies from around a whole decade and thus has been seeing their central banks print money like crazy, at most only complains about low inflation and mild economic stagnation.

The part with print money like crazy is absolutely true. The claim that there's low inflation in Europe, is absolutely false. Official inflation numbers are relatively low only because real estate and other things are arbitrarily excluded from cpi. It's always astounding to me how people can pretend as if rising real estate prices did somehow not trickle down to rents and thus effectively all everyday purchases, people make.

The world is full of zero-sum games whose existence people often deny ... just because many of them are long and complex and interconnected chains of interactions which means they are lots of work to describe accurately doesn't mean they're not there.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by argentinian on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @08:17AM (#29012210)
I agree, the inflation here is the effect of the perpetual and gross mismanagement.

What about your idea regarding inflation as a way to avoid concentrations of wealth? (the idea I quoted and I replied to). That one is unsustainable.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by bart_spoon on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @12:52PM (#29015839)
There is a distinction between inflation and hyperinflation. An analogy would be someone saying that a modest reduction in caloric intake is healthy for most people, and you responding that it isn't, anorexics die without enough calories.

When inflation is present, but less than 3%, there isn't an incentive to hoard it, because simply sticking it in a bank account means it will be slightly less valuable a year from now than it is today. For poor people, who are spending most of their money on necessities, it won't mean much (unless their employers don't match incomes with inflation, which IS a problem). But for rich people, it offers a powerful incentive to spend today, or to invest their money with hopes that the returns will offset the inflation. A rich person's money flowing through the economy, be it through exchange for goods, or through investment, is far more valuable to society than it is sitting under their mattress.

Debts are also easier to pay off. With inflation, your debt of $X is easier to pay off in the future than it is today. Poor people struggle to pay off debt more than rich people, and governments are more likely to rack up debts to pay for public works and infrastructure, knowing the bill will be easier to pay down the line with inflation.

Compare that to deflation. With deflation, your money gets more valuable over time, not because you invested it in something useful, but simply because it exists. Now if you are rich, why do anything at all with your money other than stick it under a mattress? Why spend it, or take the risks that come with investment, when you are guaranteed it will be worth more than you have now in the future? Poor people don't have this luxury. They have to spend money on their needs today, which means they are missing out on even more value tomorrow.

Deflation is just as toxic to the economy, and especially poor people, as hyperinflation.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by ephbit on Thursday October 28, 2021 @07:49AM (#29024928)
> For poor people, who are spending most of their money on necessities, it won't mean much (unless their employers don't match incomes with inflation, which IS a problem). But for rich people, it offers a powerful incentive to spend today, or to invest their money with hopes that the returns will offset the inflation.

The way I see this, there's a fallacy there.

The claim, that inflation won't matter much for poor people is wrong. Even if their employers compensate for inflation with accordingly increased salary (which they don't always do) then there's still the fact that poor people are treading their treadmill, unable to advance one bit. In the best case they stay right where they are (relative to others).

Rich people on the other hand have the "burden" of sitting on assets that do not suffer inflation. And any excess money they earn which they don't need to spend on everyday items, they can put into investments that again do not lose value like cash does (under inflationary circumstances).

Quite simple: rich people have opportunities to invest and earn profits, letting them improve their position relative to poor people even further. Poor people don't have these opportunities and they even have to constantly fight for compensation of inflation while having shorter levers to push everywhere in society.

If rich people weren't urged to invest money they have sitting around (by threat of inflation), they'd maybe just hoard bigger proportions of it and sometimes spend some, instead of using it to acquire ever increasing proportions of assets from poorer people who have to sell. I'd say inflation almost directly causes wealth concentration.

In this way, inflation does indeed mean much for poor people. No, it's not totally obvious, kind of counterintuitive even. But it's true.

The current development is like a continuously happending race along a path of steadily increasing availability of pleasant goods and opportunities ... where the rich are moving significantly faster along the path than the poor. Yes, the poor do advance, but the lead of the rich continually grows larger. Since wealth is psychologically very much a relative thing, this is bad, even if the absolute wealth of the poor is indeed increasing over time.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by argentinian on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @02:17PM (#29016959)
see answer to brother comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29013635

mainly the referenced links

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by nuerow on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @09:53AM (#29013281)
> What about your idea regarding inflation as a way to avoid concentrations of wealth? (the idea I quoted and I replied to). That one is unsustainable.

You're free to discuss the facts I've pointed out, instead of going off on a tangent with a non-sequitur regarding Argentina's hyperinflation. It's undeniable that stockpiling cash out of the economy has a deeply negative social, economic, and even fiscal impact on a nation. Inflation provides an incentive to actually put the money to use, and interest rates for the most conservative investments, like risk-free bonds, are then used to provide incentives to couple investments with economic cycles.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by argentinian on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @10:22AM (#29013635)
You said that inflation and taxes are a way to mitigate or avoid concentrations of wealth.

As a counterargument I said that rich people don't save in cash and that inflation damages the poor more than the rich, the world bank has evidence for that: https://openknowledge.worldbank.org/bitstream/handle/10986/1...

> Inflation provides an incentive to actually put the money to use,

Inflation provides an incentive to get rid of the money that loses its value over time and instead change it for something else. This not only affects the rich, but also the poor. An effect is that it becomes more difficult for the poor to save and invest. The rich can handle inflation much better than the poor.

I found another article that arguments about this https://mises.org/library/whats-so-scary-about-deflation

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by fsflover on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @08:22AM (#29012249)
And you are sure that the US government will never, ever mismanage anything?
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by nuerow on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @09:42AM (#29013177)
> And you are sure that the US government will never, ever mismanage anything?

The US, unlike Argentina, hasn't spent over a decade experiencing with a >10% inflation rate, and half a decade at >25%.

Most of the world hasn't.

Until it does, any comparison with Argentina, or any country experiencing years of hyperinflation as a result of gross mismanagement, is overwhelmingly positive.

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by bart_spoon on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @12:32PM (#29015531)
They are speaking of modest inflation, the 1-3% mentioned above. Obviously hyperinflation is bad. But deflation will also harm the poor just as much, while the rich are the sole benefactors.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by christophilus on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @07:12AM (#29011663)
AKA stealing from the elderly to fund today’s excesses.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by nuerow on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @07:42AM (#29011891)
> * AKA stealing from the elderly to fund today’s excesses.*

I appreciate a good appeal to pity, but unfortunately you got it completely wrong. Even though pension funds use investments to complement their investment pool, they are primarily funded through contributions from the employer and existing members as an income redistribution scheme[1].

[1] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/pensionplan.asp

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by littlestymaar on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @04:09PM (#29018479)
Ever heard of things like Bitcoin cash or Bitcoin gold? Everybody owning BTC before the fork then owned an additional bitcoin ersatz, and these “fake bitcoin” are now worth a few billions.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by worrycue on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @06:05AM (#29011271)
They can but generally they don’t allow inflation to exceed 3% - ideally keeping it with 1-3% - as the destruction of the currency is not worth it long term.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by fsflover on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @06:44AM (#29011485)
So with USD, you trust that people care about long term consequences over short-term profit? With bitcoin, you trust math.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by bart_spoon on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @12:30PM (#29015510)
With Bitcoin, the math says that deflationary currencies are destined for failure.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by FabHK on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @08:18AM (#29012221)
> With bitcoin, you trust math.

No, you trust the 50 miners that control the majority of the hash power not to mess with the code that embodies your math (or doesn't, as the case may be).

Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by fsflover on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @08:56AM (#29012707)
No, you trust the majority of people running the code, not just miners: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29012699.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by FabHK on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @09:25AM (#29012993)
What if the majority of people running nodes disagrees with the majority of hash power holders? Running a node is cheap.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by neuroma on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @04:06AM (#29010691)
While I'm sure you're correct, does that make the comparison any less useful and informative?
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by TeMPOraL on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @04:14AM (#29010737)
It doesn't. The comparison is useful and informative - in pointing out ways in which Bitcoin doesn't, and can't ever, deliver on its promise. At best, if it were ever integrated into serious economy, it would just present an extra layer of indirection and complexity in a system working the same way otherwise.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by gitrog on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @03:50AM (#29010604)
Traditional currencies aren't advertised as being decentralised.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by worrycue on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @06:03AM (#29011258)
The Central bank controls the currency, having a monopoly on creation of said currency, and that’s by design.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by fhe on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @04:11AM (#29010714)
banks don't own the deposits. in fact, deposits are liabilities on their balance sheets.
Re:Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investo... by erispoe on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @04:44AM (#29010865)
Fiat currency is a state monopoly. That's how it's designed to work.