>> A&W failed with the third-pounder because they had bad marketing and because they failed to understand the marketplace to achieve product-market fit,

Right.

>> not because Americans are too dumb to understand fractions.

Wrong. They did research and found that to be a significant factor.

I'm sure there's /some people/ who don't understand fractions, but the vast majority of people I've met understand fractions and use them in their daily life...

That's what I thought years ago when I first heard about this, but you might need to get out into other parts of the world. I see at least 2 kinds of people who will make the mistake 1) People with no math ability (these really do exist) and 2) People who could easily see the difference if they thought about it even a little bit, but 3 vs 4 is smaller at first glance and they never bothered to "think" about it. There are a lot of the second kind of people too. Advertising doesn't usually need people to think, in fact they usually don't want you to do that.

If you're an engineer, this will surprise you. but, the vast majority of people don't know how to normalize data or even why you'd do it in the first place. cost of a burger of 1/3 lbs vs cost of a burger over 1/4 lbs, ( i don't mean to sound insulting) but the fact is: that's waaayyyy to much thinking for most people (it just doesn't come naturally for people to think like that). Personally, I normalize nuritional data on a per 2000 calorie basis. I've even had a doctor question this, until I explained the concept of normalization. It's just not how non engineers/ non scientists are accustomed to thinking.

In many places nutritional data is required to be normalized to 100g. In the US it's "per-serving" which is super subjective and makes everything complicated to compare.

I will say though that I prefer the way you normalize fuel consumption, as distance per units of fuel (miles per gallon), compared to our way of fuel volume per 100 distance units (liters per 100km).

It's been my observation that most of the time most people simply don't think.

I'm not super smart (nor do I in anyway claim to be) but people often consider me to be smart when really it's all down to two things, I think about things other people don't consider and I have endless curiosity about almost everything, I'm an eternal 5 year old constantly asking why.

It requires a certain level of self-confidence to publicly ask "why". Many people are afraid of looking stupid and don't ask for clarifications.

The problem with comparing 1/3 to 1/4 is that it’s not immediately apparent how much more. I have to do fraction math to figure out how much more and really 1/12th more isn’t exactly meaningful. All of that has to happen in the consciousness brain so it’s not effective marketing

But it's not a 1/12th more, it's 1/3 more. 1/3 is 33% more than 1/4.

Even HN people struggle with fractions evidently!

A&W should have just called it the "Quarter-plus pounder".

It's a 1/12th of a pound more.

"1/3 to 1/4 is [...] how much more", as is, is ambiguous: on some cultures, "how much more" may depend on the local field of reference (1/3), and on others on the global one (1)

That conclusion requires fraction devision which most folks can’t do in their head. The HN crowd can but it still takes some thought

Or convert it to whatever unit is under lbs to make it even more impressive. ("oz"?)

From the article: "More than half of the participants in the Yankelovich focus groups questioned the price of our burger."

They "did research" which found that a handful of people didn't understand fractions, in an unusual group social setting which can easily amplify oddball beliefs if other participants aren't 100% confident.

You can do general polling of a question like this, which will give you actual serious data about whether Americans understand fractions.

A similar thing to 2) is probably the reason seemingly every product is priced $x.99. Everyone is probably aware that's basically the same as $(x + 1).00 but when you're on auto-pilot maybe you still feel like the former is a meaningfully better deal. I mean, it must work given how common the practice is.

I sometimes go to A&W in Toronto Canada, and here I would say its the opposite - A&W is generally pretty reliable and consistent in quality across its locations whereas Mcdonalds can vary quite a bit based on time and location.

Poeple's attachment to certain restaurants is deeper than seeking out the best deal or best taste. Generally I consider an A&W burger superior to Mcdonalds, just as I would consider many boutique burger places superior to mickey ds. Yet the latter has a place in my heart that is really pretty irrational

A&W Canada has been unrelated to A&W in the US since the 70s, and seems to be the more successful of the two by far.

Its worth noting that the reason this happened is because management bought out the company from Unilever. They were able to switch to a long term vision, then transformed and succeeded.

Just goes to show that the boardroom can absolutely hobble a good management team.

Yes, as an American when I was driving across Alberta I was absolutely astounded by how many A&Ws there were and how nice they seemed. At least in my corner of the US, A&W has a thorough reputation as a cheap, lame has-been that's usually tandemed with other failed fast food brands. The only one I know of in the state regularly garners comments that "wow, that still exists?" when driving by.

In Canada, on the other hand, it seems to be a major and well-liked brand... As much as I found the slogan "American food" very funny given their reputation here.

A n W is the most popular well liked fast food in my friend group, and imho the best quality chain in Canada.

There used to be a A&W in my home town that finally closed in 2017. For awhile durning some kind of ownership tranfer the franchisees were mostly left high and dry and that place became the best 'fast food' burger in town. I think I remember that the franchise owner basically started buying everything from other suppliers and was only buying a few things from upstream A&W (notably root beer). He pivoted his burgers to compete on quality with the other fast food in town, i think that all went to shit a couple of years later presumably when he either sold or got smacked down the the franchise. Either way it's kind of one of those 'zombie brands' now .. slowly succumbing to economics.

Piling up on the Canadians who like A&W thread. It’s our go-to fast food chain, burgers are of decent quality, their vegetarian option is reasonably good, and the root beer is delicious.

I totally agree. The A&W burger in Canada is superior to other fast-food chains hands down. It seems to be A&W in name only.

I am no longer customer of fast food chain (mostly BBQ at home) but many years ago when I used to I very much preferred Harvey's to anything else.

A&W Canada has been downright impressive in being consistently good. Around the level of south-asian owned popeyes franchises. Whatever culture they have behind the scenes, I hope franchises restaurants follow.

"Mismanaged franchise declines" doesn't get smug upvotes, cheap comments, shares and general engagement/popularity among the HN and Reddit demographics the way portraying fast food eating Americans as dumb does.

Every human (and many non-humans, though they may have more difficulty expressing it) who's had to divide things by three and four knows that knows that a third is more than a quarter. People know in the back of their minds that other people know this. But the dumb lizard brain takes over and they can't help but engage with low effort content that is spun in a way that confirms their biases.

Everyone knows that a 1/3 lb burger is larger than a quarter pounder, but unsure why the author never thought the reason people objected to the 1/3lb burger was due to its way too much meat to have for a burger, usually fast food is eaten during lunch and people don't want to have a gigantic lunch that will make them groggy during the 2nd half of the day.

This is supported by the success of the fast-casual chain Fuddruckers which also served 1/3 pound burgers. Their restaurants are configured for large groups. It's the sort of place you take the whole family out to dinner. I don't think anyone was confused by the menu options when they went there.

They also served half pound burgers, at one time anyway.

I'm not sure if the average American would actually have difficulty eating that anymore

For what it’s worth i’ve personally had a few disagreements with people who wouldn’t believe a third was bigger than a fourth.

Choose your battles wisely.

I have. Here in Canada I'm pretty sure A&W is still growing and doing well. It's very different from the US version from what I've heard. It's one of the better fast food chains IMO, especially of the larger ones. Definitely have the best onion rings.

Canadian a&w is a totally different beast from the American franchise, related in name only, and my favorite fast food by a long way.

A&W Canada is a different company entirely https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A%26W_(Canada)

Not the person you're replying to, just a similarly perplexed Canadian. They're the only fast food joint I go to here in Canada when I'm not traveling (and, really, other than traveling that's maybe 5 to 10 times a year) but their quality here is quite high for the category and price.

I've found that Toronto has a bigger appetite (pun not intended) for higher quality "fast food". Quiznos and craft burger joints also come to mind.

> McDonald's understands that not everyone will like McDonald's but that almost nobody finds it outright objectionable and many people love it. As long as they keep doing the same thing in every single store or franchise across the country, McDonald's is always a safe choice for stopping into the drive-thru due to that consistency.

This is the same approach taken by mass-market U.S. beers. The WSJ had an article about this in 2006:

Sitting in the wood-paneled "corporate tasting room" of Anheuser-Busch Cos.' headquarters here, August Busch III surveyed five recently thawed cans of Budweiser beer, representing a quarter of a century of beer history. In the early 1980s, the Anheuser chairman ordered that freshly brewed cans of Budweiser and Bud Light be cryogenically frozen, using technology typically employed in preserving human tissue.

"We wanted to make damn sure we would have the same beer 20 years down the road," said Mr. Busch, 68 years old ... For decades, Anheuser's aim was to develop a beer that would sell across America, one inoffensive enough to appeal to the nation's varied palate.

The article also noted that the references copies showed a gradual decline in hoppiness over the years to make the flavor more middle of the road and inoffensive ... but niche brewers were rising up and about to eat AB's lunch.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB114601602889736048

> The store wasn't clean, the food was overly greasy but not in a good way, and they didn't properly season the fries.

When they expanded the "new concept" in Texas, guessing 90s-00s, they were often coupled together with a Long John Silvers and they obviously shared the same fryer because I could taste seafood with the fries. If I order fried seafood that's fine I suppose, but not when I'm ordering a burger and fries for a meal from A&W which has no seafood (AFAIK). I think I tried it twice in total and swore it off. All to say, when it comes to consistency, they weren't even trying.

I'm very sensitive to any seafood taste as well, and If I ever detect it in something that's not seafood, I'll just instantly throw the meal away. I'll make an exception for caesar dressing.

I like seafood too, just not in my onion rings.

Yeah, I've found A&W to be all over the board in terms of quality.

Also, nothing beats whataburger :D. IDK why it's confined to the southern states.

As a Texan I'm obligated to concur on whataburger however if I'm being truthful their consistency is all over the map too. I'm pretty sure it's a result of store level execution and management. Oddly enough, I find the best ones are those located in pit stop towns between the major cities. They get enough traffic to stay fresh, they probably have low turnover, and the manager might be making a career of it. That how I rationalize it anyhow.

It's been spreading just a bit. There are now Whataburger locations in Phoenix, AZ.

I'm in Northern California, and Phoenix is also our closest Waffle House too.

Whataburger was recently purchased by a Chicago-based private equity firm so you may get your wish for an expansion.

FWIW Shipley Donuts recently got bought by PE too. I talked to them as a then potential franchisee and they have pretty big growth plans. If you're curious, it wasn't right fit for me now that PE is involved. I was interested as a casual absentee owner, but their growth plan doesn't really have much room for that anymore.

The last time I was in an A&W was most of a decade ago. All I wanted was a root beer.

They were out.

Of A&W root beer.

I haven’t been back.

Well yeah, it's the thing in their name and therefore must be the most popular item.

Honestly, the store is really rundown and I almost never see anyone at it. I’m amazed they were out of anything.

I went into a place known for smoothies/slushes a few months ago. They were out of the frozen yogurt they use in something like half of them. And then tried to sub with almond milk or something.

Some places just can't manage stocking properly, I guess.

There was a sub sandwich place near the University I went to. Went in one day and was told they were out of bread. I figured that meant they were really in trouble, probably fell behind on paying for supplies.

If almost no one ever comes to your restaurant, I imagine it’s pretty hard to hire/pay to hire a good manager who would prevent something like that from happening.

This is especially true overseas. I call McDonald's "American Embassies." When I'm traveling and stressed, tired, hungry and definitely not in the mood for an adventure, I can count on McDonald's to have a menu I can order off, whether I know the language or not, for the food to be satisfying and safe, for the prices to be predictable, for the restaurant to be clean and for the bathrooms to have toilet paper.

The same holds for the large brewing companies. I toured the Budweiser plant in Ft. Collins once, one of the things they were very proud of is the fact that no matter where or when you buy a Budweiser it tastes like a Budweiser. It's no small accomplishment, i can taste the differences between batches with the small brewery stuff i like.

You are so right about AB's consistency. I home-brew and am a certified cicerone. One of the absolutely hardest things to do in brewing is having consistency from batch to batch. One of the things that AB has been able to do to help here is develop innovative food chemistry processes to test ingredients prior to use and a chemical understanding of all the flavor compounds in their product so they can blend different brew batches together prior to packaging to achieve the same ratios of flavoring compounds. Both of which are processes largely unavailable to smaller breweries and home brewers.

Consistency in your product is crucial in the food and beverage industry, because a buyer needs to know what they're getting. If you've already successfully sold them on your product, the repeat sale is only going to happen if they can be assured they're going to get the same thing they liked the first time. Nobody in the industry understands the importance of consistency better than Anheuser-Busch. McDonald's is right there with them on understanding this. Food and beverages are products like anything else, and just like with any product, once you achieve product-market fit, it's important not to make changes that would eliminate or chip away at the fit you have with your customer base.

There's the apocryphal[1] story about the (Trappist? Belgian?) brewer-monk who, when asked about his favorite beer, answered "Budweiser" because of the consistency over millions of gallons.

The linked[1] article below also highlights that "quality light beers are incredibly difficult to brew". So here you have Budweiser/AB excelling on two fronts: a difficult brew and incredible consistency.

[1] https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/11/light-bee...

I'm reminded of the (perhaps apocryphal) story of how starbucks overroasts its coffee beans to achieve a consistent taste despite having multiple sources for beans (necessary due to its scale). the implication being that they sacrifice the average quality of the finished product to reduce variance.

is there a similar tradeoff in brewing? I do notice fairly obvious differences batch-to-batch in microbrews, but I would still prefer the worst batches of my favorite local beers to any AB product I can think of. are they trading away best/average taste for consistency, or is it more a function of the price point (microbrews being quite a bit more expensive)?

From what I've seen, the brewers at AB are world-class, and they have a very specific and longstanding flavor profile they target. I happen to also not be a fan of Budweiser, but it's been the same for decades and has a very loyal following. They are not brewing to a price point, they spend more on process and verification than any microbrewery to ensure that consistency, although they have introduced the use of adjunct brewing (rice) to make the materials cost fit their price point, and they were able to do it without changing the resulting product taste.

> I'm reminded of the (perhaps apocryphal) story of how starbucks overroasts its coffee beans to achieve a consistent taste despite having multiple sources for beans (necessary due to its scale). the implication being that they sacrifice the average quality of the finished product to reduce variance.

The version I'd heard was people associate the ashy taste and dark roast with higher caffeine, even though it's the opposite.

Yeah that's true, the Starbucks "house" beans they use in their stores are nearly soot, and the coffee tastes like it.

Yeah this is similar to the "Dominoes taking off with new tech" articles where they cite growth and some changes.

Really though Dominoes changed their recipe a and it doesn't taste like garbage anymore and folks noticed.

I have had similar experiences with A&W franchises being inconsistent / dirty stores, etc.

> Wendy's is superior to McDonald's for a nationwide chain in quality, but the consistency is more variable, so McDonald's rules.

Wendy's sandwiches here are 2x-3x higher than McD's. Some folks don't expect it - they read the Wendy's menu & then drive next door to McD's.

I'm dubious of the claim that there were enough Americans who don't understand fractions to cause the product to fail. There are a huge number of reasons why a product sells poorly. It may be too expensive. It may not be the right product (too big for lunch). The place where it is being sold may have other issues.

I've only been to an A&W a couple of times, and in both cases the food was notably subpar--it seemed like something I might find in a school cafeteria, the service was slow, and the ambiance was dingy. I also don't like root beer that much so the restaurant has little draw for me. I'm more surprised that they were able to sell enough to stay in business at all. Customer confusion over the size of the 1/3 pounder is the least of their problems.

A&W was always a combo stores with Long John Silver's here.

Fried fish with malt vinegar, fried cheese curds, frosty mug of root beer - meal of champions

I think they had one of those in Tomah, Wisconsin. Closed unfortunately.

There is room for variation in consistency. Like McDonald's abroad is not the same in every country. The menu in India is primarily chicken-based. Muslim countries don't even carry a bacon option. The order of importance also varies by region. McDonald's in France has consistently been the best fast food I've ever had. Me and my 20-something coworkers would regularly go while older, upper-management would make fun of us and head over to pricier brasseries for lunch. The complained about the service while we were in and out in 10mins.

Burger King left France as an abject failure 20 years and re-arrived a few years. What changed? Different marketing and leadership. Trying less to be an American company abroad and more of French fast food company that happens to be American.

I wouldn't necessarily call that variation in consistency, but it's interesting you bring up the regional variations at McDonald's (Pizza Hut is one that has some /very/ interesting regional variations as well). This is something that can actually be jarring to Americans when they travel abroad, so much so that it's become something of a meme in travel communities for first-time travelers.

I think it's important to understand that it's pretty rare for a business to fail in its home market and succeed elsewhere, so winning in the home market first is important. A&W's home market and McDonald's home market is the US, and in the US McDonald's is /extremely/ consistent nationwide. It's probably the most consistent restaurant in any category.

> it's pretty rare for a business to fail in its home market and succeed elsewhere

Rare is correct. It does happen. Packard Bell, for example, an American brand that fell apart in the US was doing significantly well.

> Muslim countries don't even carry a bacon option.

That’s … minor.

I ate at a McDonalds in Marrakech (Morocco), and language and minor local menu variations aside, the food and experience was as close to quintessential as any McDonalds I’ve visited in the elsewhere in the world — including, of course, the US.

> almost nobody finds it outright objectionable

Correction: .. among people that are into eating junk food

I can assure you there are many many people that would not touch Mickey-D, nor Wendy's, nor Burger King.

That's actually very witty. I do realise though that eating good quality food is not a choice that everyone is free make in the US. Not when a decent carrot costs the same as a cheeseburger down the road [1]

[1] https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20180222-how-can-a-fast...

If they cut up the Big Mac into bite sized mini burgers skewered by a long toothpick I bet many would be fooled.

I'm pretty sure I saw that video about a decade ago...

Maybe https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2MltCiKcgP8

The burgers aren't really much different from what most people would make at home. It's decent quality beef on a white-bread bun.

The fries and the sugary drinks are the real junk.

I guess I'm not most people. But if I grill a burger, it's thicker and juicier, is on a better bun of some sort, and I actually like it. Not that I've eaten one in years but fast food burgers are pretty awful in my opinion generally. (The higher end fast casual places, on the other hand, I quite like now and then--usually when traveling.)

They are, because they have to be cooked to death to reduce any chance of food-bourne pathogens. If you took a McDonald's quarter pounder beef patty and cooked or grilled it at home to medium doneness it would be as good as the same thing made with supermarket ground beef.

I worked the grill at McDonalds for a while (admittedly two decades ago) and I disagree. They were frozen when retrieved for cooking and I just don't think those frozen pucks compare to fresher ground chuck hamburgers that occasionally I buy at the grocers.

McD switched to fresh beef for the quarter pounders in 2018.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/13/business/mcdonalds-marion-gro...

I've never seen anyone make a 1/10th pound burger patty at home.

I know a guy who hates McDonalds and Burger King, but loves Wendy's. There's no universal rule that applies to everybody.

Good for you.

Personal anecdote: I've only gotten food poisoning from a restaurant once in my life, and it was an A&W in the early 2000's.

100% agree, people do not factor in consistency when it comes to fast food, McDonald's is the king of consistency its why they have expanded so fast around the world, also they are a clean restaurant. My expectation in 20 years is mcdonald's to own the burger chain experience globally, I expect Carls Jr.(hardees) Wendys, and A&W to not be around by then.

I don't think A&W gets thought of the way McDonald's or In n Out or other chains do. It just doesn't have the mindshare.

But the McDonald's where I live are all disasters, and the one A&W we had (until recently, when it got replaced by a new VW dealership) was really nice, with table service and frosty mugs.

Most of the mcdonald's experience is pretty consistent - but they need to figure out the bun situation. All too often I get a burger with a nasty, stale bun and it's just gross.

Usually when I'm getting drive-through on a road trip so I can't even go back and complain about it.

There has not been an A&W where I live in decades.

This rings true to me. I used to live next to an A&W-- I went there exactly once, absolutely hated it and never went back.

The A&W in Albany, MN was well kept last time I was there. Not a bad place to stop on a trip down I94.

Why didn't they say "5 ounces"?

And then "McD is 4, ours is 5"!

completely different experience in canada.

all the A&W restaurants are clean and courteous, amazed at the employees commitment at a probably min wage job.

1)you are greeted at the door as you enter, open the door as you come and go for you.

2)if you are eating indoors, they will bring the food to you like a sit down restaurant (just you paying up front).

3)they come by and ask about refills, or ordering any other items

4)come by and offer treats.

5)all the food is made to order.

6)the quality is good, hormone free quality beef.

my understanding canadian AW is operated by a diff company than US AW, so maybe different policies and practices

What a strange, meandering comment. I'm not really sure what your thesis is. You seem to disagree with the article but the only real rebuttal you offer is "I know people, and everyone is good with fractions," which is more a comment on your interaction bubble than on the American populace.

Everything else is just a comment on A&W in the last decade or two and holds no bearing on the quarter/third pounder topic. The war was won even before your hierarchy of what's important could be standardized over large geographic areas, which is really unclear to me how much it matters/is accurate. feels like conjecture. I could postulate what I think is important to the American consumer, but, again, conjecture.