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Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by _Microft on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @05:02AM (#24636840)
"In 2017, when United Airlines reduced the weight of its paper in its inflight magazine, it saved nearly 770,000 litres of fuel a year – or $290,000 in costs."

This hit home.

770000 litres of jet kerosene translate to 2100 tons of CO_2 emissions[0]. That's the emissions of more than 200 average Germans or 50% of the emissions of over 400 people. Cutting one's emissions by half is most likely not easy at all, so maybe even more people would be required for an equivalent reduction in emissions.

Now: if someone at an airline thinks that the inflight magazine feels cheap now and that it should be printed on better paper again, it would wipe out any emission savings that hundreds of people could ever hope to achieve personally. Makes one feels a bit helpless, doesn't it?

[0] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerosin (Look for "Kohlendioxidemissionen bei Verbrennung").

Edit: the point I wanted to make is that a willy-nilly decision of someone with sufficient influence can have way more effect that intentional decisions of average people could ever have.

Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by iso1631 on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @07:30AM (#24637617)
> 770,000 litres of fuel a year

Out of 15,000,000,000 litres that they did use.

Their fuel costs were $5.649 billion.

They reduced the cost to $5.649 billion.

They reduced their fuel usage from 15 billion litres to 15 billion litres.

They justified some high-paid execs salary.

Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by draugadrotten on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @05:14AM (#24636876)
Sorry to be blunt, but imagine the CO2 savings if every passenger went to the bathroom before the flight.
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by sandworm101 on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @08:39AM (#24638136)
Some Japanese airlines have done exactly that.

https://japantoday.com/category/features/ana-asks-passengers...

"All Nippon Airways is taking its weight-saving efforts to new heights, asking passengers on some of its flights to visit the restroom before flying."

Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by jacquesm on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @12:08PM (#24640261)
That's getting suspiciously close to a passage from the Hitchhikers guide where you are instructed to get a receipt every time you use the lavatory otherwise you might end up with some quick surgery before departure.
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by brummm on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @12:15PM (#24640355)
Or charge a carbon fee for fat people?
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by iso8859-1 on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @12:37PM (#24640614)
Surcharge for all heads that are not in vats!
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by Quarrelsome on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @10:01AM (#24638785)
If we actually care about climate change then shouldn't we be thinking like this though?
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by majewsky on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @10:42AM (#24639187)
If one cares about climate change, it would be an odd strategy to focus on 0.1% fuel efficiency increases while 10% of flights can somewhat easily be replaced by video calls.
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by Shivetya on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @12:47PM (#24640745)
right about the same time we get the paperless office will we see a transition to video conferencing taking over in face. change is hard

hell at work that is one thing they want to get back in office for is face to face. they have mandated cameras for all managers working remote and looking to do the same for other workers. Still there are teams that are doing one day face to face meetings.

Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by simonh on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @11:56AM (#24640105)
Because clearly it's not possible to do both?
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by majewsky on Thursday October 01, 2020 @07:40AM (#24649772)
Please point to where I suggested that it's not possible to want or have both. The operative word in my comment is "to focus on".
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by simonh on Thursday October 01, 2020 @08:34AM (#24650158)
I don’t think that is helpful though. Some people focus on this, others focus on that, and we can all both cut down our journeys while also packing lighter when we do travel. We’re not going to solve this by ‘focusing on’ any one thing. I’m really tired of criticisms of perfectly good work that amount to ‘but this other thing is more important’. There’s almost always something else more important. So what?
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by eloff on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @11:26AM (#24639736)
No, if one cared one could spend the couple dollars to buy carbon credits to offset your flight. That would do a lot more than a shaving a fraction of a percent of fuel. I notice some airlines have a checkbox for this at checkout, it makes it quite easy to do. I wonder if it really offsets the carbon from the flight though, it seems so cheap. Like any one of the dozen taxes you pay for the flight is more than that. If it's the case one could mandate a tax to cover it and all flights in the country could be carbon neutral instantly and nobody would notice the difference.
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by awiesenhofer on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @07:37AM (#24637670)
sounds like something ryanair would love to implement in an instant
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by bbarnett on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @08:02AM (#24637838)
Plus, it would make full body cavity searches easier to mandate! A win for all!

(coming soon to your local district)

Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by benhurmarcel on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @01:28PM (#24641242)
Actually Ryanair did suggest to make the toilet paying in flight at some point.
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by taneq on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @08:21AM (#24637998)
Goes double if they could eliminate (heh) the toilets and all associated weight as well.
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by benhurmarcel on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @01:29PM (#24641254)
If you could remove one of the two it would already be a large weight saving (and room for more seats). But you'd lose some redundancy.
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by Loughla on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @09:47AM (#24638634)
Honestly - the flight I took the most pre-covid was a regional commuter between a midwest city and Washington DC. It's like a 2.5 hour flight, at most.

Why do you need a toilet for that? I understand there are disabilities that may call for it. But in the 10-15 years I made that flight regularly, I never saw someone use the toilet an extreme amount. It was more for convenience. I have to assume that those short-haul flights could save a ton of fuel by eliminating toilets.

But I also have a young(ish) bladder and young(ish) digestive system. So maybe I'm just too self-centered.

Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by themaninthedark on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @12:15PM (#24640349)
Woman with a heavy menstrual cycle.

Possibility of plane unable to take off at the scheduled time but holding on the runway to make the next available slot.

The problem with cutting some things out is that, even though it might not be utilized 95% of the time, that 5% when you need it, you really need it.

Similar to the backup generator for your data center and justifying it along with the maintenance and tests that go along with it to your boss.

My worry with the direction that engineering is moving, lean, is that we are reducing our safeties below a good level. I see the philosophy moving to other areas, such as finance, creating a race to the bottoms where everyone is leveraged as much as possible. Then when a crisis hits, everyone is unable to survive and we have to turn to government bailouts.

Lean philosophy has recently been targeting healthcare, as a way to reduce cost and reduce adverse outcome while improving quality. While I do think this is important, looking at what is going on in the middle of a pandemic. Is a contributing factor of hospitals running out of masks and ventilators due to lean inventory management practices?

I read a lot a about food wast and how we over produce, it seems logical that there will be a push for lean practices there as well. I could see it being made as a strategy to reduce the amount of CO2 as well as farm land. But conversely, with climate change and the risk of crop failure, is that a good idea?

Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by Loughla on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @01:10PM (#24641027)
That's fair, and like I said - I was afraid I was being too self-centered.

As for the rest - I am completely, and 100% over lean philosophy/training/gurus. That has been a major focus in higher education in recent years.

And it has just led to top-down, money based decisions instead of student focused discussions and choices.

I am with you, I think we are just removing safety from areas that may not be appropriate to remove them from.

Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by taneq on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @08:48PM (#24645987)
> I am completely, and 100% over lean philosophy/training/gurus.

100% with you here. Especially the ones preaching 'optimizing' your personal life by getting rid of any capacity beyond what you use in your daily life. Once you peel back the glossy cover they almost always, in real terms, translate to "save money by mooching off your friends' equipment and work space".

Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by themaninthedark on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @03:23PM (#24642643)
Sorry if my tone was a little strong, that was not my intention at all. I saw where you said you were thinking from a limited scope and decided to use it as a thought exercise :) Then I went off on a tangent about cost cutting XD
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by electricviolet on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @10:52AM (#24639308)
Can you imagine the misery and chaos if someone on the flight desperately needs the restroom and there isn't one?
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by mmcconnell1618 on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @12:57PM (#24640883)
Now imagine an entire cruise ship where the toilets don't work: https://www.cnn.com/2013/12/17/travel/carnival-cruise-triump...
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by mumblemumble on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @10:17AM (#24638951)
It's also that you have a old(ish) bladder and an old(ish) digestive system.

Accommodations for other people's physical needs is a pretty serious Chesterton's Fence situation.

Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by paganel on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @01:26PM (#24641210)
I get semi-panic attacks if I know I can’t have access to a toilet if I really want to, and not in 2 hours’ time, but in 5 or 10 minutes’ time. That’s why I avoided taking inter-city buses before I purchased my car (which happened 6 years ago), and instead opted for trains (which were slower but had working toilets).

In other words asking grown-up people to just “keep it in” doesn’t work, just ask Tottenham player Eric Dier for the latest example (am on mobile, too lazy to link, but a quick web search should give you the whole story).

Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by TwoHeadedBeast on Thursday October 01, 2020 @04:49AM (#24648839)
You need to bear in mind that it's common practice for one aircraft to fly several different routes, even in the same day. So it might do a short 2.5 hour flight in the morning, then do a longer 5 hour flight after. Also I'm not sure with lo-cost carriers that the crew will get a chance to disembark. The plane will be turned around as quickly as possible.
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by stallmanite on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @03:01PM (#24642378)
Comsider the situation if they removed the bathrooms. What’s the plan when inevitably somebody didn’t plan ahead or gets sick? A very unpleasant ride / the whole cabin watching their fellow flyer urinate (or worse) in the aisle? Seems like a complete nonstarter.
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by nradov on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @02:26PM (#24641914)
You never ate a bad burrito in an airport restaurant?
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by newyankee on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @05:22AM (#24636903)
This raises a question, shouldn't a ticket price component has some relationship with your weight. Discounts/extra prices depending on your how much away you are from design assumptions.
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by glutinouspigeon on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @06:21AM (#24637187)
I would be okay with this only if they also gave me appropriate seating for my height. Being tall has had some benefits, but I'm constantly annoyed by the consequences.
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by randycupertino on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @05:58AM (#24637070)
This would be great but how on earth would we get people to comply? We can't even get people to wear masks in stores right now without throwing a tantrum. People would like lie like crazy regarding their weight. Heck, my driver license is 25lbs lower than I currently am.

I guess you could alleviate the embarrassment factor by making it a total passenger + baggage max so people could weigh themselves AND their carryons at home before they arrive to confirm and offset anything.

Interesting idea though!

Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by Symbiote on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @09:44AM (#24638609)
On tiny planes, like the ones that go between islands in the Pacific, they weigh everyone (with hand baggage) when checking in. This is in order to load the plane evenly.
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by jethro_tell on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @11:54AM (#24640085)
Absolutely. They don't have baggage scales there, they have bathroom scales.
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by avh02 on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @07:30AM (#24637623)
the same way they enforce baggage requirements. When money's involved, the enforcement will happen.

Maybe you buy "x kg plus or minus 5 kg" and they weigh you and penalize/refund if it's changed since buying the ticket.

Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by majewsky on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @10:56AM (#24639356)
> refund

Ha, good one.

Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by TwoHeadedBeast on Thursday October 01, 2020 @05:05AM (#24648928)
Not sure why you're getting the downvotes. If I pay for a 25kg bag instead of 20kg, and I don't use the extra, I definitely do not get a refund.
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by torresmo on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @06:15PM (#24644644)
Interesting ... weighting yourself could be optional. And if you are below some mark/average, you'd receive a discount voucher for future flight. As a result, this airliner would be attracting lighter/leaner customers, which would save fuel costs.
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by pseingatl on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @10:39AM (#24639148)
Passengers are weighed in Samoa.
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by 542354234235 on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @07:15AM (#24637518)
I think it should be. It is an industry where the weight of the goods is very closely tied to the cost, which isn’t really the case for car or train travel (obviously weight is a factor but 30 lbs plus or minus isn’t changing the cost to get you there by 10-20%). They already weigh your bags and charge you based on that (usually $30 for anything under 50 lbs and something like $70 for over 5o lbs).

I think the backlash to them charging extra if you and your total bags comes in “overweight” would be too high to work. Even if people weren’t offended, you wouldn’t really be able to have a good idea how much extra you’d be hit with until you were at the gate. But if they did some sort of discount refund or maybe a voucher for future flights, that might work. Start weighing the checked bags and noting the exact weight (instead of just over-under 50 lbs) and then stepping on a scale with your carryon luggage (with no outward display) and totaling them. If you are under the average, you get a voucher credited to your account on a sliding scale by how much you are under. If you are over the average or you choose not to be weighed, nothing changes and you have only paid the full fare like normal.

Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by avh02 on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @07:28AM (#24637605)
I lost 40 kg at some point - then you see what they charge for baggage (yes, yes, baggage handling has costs) and think you should get a discount
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by nickff on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @01:55PM (#24641528)
The reason they don't want you to take much baggage is that the airlines are major freight carriers. Your baggage is competing for space with parcels.
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by bartread on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @05:45AM (#24637008)
Many airlines already require obese passengers to pay for two seats.
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by danpalmer on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @07:28AM (#24637604)
This would obviously be socially unacceptable, but airlines do already charge for weight in other ways – baggage weight, large item surcharges, hand luggage charges, etc.
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by jojobas on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @08:27AM (#24638043)
And overflowing into a neighbor's seat is somehow socially acceptable. Go figure.
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by cies on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @05:26AM (#24636922)
If taxes on petrol are not charged for airlines, those businesses will for sure use their cheap petrol in their advantage. The nice-thick-paper mags must have helped them make quite a bit of money on "in flight purchases".

If we are serious about cutting CO2(-equivalent) emissions, we must tax all emittors equally. Airlines should not be able to escape it, or we will keep seeing this kind of oddities in that high pollution industry.

Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by nickff on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @01:58PM (#24641575)
I don't mean to nit-pick, but 'petrol' and 'gasoline' are not generic terms for fuel. Some (piston-engined) propeller airplanes use petrol/gasoline, and are usually exempted from certain local taxes (as are marine users and farm users). Airliners are usually powered by turbine engines (often 'jets'), fueled by kerosene (or one of the JP-series fuels) which fall under their own tax regimes.

*addendum: apparently Canada has implemented or is planning to implement a carbon tax on aviation fuel.

Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by cies on Thursday October 01, 2020 @10:14AM (#24651031)
Thanks. If I say "petroleum" would that cover all types of dinosaur juice?

(I only want to cover the liquids, not coal or wood)

Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by nickff on Thursday October 01, 2020 @11:14AM (#24651835)
Petroleum generally refers to the unrefined substance; you could use 'petroleum products' to cover all the bases.
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by cies on Friday October 02, 2020 @04:49AM (#24660524)
But also plastics :) petroleum fuels maybe then
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by jnxx on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @05:42AM (#24636996)
> Cutting one's emissions by half is most likely not easy at all

It is very easy if you travel by plane several times per year, even on short distances, and you just stop to do that. In fact, it is probably the most effective thing you can do to reduce your own lifetime carbon footprint. A single two-hour flight produces around 400 kilograms of CO2 per person. This is equivalent to several months of heating in a cold country.

And don't start me harping about "offsetting" carbon emissions. Carbon has been captured in the course of hundreds of millions of years. There is nothing humans can do which can store it again for the same time. Almost all carbon from a tree is released when the tree dies.

In fact, it is even worse for coal. The coal deposits which we still exploit today, against all better knowledge, have mostly been formed during the carboniferous geological period. In this period, there were NO bacteria and fungi which could decompose lignin, the main structural component of wood. In other words, the wood from trees could not decay, which was the base for the coal deposits from the carboniferous period, which still form most of the coal today. The consequence of this is that burning coal is irreversible even in the course of tens of thousands of years, because the conditions under which this coal has been formed - an absence of fungi that can decompose lignin - simply do not exist any more. We are not only doing massive damage to the next generations of human children, but we are profoundly and irreversibly changing the conditions for life on Earth.

Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by avar on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @06:13AM (#24637149)
You're mostly wrong about the coalification process as it relates to the carboniferous. There's many different types of coal, but the one you seem to be thinking of is hard coal (anthracite). The others are lignite and bituminous coal.

It's indeed the case that the comparative lack of rotting during carboniferous contributed to the available biomass to turn into coal, but that sort of coal doesn't form without heat and compression. It's got as much to do with the earth being more geologically active at the time, and more low-lying wetlands.

But coal is forming today from peat -> lignite -> bituminous coal -> anthracite (then eventually graphite). E.g. Germany's electricity generation was ~30% lignite burning in 2015[1], and those deposits formed mostly during the tertiary period.

So you're five to six orders of magnitude off if you think coal hasn't been forming since the carboniferous.

None of which is to say that these deposits are renewable in any practical sense. We can imagine digging them all up and burning them in the next 500 years, and then having to wait around the time since the T-Rex walked the earth for meaningful regeneration.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lignite#Uses

Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by samatman on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @06:06AM (#24637112)
> There is nothing humans can do which can store it again for the same time.

This is simply untrue.

Grow woody biomass, and combust it in a reducing environment, and you get carbon. It's biologically inert. Bury it.

It's not difficult, or impractical, and even if you mix it into soil, it will remain sequestered for centuries or millennia.

It's just... charcoal. Why would we have to make coal in the way it was made in the carboniferous? Your doom posting doesn't make any sense.

Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by fogihujy on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @06:17AM (#24637165)
Exactly, it might not happen naturally at the same scale anymore, but getting carbon back into the ground is definitely possible. The main issue is cost/effort.
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by devit on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @06:29AM (#24637222)
Often plane tickets are cheaper than any other means of transportation, even if you ignore travel time and convenience.

If such a carbon reduction is desirable, then taxes on air travel need to be raised.

Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by perl4ever on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @08:00AM (#24637825)
Why would a pound of carbon from air travel be worse than a pound of carbon from something else? If it were taxed differently, wouldn't that provide an incentive to produce more CO2, against market forces?
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by devit on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @08:08AM (#24637894)
I mean taxes on all carbon emissions should be raised (if airlines already pay them, otherwise airlines should pay them - also "taxes" can be replaced with a cap-and-trade scheme).
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by _Microft on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @08:18AM (#24637968)
I would really like to have fine-grained information on the distribution of emissions in a society. Nobody in my circles is flying more than at most once per year but I know someone who's flying bi-weekly over transatlantic distances (to either the US or to Asia). They certainly contribute a good deal to the average emissions that we do not.
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by tonyedgecombe on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @08:28AM (#24638049)
Even in the US only half the population will get on a plane in any one year. Climate change is a problem of the well off.
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by jimbokun on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @11:23AM (#24639694)
> Makes one feels a bit helpless, doesn't it?

Not so much.

It makes me feel like just putting the right economic incentives in place, will rapidly lead to savings no one imagined possible before.

As you point out, motivating individuals to reduce their carbon footprint is incredibly inefficient, as it is very difficult for individuals to make much difference if the goods and services they consume are not also optimized to become more carbon efficient.

But if 770000 liters of kerosene can be saved by making the inflight magazine lighter, can you imagine what other low hanging fruit are out there, if incentivized by the right kind of carbon taxes and other incentives? Businesses can very rapidly adapt and make changes with outsize impact like this, far more than individuals can.

Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by hintymad on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @04:26PM (#24643408)
Well, then imagine how much CO2 emission it saves if all of us cancel our traveling plans, especially those nice twice-a-year overseas family vacations. Oh wait, that's one of the privileges that anyone dares to take away, right?
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by a5withtrrs on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @11:12AM (#24639549)
I've always wished they'd remove the unnecessary advertising for luxury goods I'll never buy since I'm flying in cattle class, this further drives home that sentiment. I suspect the only reason they keep them is due to the advertising revenue they gain by printing them in the first place. Digital entertainment systems built into the screens or served over WiFi are slowly replacing them, but I doubt there's a weight reduction with the screen based solutions.
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by mauriciolange on Thursday October 01, 2020 @10:34AM (#24651267)
And it is a rather good point. Corporations should bear the burden of changing "consumption" habits, much more than individuals, as any corporate action scales much more than individual actions.
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by durnygbur on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @05:17AM (#24636887)
Papper magazine?! Why on earth they carry onboard a little warehouse of cosmetics, perfumes, plastic merchandise, and other overpriced tat no one buys? Yet it's the passenger luggage which they've (ie. airlines in general) always targeted with their ridiculous corporate cost-cutting policies.
Re:The Airline Industry's Meltdown by czzr on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @09:44AM (#24638608)
Obviously people do buy them otherwise they would stop.

Passenger luggage is targeted partly because it is pure cost, but also it’s a price discrimination mechanism.