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Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by lifeisstillgood on Sunday May 16, 2021 @05:47AM (#27172498)
This is not just some pork-barrel politics of bribing a company to stay in a given country. S Korea will view this similarly to Taiwan - their chip fabs are existential to their country and state.

The USA is becoming more isolationist - it is nearly oil-independent, so it's signalling pulling out of the middle east (deals with Iran etc).

But it is not silicon-independent.

So S Korea and Taiwan are totally dependent on massive US troop deployments (25,000 !! US troops by the DMZ, a whole fleet patrolling the straits by Taiwan).

Ensuring chips flow in their country is a matter of national security - so the price is probably low.

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by AnthonyMouse on Sunday May 16, 2021 @11:47AM (#27174445)
> it is nearly oil-independent

This has never been how it works.

Oil is a global commodity. Even if the US produced as much as it consumes, if something happened in the middle east, the global price would go up. Because when the price went up in Europe or Asia, American oil producers would sell to the highest bidder, which would force American consumers to bid higher.

The real path to "independence" is to stop consuming oil, i.e. the electrification of transportation and heating. Which is starting but nowhere near finished.

Because electricity generated from solar/wind/nuclear/hydro is not a global commodity. Nothing that happens in Iran is going to change the cost of power generated at Hoover Dam.

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by mushufasa on Sunday May 16, 2021 @12:16PM (#27174663)
absolutely true. Since some people are questioning this in the comments: for those that want to do their own research, this is called 'The Law of One Price,' and it applies to other commodities where transportation and storage costs are low.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/law-one-price.asp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_one_price https://corporatefinanceinstitute.com/resources/knowledge/ec...

This has been well established in mainstream energy economics for ~50 years. Other disciplines seem to have trouble grokking the arguments. But ask any professional trader and they'll go with the economists on this one.

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by lumost on Sunday May 16, 2021 @03:31PM (#27176307)
This rule works in any environment where traders trade freely. Historically this has lead to catastrophes such as the Irish potato famine where the price of locally produced food exceeded what locals could pay. Leading to a country that had millions starving while exporting enough food to feed the country.

For this and various other temporary phenomenon governments set limits on market economies to prevent outcomes pathologically opposed to the wellbeing of residents. These limits include export controls and subsidies on food and other basic necessities. It absolutely makes sense for a country not to suddenly shift its income to the benefit of external commodity holders due to a sudden price jump in the commodity due to supply chain issues. Not doing so could destroy “higher value” “finished product” industries by making them uncompetitive.

If a large supply chain issue hits a critical necessity you would absolutely expect countries to start triggering their hoarding policies making the issue worse. An economic zone not planning for such a disruption to occur in the future is equivalent to a bet that such disruptions will never occur.

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by mopsi on Sunday May 16, 2021 @04:59PM (#27176975)
> If a large supply chain issue hits a critical necessity you would absolutely expect countries to start triggering their hoarding policies making the issue worse.

The PPE shortage of 2020 demonstrated very clearly how quickly free-market economics gets thrown overboard in a serious crisis.

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by totalZero on Monday May 17, 2021 @03:46AM (#27180957)
That is very theoretical. In practice, petroleum markets go to great pains to deal with transportation and storage. Look up "netback pricing" as a start.

Crude is not an identical commodity in the sense that is assumed by the Law Of One Price. There are some crude specifications that certain refineries prefer not to process, either due to sulfur or viscosity or other characteristics for which the refinery may be ill equipped.

https://www.mckinseyenergyinsights.com/resources/refinery-re...

Crude transportation takes time and money. Transportation prices rise in correlation to crude prices, but they matter if you are determining the relative marketability of different products sourced around the globe.

Arbitrage works worst when transactions are lossy, costly, delayed, and unique, as is the case in the petroleum market.

https://oilprice.com/oil-price-charts/

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by AnthonyMouse on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @12:58PM (#27197582)
> Arbitrage works worst when transactions are lossy, costly, delayed, and unique, as is the case in the petroleum market.

If you compare the petroleum market to the markets where those things are actually major factors, like the market for artwork, petroleum is an idealized commodity market. The fact that the price of transportation isn't literally zero and there are different well-defined grades of the commodity doesn't meaningfully change that. Transaction costs are never literally zero.

And what matters is the relative transaction costs. You have to ship the oil from the well to the refinery, but if the transportation to go 1500 miles from Texas to a refinery in New Jersey and the cost to go the same distance in the other direction to a refinery in Mexico are the same, there is no relative difference in transportation costs.

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by bpodgursky on Sunday May 16, 2021 @11:52AM (#27174488)
The US can, and absolutely will, restrict oil exports if prices start to skyrocket. Gas prices are an enormous electoral cudgel.

It wasn't even legal to export oil until 2015! https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-21-118#:~:text=With%20U.S.%....

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by AnthonyMouse on Sunday May 16, 2021 @12:06PM (#27174586)
> The US can, and absolutely will, restrict oil exports if prices start to skyrocket.

That would cost US oil producers billions of dollars -- more than the price increase would cost US consumers. Which would only happen if oil producers had dramatically less political influence than they do now, i.e. if we stopped producing so much oil. But then there would be no reason to do it.

> It wasn't even legal to export oil until 2015!

Crude oil. It was protectionism for US refineries, not the other thing. Which makes oil cost consumers more, because of the reduction in competition for refining.

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by lumost on Sunday May 16, 2021 @03:35PM (#27176340)
On a temporary basis this is true as the market is restricted. On a long term time horizon you would simply expect consolidation of global refineries into a new, more powerful monopoly.
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by AnthonyMouse on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @12:14PM (#27196795)
Your argument is that by having greater competition, the result would be a monopoly?
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by phkahler on Sunday May 16, 2021 @04:03PM (#27176560)
>> if something happened in the middle east, the global price would go up.

But if WW III starts with say China taking Taiwan and getting into stuff in the pacific, and Russia invading easter european countries, and maybe some other stuff... If the US were to fully engage in some kind of global conflict, they could ban oil exports and not have a supply problem.

This is the kind of thinking the military engages in to ensure their own supply chains won't be distrupted in a war. The ability to operate independently is important even if it's never used.

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by totalZero on Monday May 17, 2021 @03:06AM (#27180763)
Your comment assumes free-market pricing, but crude oil exports from the USA used to be unlawful (the ban was lifted in 2015) and they could presumably become unlawful again. There is no legal reason why the US government could not extend such a ban to include refined petroleum.

https://www.pillsburylaw.com/en/news-and-insights/us-repeals...

Also, several oil-producing nations have off-market domestic pricing for refined petroleum that is favorable versus the international spot price. Such prices won't naturally change when, say, the Strait of Hormuz closes. The IMF has been trying to force free-market pricing, as was the cause of the Ecuador protests in 2019.

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by jollybean on Sunday May 16, 2021 @03:07PM (#27176121)
It is how it works though. Supply and Demand are real, price spikes are real, Oil shock caused major problems for the US in the 1970's. Strategic reserves exist, and the amount of Oil is finite.

So it translates into a strategic issue, and, there will be direct involvement by the US if things get bad.

The US I think will stay in S. Korea until the situation changes, it's better to have chips, but that's not necessary.

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by lifeisstillgood on Sunday May 16, 2021 @06:28PM (#27177626)
I agree, and while not clear was part of my orignal thoughts about oil independence - it's about both supply and demand. The electrification of our societies in the next decades will reshape a lot of the world.
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by throwaway4good on Sunday May 16, 2021 @06:32AM (#27172669)
That is a very American perspective on things. Hundreds of thousands of US troops are stationed in Germany, Japan, Korea here 75 years after the end of the second world war. Do you think we would like them to stay for another decade? Our politicians may not be in a position to say so, but we would really like our land to be free of foreign troops. As would any other nation.
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by quickthrowman on Sunday May 16, 2021 @10:33AM (#27173979)
> Hundreds of thousands of US troops are stationed in Germany, Japan, Korea here 75 years after the end of the second world war. Do you think we would like them to stay for another decade?

Yes, I believe those countries would prefer if we stayed. Japan and S. Korea are particularly close to China and prefer we’re around to tamp down Chinese aggression. Germany is hoping we don’t withdraw our troops: https://m.dw.com/en/germany-welcomes-bid-to-halt-us-troop-wi...

Edit: This may offend some Europeans, but I think the world is better off with the US having bases in Europe and as a NATO member. Internecine squabbles in Europe don’t have a good track record over the past 100 or so years. One might even say the bases should be located where the trouble seems to start.

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by oblio on Sunday May 16, 2021 @03:51PM (#27176469)
Europeans who get offended don't need US bases. Those that need them want more US bases. For example Romania.
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by smhost on Sunday May 16, 2021 @01:46PM (#27175494)
> Japan and S. Korea are particularly close to China and prefer we’re around to tamp down Chinese aggression.

It's not that simple. American presence on the Korean peninsula makes reunification efforts overly complicated. By some estimates, reunification would grow the Korean economy to be the third largest in the world. It would also give Koreans access to Russian pipelines and a large border with China. When climate change opens up arctic trade routes and frozen arctic resources, Russia will be in the position to benefit the most (although Putin relies too heavily on his tsarist-Stalinist strain of conservatism to be able to exploit the economy as efficiently as liberals or perhaps Chinese communists might). As convenient as it is to have a powerful ally in the U.S., the U.S. is no longer in a position where it can dictate the behaviors of foreign nations as it once used to, especially regarding China. That's simply a reality that Koreans have had to come to terms with, despite Americans seeming to believe that things can just return to how they used to be half a century ago.

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by pm90 on Sunday May 16, 2021 @06:05PM (#27177457)
Korean unification is not impeded by the presence of US troops, but by the demands of the DPRK over the nature of what the unified state would look like; it seems unlikely that the current Regime would give up its power just like that.

Remember that US troops were stationed in Berlin/ West Germany prior to German unification (i'll admit its not the exact same situation since the East German economy was relatively much stronger pre-unification than the current DPRK economy).

If you're suggesting that we should just let the DPRK take over ROK... well, I don't think any of the ROK inhabitants would like that.

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by smhost on Sunday May 16, 2021 @08:23PM (#27178673)
> Korean unification is not impeded by the presence of US troops, but by the demands of the DPRK over the nature of what the unified state would look like.

The fact that the American military gets to decide what the Korean people want or what the reunification process will look like, is the single biggest factor hampering the peace process.

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by ericmay on Monday May 17, 2021 @11:25AM (#27184499)
But as you know, that's not actually what's happening. If South Korea wanted they could kick the U.S. out and let North Korea come take over their government and be reunited. The U.S. would be very concerned about that, of course, but the American military is not really preventing this from happening. U.S. forces are in Korea for beneficial reasons to the U.S. and the West, but also at the behest of South Korea. Realistically, many people (from Trumpers to left-wingers) want U.S. forces out, albeit usually for different reasons, whereas the Korean government would prefer they stay in comparison.

Now, with that being said is American military presence an issue for North Korea? Yea definitely. But if the U.S. withdrew troops it's not like Korea would all of a sudden be reunited. There's a laundry list of issues that would need to be resolved. American military presence is just North Korea's go-to excuse because they seek to divide the South Korean and American alliance.

If North Korea wanted to, they could just open the borders, stop starving their people, and all that jazz. Why do they need to do all of that crap? Because 25,000 Americans are in South Korea? Yea ok.

There are actually evil people in the world that don't live in America. Many of them live in North Korea, happily starving people, raping women, and executing people for no good reason.

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by smhost on Sunday May 30, 2021 @03:41PM (#27336017)
Americans are so fucking stupid.
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by phatfish on Sunday May 16, 2021 @12:33PM (#27174813)
Okinawa at least seems fed up with the occupation: https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20210515_13/

Europe would do much better by defending itself on its own terms rather than perpetually hiding behind the Stars and Stripes. Hopefully Trump made it clear how dangerous that is.

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by mempko on Sunday May 16, 2021 @11:12AM (#27174231)
I don't know, seems a lot of wars start from USA after WW2. The US is an empire and those bases are there to protect the empire, not the countries they sit in.
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by flyinglizard on Sunday May 16, 2021 @01:26PM (#27175307)
How do US bases in South Korea protect the US rather than, well, South Korea?
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by jollybean on Sunday May 16, 2021 @03:19PM (#27176205)
Pax Americana, or Pax Nato etc.

For the same reason the US pushed Saddam out of Kuwait.

The 'world order' we grew up with seems like it's strong but it's not, it's very fragile.

US protection of S. Korea / Japan / Europe is like 'propping up key dominoes' in the chain.

Wars break out sometimes fairly easily, having bullwarks ostensibly keeps them from falling down.

Obviously there are many costs and risks.

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by KptMarchewa on Sunday May 16, 2021 @01:41PM (#27175458)
US interests, not US land.
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by AYBABTME on Sunday May 16, 2021 @08:17AM (#27173161)
I'm in Korea and I've yet to meet someone who actually wants the US troops out. I've met people vaguely annoyed with drunken US soldiers and stuff like that, but as far as annecdata goes, I think Korea wants US troops.
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by freeflight on Sunday May 16, 2021 @09:33AM (#27173595)
> I'm in Korea and I've yet to meet someone who actually wants the US troops out.

That's because voicing such opinions, particularly to foreign strangers, is so far outside the established Overton window that South Koreans have been jailed for voicing them while working in the wrong occupation [0].

Case in point: Just look at the history of the No Gun Ri massacre during the Korea war [1], to this day neither the US nor South Korean government have really fully acknowledged or taken responsibility for what happened there, and just like with similar massacres of that kind: For the longest time survivors were persecuted for speaking out about what happened [2]. Decades of that breeds a culture of silent compliance.

There's also that whole politeness aspect: If you are a American, then no Japanese, Korean, or many Asian people in general will have small talk with you by opening a can of worms like "Your soldiers are/did occupying/bomb my country!", that would just be considered a very inappropriate thing to do.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Act_(South_K...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Gun_Ri_massacre

[2] https://thediplomat.com/2014/08/south-koreas-own-history-pro...

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by dboat on Sunday May 16, 2021 @10:44AM (#27174054)
It is -just- because voicing those opinions is dangerous though? My understanding is that Chinese aggression is a major regional concern, even for average people.
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by scaramanga on Sunday May 16, 2021 @11:55AM (#27174508)
So is the resurgence of fascism in Japan and Japan's re-armament. Those are big concerns in Korea, definitely bigger threat than North Korea, and probably a bigger threat than China.
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by scaramanga on Sunday May 16, 2021 @12:13PM (#27174639)
They have overwhelmingly voted for a president on a platform of signing a peace treaty with North Korea. The US veto over South Korean foreign policy options, the presence of US troops (and, more importantly, their refusal to transfer OPCON over the Korean military despite decades of promises) has been a major impediment to exercising the democratic will of the South Korean body politic.

The problem is that Korea is a vassal state and there is no path to expelling occupying troops without conflict, which nobody wants.

If you ask more specific and nuanced questions which don't jump to such drastic solutions, then you are quite likely to get different responses. eg. "Should the Korean government command the Korean army?" or "Should Korean voters be able to decide on the relationship between ROK and DRPK?" / "What role should occupying powers (eg. Japan, China, US) play in that?" or "What should be done about US officials guilty of atrocities (eg. Gwangju massacre) and other human rights offences (there's quite a lot of them) in South Korea?"

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by solveit on Sunday May 16, 2021 @08:17AM (#27173159)
As a Korean, I would very much like US troops to stay for another decade and more. I'm not sure why everyone's talking about Russia, but my worries are firmly fixated around China.
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by csomar on Sunday May 16, 2021 @06:55AM (#27172772)
I don't think so.

> German Chancellor opposes US troop withdrawal plan

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/german-chancellor-opposes-us...

Without having a powerful army, Europe is just an order from being invaded by Russia.

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by _delirium on Sunday May 16, 2021 @11:15AM (#27174246)
My read on Germany specifically is that it's less about Russian invasion worries and more about domestic economic politics. The bases are important economically to the towns/regions they're in, and closing them is unpopular in those areas, similar to how choosing when/if to close US bases in the US is controversial (https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/R45705.html).
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by throw0101a on Sunday May 16, 2021 @12:07PM (#27174598)
Going by military spending, any single EU country spends less than Russia, but 2+ spend more:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_...

Of course raw numbers don't tell the whole story:

* https://www.defensenews.com/opinion/commentary/2019/05/03/ru...

* https://warontherocks.com/2019/12/why-russian-military-expen...

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by NicoJuicy on Sunday May 16, 2021 @08:08AM (#27173115)
You are severely overestimating Russia's army and underestimating Europe's.

Russia isn't even in the same league of spending power and the Soviet army of the past was way stronger.

While Russia spends a lot of money on their army ( % wise), they don't have the resources to renew it. What's left is a lot of old gear and some renewed one.

As a counter perspective, Ukraine would have made it's naval fleet completely unusable, as it needs to pass that country for getting anywhere.

And Europe ( in the last 30 years) came within missile range of Moscow, since the fall of the USSR.

The propaganda of Russia is mostly power related, but they are certainly not as powerful as they seem. And the cards don't look that great too.

A lot of their resources depend on oil/gas purchases from Europe and Europe is investing in alternative sources, while Russia can't raise the prices for their citizens/neighboring countries.

Eg. The pipeline Russia mostly invested in to Germany has been halted, because of Alexei Navalny: https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/gas-pipeline-nord...

And last but not least, as a belgian citizen, i appreciate US presence and have no desire for foreign troops to withdraw. We all share ( mostly) the same/similar culture and perception.

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by vasac on Sunday May 16, 2021 @06:35PM (#27177683)
Russia buys most of their arms from their own industry so while their military budget in $ is far smaller than the US they get more bang for the buck (or in their case ruble). So while they nominally spend ~$60B per year when accounted for PPP (purchasing power parity) that looks more like equivalent of $150B (or $200). Things are obviously more complex than this but it's obvious that while they spend similar $ amount as UK or France they maintain significantly larger military.

> As a counter perspective, Ukraine would have made it's naval fleet completely unusable, as it needs to pass that country for getting anywhere.

They had open access to the Black Sea even without Crimea, I'm not sure how Ukraine could block them then or now?

btw pipeline isn't halted (so far): https://www.spglobal.com/platts/en/market-insights/latest-ne...

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by NicoJuicy on Monday May 17, 2021 @06:49AM (#27182059)
Oh indeed, I didn't saw reports about it being continued. Thanks

For why Ukraine is important, i once read this: https://www.ft.com/content/1f749b24-9f8c-11e3-b6c7-00144feab...

Which was what influenced my judgement about Ukraine and Russia's fleet.

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by ad404b8a372f2b9 on Sunday May 16, 2021 @10:18AM (#27173869)
You can't seriously believe Europe is defenseless without America. Germany, the UK and France are among the most powerful militaries in the world, with economies that trump Russia, and enough nuclear weapons to flatten it a hundred times over.
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by renw0rp on Sunday May 16, 2021 @11:07AM (#27174204)
The countries you mentioned are as prepared for war as was France in 1939/1940
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by oblio on Sunday May 16, 2021 @03:11PM (#27176152)
France was prepared, they just messed up the strategy. But they had the equipment, the manpower, the army was mobilized entirely after 1939, they had battle plans, etc.
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by rjsw on Sunday May 16, 2021 @11:31AM (#27174320)
Germany doesn't have a powerful military or its own nuclear weapons.
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by rblatz on Sunday May 16, 2021 @11:37AM (#27174366)
And add up all their militaries and they are still dwarfed by the US military.
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by konschubert on Sunday May 16, 2021 @11:34AM (#27174340)
The German military has issues ordering guns that shoot straight, I doubt they can project any kind of deterrence against, say, nuclear threats.
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by orbifold on Sunday May 16, 2021 @07:30AM (#27172931)
Sure because Russia has a long history of attacking Western Europe unprovoked. Napoleon, WW1, UK US intervention in the Revolution, Polish Invasion and WW2 clearly had Russia as an Aggressor.
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by Paradigma11 on Sunday May 16, 2021 @07:43AM (#27172988)
Or more recently:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague_Spring

or those russian soldiers on holiday in the ukraine.

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by paganel on Sunday May 16, 2021 @10:34AM (#27173982)
In all fairness OP was mentioning Western Europe. One could argue about the validity of ideologically partitioning Europe into an Eastern and Western part (I know I'm also guilty of that) but that's another discussion.
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by kingsuper20 on Sunday May 16, 2021 @10:43AM (#27174052)
I'd say that was done fairly organically given the split between ethnicities and Orthodox vs. Catholic churches. Ukraine seems to straddle one of those boundaries.
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by eloff on Sunday May 16, 2021 @01:09PM (#27175151)
I think you don't know your Russian history. That territory has usually been controlled by an aggressive, expansionist regime. How did you think it got to be the largest country on earth?

It's very strongly related to the geography of the region.

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by frant-hartm on Sunday May 16, 2021 @07:58AM (#27173064)
In WW2 Russia actually was one of the aggressors.
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by orbifold on Sunday May 16, 2021 @05:35PM (#27177209)
Well Poland had the brilliant idea of attacking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish–Soviet_War, right after the end of WW1, so I am sure there was no love between them.
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by vasac on Sunday May 16, 2021 @09:25AM (#27173553)
Was Poland too?
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by lumost on Sunday May 16, 2021 @10:10AM (#27173837)
Russia invaded Poland in coordination with Germany as part of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact at the start of the war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pac...

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by vasac on Sunday May 16, 2021 @06:11PM (#27177513)
I wasn't asking who was invaded by Russia but whether Poland was aggressor too?

And here's the answer:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Czechoslovak_bo...

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by quickthrowman on Sunday May 16, 2021 @10:35AM (#27173998)
I think you may need to revisit WW2 history, Poland was invaded by the USSR and Germany as part of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by vasac on Sunday May 16, 2021 @06:06PM (#27177470)
Nope, it's you who needs to revisit WW2 history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Czechoslovak_bo...
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by kingsuper20 on Sunday May 16, 2021 @10:41AM (#27174036)
Hey, it's complicated (as usual).

Check out all of the minor wars Poland was involved in between 1919 and 1938.

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by kwere on Sunday May 16, 2021 @07:10AM (#27172845)
thats silly
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by tw04 on Sunday May 16, 2021 @10:40AM (#27174028)
And you think if the US were completely isolationist that China wouldn't assist North Korea in "unifying" the peninsula?

I wouldn't want to bet my freedom on that.

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by FooBarWidget on Sunday May 16, 2021 @11:25AM (#27174293)
And just why would they do that? The only reason China supported North Korea historically is because they don't want US troops at their doorstep.
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by oblio on Sunday May 16, 2021 @03:54PM (#27176487)
Puppet states, influence, a thorn in the Japanese side. Why would China need or want Tibet or Xinjiang? Remote regions without Han populations.
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by artificial on Sunday May 16, 2021 @04:32PM (#27176784)
I’d say Tibet is for water. The Chinese built many dams and several big rivers which flow through several countries originate there.
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by oblio on Sunday May 16, 2021 @05:05PM (#27177006)
Well, not just water. Tibet is a high plateau overlooking the Chinese plains. It's an obvious entry point for a land invasion into the Chinese heartland. Xinjiang is a mountainous and desert region with a similar role.

I know why they're doing it, it's just cynical for the locals.

Similar story for Korea, if you're a great power, wouldn't you move the possible battle like a few hundreds of kilometers away from your capital? You would.

It would still suck for the locals.

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by FooBarWidget on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @06:12AM (#27192912)
Are you willing to bet on this?
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by oblio on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @10:43AM (#27195243)
Possibly, but why?
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by FooBarWidget on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @10:22AM (#27209026)
Because it's easy to think cynically when nothing is at stake, when you don't have skin in the game. I bet $1000 that China won't help North Korea to invade South Korea. Bet ends 2030. You in?
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by oblio on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @03:15PM (#27213086)
I would be, but there's one condition: the US pulls out of any military alliance/support for South Korea.

Chine will obviously not risk another Korean War, there's nothing for them to gain. If South Korea loses US support, yup, I'll take that bet in a heartbeat.

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by FooBarWidget on Saturday May 22, 2021 @05:10AM (#27244874)
Deal.
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by mlindner on Sunday May 16, 2021 @09:20AM (#27173526)
I would not speak for Japan. Most Japanese I've met and talked to think that on balance having the US troops there is MUCH better than the alternative. The only Japanese I'm aware of where a significant minority are against the US presence is in Okinawa where US bases occupy double digit percentages of the available land.
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by freeflight on Sunday May 16, 2021 @09:38AM (#27173628)
> The only Japanese I'm aware of where a significant minority are against the US presence is in Okinawa where US bases occupy double digit percentages of the available land.

"Only" makes it sound weird considering it's in major parts these Okinawan's that have to pay the burden for the massive US presence [0].

While for most mainland Japanese it's as simple as "It doesn't affect me personally, it's an advantage for the whole nation, why not?"

[0] https://apjjf.org/2018/03/Mitchell.html

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by mlindner on Sunday May 16, 2021 @10:04AM (#27173788)
Okinawa isn't the only US military presence in Japan. It's not even where the US Navy has it's fleet stationed out of.

And not to diminish it, but the rate in your article is quite small considering the populations involved. I wouldn't be surprised if the assault rates by military personnel stationed in the US was much different.

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by jollybean on Sunday May 16, 2021 @03:12PM (#27176159)
" but we would really like our land to be free of foreign troops. "

You are probably not in the majority there.

Do you want the Russians grabbing larger of E. Europe and seeing how far they can go with it?

At the end of the cold war it seemed as though maybe NATO might be past it's usefulness, but after a resurgent Russia, it seems more like it's going to take another 70-100 years probably.

Also, the 'rest of the world' is a more chaotic place, and it bodes well for Europeans to be playing well with American forces.

North Africa is a hot-spot and Europe (except UK/France in very limited form) doesn't have the ability to project power, even in the Libya intervention, it was backed by US AWACS, drones, and organization. It was kind of a folly, but there's no doubt that those interventions could be much more necessary in the future.

Politicians know this and there's no real popular urgency for the Americans to leave.

Both Norway and Sweden, the later a non-NATO country, are going more coordination with the Americans, not less.

Such will be the situation for a few decades.

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by throwaway21_ on Sunday May 16, 2021 @06:51PM (#27177858)
Great work in the Libya guys - 10 years later country is still at war, 10s of thousands dead (and counting), people are worse in every possible way than during Gadaffi rule... Can't wait to see more similar interventions in the future.
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by bpodgursky on Sunday May 16, 2021 @05:40PM (#27177241)
These comments always confuse me, because the US troops in Germany, Japan and Korea are there entirely at the pleasure of the local government.

If Germany ordered US troops out, they would leave. Even Iraq, barely a functioning country, did this, and the US left. But Germany, Japan and South Korea have not asked.

And you might say, "well, the US is functionally bribing them with the economic boost of stationing troops there". And... OK? That's the tradeoff. Germany is a wealthy country, and the populace can vote and make choices themselves.

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by konschubert on Sunday May 16, 2021 @11:32AM (#27174329)
Most Germans who understand geopolitics are very happy that American troops are stationed in the country.
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by baybal2 on Sunday May 16, 2021 @05:58AM (#27172546)
> it is nearly oil-independent,

Like as if it wasn't for the entire century. USA has ennormous, and largely unexplored oil reserves.

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by mschuster91 on Sunday May 16, 2021 @06:13AM (#27172593)
They're unexplored for a reason. Fracking is immensely damaging to the ecosystem.

Additionally, the US won't ever need to touch these again if it manages to reduce its reliance on fossil fuels.

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by will4274 on Sunday May 16, 2021 @01:31PM (#27175355)
> Fracking is immensely damaging to the ecosystem.

Not really. Energy is a dirty business, and also one filled with politics and propoganda. Fracking, much like nuclear, was targeted mostly for political, not technical reasons. It's damaging, but less so than coal and not all that much more than vanilla drilling and pipelines in general.

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by baybal2 on Sunday May 16, 2021 @01:56PM (#27175594)
Worth to mention that US reserves are enormous even without fracking. Tons of oil, and gas everywhere.
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by mensetmanusman on Sunday May 16, 2021 @09:58AM (#27173751)
It’s not as damaging as coal, which is fortunate for the clean energy transition.

Solar is now the cheapest assuming we get grid scale storage(or, more likely, store excess solar as hydrogen fuel).

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by lazide on Sunday May 16, 2021 @05:10PM (#27177034)
Most solar is now produced in China, at 71%+ as of 2019 (and only grown since then I imagine). If we’re talking national security, that is a concern too.
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by mensetmanusman on Monday May 17, 2021 @12:39PM (#27185384)
These panels might last 30 years, which is great! Also gives us time to consider strategies…
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by ithkuil on Sunday May 16, 2021 @06:00AM (#27172559)
Did anybody do the math of whether it's more cost effective to pay for all that military to ensure you get cheap silicon made in countries with cheaper labor that in the US rather than just subsidizing the production of semiconductors domestically?
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by inglor_cz on Sunday May 16, 2021 @06:39AM (#27172701)
The picture of silicon industry that you paint is very far from reality. Neither Taiwan nor South Korea are third world countries and baking top chips isn't the same as sewing cotton T-shirts or gathering strawberries under the scorching sun. Instead of "cheaper labor", you need top talent and very high quality equipment. That top talent collects very good salaries.

If chip production was just a matter of money, both China and the U.S. would rule the roost. The real bottleneck is talented and loyal engineers.

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by baybal2 on Sunday May 16, 2021 @06:43AM (#27172722)
> That top talent collects very good salaries.

Semiconductor engineers salaries in Taiwan could've been as low as $26k-$28k USD back in 2007-2009. Multi-year long PhD "interships" can be unpaid, or completely minimally so.

A chance for an average semi process engineer graduate to survive to doing real RnD was close to 80-100 to 1.

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by inglor_cz on Sunday May 16, 2021 @06:47AM (#27172736)
I wonder what the situation looks like today. Probably better, because losing senior engineers in a situation when the field has shrunk to Samsung, TSMC and Intel, would be a huge pain.
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by baybal2 on Sunday May 16, 2021 @06:48AM (#27172742)
TSMC's salaries have doubled, but that only means that an engineer with 5-7 years experience gets $43k-$58k.

The rest of the industry is still around $34k-$45k

That lags behind the wage growth in the rest of Taiwan.

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by headmelted on Sunday May 16, 2021 @07:57AM (#27173054)
Not challenging this but do you have a link?

If that’s the case that’s really surprising given how significant TSMC is to Taiwan politically.

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by baybal2 on Sunday May 16, 2021 @09:15AM (#27173503)
For 12-10 year old ones, my own contacts. For what's recent more from local chit chat.
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by logicchains on Sunday May 16, 2021 @10:02AM (#27173775)
The mainland is taking advantage of this to get skilled engineers, as mainland Chinese tech salaries are closer to those in the US. So much so that Taiwan has banned recruiting for mainland jobs: https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Tech/Semiconductors/Taiwan-...
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by lifeisstillgood on Sunday May 16, 2021 @06:38AM (#27172696)
The math is complicated

- How much military spending is really what other Western countries would call welfare - not only do you pay the US recruits, they get pensions, they and their families get healthcare etc etc.

- The payback of being the worlds only superpower has been enormous anyway. This is probably a marginal cost.

- It's not entirely clear that building a fab is like dropping a supermarket into place. Whilst in operation they are lights out I sincerely doubt they can be easily replicated - at the very least you will need to just kidnap the whole middle management layer of TSMC and move them to Texas. Which is more or less the current negotiations:-)

In short, yeah the US (and EU) should spend a fortune to build out their own internal chip capacity. Just as we should have done it for oil or electric batteries or ... but we just don't. China however has. Something democracy is good at. Somethings it ain't.

We should fix that :-)

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by baybal2 on Sunday May 16, 2021 @06:13AM (#27172598)
Modern fabs are nearly completely lights out.

There are more people sitting in offices there than on the floor.

I fact there is a huge oversupply of semiconductor engineers globally because of fabs becoming less, and less labour intensive.

Companies take a big effort to reduce the number of people on the floor futher, but now not so much for labour cost readon, but security. The chance of somebody who shouldn't really be on the floor acidentally pressing the wrong button, and sending $10M worth of wafers down the drain is the risk they don't want to take.

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by ithkuil on Sunday May 16, 2021 @06:22AM (#27172627)
Two related questions:

1. Would it thus cost the same to operate such a fab in the US?

2. Why did the US outsourced the semiconductor fabrication in the first place? Was it more labour intensive in the past?

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by baybal2 on Sunday May 16, 2021 @06:29AM (#27172650)
1. Labour-wise probably 3-4 times the Taiwan, but labour cost of fabs is microscopic in comparison to everything else.

Taiwan does not have dramatically lower taxes than US, but there is something particular to how working capital is accounted which will make for a double digit difference in the in TW vs. US.

Third is supplies. Even before the semi moving to Asia, US fabs had to import a big portion of their supplies.

2. > Why did the US outsourced the semiconductor fabrication in the first place

Why did US outsource almost everything, even when it makes no sense?

It simply tough, tedious, problematic doing business in the US.

I wrote about it many times before here.

You mind your own business, very much literally. Few month down the line some trouble comes: lawsuit, taxmen, utilities, creditors, SEC, city hall, suppliers, random activists, labour union... pick any.

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by imtringued on Sunday May 16, 2021 @06:53AM (#27172762)
>1. Labour-wise probably 3-4 times the Taiwan, but labour cost of fabs is microscopic in comparison to everything else.

Building a fab requires labor, a lot of it.

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by baybal2 on Sunday May 16, 2021 @06:57AM (#27172782)
There are only 2-3 construction companies globally who build factories as complex as modern semi fabs.

Imagine, where they get their workers? They import them all from their home countries.

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by ithkuil on Sunday May 16, 2021 @07:07AM (#27172821)
What are their home countries? Sorry I could do my own research, but since you made a comment that implied you had a piece of information at hand, I feel I may just get it easier this way.
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by baybal2 on Sunday May 16, 2021 @07:45AM (#27173001)
Exyte (Germany) was a big one. I myself haven't been up to date with news in the industry for around 10 years since I abandoned all attempts to enter the industry.
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by inglor_cz on Sunday May 16, 2021 @06:42AM (#27172719)
As for 2), it is less about outsourcing and more about gradual loss of competitiveness. The scientific and technological development between 2000 and 2020 led to a lot of corporations, not just in the U.S., falling out of the race because they could not keep up the pace. Nowadays, only Samsung and TSMC are left, with Intel lagging behind, but still not completely out.

Similar consolidations have happened in the past and in other industrial fields. This time, two of the three surviving champions are simply not American.

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by lumost on Sunday May 16, 2021 @11:55AM (#27174510)
This is an interesting take, I'd be curious how it applies to other industries. Is outsourcing an artifact of loss of technical/execution competence required to be competitive?
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by throwaway_45 on Sunday May 16, 2021 @12:49PM (#27174950)
In general its a dirty process. There are a lot of toxic chemicals involved. People might get sick. Margins aren't as good as software and its very capital intensive so investors would rather invest in software. Lots of booms and bust in the semiconductor industry.
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by irjustin on Sunday May 16, 2021 @06:25AM (#27172636)
As the US gets more than "cheap labor" for its troop deployments.

Very large parts of it is protecting democracy. Whether you believe that's worth protecting is a different question, but it's left over from cold war & proxy wars against Russia in both Vietnam and Korea.

This is still once way the US exerts its presence against China. Maybe futile, but it is more than just "cheap labor".

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by ithkuil on Sunday May 16, 2021 @11:42AM (#27174397)
Honestly curious about why so many downvotes. It's a honest question. Perhaps you all know the answer and think it's a stupid question not worth answering it. If so please ignore it (other people have answered).
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by throwawaysea on Sunday May 16, 2021 @01:55PM (#27175588)
With that in mind I feel it is time for the US to take a much more aggressive stance in defending Taiwan. They should simply figure out a way for it to be an autonomous territory of the US. Hong Kong as well, since China is not following the requirements of the agreement forged some 20 years ago - we might as well consider those bill and void and forge an agreement with the HK government to bring them into the US fold formally. This would mean security for those territories and mutual economic prosperity.
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by dzonga on Sunday May 16, 2021 @02:42PM (#27175959)
that literally means war. I'm in Taiwan currently though I'm not Taiwanase or of chinese descent. Taiwan is a mono-ethnic country, where a good % of the population believe it or not identify with the mainland.

Culturally their are similar, speak the same language. Mainland is Taiwan's biggest trading partner. & before the Japs was Chinese territory. and China has an iron will to bring Taiwan into the fold. What would the US gain again from making Taiwan it's territory - war and more debt.

Chip fabs can easily be built in the US on a 3 year timeline. Whereas that same 3 year timeline, maybe the PRC would've taken Taiwan.

Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by throwawaysea on Sunday May 16, 2021 @02:48PM (#27176000)
I think the free world owes Taiwan that degree of protection of their sovereignty. It wouldn’t likely result in war - China wouldn’t risk that, since it is as much a burden to them as it would be to the US. This is just a big game of chicken, and on one side is the US and all its allies (NATO) after all. The US would gain a foothold in the region politically and militarily, and can rest assured that the capacity for semiconductor manufacturing, a specialized capability, doesn’t fall into the hands of mainland China.
Re:Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B by otoburb on Sunday May 16, 2021 @03:26PM (#27176265)
>>I think the free world owes Taiwan that degree of protection of their sovereignty.

The rest of the free world would likely need to take the first step of officially recognizing Taiwan as a sovereign country[1] before deciding to officially commit to protecting Taiwan.

[1] https://worldpopulationreview.com/en/country-rankings/countr...