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Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by spyckie2 on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @06:38PM (#28055095)
The value of work is not in the work done; it's in the decisions being made. It's the ability to handle edge cases, to work your way through ambiguity, to "unstuck" a stuck situation, and to resolve tricky unforeseen issues.

If you build a robot that only handles the main workflow and can't handle any of the exceptions, you're not automating anything; you're building a convenience tool. Basically, you're removing some of the labor part of the job, but still keeping the decision making part of the job for humans.

This is both economically unviable and largely unpopular. You're not reducing labor costs by much, because you still need humans around. And workers lose control over their job, and have to "work around" the robot's limitations. Instead of being freed up to do more work, they become babysitters of machines that they have to oversee so it doesn't mess up everything.

This is why partial robotic systems don't really exist; either it's a nifty tool that speeds up a small repeatable process of your work, or it's building the entire house.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by LeifCarrotson on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @10:07AM (#28061163)
I build robotic cells, specifically industrial manufacturing automation. They are definitely designed for the main workflow; they handle the most common exceptions gracefully but when something rare happens they just throw a fault back to the operator.

The response from users (operators, engineers, customers) is overwhelmingly positive. Quality of parts increases, quantity of parts increases, cost of operations decrease, quality of life seems to increase for all involved. My mantra is "People are bad at being robots. Robots are bad at being people."

Just yesterday, I worked on a cell that's automated the placing of small seals in a plastic assembly. For the past 8 years, for 12 shifts per week, there's been a person sitting at a dial table that indexes every 2.5 seconds. They were responsible for placing a tiny part in a magazine with a buffer of about 20 parts, a really fast operator could work ahead and have 30 seconds to stand up and shake their wrists out or take a drink, and then sit back down to place parts. Now, a robot pours the seals out and picks them up automatically; there's still an operator around monitoring stuff like the amount of talc powder on the seals, the quantity of parts in all the hoppers, running pressure tests every couple thousand parts, adjusting speeds and pressures of the multitude of actuators, and generally optimizing the cell. They can use their human analytical and decision-making work because they're not tied down clumsily using their fingers to grab a seal every 2.5 seconds; the robot does that mechanical function without complaint. The robot cannot refill hoppers, it cannot sense when new parts are contaminated with moisture that won't feed through the machine, or when a nipper is getting dull; outfitting it with sensors and algorithms to attempt those more complex processes would not be a productive endeavor.

People use tools because tools are useful. Scope and adjustability are critical; when a tool takes over the entire process and gets in the way, that's a bad thing, but a good tool is far better than no tool at all.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by spyckie2 on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @02:53PM (#28064751)
I didn't expect this comment to get this much discussion, I should have been clearer.

In the context of automation, the "robotic revolution" has already happened between the 4 industrial revolutions - basically, robots exist en masse already, we just don't call them robots. The majority of manufacturing and processing is already hyper optimized to only needing a few overseers to make sure the machines are running smoothly.

When talking about the automation revolution, I think it's important to make the distinction between robotic tooling and autonomous robotic systems, even though they evolve from each other. The difference is when humans interface and at what abstraction humans can operate it on. Generally, tooling is constrained to an individual's output. Robotic augmentation is in it's own category as well (human activities being enhanced by machinery).

Tooling is extremely useful, still has a lot of future potential and I don't mean to undermine work on new tooling. Just - usually when we look at robots, especially with the buzz around deep learning, we set the bar for problem solving at the level of autonomous construction because we assume, sometimes incorrectly, that optimizing our current tooling yields little efficiency benefits relative to the former.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by megameter on Friday August 06, 2021 @10:23AM (#28087528)
An example I know of that resembles the bricklayer problem is synthesis of human singing vocals into MIDI sequence data. There is now a history of products around that check off the boxes - one (Vochlea Dubler) debuted just last year - and every time, it demos well but the potential audience ends up rejecting it, because it does not really add what they thought it would add to their workflow. Even if the results themselves come out usable(already a wicked problem since the DSP has to deal with a multitude of recording scenarios while achieving low latency), users discover that they need to be talented at "singing like an instrument" if they want to play instruments by singing, which is a technical barrier, not an assistance to spontaneous creation. Practically speaking, they're better served creatively by button input tools that work top-down(e.g. pick a scale, then the keyboard only plays notes within that scale) since those define down the medium and therefore perform a creatively assistive function with a legible design paradigm(different scale = different sound).
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by octokatt on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @07:18PM (#28055460)
I’d add to the list of why partial automation isn’t worth it: it’s more satisfying to build a brick wall than babysit a bricklaying machine.

Doing the physical labor is difficult. My father was a bricklayer from ten to fifty, when he finally had to stop working. But he loved showing me the buildings he built. He helped build city government buildings, schools, libraries. The pride he felt, that he’d built something with his hands that would outlast him, kept him going.

We don’t need to solve just for the physical actions, but also for the human experience of building and the feeling of mastery. Particularly for physical trades.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by eloisius on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @01:38AM (#28057590)
My dad was a stair builder his whole career until finally becoming a freelance carpenter after getting laid off. Stairs, like bricks, are probably another implement that us techies use daily with absolutely no appreciation for complexity and skill involved. Spiral staircases are an incredible work of craftsmanship, or at least they were. I used to go to the shop with my dad when I was a kid. They would rig up these big timber structures to wrap handrails and stringers around to form the spiral. He worked out the geometry on paper (or more likely on the timber itself) writing with flat pencils that he sharpened with his pocket knife. You couldn't just mass produce the handrails either. It took time, pinned to the template, for the wood to become permanently warped into a spiral.

Years later, I ended up getting a job as a 5-axis CNC operator in the same shop. My dad thought it'd be a suitable job for me because I was good with computers, so he introduced me to the foreman in the strait stairs side of the shop. I was only cutting stair stringers, so it was basically mind-numbing data entry on some crappy Visual Basic app and then running the CNC which frequently got hung and ruined materials. The spiral staircase end of the shop was also different than from what I remembered as a kid. They still had a couple of the old-school spiral staircases in production at any given time, but those were special order. How do they churn out mass produced spiral staircases for tasteless McMansions? They glue a bunch of chunks of wood together and use a CNC to route out the negative space. Of course the grain of the wood doesn't match up like spiral constructed from one plank. The product looks like dog shit. The CNC screws up a non-negligible percent of the time resulting in tons of wasted materials. I and all the CNC operators I talked to loathed the machines we operated. They were all crappy Chinese tech, and it felt like tedious babysitting, not craftsmanship. I'd rather be swinging a hammer than do that job again.

I wonder how the finances even come out ahead. Does no one care about how their house looks? They'd rather just cargo cult an ugly McMansion that was produced at the lowest cost possible? My dad is a curmudgeon about tech in general, but it's not hard to see why. He was a master craftsman, and because "the industry" was headed in another direction, he was eventually replaced by a bunch of button pushers that can produce a low-quality simulacrum the same thing at a fraction of the cost.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by donavanm on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @03:22AM (#28058228)
> They'd rather just cargo cult an ugly McMansion that was produced at the lowest cost possible?

Yes, very much. That's how a lot of trends and styles move "down market." The new consumers want teh appearance of what they see as wealthy/elite/etc. But they frequently dont understand, appreciate, or recognise, what actually goes in to the goods they're trying to copy. You'll see this everywhere from houses to clothes.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by iso1631 on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @07:46AM (#28059841)
> Does no one care about how their house looks? They'd rather just cargo cult an ugly McMansion that was produced at the lowest cost possible?

Sure. Now put the build cost of the mcmansion of say $200k (plus land), vs your hand crafted mansion at $500k (plus land), and see what people really want.

In my country cookie cutter housing goes back over 100 years. The massive post-ww2 housing boom had the same design of houses springing up across the country, it allowed slum clearence and gave people cheap housing.

The main housing problem in the UK is the land cost/availability rather than construction cost thanks to every house not being bespoke. When land is allowed to be built on, half a dozen standard styles are dropped down on an estate of 500 new houses over a few years (dribbling out at the right level to maximise sale price and maintain the illusion of high demand low supply), but that was the same in the 00s, and the 80s, and even before then.

Now sure you can craft your own bespoke house with lovely hand-crafted artisinal features, but you're going to be paying a hell of a lot of money for it, and most people just want somewhere to live.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by Chris2048 on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @02:43PM (#28064637)
> most people just want somewhere to live

sure, except old houses sell for pretty high prices, implying there are plenty of people who want more than just a house.

I think there is a big difference between people without a house, who want to get on the lower rung of the housing ladder, and escape the poverty of renting (where rent costs more than mortgage payments, without any equity) versus those that have a house and want something better.

Cheap houses should be build (maybe even w/ government funding) to keep otherwise exploitative rentals competitive, but there should still be healthy competition & industry in higher quality housing.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by jacquesm on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @08:02AM (#28059972)
I just ordered two all-wood staircases to replace the steel spiral monstrosity that was built into the house where I live from the beginning. It was unsafe, unstable and way too steep so they really had to go. But the stairwell is a weird shape, there is partial overlap with the front door and the direction of turn had to be reversed. Enter the master carpenter who spent a 1/2 hour to measure up the stairwell and who then proceeded to create two new complete stairs that fit to the millimeter and solved all of the weird problems in one fell swoop. It wasn't cheap, but given the challenges and the materials used, the fact that they will probably last another 60 years or so and that they look amazing I figure that it was well worth it.

No way you could automate that kind of ingenuity. So, props to your dad, and there are more people like him still doing this work today.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by cudgy on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @03:05AM (#28058114)
Nice story. Tech is not always an improvement. In fact, the more years I live, the less enamored with tech I’ve become due to many examples like this.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by oblio on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @03:49AM (#28058395)
Tech is not always an improvement, but not due to the reason described in the comment above.

His negative presentation obscures an obvious fact: lower prices create the miracle of accessibility - people who could have never afforded the previous generation can now afford the new one, and in some cases their lives are changed for the better.

I know most of us here are snobs, but let's not forget that only the King of France would have had access to colorful non-itchy clothes back in the day, and now everyone can have them.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by eloisius on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @04:04AM (#28058483)
It may not spotlight the fact that lower prices facilitate accessibility, but I'm not oblivious to it. I definitely don't want to exchange cheap cotton knit t-shirts with hand-woven garments that cost me a month's labor or something. However, only considering the consumer-side satisfaction is characteristic of our culture's obsession with consumerism and economy at the cost of everything else. We all have to work, even with ever increasing tech we work probably more than anytime in history. I don't believe we're going to hit some inflection point where suddenly humans will be freed from labor. There is satisfaction to be found in craft and honing skill. If we delegate all that to machines that spit out crummy imitations, and humans are relegated to the mind-numbing task of babysitting a glitchy piece of tech, clearing a paper jam and hitting reset all day, I think that is a net loss for life satisfaction. Who cares if you can own a shitty McMansion when what you experience during majority of your wakeful life is mind-numbing frustration?
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by oblio on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @07:19AM (#28059688)
At a higher price you can still find craftsmanship. But now, as always, you have to afford it.

And regarding consumerism, it's not only consumerism. Washing machines and fridges and freezers and microwaves changed the way we lived. Especially washing machines and fridges made our lives much easier and better.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by eloisius on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @09:15AM (#28060634)
I'm also not a Luddite, so if it seems I'm making a vast anti-tech argument, I'm truly not. It's easy to get drawn into a futurism vs tradition argument, but I don't want to take either side in that debate. I love tools and I love inventions that amplify a human being's power and effectiveness. But there are tools that are miserable to use, produce horrible results, but are just enough to be acceptable and offer The Business enormous cost savings (or sometimes just the illusion of it). I don't have the energy to try and write a manifesto right now for which tools fall into either camp, but maybe some day.

I like writing code, and I think a lot of other people do too. But it's not just that I like writing the code and want it to be as low-level and arcane as possible. Give me a language that lets me be more expressive and accomplish more and I'll be all the more happy to adopt this tool and incorporate it into my craft.

But, imagine The Business decides that coders writing code is just too expensive, so we've purchased an AI that dials into all the conference calls stakeholders have regarding a project, and subsequently it can generate all the code necessary to meet the requirements. Well, kind of. After sitting in on the meetings, it can instantly generate the code that would have taken a dev team a whole quarter, and then send it over to QA. The only catch is that code is spaghetti and the defect rate is really high. Still, The Business only needs 25% of the coders that it used to have. But their job is a little different now. They don't write code per se. They just QA and fix bugs. The code is horrible, there's no design or architecture to speak of, it's hard to debug, and fixing defects is mind-numbing. But, at the end of the day, the low quality product is still good enough to sell, everyone else in the industry is doing it too, and besides, the cost savings is too huge to ignore.

No one has to "write" code anymore. Did our lives get easier and better? What is the ultimate end of easiest and best? No one has to do a thing and minimally acceptable food shows up when we're hungry while we continually slurp down personalized, proceduraly generated sitcoms?

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by Chris2048 on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @09:56AM (#28061051)
> we work probably more than anytime in history

I doubt that. Here's a rough approximation: https://clockify.me/working-hours

But that also ignores quality of life (as a result of work) and general work conditions. Working in a mine for an hour (or a hunter stalking prey, or working in a field) is not the same as an hour sitting in an office.

> where suddenly humans will be freed from labor

If by labor you mean physically intensive work, we are already there, most people live sedentary working lifestyles. If you mean any type of work - perhaps not, but at the same time "The Devil finds work for idle hands" so I'm not sure it's desirable, humans need something to do, and bored teenagers often cause mayhem.

> humans are relegated to the mind-numbing task of babysitting a glitchy piece of tech

Not sure how overseeing a brick-laying robot is more/less mind-numbing than laying the bricks yourself.

> clearing a paper jam and hitting reset all day

exactly the case with self-checkout, and the job doesn't seem more/less boring to me than working a checkout. At least the self-checkout machines improve over time.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by cudgy on Friday August 06, 2021 @05:01PM (#28092691)
Cheaper stuff that lasts 1/10th as long is not necessarily a better deal. Just had a 2 year old Samsung tv lose an lcd strip yesterday for example.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by eloisius on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @03:27AM (#28058257)
Same. I used to be absolutely starry eyed about the endless possibilities of digital tech. Now anytime I see computers getting involved where they previously were not, it's just a cost savings measure resulting in a severely inferior product that is just above the threshold of being unsellable. An example that comes to mind is information and entertainment itself. Humans used to curate content for us to consume, but more and more we're being entertained by machine-curated feeds with low quality content. The endless stream-of-conscious format of infiniscrolls and recommendations and 'related' or 'relevant' content is vastly inferior to carefully human-curated hierarchies of information.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by Chris2048 on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @11:11AM (#28061910)
This is a different kind of innovation. The issue is not every improvement will be to the consumer.

Better weapons will enable you to kill better/faster/harder. Tech improves the "can", not the "should" - you still need politics to reign in control.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by cseleborg on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @03:25AM (#28058250)
Couldn't agree more. The smartphone enabled a few very unique scenarios, like car sharing, and made everything else worse. It didn't use to be the case that you had to enter a PIN code, resist distraction from half a dozen notifications and hope you had got the power management right the night before when you wanted to read the morning news, but now that's the norm, just to give one example.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by iso1631 on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @07:50AM (#28059867)
I don't have notifications, my phone has a fingerprint reader, and I get the news from the radio which turns on at 7am anyway. It might be the norm for you, but it doesn't have to be. Turn off your phone and charge it in the kitchen.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by dagw on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @09:46AM (#28060930)
Does no one care about how their house looks?

I think people care more than ever how their house looks, and that is exactly why they buy "ugly McMansions".

I mean why else would you buy a McMansion, other than for the look. From a construction point, most aren't built to last. From an architecture point they aren't great "machines for living in". From an economic point they're neither frugal or a great investment.

Bottom line is the main reason people by a McMansion is because they care more than anything how their house look, and whether you or I like it they really want a house that looks like a McMansion.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by profsnuggles on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @09:50AM (#28060971)
I don't know anything about spiral staircases or masonry I build commercial furniture offices, libraries, courtrooms, etc.

Wondering how finances come out ahead is silly. Take for example take a CNC beamsaw. It does one thing cut straight lines. A person stands in front of it (or a robot but smaller shops it's a person) and puts a board on the machine. The machine grabs and executes a series of cuts. Then you take the parts it spits out rotate them feed them back in the machine to cut the other way. A person standing at a cabinet saw can do the same thing, faster even, with a nicer finish... for the first 10-20 cuts. The machine gives the same 95% quality cut every time in the same amount of time from cut 1 to cut 10,000.

When my shop first got one I by myself cut twice as much material in 1/5th of the time as it took 3 workers on cabinet table saws. And I actually had enough downtime while the machine was running to also put the parts through an edgebander to put a finished veneer edge on the cut parts at the same time.

The 3 CNC machines I run now don't screw up often and waste time or material. Even when there is a problem it's actually often due to user error. I just had to spend some time fixing our 5-axis machine because the operator accidentally left some loose material in it which a sensor on the machine detected to prevent the machine being damaged. The emergency stop it triggered ruined the part and the machine stopped so fast that the machine racked and I needed to re-calibrate it. But that is fairly unusual. Maybe instead of crappy tech they should have bought quality machines? Or maybe the machines were fine and someone should have invested in software instead of a crappy vb script? Or maybe the operators just needed more training?

A master craftsman can use a machine to create the same quality of work in less time if that is the goal. You can steam bend a board and then 5-axis machine it to create a very complicated edge detail that would be tedious to do by hand. Or you can glue blocks up with different grain directions and materials so the completed railing has an interesting design that would be impossible to create otherwise. Or even spend some more effort gluing up those blocks to make a better grain match.

The reason they are gluing up blocks and machining them is because it is cheaper and faster for an okay quality. Almost no one buying the "McMansion" staircase was going to buy your bespoke custom master craftsman spiral staircase. I work in a shop that makes all custom-built to order furniture. Sometimes potential clients call and have sticker shock when they hear the price or sometimes they need to furniture sooner than we can build something custom. They just go and buy something they can live with from a larger company that mass produces a furniture line where they will have inventory.

I don't see an issue with making something affordable for people who want it. I'm not even sure anything is lost, there are still people who will want the high quality product and someone will be there to supply that.

There is whole world between button pusher and master craftsman. Master craftsmen that embrace the technology can expand what is possible. And a button pusher cannot exist unless there is a master craftsmen to do the setup work.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by moftz on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @10:10AM (#28061187)
I was looking for a nice coffee table recently. I decided to try the unfinished wood furniture store, most of it made by the Amish or Menonites. I'm handy enough to stain but not equiped to build a table myself so I figured I'd save a few bucks doing the finish. Most the tables weren't our style but finally found one that looked great and was some real quality oak. Asked for the price and just about crapped my pants. We stopped by Ikea on the way home and bought probably the nicest table they had for a quarter of the price. The nicer Ikea table will be able to make it through any moving we do in the future but it most certainly won't be an heirloom like my parent's old oak stuff.

I want try my hand at some furniture building in the future but just don't have the space or some of the standard tools for it now.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by profsnuggles on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @10:48AM (#28061621)
That is also something people don't think about. Solid wood is great because it's easy to fix, but it's heavy and hard to move. Also it's less stable than a plywood and has to be taken care of.

We had a customer with a reception desk that had solid wood 5-piece raised panels in it. One of the panels cracked, so we sent them a new one under warranty and over 3-4 years it cracked more times. We finally sent someone to try to figure out the issue.

It was winter and the building was unusually warm and humid. The desk was positioned in front of the front door in a way that whenever it was opened the panel would get hit with an large blast of dry cold air. After convincing them to replace it with a more stable plywood raised panel simulacrum we haven't heard of an issue since.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by eloisius on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @10:29AM (#28061405)
Thanks for your take on it, I really don't want to be the anti-tech curmudgeon so I'm sincerely happy to read a different perspective. Especially your last paragraph makes me feel better. Maybe it's because CNC technology has come a long way since 15 years ago, or more likely because the staircase company I worked for were just cheapskates willing to strip mine their company's reputation. I feel like I had to recalibrate the damn thing hourly. The vacuum that held the stringers in place was not strong enough, so they would break loose and end up jamming the routing bit constantly. Having PTSD thinking about it.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by profsnuggles on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @11:27AM (#28062141)
Well CNC technology has come a long way. The 5-axis machine we purchased was actually cheaper in absolute $ than the 20 year old 3-axis machine we were replacing it with.

But yes vacuum clamping is still annoying. There are of course strategies like onion skinning, leaving tabs. On nesting machines I often cover the table with laminate if I'm running small parts and need to prevent vacuum loss through the spoil board.

Most people that I talk to that brought CNC into a shop haven't seem to have laid anyone off but instead seem to be able to retrain people and grow sales because of the new capacity it brought.

Although if there are people who are actually button pushers and legitimately bring nothing else to the table I think their time is limited. I wish I could find the video but last year our CNC vendor sent me a video of a concept manufacturing cell using an autonomous guided vehicle. It blew my mind. There was no operators or conveyors just robots cutting a whole lot of different sized parts of of different material at the same time. The parts got stacked on a pallets which the AGV drove around to the different operations. They were even showing off handling non rectangular parts with no problem.

Probably not that expensive either I was thinking maybe $2 million based on the prices of machines I knew and... wildly guessing at the price of the robotics. Expensive but imagine 15 more years?

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by michael1999 on Thursday August 05, 2021 @11:29AM (#28075095)
Wait until you discover how well made old clothes were. It's this x100.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by orliesaurus on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @02:16AM (#28057779)
Loved reading this post!
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by Folcon on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @05:47AM (#28059104)
Could you link to some screenshots?

Sorry it's really hard to get a sense of the difference you're describing and I'm really interested to see what it looks like.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by eloisius on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @05:51AM (#28059127)
Screenshots of woodwork?

Edit: sorry that was unreasonably snarky. I know you're looking for pictures. The CNC-milled kind that I am talking about are easy to find. Google image search 'curved handrail cnc.' I'm actually having a hard time finding pictures of classic steam-bent curved handrails amongst tons of content marketing from bendywood and contractors. If you happen to tour an antique house with curved, wooden handrails, study the way they look. it's usually one long beam, maybe with carved, ornamental caps at the end. I don't really know when the change took place, but if you look at any house built at least since the nineties, the handrail (if not painted) will look like a bunch of disjoint blocks stuck together.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by Folcon on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @06:16AM (#28059287)
Ahh, so one continuous block of wood following the grain vs sliced together chunks that will bring to mind Frankenstein's monster.

Hmm, I wonder if you can feel the difference when you rub your hand over it if it's just polished, probably not if painted. So perhaps people who want polished wood for their staircase might go for the older style even if it's more expensive?

Yea, flubbed on the screenshots bit, was just thinking images of stairs and as I expected them to come from your computer my brain clearly went to screenshots instead of pictures =)...

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by mauvehaus on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @07:52AM (#28059885)
There are, on the other hand, ways to combine the old and the new harmoniously. I'm building a cabinet on stand, and because there are drawers behind a door, the pulls need to be inset.

Carving the undercut by hand is pretty time consuming (i.e. unprofitable). But I have access to a CNC router. I laid out a template in FreeCad, and cut it out. Using template bushings and an edge fluting bit with the bearing boss ground off, I can cut the pulls with the undercut in a couple minutes each. And they come out more regular than doing them by hand.

I'll admit that I'm not much of a carver, but I don't think I could get the time per pull down anywhere near that while maintaining the same consistency even with a lot of practice.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by forcry on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @04:10AM (#28058518)
Sadly this is a global phenomenon. The same thing can be seen in, for example, movie/music industry as well. And we have to assume that the same holds in other fields as well..

I wonder if we can generalise the lost quality and attribute it to a lack of case by case application human ingenuity and experience that an experienced craftsman brings to the trade.

Or may be we can attribute the loss of aesthetics to the financial gain it brings. There is no free lunch, and somethings got to give to make gains elsewhere. And it is inevitable that when one of those two things is extreamly measurable (finance) and the other extremely un-measurable (aesthetics), the measurable thing always ultimately wins.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by toyg on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @05:18AM (#28058899)
> may be we can attribute the loss of aesthetics to the financial gain it brings.

That's an element, but another big element is specialist-subject education.

If you are an old-money guy, you can spend your life figuring out the best attributes of everything around you, and pursuing excellence in what you own. Your parents and grandparents can educate you in what a great staircase looks like, and you can spend weeks going from shop to shop until you find the right thing, or hire a carpenter to make it for however long it takes to be "just so".

If you are somebody who's just made their money, and maybe are still neck-deep into the rat race, you don't know anything about staircases and you have no time, nor contacts, to educate yourself on what it should look like. Developer shows you the staircase, it looks alright, sold.

More and more people are chained to their day job for longer and longer. More and more people are coming up in the world and buying stuff they don't know anything about, enriching companies targeting the mass-market more than specialist ones. This is nothing new: in the XX century we've seen this happening for anything from clothes to cutlery. In a way, it's a good thing: objects become more and more efficient and functional, eschewing aesthetic values that are somewhat irrational and often just classist. It's true, though, that we lose a cultural element.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by eloisius on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @05:21AM (#28058927)
I'd love to see a study done on this. What you you wrote made me think of Phaedrus slowly losing his mind trying to define quality in Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. Quality goods are still available, even if they are buried in the marketplace of cheap disposable goods and hard to find amongst all the noise of advertising and sponsored content.

What worries me more is the receding availability of _quality work to be done_. If you've ever worked with tools and materials, I mean physical ones, you know. It's among the most satisfying experiences in the world to feel the sensation of being good at (and becoming better at) something through practice. To be able to select the materials you use and discern their quality. To feel a familiar and trusted tool manipulating the materials to produce something. Those things are innately pleasurable.

McJob robot babysitters that only intercede when the machine screws up, overseeing the production of low-but-acceptable-quality products at a predictable pace is, in my mind, a dystopia. Getting a Bricklayerbot 2000 unstuck a few times per hour is not the kind of skill I can imagine being pleasurable to hone. There's a very low ceiling on the craftsmanship there.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by HeyLaughingBoy on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @06:03PM (#28067009)
Yeah, but for every craftsman, there's 10 people who just want a job that can make them a good living. That's really just how the world is.

There will always be people who take great pride in their work and enjoy doing the best job they can with the tools & materials they have. But they will always be a small minority.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by IkmoIkmo on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @03:34AM (#28058308)
> We don’t need to solve just for the physical actions, but also for the human experience of building and the feeling of mastery. Particularly for physical trades.

Why? At the end of the day there'll be two companies offering to build your wall. Human vs Tech-assisted Human (and eventually, robot). If one is faster, more accurate and cheaper, the buyer will choose it. The other will go out of business.

It's not about masons embracing this, it's about clients embracing superior outcomes (quality, price and/or time). Eventually the few masons that make the switch to superior outcomes will push the others out of the market.

That is of course assuming tech-assisted/robot will actually be better. At the moment it's not in the vast majority of cases. But granting that assumption, I don't think 'satisfying the human experience of a mason' will go into the equation for long.

That's not a value judgement, I think building good human experiences is important. I just don't think in the decision making process it'll matter due to inevitable competition.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by Broken_Hippo on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @03:57AM (#28058450)
I don't know. You are trading strange things here: Even if you like doing brickwork, is it worth the toll on your body? I've met a lot of construction workers: I've met fewer that are nearing retirement age that are still working - and generally, when they do work, they use the machines while folks who haven't hurt their back, shoulders, and other bits do the physical work. Not everyone needs mastery of something physical and not everyone needs to get "pride" or other positive feelings from work so long as their work isn't horrible and the hours aren't overly long.

And I bet there are plenty of folks that would rather babysit this machine than babysit the machine at the fast food place.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by HeyLaughingBoy on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @05:55PM (#28066913)
I remember around 10-12 years ago my son had a birthday party at our house and one of the children's fathers asked how long we had lived here. We told him and he replied "OK, I was pretty sure this house looked familiar: I built your stone fireplace. You have some boulder retaining walls out back, don't you? I built those too." The pride on his face, finally getting to meet the homeowner and show off his work, was amazing.

The cool thing about bricks and rock is that those walls will probably be there 100 years from now.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by jameshart on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @09:27AM (#28060756)
> We don’t need to solve just for the physical actions, but also for the human experience of building and the feeling of mastery. Particularly for physical trades.

This is like complaining that cars did away with the pleasures of horsemanship, or how laser printers have destroyed the pride engravers derived from their work.

The history of technology is full of taking hard tasks that people took years to master and therefore derived status and self respect from, and replacing them with machines. People cope.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by gotts on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @08:41PM (#28055986)
Reading about your father having such a long career in brick masonry sparked joy in me. Thanks for sharing
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by azernik on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @06:33PM (#28067312)
Construction is an economic activity, not a hobby.

We generally do not structure our economic activity for maximum enjoyment on the part of the worker, but for lowest price and best quality to the consumer. To the extent that this translates into catering to the worker, it's by way of the increased efficiency allowing higher wages (though, as recent US experience shows, companies can also grab all the productivity gains for themselves).

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by octokatt on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @07:42PM (#28067880)
Perhaps we should structure life differently, to give more power to the worker, instead of reducing a vocation to an economic formula of parts to be sold.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by x86_64Ubuntu on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @09:18AM (#28060666)
From a financial perspective, no one cares if the blue collar laborer has a sense of accomplishment at the end of the day. We've automated away plenty of jobs out there with little concern about the devices having to be babysat or how the observers feel.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by mstipetic on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @02:08AM (#28057741)
Since when do we account for people’s feelings when deciding to automate something or not?
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by mbesto on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @10:56PM (#28056704)
> This is why partial robotic systems don't really exist; either it's a nifty tool that speeds up a small repeatable process of your work, or it's building the entire house.

I think I understand your overall point, but what you said isn't exactly true. Isn't "speed up a repeatable process" essentially a partial robotic system?

Just look at a modern car manufacturing plant - it's essentially one big chain of robotics with human overseers. There aren't that many exceptions to car manufacturing once the set car variants are establish (LX, CX, blah blah model variants). I would consider that whole system a "partial robotic system".

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by atoav on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @01:40AM (#28057599)
Yeah, but houses are rarely like a serial manufactured car. Sometimes you have to lay down every row of bricks differently with a ton of unplanned (or unplannable) things to account for, because the electrician might work while you lay your brick etc.

Not that you cannot automate whole houses and sell them off the shelve for cheap (see prefabs), it just isn't something that could be done at a site where your brickbot 2000 has to share the job both with the workers whose jobs it replaces and with people from non-brickbot-2000-educated workers from different companies.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by brnt on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @03:51AM (#28058412)
> Yeah, but houses are rarely like a serial manufactured car.

But aren't many of them? May be country specific, but in the one I currently reside there are tons of neighbourhoods that were built at once, 1000 homes+. In the US I've seen areas like that too. I can easily imagine a robot puts down the basics, and the individual tweaking is done later by hand.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by VBprogrammer on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @04:25AM (#28058605)
For me this feels like robotics operating at the wrong layer of abstraction. It's like those old tomorrow's world programs where they show the robotic helper diligently sweeping the floor with a grass broom.

In car manufacturing robots are used to bolt and weld together stamped metal panels, this feels more like someone designing a robot which would be given a flat sheet of metal and using hammer and dollies forming the complete panel to be attached to the car.

In short, if we ever see a major change to automate housing construction I expect it will also come along with significant changes in construction methods.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by wnkrshm on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @07:12AM (#28059638)
The change is already there, prefab build techniques lead to construction companies keeping everything in-house - from crane operators to plumbers. The building is split into parts that can be built in-house and then assembled on-site - the aim is to have the structure with a roof on it as quickly as possible, since that makes you more independent of weather for finishing it. Especially for warehouses and facotries it's really impressive.

It's the difference between trying to take the factory to the site and just taking the parts to the site.

Also, as far as I understand, 3D-printing concrete does not give you any way to construct larger buildings, where you need pretensioned and reinforced parts...

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by Chris2048 on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @11:44AM (#28062338)
> the aim is to have the structure with a roof on it as quickly as possible

Couldn't you just build a tent-like scaffolding for this purpose? Maybe one that can be extended as the internal build progresses?

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by atoav on Friday August 06, 2021 @01:35AM (#28083665)
You would need to build a tent like scaffolding that you can still work in, e.g. with a crane. That would be a non-trivial thing to design, put up and maintain, especially if it has to withstand stroms without damaging the building etc.

It is simpler to just put the house there quickly.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by toyg on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @05:07AM (#28058832)
In many ways this is what much of prefab is. Building is carried out offsite by robots, and humans just assemble panels onsite. However, this reduces the adaptability of the building, increases transport and storage costs and complexity, and creates new issues (apparently prefabs can be at higher risk of fire).

Construction is one of those things where the process is much less regular and perfectly-repetitive than outcomes would suggest.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by Hendrikto on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @05:15AM (#28058881)
Have you seen the concrete 3D printers? They printed weird looking houses with them. Very nifty. There are even people living in them.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by atoav on Friday August 06, 2021 @01:37AM (#28083672)
Yes I have seen concrete 3D printers. Does it also print rebar into the concrete?
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by MomoXenosaga on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @05:10AM (#28058855)
In my country houses are build in factories and then assembled on site. You rarely build a single house you build an entire neighbourhood in one go.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by nine_k on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @07:41AM (#28059813)
This is a great way to build out when your city is growing like mad. I think China and Russia have seen and still see a lot of development like this.

Eventually you end up with a dense city when you need to upgrade or replace a building in a constrained environment (think NYC or London or Tokyo), you have very different limitations and technology.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by Symmetry on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @10:56AM (#28061733)
After WWII there was a big boom in houses made that way in the United States too but then homebuilders were able to get legislation passed so that "a small manufactured house is disfavored because it’s mobile like a vehicle but it is also required by law to be mobile like a vehicle" and the problem for them went away.

https://www.slowboring.com/p/trailer-regulation

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by GFischer on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @02:50PM (#28064710)
Very interesting read, we're facing similar regulatory capture issues here in my country.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by Chris2048 on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @08:39AM (#28060291)
Are the factories mobile and/or relocatable to reduce transport costs; and/or are the neighbourhood location requirements somewhat specific (e.g. flat stable land, good road access etc)?
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by hippari on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @05:21AM (#28058928)
You rarely get to build a new neighbourhood here, often it's renovation work done on already built areas. Building a whole new block all the time is simply unsustainable.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by _trampeltier on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @06:58AM (#28059565)
And outside it can be sunny, rainy or even snowing, sometimes even on the same day.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by goguy on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @02:59AM (#28058073)
Just wait for electrobot 2000 and the problem is resolved :)
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by gmadsen on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @09:48AM (#28060955)
take a look at the seers catalog houses of the 30s
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by spyckie2 on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @03:29PM (#28065163)
Yeah, my point wasn't really well stated, I think that was why it generated discussion.

Robots exist en masse already, we just don't call them robots, we call them washing machines and dishwashers and factory lines. There's a blurred line in between machines that do stuff and robots.

In discussing the automation revolution, I like to think the difference is robots functioning autonomously (sorry dishwasher, you're not included). While there is still a lot left to do in speeding up repeatable processes, building robots that can run themselves with higher abstract operational input ("build a brick wall") is where the revolution is at.

Robotic tooling plays a huge role in this, unsurprisingly - robots need to do everything humans can do. But... we mostly build human interfaces, not robot interfaces - switches instead of electrical signals, handles instead of joints, etc.

This is for good reason; mass produced robots can't do basic movement, precise placement, etc. (well, not at cost). So robots are extremely limited to being bolted in factories or otherwise constrained environments. But when robots can start to do generalized tasks, I'd be interested in seeing exactly what kinds of autonomous stuff robots will start to do.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by mavhc on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @06:46PM (#28055184)
Not destroying your body lifting heavy weights for 50 years seems like something people might like.

We automated looking after the house after it's been built, no need for people scrubbing floors and clothes any more, freed up 40% of the workforce.

My partially automated vacuum cleaner, clothes washer, dish washer, food cooker, water heater, all work well.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by coldacid on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @06:53PM (#28055250)
>Not destroying your body lifting heavy weights for 50 years seems like something people might like.

And that's why the exoskeleton system mentioned in passing in the article is more popular with construction labourers than any of these robots.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by minikites on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @07:08PM (#28055382)
Better tools amplify human skills instead of attempting to replace them.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by dendrite9 on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @07:33PM (#28055558)
This always has seemed like a good goal to have. There is some work where automation makes sense, but I don't think replacing is always the right goal. https://pluralistic.net/2021/02/17/reverse-centaur/#reverse-...
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by yodelshady on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @09:29AM (#28060784)
Think I'd put money behind a separate machine, but one that just delivers you the brick at hand height, rather than a continual bend-down/place/pick-up cycle. I would say "Brick Butler" or if a startup... Brcklr, the device is free, but the bricks have DRM and post instagram stories as you lay them.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by themaninthedark on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @12:44PM (#28063155)
Nice, also build a management interface so they can see the workers brick per hour stats.

Add in GPS, keep all the data and later sell the database to insurance companies so they can charge higher rates for construction that happened too fast.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by coldacid on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @10:11AM (#28061193)
Yeah, that seems like the best plan. It might not improve the speed of bricklaying, but it would certainly be an improvement on the bricklayers' quality of life.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by imtringued on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @04:59AM (#28058796)
It does sound like a mason that can lift 5 bricks at a time is more productive than a machine that can lay bricks 5 times faster in a synthetic benchmark.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by version_five on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @07:16PM (#28055435)
Most construction relies on fit young men to do the "heavy lifting". It would be interesting to see how the dynamics changesd if technology moved the needle on the brawn->brain scale, so that the core value prop of a construction worker was not their fitness. I'm not convinced it would be for the better.

Also just want to add that working in a physical job for 50 years is much better for your body than sitting at a desk for 50 years.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by inglor_cz on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @01:59AM (#28057698)
"Also just want to add that working in a physical job for 50 years is much better for your body than sitting at a desk for 50 years. "

The experience of my neighbors from an industrial city is 100 per cent opposite. Physical jobs tend to consist of endless repetitive tasks that put a huge strain on certain joints and sinews while leaving other parts of your body idle. And many physical jobs will expose you to health risks such as breathing dust.

All the miners, steel workers, construction workers etc. I knew had major problems with their joints around 35 years of age and none of them could continue to work in their original job after 50.

On the other hand, negative effects of sedentary work can be mostly compensated by not eating processed crap (to prevent obesity) and exercising moderately three or four times a week. Plenty of people do that.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by oblio on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @03:50AM (#28058407)
Office work is also less deadly than physical work. Just look up the numbers. Hard to fall off the office chair to your death, not so hard to fall off the scaffolding to your death.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by makeitdouble on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @07:50PM (#28055686)
> physical job for 50 years

I think you’re envisioning jobs with high skill requirements or low demand, or a mix of both. Like landscaper for the town, or garbage truck operator.

Otherwise you’ll generally be met with a combination of RSI, hazardous product ingestion (dust, paint fumes, exhaust…), allergies, injuries, or sheer overwork.

Working a low wage low level physical job is more often than not closer to Amazon warehouse worker than artisans healthily exercising their bodies.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by NoPicklez on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @10:16PM (#28056485)
I just want to iterate that working an office job also carries with it its own health problems. Low physical activity from sitting all day, forward posture from sitting all day, RSI from typing and mouse movement, eye problems, overwork (Arguably more than labor jobs).
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by XenophileJKO on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @01:37AM (#28057587)
As someone that has worked digging ditches and carrying shingles up a ladder all day. I respectfully disagree. They are not remotely comparabe.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by xyproto on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @01:55AM (#28057670)
One doesn't exclude the other. All types of work-induced health problems are possible.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by NoPicklez on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @03:19AM (#28058212)
Exactly
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by oblio on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @03:52AM (#28058415)
All of those are super low risk compared to having your hand chopped off by something or a ton of bricks falling on your head.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by mypalmike on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @05:23AM (#28058944)
In addition, office workers have the option of engaging in exercise during their off time to compensate for the sedentary aspect of desk work.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by esailija on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @07:08AM (#28059617)
Yep and in optimal amounts, which is surprisingly little.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by oldsecondhand on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @02:07AM (#28057739)
> RSI from typing

Most office jobs don't involve that much typing. You can also buy keyboards with softer switches. (RSI was more common in the days of mechanical typewriters.) Low physical acitivity can be made up for going to the gym after work.

It sounds to me you never did a day of manual labor in your life.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by NoPicklez on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @03:18AM (#28058210)
Well not to discredit your point but a day in the life off wouldn't really bring to life any of the points we're discussing when it comes to physical injuries. Without you picking at each of my points in detail, RSI is still an injury people STILL DO get nonetheless. In the same way that the introduction of the hard hat hasn't completely stopped people having their head caved in.

My point, was that both physical/labor intensive jobs and office jobs bring their own types of workplace related problems. And just because the job may carry with it a risk of physical injury doesn't mean the job should be automated. Afterall, any type of movement the body does carries with it a risk of injury.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by necovek on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @05:48AM (#28059109)
IMHO, anything that not enough people can find interesting and engaging should be automated — injury risk is also a great reason to automate something. Of course, there is a cost involved, so we shouldn't expect any of it to happen overnight.

While your point is true that every profession has an injury risk, it's the type of comment that misses the point: there is a significant difference in those stats, and by trying to equate them, you are purposely watering down the significance of one where injuries are more prevalent (or at least harder).

It's a response similar in style to deflecting from attempts to solve one crisis by introducing another crisis.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by darkwater on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @03:11AM (#28058156)
> Also just want to add that working in a physical job for 50 years is much better for your body than sitting at a desk for 50 years.

This is a pipe dream of white collar who never did any actual, real, physical job for a very prolonged time. It's not like going to the gym for free or doing just the right amount of sport. It's something that stresses your joints and your muscles day in day out. Obviously you will partly get used to it and be "more fit" than a white collar but you will also develop back pain and joints pain.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by thrwyoilarticle on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @10:09PM (#28056451)
>Also just want to add that working in a physical job for 50 years is much better for your body than sitting at a desk for 50 years.

Not for my carpet-fitting granddad. And it's not like he has a private pension. Desk job damage can mostly be undone by proper exercise: it takes surgery to fix knees.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by MillenialMan on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @05:28AM (#28058983)
This is completely untrue. Contrary to popular belief, sitting at a desk is extremely healthy in comparison to manual labour, which destroys your body over time.

Standing all day is also worse for your back than sitting all day. Even being a shop assistant is harder on your body, and particularly your back, than sitting at a desk. (Alternating, i.e. an office job with a sit/stand desk, is best.)

The primary issue is complete lack of inactivity (a large component just being weight gain), which you can combat by exercising outside of the office.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by MillenialMan on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @05:23AM (#28058945)
People already have the option to not lay bricks. They don't choose it, because they need money.

I get that everyone is going to say, "well then, UBI" but bear in mind in an automated society, power is disproportionately in the hands of the people who own the machines, and they're unlikely to part with their wealth voluntarily.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by concordDance on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @04:24AM (#28058597)
> freed up 40% of the workforce.

And did that actually improve everyone's quality of life? Or did it just increase the cost of positional goods (check out house prices in the West)?

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by mavhc on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @04:44AM (#28058717)
It improved the quality of life of people who didn't have to spend all day washing floors.

Isn't the point that house prices are high because they've not been automated? And also that people expect to buy a house using a massive loan over decades.

Although from the videos it looks like the brick walls don't actually hold anything up half the time, so might as well replace them with brick patterned wallpaper

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by imtringued on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @05:02AM (#28058813)
House prices are high because land prices are high. There are some cities where permitting is a nightmare and the "brainy" people displaced the "brawny" people but those are the exception.

>Although from the videos it looks like the brick walls don't actually hold anything up half the time, so might as well replace them with brick patterned wallpaper

Idea: Assemble the wall paper on the ground with a machine and install it in one go.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by coldtea on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @04:15AM (#28058536)
>If you build a robot that only handles the main workflow and can't handle any of the exceptions, you're not automating anything; you're building a convenience tool. Basically, you're removing some of the labor part of the job, but still keeping the decision making part of the job for humans.

Which is still automation.

Robots in factories making cars still leave most of the "decision making part of the job for humans".

See, the size of the "decision making part of the job" matters...

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by markdown on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @04:18AM (#28058557)
Robots in factories can only do one job, building the same car over and over again.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by coldtea on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @06:24AM (#28059340)
Which is neither here nor there.

It's still automation (which, as a concept, doesn't require being able to do multiple jobs, or even to do a single job from start to completion).

A mechanical system that frees a human from having to do do part of a job is already automation, and can still save tons of time and worker costs/effort. E.g. a system that automatically assembles 95% of a car door, and a human just has to come in at the end and attach some hard to automate part, is still better than the human having to assemble to whole door.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by markdown on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @05:10PM (#28066356)
Have you ever worked in construction?
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by coldtea on Thursday August 05, 2021 @04:15AM (#28071143)
Again, a non sequitur. Is there a point here?
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by markdown on Thursday August 05, 2021 @10:08PM (#28082515)
The point is that it's easy to, from a distance, think that something is just like another thing. Without experience in a particular domain, you really don't know how things work. No two walls are alike.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by paxys on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @07:13PM (#28055415)
> If you build a robot that only handles the main workflow and can't handle any of the exceptions, you're not automating anything; you're building a convenience tool. Basically, you're removing some of the labor part of the job, but still keeping the decision making part of the job for humans.

You are wayyy underselling the importance of convenience tools. Even without working out edge cases you can reduce a workforce of 100 people to 95 robots and 5 supervisors/decision makers.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by phreeza on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @03:43AM (#28058356)
> If you build a robot that only handles the main workflow and can't handle any of the exceptions, you're not automating anything.

Sounds to me like this criticism could have been made of the dishwasher and washing machine, too. I suppose what matters is the ratio of edge cases to regular cases.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by TeMPOraL on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @07:35PM (#28055574)
> This is both economically unviable and largely unpopular.

And yet, you can make billions of dollars on it.

This is literally the modus operandi of modern tech companies like Google and Amazon. Automate the main workflow, silently ignore exceptions, and if anyone complains about problems (or your non-existent customer support), just wave your hands in the air and mumble something about "scale being hard".

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by yholio on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @05:05AM (#28058821)
If you can automate 80% of the jobs your customers require, you can make a billion dollars and send the other 20% potential customers to talk to Mailer Daemon. If you automate 80% of every job and leave 20% to every customer, you have no customers.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by SlapperKoala on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @05:51AM (#28059130)
If you have bugs in an app or website people get mildly annoyed, if you have bugs in a bricklayer a building can fall down. The cost benefit calculation is very different
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by d--b on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @08:43AM (#28060326)
The construction industry is full of these "convenience" tools. If you had a working human-sized robot that could just lay some bricks, pretty sure everyone would use it, even if it didn't do the angles or whatever.

The problem must be somewhere else: setup time is too long, too many constrains or whatever. It's not that the edge cases are not handled, it's that the main case is not handled well...

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by sandworm101 on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @09:27AM (#28060761)
>> robot that could just lay some bricks

How often does that actually come up in modern construction? We don't really do brick buildings anymore. Bricks are generally only a façade, a decoration, rather than the structure of a building. They have to look great because that is now their job. They have to fit between other decorative features and adapt to curves and non-perfect angles. Previous edge cases are now a daily norm.

I say that the robot brick machine is already common. Those trucks that pump concrete into forms are the automated brick layers. This is an important point for all robotics. It is always very hard to build a robot that can directly replace a human. The way forward is to build a robot that gets the job done using different means. The human "dishwasher" was replaced by a machine that does the same basic task but via very different means. The concrete pumping robot now creates solid walls faster than any team could ever lay bricks.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by MaxikCZ on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @12:00PM (#28062586)
I do not know where you live, but I can speak for Czech republic (mid Europe): basically all houses are made by layling bricks. Its not "the" small brick, it typically range 10-50 cm in depth, which is its shortest dimension. Sure, theres ytong and such, but that too is essentially a big brick. Module or wood houses are absolute minority here.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by sandworm101 on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @12:20PM (#28062843)
In north american, hand-laid bricks are just to expensive. It is far cheaper to build wooden forms and fill them with concrete. Bricks are then stacked as non-structural decoration on the outside of the concrete or wood walls.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by vl on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @12:57PM (#28063388)
My guess would be that the main reason is that in the event of the earthquake you would survive in the second and die in the first.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by strogonoff on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @07:31PM (#28055543)
Automating any repeated sequence of actions is a valid concept that doesn’t need to be rebranded as “convenience tooling”. If decision-making is required, that sounds more like an autonomy requirement to me. Autonomy is a concept distinct from automation, and not mutually exclusive.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by version_five on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @06:44PM (#28055170)
What you're saying resonates for so many new products. I find that most time or labor saving ideas save time on something that is not actually the problem, or address a charicature of the actual workflow. I dont think it means we should give up and stop trying, rather that its critical to test with real users IMO before trying to sign deals on a product that doesn't make sense.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by pvorb on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @06:53PM (#28055255)
And sometimes the things that are automated were the only thing that was pleasant. It's not true for laying bricks because the heavy lifting makes it unpleasant.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by version_five on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @07:06PM (#28055369)
I have never laid brick but I've done a lot of shingled roofs. The "fun" part of shingling is long stretches of full sheets in the middle of the roof. This goes quickly and is rewarding. The less fun, and what occupies the time, is where there is a chimney or a valley or a dormer or some other feature that you need to figure out and cut some flashing for, and custom fit each shingle that butts up against the feature, seal with tar sometimes, etc.

I picture a lot of automated solutions focusing on the "in the field" part where the work is easy and rewarding, and glossing over the manual intervention and craftsmanship that is needed for all the nonstandard bits. I don't know about bricklaying though I imagine it has similar characteristics, where a square windowless wall goes very fast, and could be pleasant work, and all the time is spent dealing with windows and the frame not being level and other edge cases.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by coldacid on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @06:54PM (#28055259)
Not just test! Real users need to be there from the requirements stage.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by version_five on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @06:59PM (#28055306)
Yes agreed, sorry I was thinking in terms of a new product, testing the value prop with users, which is probably better stated as requirements gathering.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by Chris2048 on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @08:21AM (#28060125)
> economically unviable

> You're not reducing labor costs by much

You could make the same argument wrt supermarket self checkout. They still need a worker to manage the machines. Yet you need fewer human workers overall, so productivity still increases per-worker at the right scale. Allow the tech to develop and they may become more viable.

arguing "you still need humans" seems to me to be a straw-man; there no rule that this is useless so long as humans are still involved - if productivity increases, that's enough.

> you're building a convenience tool

Which seems fine to me. Removing the majority of the "labour" part of the job removes the most unskilled part that humans are least appropriate for (repetitive uncreative/boring work) and freeing them up for the "hard/creative decisions" aspect that humans are better at.

> largely unpopular

> workers lose control over their job

This might be unpopular among workers; not sure, other worker might prefer it. At least, if this requires fewer workers to lay brick, either the demand is such that it can still meet worker supply, or workers suffer (from lower wages or unemployment).

But this is irrelevant - barring union influence, it's not the workers that get to decide. If the job is to "babysit machines" you either refuse the job, or you don't - so long as people take the job, they will grow.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by MillenialMan on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @05:19AM (#28058911)
I don't really understand this. When I see a small house being built, it will have four or five builders on-site at all times, mostly doing labour (and they're, frankly, extremely slow. It will take months to lay the bricks). If you still need the decisions, can't you cut that down to one, or maybe two? That strikes me as a dramatic reduction in labour cost.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by necovek on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @05:33AM (#28059010)
Multi-story buildings take only a few days of brick-laying by 4-5 people. Before you can lay the bricks though, you need a firm foundation to carry those bricks, including those concrete floors which take a while to dry up.

There is still a bunch of work in construction that can happen while brick laying happens (plumbing and electrical installations in the floor, pillars to carry roof/next floor, ...) and there is usually a mandated licensed professional to oversee the construction (or few, one for safety, one for quality and ensuring the project is actually followed).

And you can also start doing things as parts of walls get completed (installing windows, insulation, more electrical installations). After the building is put under a roof, that's when the real work begins :), though that's even easier to parallelize.

Brick laying is literally one of the quickest parts and most effective parts of making a building look like a building, but it's nowhere near the most costly thing.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by himinlomax on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @08:22AM (#28060134)
> including those concrete floors which take a while to dry up.

FWIW, the slower concrete dries, the stronger it gets. To the point where critical concrete buildings like bridges are kept moist for days or even weeks with hoses and wet blankets.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by MillenialMan on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @05:42AM (#28059066)
There's a build happening at the end of my road at the moment, I can see how this maps onto that. Thanks - this explains a lot.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by vbezhenar on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @06:27AM (#28059359)
Where I live, there's often master bricker (who does all the skilled work) and dumb labour assistants who are doing dumb work like moving bricks, mix the cement and so on which does not require skill. Master gets all money and assistant gets some low payment (something like $1-$2/hour). I think that assistant work could easily be automated. But probably in my country low wages would make it economically unviable. But in US something like boston dynamics robot dog might actually be viable for such dumb labour I guess.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by gridspy on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @06:35AM (#28059420)
The odd thing about "dumb labor" is that many of those tasks are only easy for humans. Dealing in a messy world of human-to-human interfaces and cluttered unstructured worksites is generally hard for robots.

The dog for instance might be able to drag a load, but would probably need help refilling it.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by vbezhenar on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @11:01AM (#28061785)
I expect dog to have a robotic hand and eyes, so it could refill himself, move bricks to a target location and put them onto the top of the wall, use stairs and so on. Of course it should not be a one-trick pony, the whole point is in something universal which could easily configured to perform different tasks.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by samstave on Thursday August 05, 2021 @12:43AM (#28069951)
Why does the robot have to handle all the "edge cases"???

That seems really stupid to think that the robot must be able to build the whole thing or it's useless.

Just have robots put up large, long, straight walls. Have a separate one for curves, or a special one that only handles corners etc...

Or have a robot that just preps the brick with correct amount mortar and hands the brick to the human for placement, maybe there is an aligning contraption (doesn't have to be a robot)...

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by j7ake on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @04:41AM (#28058695)
This is a well written point.

In our interactions with robots, I feel the future valuable work will come from work where humans have the agency and direction, while robot’s functions have been specifically tailored to augment the specific human’s skills or relieve the human of certain repetitive parts of the process.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by babesh on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @01:25AM (#28057538)
> The value of work is not in the work done; it's in the decisions being made. It's the ability to handle edge cases, to work your way through ambiguity, to "unstuck" a stuck situation, and to resolve tricky unforeseen issues.

The first part describes programming perfectly.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by rubenbe on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @05:09AM (#28058849)
Also, adding complex robots adds the need for more qualified (hence more expensive) personnel. It's better to have only have to recruit and pay "bricklayer"-profile instead of the rare "can fix complex robots and is a bricklayer"-profile.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by JacobDotVI on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @09:27AM (#28060760)
Would you not consider a power drill a "partial robotic system"? Is this a situation where once something is useful it switches from being a "robot" to just a "power tool" and so "robots" are a kind of endless frontier?
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by raptor99 on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @09:53AM (#28061001)
I was confused at first; I thought you were talking about self driving vehicles, or cooking robots, or practically any "automation" that has to interface with the chaotic, random, and analog, real world. Hmm.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by lifeisstillgood on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @03:04AM (#28058107)
This is just an example of not enough software has been written to handle all the edge cases, and/or not enough has been done to the field to turn it into a factory (groundworks not level etc)
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by IanSanders on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @04:34AM (#28058652)
That somehow hit home regarding software development (and technology in general). Brick laying is a metaphor for something else
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by tragomaskhalos on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @03:02AM (#28058091)
Exactly. If you need an expert to constantly babysit the machine then you may as well dispense with the machine and have the expert build the wall themselves.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by onion2k on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @03:10AM (#28058145)
That's only true if the machine builds walls at the same speed as a person and the person can only babysit one machine at a time. If the machine is 10 times faster, or the person can babysit 10 machines, then you've reduced your labor costs by 90% or your output by 1000%.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by LightG on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @05:29AM (#28058987)
Sounds like FSD.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by moss2 on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @04:45AM (#28058719)
By that logic, power tools don't exist.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by NonContro on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @08:32PM (#28055941)
I'm planning to build a house, and it has surprised me that standardised house plans are not readily available online - particularly for European weather conditions - the emphasis is instead on custom floorplans.

Creating new designs millions of times over seems like an obvious inefficiency.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by rurounijones on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @02:26AM (#28057859)
I think the middle ground is something like https://wudl.co.uk/ where your house is essentially put together from smaller modular pieces. This allows pre-construction and the efficiencies in "mass production" while allowing semi-customisation.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by necovek on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @06:00AM (#28059178)
Local companies doing construction in Serbia will happily provide you with a plan as well as a building cost ahead of time.

However, plots and legal requirements differ significantly that in urban environments, it's hard to make the most of the plot without going custom (requirement to be that far away from the neighbour and the street, whether you can have windows facing that side or not, what kind of foundation is required by the terrain, etc).

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by NonContro on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @09:44AM (#28060915)
You're probably right. It makes more sense to sell those mass-produced floorplans to architects, who will make slight tweaks for local conditions and perhaps pay via subscription, rather than directly to consumers who will probably just copy the floorplan .jpg and take that to the builder anyway.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by lazide on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @10:53PM (#28056687)
People who want a house built want to build their house. Cookie cutter is for subdivisions and apartments, which those folks are often trying to escape.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by inglor_cz on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @02:06AM (#28057737)
Prefab houses are a thing and they aren't exactly rare. People escaping apartments usually complain about neighbors or lack of a garden, not about the floor plan.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by lazide on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @03:32AM (#28058288)
They are pretty rare, at least here in the US, and widely seen as undesirable or 2nd-3rd tier at best.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by inglor_cz on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @05:44AM (#28059080)
Where I live, they aren't that rare. People like the fact that they can be built fast.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by lazide on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @09:49PM (#28068826)
Near as I can tell from Googling around, they make up 2-6% if the US housing stock.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by inglor_cz on Thursday August 05, 2021 @03:34AM (#28070907)
This is one of the corporations that has been popular in my country for the last 10 years or so:

https://www.rdrymarov.cz/en/all-about-building

I do not know the percentage of the housing stock either, but housing stock here is very conservative. Many people still live in 100+ year old houses. New houses are being built, but the turnover rate is probably less than 1 per cent of all units a year right now, due to the vast bureaucracy.

But among the newly built houses, I see quite a lot of prefabricated houses out of wood. And the process of building them is rather quick. Once the lot is ready, a semi and a crane arrive and the house just grows in front of your eyes. Brick houses take a lot longer to build.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by oldsecondhand on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @02:13AM (#28057763)
In Hungary we had house templates since the socialism.

(following sites are in Hungarian)

https://kulcsrakesz.hu/tipushazak/

https://hellohaz.hu/tipushazak/

https://www.leier.hu/tipushazak

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by saberdancer on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @03:10AM (#28058148)
These are prefab houses. They are built in factory and then pieced together on site. What the poster was asking for was free/cheap plans to build a house, without support.

Kind of like open source design of a house.

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by oldsecondhand on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @05:49PM (#28066846)
Only the Leier one is prefab, the others are from protherm (clay) brick. And yes the planes there aren't free.

However there also exists a state level catalog of free (open source) templates as well:

https://www.oeny.hu/oeny/nmtk/mintatervek

Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by oldsecondhand on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @06:01PM (#28066989)
It seems it's only available for Hungarian citizens, as it needs Hungarian Electric Id to login. I'm not sure it qualifies for open source but it's free as in beer to Hungarian citizens with the right to adapt the plan to your demands.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by josefx on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @05:05AM (#28058819)
I wouldn't be surprised if the architects making the plans had catalogues with existing designs. I would however be surprised if they gave weeks/months of work to get them into compliance with non trivial legal requirements away for free.
Re:Where are the robotic bricklayers? by rualca on Thursday August 05, 2021 @02:46AM (#28070625)
> If you build a robot that only handles the main workflow and can't handle any of the exceptions, you're not automating anything; you're building a convenience tool. Basically, you're removing some of the labor part of the job, but still keeping the decision making part of the job for humans.

The key part is that, much like what humanity got from washing machines, automating some parts of the process is enough to have substantial savings in both cost and turnaround time, which also reflects in cost.

> If you build a robot that only handles the main workflow and can't handle any of the exceptions, you're not automating anything; you're building a convenience tool. Basically, you're removing some of the labor part of the job, but still keeping the decision making part of the job for humans.

I'm not sure this "all or nothing" train of thought makes sense. Shipping containers were a terribly simple solution that covered only a very specific aspect of a logistic chain but it was enough to revolutionize international trade. Washing machines only focus on one specific task but they revolutionize economical and even social aspects of society. Heck, a crane only lifts weights up or down but it radically simplifies operations to the point of being indispensable.

Why should the value added by a brick-laying robot be any different?