News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by mssundaram on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @03:02AM (#25206924)
What surprises me is that when these propaganda programs become more well known, people are still hesitant to believe that in some form they are still happening, we just only might find out in another 30 years. This article even mentions pressuring the New York Times, a newspaper most people would say is very authoritative and trustworthy (whether it is or not). What is being published now that was coerced?
Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by JacKTrocinskI on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @04:19AM (#25207354)
Unfortunately the U.S. has done a really good job at convincing it’s citizens that there is freedom of the press in their country even though time and time again we’ve seen the mass media in the U.S. severely comprised by corporate interests and/or politics. When is the last time you’ve turned on the news and seen a balanced view given on Russia-U.S. relations? In the last three years the New York Times hasn’t reported a single positive story on Russia or written an unbiased one that would present a counterviewpoint. If we jump back two decades ago the American people were lead to believe that weapons of mass destruction were present in Afghanistan and Iraq and it was the cornerstone of the war initiative there. The U.S. ended up violating not only international law and the sovereignty of the nations of Iraq and Afghanistan but killing thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of innocent people there on a baseless claim. Today we see the same propaganda being used against countries like Iran, Russia and China. Countries in attempt to defend themselves from U.S. aggression are building nuclear arsenals and the world has become a much more dangerous place to live in as a result. In my opinion this all goes back to freedom of the press, or lack of it.
Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by TeMPOraL on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @08:24AM (#25208930)
> Unfortunately the U.S. has done a really good job at convincing it’s citizens that there is freedom of the press in their country even though time and time again we’ve seen the mass media in the U.S. severely comprised by corporate interests and/or politics.

I think the trick isn't in making people believe the press is free - the trick is in misleading people about what it means.

The press is mostly free in the US, meaning the government isn't going to explicitly censor or micromanage it. By the same token, the press is also free to do whatever it wants - like, optimize for profits, like a good private sector entity does. Some good ways for an ad-funded news publisher to optimize profits are:

- writing things that get people to read/watch the content (and thus, ads), regardless of whether these things are true, accurate, or appropriate in a civilized society;

- getting paid for delivering more ads, e.g. as sponsored (officially or not) content;

- ensuring ongoing access to freshest news by not burning the sources, particularly government or corporate ones, by e.g. publishing things said sources don't want to see published

This way, a fully free press walks into censorship and bias anyway, of its own volition[0].

Freedom of press is important, but I think we talk too much about ideas and principles, and too little about actual system dynamics in play.

--

[0] - Well, as much volition as you can have in a highly competitive industry, where if you don't sacrifice your values, your competitor will, and then you'll run out of money and die.

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by bxk1 on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @09:28AM (#25209534)
Chomsky did a lot of work to show that it's not optimizing for profits or some subconscious biases of people influencing press, but very deliberate power structure pushing specific censorship, propaganda, it's all very conscious effort. Private ownership here helps a lot of course, not because of profits, but because owners are able to push policies and narratives top down.
Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by TeMPOraL on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @02:00PM (#25212907)
I don't buy conscious effort all that much. It's reassuring to believe there are some evil actors in control over the narrative. Such people could be identified, and eventually removed from their positions of influence. It's much scarier, and much closer to the truth, that we're dealing with a system of incentives that's stronger than any individual or group. We're not being led astray by the few with an agenda; we're all just flowing down the optimization gradient.
Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by goldcountry on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @11:41AM (#25211094)
This guy read Manufacturing Consent by Noam Chomsky
Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by TeMPOraL on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @02:00PM (#25212913)
Actually I haven't, though I probably have ingested his ideas by osmosis at this point.
Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by scoot_718 on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @07:50AM (#25208662)
> when was the last time you've [...] seen a balanced view given on Russia-U.S. relations?

All the time. It's fucked and Russia fucked it.

The wonderful thing about being in a free nation is the access to the news of other countries. It helps you see which ones are the outliers. It's not yours.

> In the last three years the New York Times hasn’t reported a single positive story on Russia

Gee, I wonder why that might be? Nobody is going to write anything positive when a nation has expelled independent journalists, assassinated people in foreign nations, caused wars in others, been aggressively attacking fishing vessels, attempted assassinations of their own politicans, attacking their own citizens for their religion.

Who is going to care about human interest stories from such a nation?

What would be a positive story you'd like to see printed in that time frame? Name one.

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by wazoox on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @11:18AM (#25210796)
But do you realize that everything you're damning Russia for, the US is doing exactly the same right now ? Case in point: Assange persecution, war in Afghanistan, Irak, Libya; "targeted assassination" of various people, more recently an Iranian general, waged coups around the world, most recently Bolivia, Brazil, etc. "Who is going to care about human interest stories from such a nation"?

Man it's time that you grow up out of "manifest destiny".

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by JacKTrocinskI on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @12:27PM (#25211707)
Russian hostility only really began in 2008, prior to that Russia really tried to have good relations with the U.S. They even wanted to join NATO and offered to help in Iraq. It's the U.S. that soured the relations, not Russia.

EDIT: I am distinguishing Russia from the Soviet Union here.

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by dash2 on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @08:16AM (#25208870)
Actually, you will do much better at understanding Russia if you understand all of it, including the positive sides. In fact, here, go read the Moscow Times:

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/

They're seriously critical of the government, but they don't make the mistake of thinking all there is to report is misery.

Context: I'm not pro-Russia, I think Putin is a wholesale scumbag, for all their faults I greatly prefer the US and the West to any of the alternatives, and I deeply distrust knee-jerk anti-Western leftists.

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by pxlmnk on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @09:27AM (#25209524)
> All the time. It's fucked and Russia fucked it.

hahahah case in point right here folks

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by enaaem on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @05:06AM (#25207621)
Freedom of press is not the same as unbiased press. For example, US citizens can watch Chinese news media in the US, but Chinese people cannot watch US news in China.
Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by throwaway4good on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @07:25AM (#25208478)
I betcha there are more people in China who watch CNN, Fox News etc. than there are people in America who watch CGTN etc.

It is trivial for the US to allow foreign media on US grounds if noone watches it.

If the foreign media becomes popular, the pipe will soon play a different tune.

Case in point: TikTok.

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by scoot_718 on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @07:51AM (#25208671)
There is no independent media in China, your comparison is invalid. They can cry all they want about it - it's their own fault.
Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by yorwba on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @08:12AM (#25208838)
If there's no independent media in China, how do you explain that a Chinese magazine's interview with Dr. Ai Fen was censored on social media? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/11/coronavirus-wu... Surely if they're not independent they'd just not have published it in the first place.
Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by 50or05 on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @08:52AM (#25209198)
Different outlets are controlled by different people some are more loyal to Xi, but ultimately none of them can go wild. Even in this case the news have been removed quickly and Dr. Ai Fen disappeared as well:

https://rsf.org/en/news/whistleblowing-doctor-missing-after-...

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by yorwba on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @09:09AM (#25209352)
> Different outlets are controlled by different people some are more loyal to Xi, but ultimately none of them can go wild.

This is how "independent media" work in most countries that have such a thing: different outlets are controlled by different people, resulting in some diversity of opinion, but not every idea gets the same airtime. Of course the definition of "going wild" is different in a Chinese context.

Also, from the article you linked:

> 04/13/2020 UPDATE RSF has taken note of the video published on the Weibo account of the whistleblower Ai Fen, which suggests that she is free to move, and hopes that it was not staged by the Chinese regime.

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by gostsamo on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @09:38AM (#25209647)
A bit of experience from the former Eastern block. Censorship is not always perfect. Sometimes the censor in charge of the magazine/public house is dumb, sometimes the staff sneaks it around them, sometimes it is not yet communicated that some person or topic is in the blacklist.
Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by yorwba on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @10:38AM (#25210311)
Exactly. Censorship is never airtight, there are always some gaps that independent thought can slip through.
Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by suifbwish on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @11:06AM (#25210663)
You do realize they literally tried to shut up the original scientist who first announced the existence of Covid to his other Dr pals right? I lived in 3 provinces in China during school, they have no freedom of anything over there. Their government is attempting to govern their lives with a mandatory government issued social media account. The freedom of speech often means the freedom to deceive and be deceived.
Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by yorwba on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @11:45AM (#25211163)
> they have no freedom of anything over there

That depends on what you mean by "freedom of anything". Are people allowed to do everything they want to? No. Are they doing it anyway? Yes.

More concretely with regards to freedom of speech: Are independent media allowed? No. Do they exist anyway? Yes.

> Their government is attempting to govern their lives with a mandatory government issued social media account.

What? That part makes me wonder whether all my knowledge is outdated because I haven't been to China this year and nobody told me about this or whether it's you who's been away for too long.

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by suifbwish on Thursday November 26, 2020 @09:21AM (#25220217)
If I am following you, you are saying it’s not so bad because there is a black market and people are able to successfully break the nations laws. Successful crime in a nation does not equate to being a free country in any way, it just means there are some nooses that havent tightened yet
Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by carapace on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @12:27PM (#25211710)
> I betcha there are more people in China who watch CNN, Fox News etc. than there are people in America who watch CGTN etc.

Likely true, but irrelevant.

(FWIW, there are more English speakers in China than America. Also, historically, at one time there were more Christians in Asia than in Europe. There was a Bishop of Beijing. I read up on the history of the old Silk Road a while back.)

The point is that you don't get thrown in jail if the authorities notice you watching the other fellow's broadcasts.

No one in the West is going to jail for watching TikTok, eh?

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by yorwba on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @05:19AM (#25207690)
> US citizens can watch Chinese news media in the US

They could, but they don't, because they wouldn't understand a thing. So in practice, I think the situation is reversed: there are more people in China who watch US news than people in the US who watch Chinese news.

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by labster on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @05:38AM (#25207794)
I know quite a few people in the U.S. who watch RT, a Russian state-controlled media operation. The pivot from backing the left fringe to the Trumpist right has been quite interesting.

Not affiliated with the bug tracker RT, in case you were wondering.

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by chupasaurus on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @07:40AM (#25208575)
Russia Today was created as a child company of RIA Novosti. RIA Novosti itself was created as Sovinformbureau in July 1941 so the propaganda is in it's core.
Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by secondcoming on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @08:21AM (#25208899)
Jeremy Corbyn, the former leader of the UK's far-left Labour party was quite a fan of Russia Today.
Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by ben_w on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @08:40AM (#25209080)
Please, the Labour Party is centre-left not far-left by U.K. standards.

Corbyn himself is far-left (again by U.K. standards), but the Parliamentary Labour Party itself gave him 172-40 against in a vote of no confidence in 2016, only for the public members to vote for him 313,209-193,229 in the subsequent leadership contest.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Labour_Party_leadership...

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by spaetzleesser on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @10:01AM (#25209914)
When you watch FoxNews they call everything that’s not in line with them “far left”. It’s a cool trick to mark anybody only slightly left from them as extremist. And judging from conversations with FoxNews viewers it works like a charm.
Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by ceejayoz on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @11:31AM (#25210975)
A tactic that's backfiring on them now, as they get accused by the President of "pandering to the left".

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/11/trump-nuclear-agains...

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by spaetzleesser on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @02:17PM (#25213087)
Allying with Trump is a dangerous path because his only ideology is himself.
Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by mistermann on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @12:00PM (#25211361)
A similar phenomenon is the mainstream media (and its believers) with the term "conspiracy theory".
Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by spaetzleesser on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @02:16PM (#25213074)
I would argue that there are a lot of conspiracy theories out there at the moment that should be labeled as such.

A better example would be the tendency of the left to mark anyone they disagree with as “racist”. Same strategy. Mark your opponents as something that’s so bad that no further discussion can be allowed.

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by mistermann on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @03:50PM (#25214166)
> I would argue that there are a lot of conspiracy theories out there at the moment that should be labeled as such.

You can attach whatever label you would like to something, it has no effect on whether it is objectively true (in shared, physical reality), it only affects people's perceptions of its truth (virtual reality). This applies both to conspiracy theories, as well as mainstream news theories. There is surely a difference between which class of theories has larger epistemic variance between physical and virtual reality, but this variance exists on a per story basis, and should therefore be analyzed at that level. No one has ever done such a comparative analysis (as far as I know, correct me if I'm wrong), despite what mainstream news theorists would have the public believe.

> A better example would be the tendency of the left to mark anyone they disagree with as “racist”. Same strategy. Mark your opponents as something that’s so bad that no further discussion can be allowed.

An excellent example indeed.

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by wizzwizz4 on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @02:03PM (#25212951)
Cory Doctorow's written a lot about conspiracy theories. Or you could look at https://www.everythingisaremix.info/.
Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by mistermann on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @04:00PM (#25214239)
"CONSTANTLY WRONG: THE CASE AGAINST CONSPIRACY THEORIES"

This seems like a less than promising title for those of us who are interested in what is objectively true. A quick skim of the first three strawman-filled minutes of the video does not make me feel any better.

It's true, one can indeed find plenty of batshit insane ideas within the conspiracy world. Similarly, one can find plenty of dark-complexioned people engaged in fisticuffs on /r/fightporn. What speculative conclusions one should form based on these two facts is a matter of opinion.

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by wizzwizz4 on Thursday November 26, 2020 @04:54PM (#25223791)
Sorry; I linked the blog. You can watch it here: https://www.everythingisaremix.info/watch-the-series
Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by lucian1900 on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @10:36AM (#25210294)
Corbyn is on the left of most Labour MPs for sure, but I don't know if it'd be fair to call him "far left" when there are groups to his left.

There is an actual far left in the UK though, primarily represented by the Communist Party of Britain. There are other smaller groups too, mostly linked to the wider trade union movement.

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by T-A on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @06:49AM (#25208242)
Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by yorwba on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @07:16AM (#25208412)
Their US equivalents would be

https://www.rfa.org/mandarin/

https://www.voachinese.com/

Those are government-sponsored, explicitly foreign-facing (the language is a big hint) mouthpieces that are about as representative of "US news" as the sites you link are representative of "Chinese news" (i.e. barely).

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by enaaem on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @07:21AM (#25208444)
All those sites are blocked in China. Even hackersnews is blocked.

Check: http://www.chinafirewalltest.com

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by yorwba on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @07:54AM (#25208693)
I know, just like https://cn.ft.com/ and https://cn.nytimes.com/ (which are more likely to be worth reading, although not at the same level as the English originals), but the blocks can be circumvented by sufficiently motivated individuals. And I think there are more of those in China than there are sufficiently motivated individuals in the US circumventing the language barrier to read https://www.caixin.com/ or any of the magazines published by http://boyamedia.com/ . (Of course those aren't representative of "Chinese news" either, most of which probably consists of clickbait blogspam.)
Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by enaaem on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @08:29AM (#25208974)
So Chinese people can watch foreign news, if they are willing to break Chinese law?
Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by unishark on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @08:28AM (#25208970)
> ...but the blocks can be circumvented by sufficiently motivated individuals.

As I understand it, using a VPN to get past the firewall is a crime for Chinese nationals. And the govt is constantly blocking them anyway as they find them.

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by yorwba on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @08:35AM (#25209027)
Marijuana is illegal as well, that doesn't change the fact that lots of people are smoking it anyway.
Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by acqq on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @07:50AM (#25208667)
Sure, the web sites are blocked, but radio waves couldn't be. And traditionally there were always enough radio stations carefully built and sufficiently financed to cover the target areas.

RFA:

https://www.rfa.org/about/info/frequencies.html

VOA:

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https...

A nice example of what one U.S. journalist knew regarding the coverage of North Korea in 2013:

https://www.northkoreatech.org/2013/04/11/us-wants-voa-rfa-t...

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by T-A on Thursday November 26, 2020 @05:28AM (#25218679)
> Those are government-sponsored, explicitly foreign-facing (the language is a big hint) mouthpieces

Of course they are. Can you point to any mainland Chinese news outlets which are not effectively controlled by the CCP?

If not, it follows that a foreigner reading or watching this stuff gets a pretty good idea of what mainland Chinese are being fed by their news media.

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by anon73044 on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @09:25AM (#25209502)
RFA is the mouthpiece of the CIA.
Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by kome on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @08:09AM (#25208806)
i'm pretty sure the contrary is true.
Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by DSingularity on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @07:59AM (#25208726)
The lower bound on civilian casualties is in the hundreds of thousands and the upper bound is a little over a million. A million innocent people murdered by the enlightened, modern, and most definitely civilized west.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by Paradigma11 on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @08:47AM (#25209151)
"If we jump back two decades ago the American people were lead to believe that weapons of mass destruction were present in Afghanistan and Iraq and it was the cornerstone of the war initiative there."

Nope, most news outlets were very critical about the iraqi WMD story with some notable exceptions like the aforementioned NYT and there never was one with afghanistan. Just because there are no/few positive stories about russia does not necessarily mean that the media is biased.

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by vagrantJin on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @09:19AM (#25209447)
You may or may not realize how truly frightening that is.

A military in a democratic, sovereign nation should have oversight from civilian authority. If people knew that their sons and daughters were effectively raiding another country as a belligerent force - why did they not stop it. The fear comes not in that they didn't, but that they couldn't

Human nature should be feared, especially when you have a loose cannon firing at will, and only grateful that the barrel is facing away from you. If it were to turn towards you, how do would you stop it?

We never truly learn from history as much as we think we do.

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by alextheparrot on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @09:39AM (#25209658)
> A military in a democratic, sovereign nation should have oversight from civilian authority

Would it not be fair to say that in a representative government those elected representatives are the civilian authority? The US Congress approved using military force in Iraq, by quite large majorities in both bodies.

That is not to say the war was good or the reasons true, just that the second paragraph of your critique seems unfounded as there was oversight by the republic’s civilian authority.

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by vagrantJin on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @02:54PM (#25213533)
> Would it not be fair to say that in a representative government those elected representatives are the civilian authority?

Absolutely. But those office bearers have constituencies I presume? If office bearer xan make their own decisions regardless of what the people who put them in power say - we would be stretching the idea of a democratic republic to the extreme, don't you think? The taxpayers should have the ability to veto decisions if in large enough numbers.

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by boomboomsubban on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @01:11PM (#25212260)
>Nope, most news outlets were very critical about the iraqi WMD story

This isn't really accurate. Most news outlets repeatedly published the government's agenda without much critical examination of what they meant. This study on the issue details events well.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/268330903_Media_Cov...

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by Paradigma11 on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @02:06PM (#25212971)
The study mostly shows that the media let the administration frame how the situation was reported.

"This study supports four major findings about the media’s coverage of WMD during the three periods: 1. Most media outlets represented WMD as a monolithic menace, failing to adequately distinguish between weapons programs and actual weapons or to address the real differences among chemi-cal, biological, nuclear, and radiological weapons. 2. Most journalists accepted the Bush administration’s formulation of the “War on Terror” as a campaign against WMD, in contrast to coverage during the Clinton era, when many journalists made careful distinctions between acts of terrorism and the acquisition and use of WMD. 3. Many stories stenographically reported the incumbent administration’s perspective on WMD, giving too little critical examination of the way officials framed the events, issues, threats, and policy options. 4. Too few stories proffered alternative perspectives to official line, a problem exacerbated by the journalistic prioritizing of breaking-news stories and the “inverted pyramid” style of storytelling. "

Which is fair, I guess. But still, most news outlets internationally were doubtful that Iraq had WMDs and were vindicated after the war.

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by tzs on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @09:05AM (#25209307)
I don’t remember allegations of WMDs being a significant driver of the US invasion of Afghanistan. Almost all the justifications I remember reading about or seeing in the news and in government statements involved the 9/11 attacks.
Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by dragontamer on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @09:13AM (#25209390)
We invaded Afghanistan because the Taliban were in direct support of Al Qaeda. Agents of whom brought down the twin towers on 9/11.

Iraq probably was a mistake, now that we look back on it through clearer lens of history.

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by fishtacos on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @10:32AM (#25210252)
As I recall, the Taliban refused to hand over bin Laden and disavow Al Qaeda, which is why they were invaded. Al Qaeda openly bragged about attacking the Great Shaytan (Satan). I don't recall much opposition to that invasion.

The Iraq War was a definite mistake. The only argument that might stand, which is completely absurd if actually analyzed, is that of humanitarian intervention (against Saddam and his Ba'athist party). Even that humanitarian intervention angle, however, is very suspect due to the human cost of severe sanctions imposed on on Iraq after the first Gulf War, which the US maintained and pressured allies to do as well.

As we saw, once no WMDs were found, the US government switched to a different argument - the humanitarian one. And when that was shown to be BS due to thousands of civilians dying monthly at the hands of The Coalition of the Willing, they switched the argument to "bringing Democracy" to the country. It's the biggest fuck up and biggest moral stain on this country since I have been living here (mid 90s).

Ultimately, the worldwide opposition was palpable. The WMD inspectors from the UN were kicked out by the US. Scott Ritter, the head of the UN group, decried the invasion and did in fact predict the US would achieve nothing and leave "with their tail between their legs". It should have never happened.

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by u801e on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @11:22AM (#25210852)
> As I recall, the Taliban refused to hand over bin Laden and disavow Al Qaeda, which is why they were invaded.

My recollection was that the Taliban asked for evidence of Osama Bin Laden's involvement in the September 11th attacks. The US didn't provide it and subsequently invaded.

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by fishtacos on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @12:03PM (#25211402)
While that may be true (don't recall specifically), the Taliban were not in a position to be asking for anything, since they were essentially a group of mujahideen who won over other rival groups and took violent control of the country post the Afghan-Soviet conflict, and immediately instituted the most severe form of Wahhabism and Sharia law of that time period. A few steps away from ISIS.

Not arguing you, to be clear. I appreciate the clarification.

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by u801e on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @12:07PM (#25211452)
> Taliban were not in a position to be asking for anything

If they weren't, then the US military wouldn't still be in Afghanistan dealing with them nearly 20 years later.

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by fishtacos on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @12:17PM (#25211586)
Entrenchment, local support against invaders/foreigners (despite opposition to the Taliban), further radicalization and funding that occurs during a conflict by proxy parties, is why the US is still there - the Taliban were never in a position to be asking for anything.

EDIT: I'm not defending the US and any coalition troops staying there. I'm interpreting the current situation. Best thing we can do at this point (and 10 years ago) is to cut our losses and GTFO.

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by mindslight on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @10:20AM (#25210099)
Iraq being an aggressive war for conquest was obvious at the time, if one wasn't hopped up on propaganda goofballs - motte and bailey "support our troops" etc.

It's not enough to claim the enlightened viewpoint in hindsight. You have to be on the right side of history while it's happening.

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by porpoise on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @06:56AM (#25208290)
Very much agreed. One of the smartest people I know, a Frenchman called Phillippe Lemoine, published 50k words in Quillette [1] on China's role in the COVID pandemic, comprehensively addressing the cover-up charges, accusations of data fudging, etc, countering the NYT/Wapo narrative, but to this day, people are still talking about "Chinese cover-up" as if it's an uncontroversial fact, not even bothering to answer any of his arguments. Many people are even still repeating the "China closed Wuhan but sent citizens everywhere" accusation that has already been debunked and retracted by its original promulgator [2,3], and even people who know it's debunked don't bother to correct it when others bring it up. When I originally came to the US, I was attracted by its high-minded ideals, but the behavior of the press and most politicians (and, I have to say, most of the tweeting public) changed my perception forever.

━━

[1] https://quillette.com/category/covid-19/china-syndrome-serie...

[2] https://www.factcheck.org/2020/05/trumps-flawed-china-travel...

[3] https://danielabell.com/?s=Ferguson&submit=Search

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by mensetmanusman on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @07:11AM (#25208379)
Whenever humans are involved, keep your expectations low, and you wont be disappointed.
Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by StavrosK on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @07:59AM (#25208734)
I still get disappointed.
Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by chordalkeyboard on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @02:18PM (#25213093)
your expectations are not low enough.
Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by croissants on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @11:08AM (#25210702)
The linked Quillette article series is pretty dang good, and offers convincing refutations of things I believed before reading it (most of which are described in porpoise's comment).
Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by lenkite on Thursday November 26, 2020 @01:58AM (#25217573)
6 corporations control 90% of all US media https://techstartups.com/2020/09/18/6-corporations-control-9...

If they don't want something published, it will never be seen by most people.

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by AndrewBissell on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @11:44AM (#25211146)
Yesterday I heard a report from the BBC talking (in very oblique terms, of course) about the possibility Germany will replace the U.S. as the main military opponent to Russia. The German people's opposition to the vastly increased defense budgets this would require was described a quixotic insistence on "moral purity."
Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by somesortofsystm on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @06:31AM (#25208157)
Unfortunately, the CIA has its tendrils deeply planted within the American publics' minds ..

https://greenwald.substack.com/p/a-long-forgotten-cia-docume...

Obama was used to sell war to the American public - and Western Europe. That is going to take a lot of work to undo.

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by u801e on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @11:44AM (#25211148)
That may explain the way the media is framing the trip withdrawals from Afghanistan but not asking why we still have trips stationed there after nearly 20 years.
Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by DyslexicAtheist on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @10:08AM (#25209987)
> What surprises me is that when these propaganda programs become more well known, people are still hesitant to believe that in some form they are still happening,

the single most important thing that defines good propaganda is that it's invisible to those under its influence.. It used to be a lot "worse" back in the pre-Internet days when people generally watched a couple of channels and more or less got their info from news-papers. In a sense all these information bubbles are illustrating how much we are being targeted because we realize that we're not actually agreeing on anything - but again we only see how the targeting works on "the other camp" rarely on us.

the rift going across (Western) society can largely be attributed to how propaganda has changed (forced to be more targeted and aggressive) and how the old forms of white/black info-ops which had massive reach no longer do their job. companies can now play too - no need to be a nation state to get disrupted by a guy in a Max Headroom mask. everyone can be both actor and spectator

It's so strange to me as a non-American when I see a flag wielding citizen somewhere in the news, or normal people display their pride for their home country by talking about "taking a knee", or when they say "he/she is un-American" etc ... or somebody on LinkedIn who considers themselves "patriot" and mentions this in their profile. This "pride" is unheard of where I come from and if such a person would be transported into my home country suddenly speaking my language but with that behavior they would look very out of place.

various names of great thinkers on propaganda float around but Jacques Ellul is by far the most articulate. He also has a section on Propaganda in his other (earlier) "The Technological Society"[2] which is his magnun opus IMO. Both the most underrated books I've had the pleasure to read in this past decade. (I think it was reading Ellul what ultimately radicalized Ted Kaczinsky e.g. helped him come to the conclusion that society is borked beyond repair).

[1] Propaganda: The Formation of Men's Attitudes https://archive.org/details/Propaganda_201512

[2] https://archive.org/details/JacquesEllulTheTechnologicalSoci...

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by jlengf on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @01:10PM (#25212246)
My experience with The New York Times was abysmal, I have never encountered a more unscrupulous journalist than the one they sent to me.
Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by avs733 on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @10:26AM (#25210161)
The reason is because the techniques noted have transcended 'propaganda' and just become 'argumentation'.

c.f.: socialism as a blanket assertion of something being bad without evidence.

edit because I forgot this story...not long ago I ended up in an online argument with someone that I really shouldn't have been about what communism is and isn't (yeah...). Their literal claim was that 'communism is a form of socialism' and they claimed that was evidence that communism is bad, because socialism is inherently bad.

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by toyg on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @04:07AM (#25207291)
They don't even need to coerce anything, these days. The likes of Judith Miller will gladly sell themselves for the promise of favours from the elite.
Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by bamboozled on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @04:36AM (#25207444)
I see the word "elite" used a lot in 2020 to define a certain type of person, what defines an "elite"?
Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by 1propionyl on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @06:53AM (#25208274)
This is tangential, but it mildly irks me how commonly "elite" is now used by most people to refer to a single person. "Elite" is a collective noun and refers to a group, not an individual.

An elite is a group of people who are distinguished from their peers in some way. In common parlance "some way" usually means influence, power, seniority, respect from peers, performance, or wealth.

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by toyg on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @05:58AM (#25207940)
I can't answer for others, but I personally use it like Pareto did [0], i.e. the class currently owning or controlling the bulk of resources and wealth in a given population.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilfredo_Pareto#Fascism_and_po...

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by lucian1900 on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @06:15AM (#25208053)
"Ruling class" is a better term. Currently that class is the bourgeoisie (owners of capital).
Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by Amezarak on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @08:49AM (#25209170)
Considering only the ownership of capital is too restrictive. Control of capital (and therefore power) has shifted from its owners to a managerial elite over the past century.
Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by lucian1900 on Thursday November 26, 2020 @05:58AM (#25218826)
Is that true? Have the Koch/Walton/Rockefeller families ceded control to their management employees? Seems unlikely to me, and unsupported by evidence.
Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by Amezarak on Thursday November 26, 2020 @07:06AM (#25219214)
Capitalists in the old style (more-or-less) certainly still exist, they just aren't the majority anymore. This is a sociological phenomenon first noticed in the 1940s. The bourgeoisie capitalist class largely turned over the reins to managers and set themselves on other pursuits.

Even in large organizations where the owners still do play a semi-active role, most of the day-to-day decision making is (necessarily) is made by the managers. And frequently, even when there is an active disagreement between management and ownership, management wins out.

As a suggestive example, who benefits from mergers? Upper management usually becomes much wealthier, but 50-80% of mergers fail to add value to the company. [1] That is, capitalists lose out 50-80% of the time, but they still happen anyway. Consider the increasing complaints about skyrocketing executive management pay divorced from company performance, golden parachutes, or companies being almost seemingly deliberately run into the ground while the people responsible walk off richer and with a new job.

The power of the managerial class does not just extend to the corporate world either - government has been largely infiltrated by managerialists. Conservatives talk about the Deep State, liberals talk about the revolving door. Both are talking about the same phenomenon.

[1] https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/why-do-so-many-m...

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by lucian1900 on Friday November 27, 2020 @06:54PM (#25233685)
You’re describing a superficial side-effect of the monopoly stage of capitalism, otherwise known as imperialism. The bourgeoisie make the bulk of their money from exporting capital at extortionate interest rates to poor countries, not so much from actual production. The fact that they let their managers take a cut doesn’t change the power dynamic. Lenin throughly described this phenomenon a century ago, it’s in no way new https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/imp-hsc/

Nothing is changed by the bourgeoisie holding state power despite the veneer of democracy, that’s also part of how capitalism works. Just because the haute bourgeoisie don’t risk personal involvement doesn’t mean they aren’t in control. Lenin’s slightly less scientific work talks about that too https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by Amezarak on Saturday November 28, 2020 @07:14AM (#25237098)
One of the people who extensively documented the features of the managerial revolution was a communist completely familiar with the writings of Lenin, James Burnham. See the book by that name.

> The fact that they let their managers take a cut doesn’t change the power dynamic.

The managers are not simply taking a cut, they are exerting power over capitalists and winning.

Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by lucian1900 on Saturday November 28, 2020 @11:11AM (#25238374)
The managers are also part of the bourgeoisie, though. It’s not like CEOs are working class, they’re capitalists too.

While it’s true that within the bounds of national markets the old haute bourgeoisie is no longer as dominant, imperialist exploitation is the main source of profits for the bourgeoisie as a whole. This American national bourgeoisie (which might be called “managers”) benefit from imperialism too, even though they may not be its primary instigators.

[dead]
Re:How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method'... by modo_mario on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @10:35AM (#25210279)
Of course. Why wouldn't it happen under his either?