My older box, an i7 4790k, is still quite the performer. It, however, has no secure boot capabilities. No TPM socket on the motherboard, even.
This is what I run. It doesn't have firmware TPM according to Intel (https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/80807/i...), but the regular version does.
TPM >=1.2 is a hard requirement for Win11, and if your mobo doesn't have a socket for it, you're out in the cold.
So much for future-proofing.
If it's boot attestation someone will do it. This is probably to force enterprise vendors to move to devices that better support enterprise management, but yes, it drags us kicking and screaming along with it, at nontrivial personal expense.
https://twitter.com/dwizzzleMSFT/status/1408539533465985024
"Seems like you are assuming there is a specific security feature that defines 8th gen as the CPU floor. The floor is set for a range of quality, performance, support, and reliability reasons to ensure a great experience."
I have an i7-3930k on some Asus MB and it has Secure Boot but no TPM. There's a header for it, but it's empty.
My understanding is that the SB keys are known and verified by the BIOS, not by the TPM.
The TPM is a mechanism to verify that the BIOS (among other things) hasn't changed from a known state. If it hasn't, the TPM will then release some key, for example to automatically decrypt the root partition at boot. I've also seen it used as a store for SSH keys.
This is how the default setup of BitLocker works. On my machine, I have to switch BitLocker to password mode, or type in the key at each boot.
The early 00s were a fun time to be a Linux enthusiast.
I'm hopeful this spurs another surge of interest in better operating systems.
Only if you enjoyed configuring X11.
Only you enjoyed lifting weights."
For what it's worth, Microsoft research actively contribute to the research community regarding operating systems.
Is there a 3rd way out there that's better?
Oi! Mac oleee ole ole ole!
which is what?
But I was also smart about what distro I put on their systems. Endless OS or Solus, for example, are not prone to breakage on upgrade.
You've been using Linux for a long-time. You should know that Arch and Ubuntu are not the only two choices in this space.
You should also know that when manufacturers weren't threatened by Microsoft to do otherwise, there was a thriving ecosystem of SFF laptops, netbooks, that shipped delightful Linux distros that just worked. Moblin and Jolicloud were fantastic explorations of UI and OS design that might have been.
And here is our main Linux problem: its fragmentation, which is the natural byproduct of its freedom; everyone and his cat can develop or modify things, which translates in different distributions, which of course is a nightmare if you are a software producer with developers paid to port your software to Linux, and that's why a lot of commercial developers either choose one or max two distributions to support or ignore it at all.
One thing the Linux Foundation could do about that is mandating a minimum set of requirements that all Linux commercial software could count on, and all distributions should meet if they want a badge that guarantees the software will be 100% compatible out of the box, or that the host system can be adapted with extremely low effort. I'm not sure how much having Microsoft as Platinum Member would help with this, though.
What MS is doing here is forcing OEMs to package TPM 2.0, which will be a massive win for security.
The intel generation is seemingly a bit arbitrary, we'll see how that plays out. But again, it's not like people are being left behind - they have 4+ years of support left.
That's 7 years only, a lot of perfectly usable computers will be get rid of for no reason other than mild security benefit. Seems like they want to go in mobile direction forcing people to buy new hardware every 4 years.
You don't turn an Amiga 500 into a 600 by upgrading the OS.
Kickstart is in ROM you need 1.3 to play the old Amiga games, and 3.1 for the AmigaOS 3.X stuff.
Then again, I've stayed away from Windows 10 too.
Full-time Linux use is looking more and more pleasing...
This is a very significant win and critical to 'zero trust', which is now something the government is telling people to embrace.
The whole thing with security is silly. They said it about UEFI - and yet I run Linux on UEFI systems all the time. I also have systems with TPMs that run Linux. Works fine.
edit: People are downvoting you now, though I think your question is very reasonable and worth answering. Such is HN, though.
Not just any UEFI, UEFI with SecureBoot enabled specifically. On SecureBoot-enabled systems, you're booting a Microsoft-signed executable that chainloads Grub, which then loads Linux. This has given Microsoft a power they should not have: the power to refuse to sign future versions of that first executable.
I think the whole "MS-signed Grub" is a way by Ubuntu (and possibly others) to facilitate Linux installation by "non pros". And it's not that bad, I think.
I, personally, use Arch Linux and the installer isn't signed with anything. They have a "do your own signing" policy. I had to disable SecureBoot to install it, because I couldn't be bothered to create a new ISO, but then I registered my own keys to the UEFI and boot directly my own signed kernel [0], without using GRUB at all.
I did all this on multiple generation HP "enterprise" laptops and desktops and it worked without any issue. And those systems don't come with any sort of Linux support from HP.
---
[0] For the curious, this is EFISTUB combined with sbsign, that bundles the kernel image, initrd and CPU microcode in a single EFI binary and signs it. This is then booted directly by the UEFI, and you can even register multiple binaries and have them show up in the UEFI boot selection menu.
Pointing out the power that MS have is not FUD. If I suggested that there is a chance they would abuse it, that might be, but I didn't do that.
> or limited to specific systems with broken UEFI implementations.
A very quick Google search suggests there are quite a few of those, from mainstream vendors such as Dell and Lenovo.
> I, personally, use Arch Linux and the installer isn't signed with anything.
True, I oversimplified. The major distros use MS-signed shims, the rest mostly don't.
Also Ventoy needs to install user-defined keys into UEFI to make it work with Secure Boot.
So my assumption is that - at least on Thinkpads - you can add your own user-defined keys; the only Caudine Fork where a Microsoft blessed loader might be involved is the one used by the distro installer.
Or am I missing something
There is no reason to believe that this wasn't implemented thus far because of the high ethical standards Microsoft folks have historically adhered to and while we are to believe Microsoft has turned over a new leaf much of the current leadership was involved at the executive level in old bad Microsoft.
I thought we were trying to get away from identifiable fingerprints? This seems like the most unique one you could get.
I'm trying to learn about it, but all google wants to throw up these days is news articles on win11's requirement if it, marketing none-speak about "securing the platform" (which does to a layman, read similar to the other comments cry of lock-in), or dense whitepapers on threat models and cryptographic math.
Second, you're close but just a bit off. While the TPM has a secret internally, it wouldn't expose that - it would be used to generate other secrets, or to sign things, basically it's sort of like putting a crypto library into your device so that you can perform cryptographic operations without knowing the secrets involved. But yes, there's a seed that gets soldered into the device itself.
I use TPMs to ensure that no one can access our AWS environments from devices other than those we own, for example. I'm not really an expert on this sort of thing, though I do work in security professionally - hopefully I'm not butchering this. There are quite a few experts on the matter who comment on HN though, maybe one of them can speak more authoritatively on this.
edit: Actually, I misread maybe - you aren't off. The session cookie is tied to the TPM - either existing within it, or requiring re-validation via the TPM.
Separately from that, using the TPM to lock the session cookie to the device sounds useful.
Again, maybe someone more knowledgeable can explain more - I'm a consumer of TPMs, and I understand the concept, but I'm no expert.
That doesn't come with any particular privacy concerns however.
But web is really not so much my thing, so I'm now at the point where I'm probably going to start saying incorrect things.
So the question is how a particular protocol works, and whether a site can still identify you after you've deleted your session cookie. As far as I understand it, if you were wantonly using webauthn for all your session cookies, it would be relatively easy for a site to check if you're the same person as before.
Nope, the thing is that you ask the TPM to sign something with the key/secret, but the TPM will not allow you by design to exfiltrate the secret.
Session cookies (until this) only identify a session, not a person or a piece of hardware.
There are plenty of people who'd prefer sessions to be as loosely tied to identity as possible / as necessary.
TPM would be fine if 2 things were true:
1 Only the end user managed the secrets inside. Or at least they could, and without any penalty like "This device is insecure and so you can't use it for X". It's fine if there are default secrets and most people never change them. I'm not sure about this last bit but I think ideally also any factory default secrets should be erasable, no indellible unique serial number.
2 The interior implementation is fully open and disclosed. How the secrets are generated and managed. Not just a description and a promise, but an actual full set of public specs such that any manufacturer can produce a fuctioning device, or even I could out of other parts.
These things would allow the end user to be benefit from the mechanism, while leaving the end user in ultimate final control over their property and their identity and information. And it requires both. 1 is hot air without 2.
Any objections to this are automatically invalid, as they depend something they have no right to.
"I need to know that your computer is not doing something I don't want." is just fundamentally invalid.
Each identity you want to protect has its own key (so its’s not necessarily de-anonymizing) with physical access - pin, biometric verification - required for use.
It’s potentially very useful, although I 100% expect it to be backdoored by every geopolitical block.
This is a very significant win and critical to 'zero trust', which is now something the government is telling people to embrace.
If the government is really saying the equivalent of "trust us, but not the people you usually trust", that should a huge warning sign. The analogies to 1984 are disturbingly close.
Why is this a problem?
> If the government is really saying the equivalent of "trust us, but not the people you usually trust",
I don't understand what you're talking about here. There is no additional trust necessary.
No problem the users install their own browser.
Now we ask Microsoft to limit software that is signed by it effectively granted permission to run some software but not others. The alternatively browser is right out.
The user installs his own OS now we ask Dell to only allow it's computers to boot software that implements the same restrictions as Microsoft has agreed to.
So the user gets his own computer. Now we simply ask your bank or better yet your ISP not to connect to "insecure" devices that don't follow the standards described.
Now you need a substantial unlatched vulnerability to be able to resolve foobar.com
At it's root to make a users own device effectively restrict what they are allowed to do you need something difficult to defeat that you control and they do not.
At one point a us senator wanted this used to allow music labels to remotely destroy users computers if they believed that you were pirating music and every other restriction described has been implemented or discussed using on user devices belonging to users and most implemented.
I mean sure, if Microsoft decided that it wanted to do all of the things you said, and could convince all of the OEMs to help, and a bunch of services and ISPs or whatever, yes, that would suck. It's a totally fabricated hypothetical that would never play out, but sure.
Accessing the tpm doesn't mean what you think it means. You can't by design get the key out of the tpm nor necessarily control which keys are trusted by local software nor remote machines.
Control of what software is allowed to run is ultimately control over everything else because one kind of control gives you every other variety. The fact that you can disable secure boot or control which keys are trusted is a nicety that could be withdrawn next year along with your ability to run Linux.
Your vendor approved software can then implement any sort of restrictions it pleases and remotely attest to the efficacy of such restrictions.
Yes sir mr Amazon sir user id running trusted windows 11 and can't save or share this video as per your contract with Disney nor are they allowed to view any known pirate sites or sites that look like pirate sites according to our heuristics.
Alternatively. Please upgrade to a trusted windows 11 machine to view this content.
I know this... I've even repeatedly stated as such in this thread.
The rest of your post is just a silly hypothetical and frankly linking gnu is just discrediting.
The last sentence is particularly disappointing. The article's analysis is correct and not particularly complicated it stands on its own regardless of whatever bias you possess.
> allowing third parties a say in what software is run is literally the entire point of remote attestation
No it isn't.
We're clearly of two very different minds, there's no way we're finding common ground on this, and I've already done the work of explaining to many people what TPM technology is, so I feel like I've done my part.
[1]https://superuser.com/questions/1024111/adding-keys-to-secur...
???
And how is HP fucking their eufi up a Microsoft problem?
My claim was that there where computers where Linux only ran with Microsofts signature. I listed two systems (HP/Surface) where this is the case. Mainly because finding more is a pain, with support requests more likely to go off to nowhere instead of outright showing that no support for it exists.
One might make the case that Microsoft claimed it would require the ability to add alternative keys and conveniently failed to enforce that claim. If the goal was to blame Microsoft instead of just showing that Secure Boot can be easily used to lock users into one top down approved system.
There is absolutely at least some money to be made locking down machines and corporate America would sell our kidney's for a quarter if they could get away with it.
There would likely have been lawsuits against Microsoft if they had taken further steps on that road but that doesn't mean they won't be interested in boiling us all slowly now or in the future.
Without it how do you keep someone from running whatever they please and lying to the machine on the other side of the connection?
You have to trust every manufacturer of every other chip the same way also, and we have in fact found incredible breaches of that trust already many times over, and so it's too late to suggest it's a crazy thing to worry about.
The only saving grace with other chips is thst they are generic and at least you usually have your choice of some range of suppliers.
Will I be able to buy a laptop with an intentionally defective or fake tpm if I want, which will allow me to use modern software without trusting anyone?
Probably not. Probably plenty of Chinese manufacturers would be willing to produce them, like all the HDCP defeating hdmi switches, but probably software vendors will have some way to detect and invalidate them.
Why? What would a backdoor in the TPM do?
Another implementation could be used to tie DRM to hardware and then brick any hardware that is in license violation. Actually I can think of many scenarios that have a unique identifier on the hardware could be used/abused by corporations.
It should be noted that I lived through a time when corporations wanted this same setup on televisions. Each TV would have a unique chip that would give corporations control over what a person could watch, or even brick their TV. This was called the V-Chip. [0] And then of course, there was also the Clipper-Chip [1]. In terms of boiling frogs [2], TPM could be the base framework to slowly reintroduce the Clipper-Chip under a different name. i.e. used to boot-strap the pieces of code required to watch movies, buy things, browse the web, anything you can imagine.
[0] - https://www.popularmechanics.com/culture/tv/a19408909/20-yea...
I know some Linux distros already supporting enabled Secure Boot
edit: sorry I reread your comment that you already mentioned Linux can run with TPM
It's not that secure boot nor the TPM in any fashion keeps Linux from inherently working. It's that it enables the OEM to decide what software is allowed to boot on the computer and enforce this.
Microsoft typically gives OEMs a substantial break and the OEMs in turn sell most SKUs to 99% windows users and make only a small margin on those devices. A small discount on the cost of windows could make devices disproportionately more profitable and MS might be apt to see a percentage in offering such a discount to help lock out the competition.
They have in fact over the years engaged in far more unethical behavior including investing tens of millions in a "partner's" fraudulent lawsuit/pump and dump scheme against various Linux vendors bankrolling an entire list of felonies.
A great many people who don't know as much about security or have a rational approach to threat modelling, alas.
Intel stopped taking orders for such chips in April 2020
https://www.kitguru.net/components/cpu/dominic-moass/intel-d...
presumably you could expect devices to be in use until around 2027 with some sticking around until 2033
You could have bought a new laptop just 3 or even 2 years ago that will now be effectively obsolete in 4 years.
It's basically the Chromebook model, if you think of it -- and kind of radical of Microsoft to go that route when historically they've never really had stringent hardware requirements beyond the ones for OEMs to put those Windows Ready stickers on.
OK but the 2025 EOL wasn't a secret, it was announced alongside the Windows 10 release a decade ahead of time, as well as the extended support date of 2029.
So you had a decade of notice for EOL, and currently you have 4 years of notice that you'll need a TPM 2.0.
Maybe you think that's unreasonable, but I'm not so sure.
Virtually nobody buying a windows machine new today knows that their new machine has less than 4 years of life if it's 7th gen if they even know it's 7th gen.
There may still be machines in retail channels sold new next year since Intel merely stopped taking orders for said chips last year.
If it's EOL in 2025 you could have machines sold new that become unsupported in 3 years whereas the average lifespan of a PC is 6 years.
Why are you defending a metacorp planning on creating untold tons of toxic waste and destruction of millions of dollars of consumer value.
It ought to be illegal to sell a new cimp with less than 6 years of supported life from date of sale and buyers ought to be entitled to a partial refund if this promise isn't kept with the retail seller expecting to get their money back from the OEM who has a contract with suppliers like Microsoft not to do stupid shit like this to necessitate such refunds in the first place.
a) The intel stuff they're pushing is silly and should be loosened, and made part of their Windows 10 label OEM thing
b) TPM 2.0 will be a massive step forward for security, possibly the most significant since XP Service Pack 2, and I understand why Microsoft is getting aggressive about this.
Frankly, I think most people discussing this don't seem to know what the hell they're talking about. I'm really just presenting facts.
If you're asking about 1.2 vs 2.0, 2.0 makes considerable progress on the original specification both in terms of hardening of the TPM and its capabilities, allowing for it to be used in a much more broad set of authorization and authentication schemes.
If tomorrow every user had a TPM, and major services supported it, it would massively change the security landscape - I really can't stress enough that it eliminates some of the most widely exploited attacker techniques.
It's very uncharacteristic for Windows. Totally unprecedented, both for consumers with no tech knowledge and for the more technically inclined.
This is the first time in the history of Windows where a large portion of the install base will be (ostensibly) totally unable to upgrade.
When you buy a Mac or a Chromebook, you expect this sort of thing. On Windows, though, the expectation has been that windows would at least try to run on the oldest platform even remotely usable, e.g. Win10 (2015) would run on the old Core 2 processors (2006).
It's not the end of the world, it just feels a bit slimy. I'm not one to cry "planned obsolescence" but this restriction (if it's hard enforced and not "just" requirements for OEM licensing) is clearly an attempt to nudge people to buy new hardware. Which is fine. Just unexpected.
This is a link to a PC sold as new in box with a 7th generation intel cpu.
https://www.newegg.com/platinum-microsoft-surface-laptop-jkq...
The average PC is kept for 6 years meaning people would be expecting to use this new computer they just received say tomorrow as late as 2027. A minority of machined will remain in service as long as 12 years
Historically for most of recent history Linux and Windows both continued to run on machines that were previously supported for much longer than 4 years subject to the machines capability to keep up with present software. For example not all hardware released in the XP era had vista drivers but not only did most XP machines work OK with vista if they had sufficient ram to run but whereas there weren't many machines sold with XP after 2006 MS provided updates to XP for another 8 years.
This means that machines sold in 2006 were either in the OK to update to vista camp or in the OK to stick with XP camp until they were rendered permanently insecure after no less than 8 years of service with machine capable of running vista mostly being capable of upgrading to 7 as well for another 6 years of service.
Even when an old machine has been necessarily retired by the shifting winds of software it normally has been due to being incapable hardware or oems not providing the means to keep moving forward.
It is unprecedented in Microsoft or Linux land for such a monkey wrench to put put in the works. It seems likely that they will end up having to move the date back to allow a greater portion of machines sold including as we speak with incompatible hardware to age out.
For today programs and most games it's perfectly fine. War Thunder, Arma 3 and many other AAA runs max quality without issue; recently COD Warzone required to cut back clutter a little and that was it.
Synthetic benchmarks are almost irrelevant, we've been in good enough territory for a decade now.
http://techrights.org/2009/04/23/bill-gates-security-as-a-lo...
http://techrights.org/2009/06/25/security-as-a-lock-in-gates...
"Unfortunately, the attestation model in TCG's current design can equally effectively prevent the software on a computer from being changed deliberately by the computer owner with his or her full knowledge and consent. While the owner is always free to alter software, attestation adds a new risk: doing so may now eliminate the computer's ability to interoperate with other computers."
Alex Jones is associated with fake news and there is plenty of evidence about that; the same can't be said of Techrights, or at least I didn't find any such claims.
Or fail to.
By the time Windows 10 support is EOL (2025), those laptops and CPUs will be 8 years old. Right now, Monterey (successor of Big Sur (aka macOS 11) won't suppport MBP 2013. So when Catalina (aka macOS 10.15 / last macOS 10.x version) is EOL, which should happen next year, then MBP is only supported by Big Sur which is probably lasting one more year compared to Catalina. So in two years, the 8 year old MBP 2013 is no longer supported. While its already only receiving security and reliability fixes since that's what Big Sur and Catalina receive. All in all that's 10 years of support, quite massive (but then again there have been very little progress on the CPU performance between 2014 and 2020). You can still run some other OS on any of this hardware, such as Linux or ChomeOS.
It might not be officially supported but it works just fine. And with an SSD and 8GB of ram it actually runs pretty well.
And actually, MacOS runs on much older hardware with some simple patches. I also have a late-2008 unibody MacBook Pro that runs Catalina and receives latest security updates. Installing it was a tiny bit complicated but again, it works.
Two wrongs don't make a right and I expect better of Microsoft.
In fact why even go this far? Most people have no idea what an OS is. They just buy a "device" and use whatever software platform comes baked into the device and all of them are proprietary.
That's a non issue since most businesses upgrade their fleet every 3 years or so and are also very slow and reluctant when upgrading to newer versions of Windows (my last job switched from Win 7 to 10 only 4 years ago) so by the time they finish waiting out for Microsoft to iron out Windows 11, years down the line, their fleet will have been already replaced at least once.
Have you ever trained a few hundred or more 'non-tech' people (and I mean people who don't know what a file is) on a switch from Windows to something non-proprietary? How did that go for you, if so?
Somebody in China been buying stock of TPM chips en masse, and they are out of stock everywhere now.
With >12 months backlog for new chips, Win 11 will have to wait at least a year.
Ah, the benefits of globalization.
Lmao! I'll cite you whenever someone posts "but muh windowz receives updates for 20 years, why your shitdroid can't do the same?!!?".
https://linustechtips.com/topic/1351028-microsoft-makes-thin...
A security director now says that a blog post "clarifying the floor" is coming. But frankly, if this turns out to be a miscommunication, if you read those tweets Microsoft would have to be unbelievably incompetent in their use of words.