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Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by OzzyB on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @10:23AM (#24061087)
Quoting from the excellent blog post[1] submitted here yesterday[0] that stole my morning workout time:

" Instagram is some strange hybrid mix of social and interest graph, and now it’s also a jumble of formats, with a Stories feed relegated to a top bar in the app while the more stagnant and less active original feed continues to run vertically as the default. Messaging is pushed to a separate pane and also served by a separate app. Longer form videos bounce you to Instagram TV, which is just an app for videos that exceed some time limit, I guess? And soon, perhaps commerce will be jammed in somehow? Meanwhile, they have a Discover tab, or whatever it is called, which seems like it could be the default tab if they wanted to take a more interest-based approach like TikTok. But they seem to have punted on making any hard decisions for so long now that the app is just a Frankenstein of feeds and formats and functions spread across a somewhat confused constellation of apps. "

Let's see if they're forced to make any "hard decisions" about their bundled UX in future...

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24049676

[1] https://www.eugenewei.com/blog/2020/8/3/tiktok-and-the-sorti...

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by alehul on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @11:37AM (#24061992)
As an American who looks at WeChat and sees a massive, unintuitive jumbled mess, you've explained in this comment how that could possibly be so popular in China!

I feel foolish for not having realized that the UX must make perfect sense to everyone who has used WeChat since the days of it being a simple communication app.

By that logic, I'm not sure we could say quite yet that Instagram's bundling is a mistake.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by echevil on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @12:07PM (#24062362)
WeChat has lots of things hidden behind low impression entrypoints. You can explore them when you want. Its primary features, chat and moments, are dead simple, like WhatsApp. Facebook on the other hand, are mixing lots of stuff into their main feed, making the experience horrible for everyone
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by dmix on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @03:00PM (#24064280)
Marketing/business side always demand prime real-estate to push 'features' instead of just blending them into the UI. This is extra-apparent on mobile apps but FB did it on their website for years (I haven't seen what it looks like recently).

It's not easy to say no as a designer but the best companies are the ones most capable of keeping things as focused on primary UX flows as possible.

TikTok figured this out by making it all about scrolling a simple page of high-density videos, the entire screen is full of the content you want. No extra tapping or side scrolling needed.

Reddit is another company that missed the boat on what made their website great during their redesign. Making it feel top-heavy JS-wise and sparser instead of simple high-density information like newspaper site with simple links. For ex: the first article on old.reddit.com is 100px from the top and can fit 10 articles within 1000px, while the new one starts at 400px and lists 3-4 posts by 1000px (HN is 55px and 20+ posts).

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by meristem on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @04:04PM (#24064953)
Let’s ship features! To heck with what users may need or want!
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by cpach on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @04:10PM (#24065017)
The employees want it, management want it, the owners want it – yes, considering user needs can sometimes be very low down on the list.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by matthewaveryusa on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @05:25PM (#24065795)
That's right, in FBs case user != customer
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by syrrim on Thursday August 06, 2020 @08:04PM (#24076679)
Instagram is dead simple as well, if you stick to the main feed and just posting photos. I've used instagram without touching any of the stuff discussed in the top-level comment.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by namelosw on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @10:46PM (#24067696)
Actually those features WeChat wants people to use as new users are pretty intuitive and straightforward. For other functionalities, those are intentionally 'hidden'. Those advanced or experiment features are for those who look for those features or just spreading by friends.

On the contrary, the other big player in China is Alipay, it's pretty much trying to put everything on the first page like Kowloon Walled City - noisy, messy. It just punches everything in your face.

Interestingly, they both serve their purpose, but following different design philosophies. WeChat wants to be a good product, while the Alipay wants to be a portal for every new service around you from Alibaba.

PS: To have an initial impression on how Alipay is not only a payment app, it literally trying to directly covers everything around you, for example:

* Buy everything, or course.

* Pay for electric, gas, and water.

* Riding bikes, bus and metro. Parking, re-fuel, pay your fines.

* Loan, pay credit cards, stocks, insurance, lottery and donations. Or give your child or your spouse some pocket money on monthly basis.

* Also the 'social credit' system you might have heard of.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by rapnie on Thursday August 06, 2020 @12:27AM (#24068118)
Scary. I'm going to pay with cash again out of principle (which I stopped doing due to the pandemic).
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by didip on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @02:17PM (#24063839)
As an American who had to use WeChat for some stubborn friends...

I think WeChat UI is superior because they organize features in a nice boxed grid.

I can ignore things that I don't care about easily.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by Miner49er on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @12:48PM (#24062865)
It's not a mistake in the short-term, but in the long-term it'll hurt growth. New users will find Instagram confusing and why signup and download an app for 3 different things when you only want one of them?
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by asutekku on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @12:52PM (#24062911)
People will flock in where other people are. Unless Instagram gets a decent competitor, people will just get used to it.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by at-fates-hands on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @01:56PM (#24063594)
This is the issue that made Facebook to big to fail now.

They got everybody and their mom on it and now even with all the security, tracking and countless competitors, its nearly impossible to get people off it because of this simple fact - its where everybody they know are now.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by runeb on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @04:02PM (#24064940)
I don't know. In Facebooks case it might as well be hurting them with younger demographics. When everyones mom is there the younger people just might want to go someplace else.

You don't necessarily care that everyone is at some place, just the group you are interested in keeping up with.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by 263943736 on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @08:11PM (#24066963)
Young people just make secret accounts and don't tell their parents. My younger brother is 15 and reports him and his peers are on both Snapchat and Instagram in addition to the usual suspects like Twitch, Tiktok, and Discord. The main reason I've heard for not using Facebook is largely that it's redundant when Instagram provides most of the same features in a slicker package. A lot of fb features like the event planning and facebook market aren't relevant to them yet.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by Miner49er on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @12:54PM (#24062931)
Well there already is a competitor - TikTok.

As it stands, if I only care about the TikTok/Reels functionality, I'm going with TikTok. It doesn't come with all the extra bloat.

I guess we'll see what happens with the potential Trump ban and Microsoft acquisition though.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by beenBoutIT on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @01:02PM (#24063033)
If Microsoft acquires TikTok how would they go about vetting all of the code to remove any potentially malicious components?
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by ethbro on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @01:24PM (#24063242)
> If Microsoft acquires TikTok how would they go about vetting all of the code to remove any malicious components?

Rename it "Skype for Teens". Make no changes to the codebase.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by beenBoutIT on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @01:41PM (#24063410)
That's more like it, but seriously there aren't a lot of articles written about app acquisition and the process of going through and debugging a massive codebase. If they buy it, no one from Microsoft will ever write a blog talking about how the code was a mess and how their team improved it.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by nindalf on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @01:16PM (#24063166)
They will grep for and comment out the code that goes like “maliciouslyUploadSecretInfo.*()“

Sorry, but that was a ridiculous question.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by beenBoutIT on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @01:28PM (#24063288)
Acquiring an app from a Chinese company and slapping the Microsoft branding on it without doing some sort of vetting would be absurd.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by freehunter on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @03:41PM (#24064736)
What’s absurd is thinking Microsoft doesn’t have anyone who can read source code.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by StavrosK on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @03:33PM (#24064626)
How is it different from acquiring a US app?
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by thiagoharry on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @11:33PM (#24067900)
According with the new cold war narrative, in this case we have an very evil code that spy people all the time. Forgetting that last time I checked, companies proven by leaked documents to really spy and pass information to the government was Microsoft, Instagram, Facebook and Google.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by treis on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @01:50PM (#24063510)
They're not. "Malicious" in this case means gathering user data and MS wants that data. They're just going to point the information flow to their servers.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by snypher on Thursday August 06, 2020 @01:40AM (#24068408)
My take on this is that a Chinese company can't take a National Security Letter, and Microsoft already has a Room 641A.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by newen on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @03:16PM (#24064429)
TikTok is "malicious" only because a Chinese company partially owns it. That's literally it and it's just like any other social media company otherwise.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by Miner49er on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @01:04PM (#24063042)
What malicious components?

And how do you define malicious? Every social media contains malicious components, do you mean something different? I don't think TikTok is anymore malicious then Instagram.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by beenBoutIT on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @01:31PM (#24063309)
Malicious as in doing things outside the scope of what Microsoft wants done.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by blisseyGo on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @07:13PM (#24066641)
Anyone else think Facebook launching this might stop Microsoft from buying TikTok now? Depending upon how much money they need, I think Microsoft not having any past social media presence might scare them taking on Facebook as a competitor.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by hbosch on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @01:44PM (#24063441)
> New users will find Instagram confusing and why signup and download an app for 3 different things when you only want one of them?

At a certain scale, a person doesn't make this decision... their friends make it for them.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by 9nGQluzmnq3M on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @11:40AM (#24062023)
You're comparing apples to oranges here. WeChat is a "superapp" platform for doing distinct things: chat, payments, ticket bookings, etc. Instagram's features, on the other hand, are all purely social networking.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by interestica on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @11:52AM (#24062181)
Nah, I think the comparison was apt. IG's features are not purely social networking. The 'TV' portion is an attempt to create a youtube/video alternative. The video chat can replace phone/video messaging. The 'shop' feature is an e-commerce gateway.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by alehul on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @11:48AM (#24062132)
I wouldn't say the UX challenges get any easier as you grow from social networking "super app" to generalized "super app." If anything, it would become more challenging, and the top comment would make more sense as to how it appears intuitive.

On the topic of social, though, WeChat has private messaging and broadcasting, location sharing, a social feed of friends' updates, and public accounts that can push feeds to subscribers [1]. Mediums include text, voice, photo, video, and location, all shared through a variety of types of feeds.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WeChat

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by ethbro on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @01:26PM (#24063271)
We used to call "super apps" portals. Mistaken valuations of their stickiness generally led to the first cratering of internet company values.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by bobthepanda on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @09:56PM (#24067458)
AOL and Yahoo eventually died because there were individual sites that did the individual parts that they had better, and then they became less than the sum of their parts. Similar to how massive industrial conglomerates in America fell apart, or department stores when specialized fashion retailers became a thing.

East Asia is just a lot more friendly to conglomerate structures in general. Korea has Naver and there's Yahoo Japan.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by tanilama on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @11:44AM (#24062092)
TikTok however is the opposite of WeChat where the interface is dead simple and intuitive.

What is Reels immitating here?

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by galuggus on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @11:51AM (#24062169)
The Chinese version of TikTok douyin is also a hybrid of games, shopping, live streams a messenger and instant apps. The ui is far less important than having a captive user base
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by echevil on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @12:01PM (#24062291)
Douyin is a mix of lots of things but you barely realize that. It has one main surface - the feed. IG on the other hand, feels like several unrelated things stitched together
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by tanilama on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @01:17PM (#24063176)
It is not part of the core UX.

TikTok or Doubin, just swipe up/down would be enough for 90% of your input

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by xmprt on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @02:29PM (#24063976)
Doesn't douyin also have a very different demographic than TikTok though? I think their audience is much older in China.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by developer2 on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @06:35PM (#24066357)
Facebook is in the slow process of finally dying. Their ownership of Instagram is sustaining them for the time being, but they are now desperate to steal some market share away from Reddit, TikTok, and WeChat. Facebook is far more desperate than they're letting on publicly. They have already been on the decline for multiple years; the competition is now finally speeding that process up dramatically.

When was the last time you truly cared about anything Facebook-related? A few Twitch streamers switching to their platform? The only reason anyone is streaming on Facebook right now is because they were offered multi-million contracts, or because Facebook is currently paying out "autoplay while scrolling through feeds" as view counts (ie. advertising payouts based on PPV instead of PPC/PPA); when that stops, those streamers will lose everything. Facebook has inflated its viewership numbers by cheating via a "loss leader" tactic, but with nothing else recuperating the losses, which only leads to financial collapse.

tldr; Facebook is finally coming to an end. Their executives know this better than anyone, so they're scrambling to pick up as many scraps as they can in order to delay the inevitable.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by blisseyGo on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @07:15PM (#24066647)
Are you referring to Facebook as a company or Facebook - the product? I do think the Facebook product itself is dying. But their other ventures like IG, WhatsApp etc are doing very well.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by spideymans on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @09:37PM (#24067374)
>tldr; Facebook is finally coming to an end. Their executives know this better than anyone, so they're scrambling to pick up as many scraps as they can in order to delay the inevitable.

Facebook is the Microsoft Office of social networking.. at least in "coolness" factor. Folks under 25, 30ish years old, pretty much only use it because they have to, not because they want to. WhatsApp is in a similar boat amongst young folk within the United States and Canada. Instagram really is Facebook's only social network that has any kind of cachet with this demographic.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by kilroy_jones on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @08:58PM (#24067213)
Wechat is in no way a competitor to Messenger or WhatsApp.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by bobthepanda on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @01:02PM (#24063034)
To me WeChat has more in common with the old AOL or Yahoo web portals in a 2020 wrapping.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by sjg007 on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @02:31PM (#24063986)
I can’t use snap chat but apparently it’s very popular!
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by spanhandler on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @03:27PM (#24064554)
I'm not sure if I'm just turning into an old man prematurely or what, but "social" sites and apps usually turn too confusing for me to use around their second or third iteration.

Facebook c. 2010 was too confusing for me, so I bounced off (from descriptions of what it was like a couple years before that, I think I'd have enjoyed it then).

Twitter's been too confusing for me to understand for years, I can barely follow what's going on when reading it, let alone use it (I've tried within the last couple years, and never got the hang of it). Used to be easy for me to read & use but the interface and interaction options don't make sense to me anymore.

I didn't even figure out that Instagram was supposed to primarily be a social site/service, despite repeatedly being exposed to it, until some time after the Facebook acquisition.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by bobthepanda on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @09:53PM (#24067448)
The "genius" of Instagram is that it's social media as advertising where people are mostly advertising photos of themselves.

This of course makes it very easy to actually insert advertising in as well, because the ads look less conspicuous given the identical layout to a normal photo post (as opposed to say, Facebook, where an ad looks very different from a text status)

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by sjg007 on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @03:32PM (#24064619)
Yep I agree. I find FB the easiest of them all but I had to log off b/c of the politics. I'd rather be ignorant.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by anunnymouse on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @10:07PM (#24067526)
You're are not any more ignorant for avoiding political content on Facebook, it is a bunch of strawman echo chamber trash.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by blisseyGo on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @07:17PM (#24066658)
I think out of all of them, Twitter is the most complicated. Their comment threads itself are super complex. Plus the character limit forcing people to post in multiple threads makes it worse.

UI wise, Snapchat is the worst.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by thekyle on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @11:03AM (#24061582)
I think the trouble is that it's really hard to start a new social network from scratch, so when Facebook wants to compete in a new segment they just tack on the feature to one of their existing social products. However, as you pointed out this leads to feature creep and pushes users to simpler platforms.

What I would do to solve this problem if I were at Facebook is to start new features out on an established platform (like they already do) until they reach a critical mass. Then I would completely break the feature out into its own app with separate branding. Hopefully I could get 10-20% of the active users of that feature to move to the new app and then grow it from there.

It's a very delicate process each time you do it but I think in the long run it would diversify Facebook's revenue across many independent brands and solve the feature creep problem.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by k__ on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @11:24AM (#24061831)
"they just tack on the feature to one of their existing social products"

After the rise of Snapchat Facebook tacked on stories to FB, IG, and WA.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by toper-centage on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @12:39PM (#24062764)
Meanwhile snapchat pushed for weird tv shows and sponsored and featured stories, pushing friend stories to the tiny row on top. It's like they do it on purpose to alienate users in exchange for short time increase in "engagement".
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by chillacy on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @06:34PM (#24066353)
Such an odd decision... they had an app for private communication (the value prop was "you can be yourself when your parents and boss aren't in the audience") and tacked on the supermarket tabloids and celebrity news.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by dragonwriter on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @08:06PM (#24066934)
> the value prop was "you can be yourself when your parents and boss aren't in the audience"

If that's the value prop, what were people willing to pay for that value?

I think, instead, getting sponsored stories in front of eyeballs is the service being provided to the paying customers.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by chillacy on Thursday August 06, 2020 @01:37PM (#24073346)
I'm glad Snap figured out a way to profitability (and what do I know as an outsider looking in), but they don't have as much good demographic info as say Facebook, so they can't for instance show men's shaving ads to men only, which I recall made their sponsored stories very "most common denominator". I no longer use Snapchat and I used to be a daily user maybe 4 years ago.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by uoaei on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @01:02PM (#24063029)
These sorts of metrics are interesting to investors at a quarterly timescale.

Understanding these phenomena is easier when you think of it solely in terms of the bottom line.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by tsycho on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @11:29AM (#24061900)
And even if they lose some users when they split out the feature to a separate app, they have still slowed down the growth of their competitor.

It's an ugly, but effective strategy.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by underwater on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @08:02PM (#24066910)
This is the strategy Facebook did with Messenger. Absolutely everyone complained when they tried to spin it out.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by conradfr on Thursday August 06, 2020 @01:00AM (#24068252)
It was annoying but nowadays it helps you never see or use the main Facebook app.

So in a way their arrogance may have hurt them in the long run.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by Swizec on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @12:57PM (#24062974)
> Then I would completely break the feature out into its own app with separate branding. Hopefully I could get 10-20% of the active users of that feature to move to the new app and then grow it from there.

As we all know this strategy worked great for Foursquare.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by hart_russell on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @10:46AM (#24061361)
It's like Facebook didn't learn their own lesson from... Facebook.

The biggest reason I left Facebook was because the platform became a jumbled mess instead of its original clean interface. It's the reason why Facebook originally won out against Myspace and why Instagram won out against Facebook.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by dleslie on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @11:09AM (#24061657)
What lesson would that be? Facebook is hugely successful.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by hnick on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @08:15PM (#24066982)
A lot of people I know switched to Instagram because it was so simple. Just post a picture.

Now they're Facebooking Instagram.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by 3pt14159 on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @11:42AM (#24062053)
Yes but it is especially uncool and if it stays uncool it will be a future myspace. Instagram is still ok, but even there. It's sliding.

But I think Zuck knows this and buys up enough up and comers to probably stay ahead on enough things.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by SirensOfTitan on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @11:57AM (#24062238)
I find the MySpace comparison tired:

* MySpace, at its peak, had around 75 MM MAU.

* Facebook's core properties (Insta, WhatsApp, Messenger/Big Blue) have around 2.6 billion MAU.

Even if I just consider FB core + Messenger, Facebook is roughly 20x larger than MySpace. Facebook, as a core product, also is growing in non-US markets, even though it has saturated the US markets for years.

MySpace and Facebook just aren't comparable anymore.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by ethbro on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @01:31PM (#24063306)
A more cogent comparison would include total available markets at the time.

75m MAU in 2008 is very different than 2.6b in 2020.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by SirensOfTitan on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @04:40PM (#24065346)
I wasn't trying to make an exhaustive comparison, but each individual contributes inertia to the market regardless of the total size of the market (see 1 below)

The MySpace argument often calls to the transient spirit of social media: one day it's hot, the other it's not. I recall Digg's death too after a controversial redesign. The issue with this argument is that:

1. Numbers not only increase inertia, but social products increase it too. If my friends aren't using a social platform neither am I, usually.

2. Facebook has such a rich culture of A/B testing that they'll never release controversial changes without a deeper understanding of the impact of those changes on engagement. They won't shoot themselves in the foot like Digg did with current leadership.

3. Facebook has a really successful history of acquisitions and its leadership is very aware of social media trends. It catches those trends early.

As a consequence of (1), I'd argue that Facebook has a tremendous moat in comparison to its peers: it has a large amount of users who are more likely to stay put. While Facebook also moves slowly as a consequence of (2) often enough, it can move really quickly on producing novel products.

Facebook certainly will face challenges in the future, but they're likely to be a lot different at this stage.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by xeromal on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @09:39PM (#24067386)
Yeah, Facebook is more akin to Google/Microsoft than it is to Myspace.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by fragmede on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @04:44PM (#24065381)
Err, didn't you just compare MySpace and Facebook by looking at their MAU?

The questions for continued relevance is if Facebook-the-company can continue to iterate Facebook-the-product, or if its codebase has grown too unwieldy, and the company's culture gone toxic, making it harder to add a feature to Facebook, compared to creating a new company, writing a bunch of code, buying content and acquiring users. Given the rise of Instagram(Acquired), Snapchat (IPOd), WhatsApp(Acquired), TikTok, it's not clear Facebook-the-company is able to innovate. It's not clear that they have to, either, given older Internet brands like Yahoo! are still around and making money.

The comparison I'd make is to email. There are reasons email will never die (along with reasons why email can't innovate), and I think some of those reasons also apply to Facebook by this point. There's just some percentage of people that won't ever move, so while, eg, IRC is no longer in its heyday, it's still alive and kicking.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by Dirlewanger on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @12:16PM (#24062482)
Facebook, and the rest of the FAANG companies, aren't going anywhere. They have too much money and too little oversight. No one stands up to them when they buy out their competitors. We're in the 2nd Gilded Age, and I don't think this one is going to end with the government stepping up to the plate to do something about it like they did 100+ years ago.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by zoltar on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @11:53AM (#24062190)
Feels like it's already the new AOL.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by Theodores on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @11:26AM (#24061862)
Facebook is always there for people but it is not the talk of the town any more.

A decade ago you could have everyone on it for their entire lunchbreaks, deep-stalking their mates. But nowadays people are not engaged with it compulsively.

Younger people don't use it because their parents are on it.

Content isn't made by people for Facebook because it won't show in their friends feeds.

Advertisers that are small to medium size businesses don't get a return from spending their money there, so they have left too.

Before Facebook there was the printed telephone book and the Yellow Pages. People and businesses had to be in the phone books because someone might want to contact them that way. But the Internet and email came along. Facebook is a bit like that, people are there but no more engaged than they are with a printed telephone book.

Facebook bought WhatsApp and Instagram to keep the same eyeballs. Because of that Facebook are successful.

But TikTok is the new, cool app in town. 80 million users in the US apparently, not all of them teenage girls.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by Avtomatk on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @12:50PM (#24062884)
I do not understand why this comment has a bad vote, hackernews looks like reddit, if a comment goes against your opinion, downvote without explaining the reasons.

The only thing I disagree with is that Facebook does make big profits from its ads, in fact it does a tough competition to google and amazon... the rest of your arguments seem correct to me... facebook doesn't feel like the home that it was before... it feels more like a newspaper, full of ads, debates, news and toxic people

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by nindalf on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @01:23PM (#24063234)
That comment was downvoted because it was spinning unfounded and untrue speculation as facts. Here’s one example

> Advertisers that are small to medium size businesses don't get a return from spending their money there, so they have left too.

No, this is not true. Not only has Facebook done well in Q2, performance was unaffected by the boycott of large advertisers because of revenue from small businesses.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by Avtomatk on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @01:44PM (#24063450)
Ok I also agree with that, but what I mean is that in my opinion, nobody is an expert in everything, right? ... and if someone is wrong about something, they deserve to know the reasons and not just reject their opinion and leave ... then everybody ask why social networks become toxic ... here's the reason
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by nindalf on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @06:08PM (#24066153)
> nobody is an expert in everything, right

True. But then they should speak with humility and uncertainty, not proclaim their wrong ideas with confidence.

> if someone is wrong about something, they deserve to know the reasons

No, it's not our job to educate people. Least of all, people who are ignorant but purport to be knowledgeable. These are the most resistant to any kind of learning.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by me_me_me on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @11:16AM (#24061728)
Well yes, but it has limited growth potential. Latest generations are not interested joining it. So in 10 years it will be a dying platform.

Kodak didn't die when invented digital cameras, but it was a downhill ride towards inevitable cliff.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by danpalmer on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @11:27AM (#24061886)
This is just a branding thing though right? We've had all sorts of social networks that each rise and fall. If Facebook has the formula for a successful network and can apply that formula over and over again that's pretty successful.

Facebook is probably the the company most able to claim to have achieved this, with facebook.com and Instagram being two big hits, arguably Messenger and WhatsApp too. TikTok is probably the biggest sign that they have actually failed to hit a 3rd generation.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by me_me_me on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @11:42AM (#24062051)
Who know, maybe its true. Though all I can see is: 'buying out promising products before they are going to become your rivals' mentality.

It might be a successful strategy to run a business when you are big enough to do it (as long as your buyouts are correct).

I heard about facebook from a friend when it was still exclusive and I joined when it was opened up. Now I open it up at what seems exponential intervals, and each time it seems my disappointment with the platform is also exponential.

Its a mess filled with garbage mixed with adds that pretend to be content.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by beenBoutIT on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @01:13PM (#24063142)
Back when it was still exclusive to people with university '.edu' email addresses Facebook was the best thing to ever happen to college. Instantly knowing who's in your classes or potential courses was a game changer.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by usrusr on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @12:57PM (#24062966)
Facebook is establishing itself as the social network you go to when you are tired of chasing new social networks. If you wait long enough features off that new network will come to you. This is a much bigger market than dominating a five year cohort.

Facebook has been declared dead without actually dying for so long now that it might still be alive when the retro mechanisms start kicking in.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by mcintyre1994 on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @02:04PM (#24063666)
It's not clear Facebook have the formula for a successful new network - Instagram and WhatsApp were both acquired. When Facebook have tried to create their own new networks, like their original Snapchat clone, it didn't work. That's not really a knock on them though, I don't think anybody else could claim to be able to spin up a successful new social network either.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by justapassenger on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @12:03PM (#24062317)
> Well yes, but it has limited growth potential.

Absolutely. They just reported their Q2 earnings, and Facebook has 2.7B monthly active users. When you exclude China (where they aren't allowed), people without internet or too old/young, then yes - is growth is limited, largely by size of the human population.

Even if young generations decide not to join, this will be likely most powerful network for decades.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by take_a_breath on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @11:28AM (#24061899)
==Latest generations are not interested joining it.==

But they sure love Instagram and WhatsApp.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by joelbluminator on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @04:29PM (#24065213)
todays 30 and 40 year olds are more important than todays 14 year olds, and many of the 30 year olds are still on Facebook. in 15 years todays 14 year old are just gonna be in the beginning phase of their career and earning potential. And also whose to say Facebook doesn't buy one competing platform after the other? Only legal action can stop it from being dominant for decades.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by PKop on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @02:32PM (#24064001)
“Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.”
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by me_me_me on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @08:57PM (#24067207)
Welcome to era of neo capitalism
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by nsilvestri on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @10:55AM (#24061481)
Instagram didn't "win out" against Facebook. They fulfill two different roles with a few duplicated features.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by Invictus0 on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @11:13AM (#24061697)
Yes it did. Instagram is cool and Facebook is not. Now Snap is cool and Instagram is fading.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by skellera on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @11:25AM (#24061857)
Pretty sure Instagram won the Snap battle when they copied stories. Not sure who still considers Snap a major contender in the long run.

I wouldn’t say Instagram is fading. Just that Tiktok is keeping the younger generation away from it. Snap is losing on both sides because of them.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by nsilvestri on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @11:22AM (#24061811)
I am on the older end of Gen Z and have noticed the opposite. Snap was cool from 2014 until 2019 but now Insta has a slight edge. I still use both but it varies by whom I'm talking to: some friends I talk to on Snap and some I do on Insta.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by JoeSmithson on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @11:24AM (#24061833)
It's similar to how Bruce Springsteen and The Rolling Stones aren't cool, but still sell out stadiums.

Facebook (the company) will probably settle into a stable pattern like the BBC's radio lineup, where listeners roll from Radio 1, to Radio 2, to Radio 4 as they age.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by mrkramer on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @11:28AM (#24061897)
I think there's so many ways to connect on the internet that every social app has it's own role and purpose. Everything is fading away as users age and their preferences change. On top of that there are always new apps which are trying to attract new users and lock them in until something new doesn't come out that's why Zuck was obsessed with competition. He tried buying Twitter and Snapchat but they refused on the other hand Instagram and WhatsApp gave in.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by hellomyguys on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @11:38AM (#24062005)
Snap is still wildly popular with Gen Z. The use case for them is mostly messaging and private Stories. Instagram is more of a consumption platform for them at this point. They serve two different use cases.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by tehsauce on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @11:27AM (#24061871)
Agree. Snap used to be cool but Instagram sailed past it.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by mrkramer on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @11:42AM (#24062060)
Zuckerberg is very smart and his mission and vision of Facebook was very straightforward to make Facebook a social utility and that's what it is becoming. I think Facebook is a way to connect to people in a more general way but there will be always all sort of niche social apps like Instagram, Snapchat, TikTok etc.

Btw UI and UX need to evolve but to the point where they don't become bloated.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by joering2 on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @10:54AM (#24061476)
Yes, but were you a target audience of someone who would be clicking ads? You are not. My bet is that they do indeed monitor "ad clickers" and only will worry when these people start leaving en mass. Me and you - not so much.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by spike021 on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @02:11PM (#24063767)
>And soon, perhaps commerce will be jammed in somehow?

It already is... About a week or two ago Instagram decided to put the "Shop" or "Marketplace" button where the "Likes" tab button was... And now to get to your likes/follows/etc. you need to go to your profile tab, and find the "heart" button in the top right.

But because the "like" button has been in the same place for the past several years, it's still ingrained in my habits to press where the "Marketplace" button is, so I keep opening the store page...

I can't believe this wasn't on purpose...

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by harsh3195 on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @02:46PM (#24064128)
In my experience, often people just double tap the photos to like them on instagram. And since most people hardly used the button for liking, it was a prime real estate for shops to move into.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by spike021 on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @02:56PM (#24064233)
I think you're confused.

The "Likes" button on the tab bar wasn't to like a post. It was to basically see the list of all interactions on your posts or new followers/requests.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by Flowsion on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @08:06PM (#24066936)
This hasn't rolled out to me yet (Canada). I'd be super annoyed about this.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by spike021 on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @08:27PM (#24067053)
Makes sense. I assumed I was a part of some A/B testing group.

It's terrifically awful. If you do get a notification, then pressing the "Profile" tab button now brings you to the notifications list view.

But if you have "read" the new ones and want to go back to it you need to dig through for it like I mentioned in the OP.

It's ridiculous.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by alangibson on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @11:00AM (#24061549)
I used Instagram for the first time 6 months ago because I'm old, and I was shocked that an app with such a rep for elegance is such a hodge podge of features. It really feels like they just glued a bunch of 'me too' functions onto the original core app.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by keiferski on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @11:03AM (#24061575)
Once upon a time it was quite elegant. Then, like everything Facebook acquires, it grew into a bloated "why not?" monster.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by mcbutterbunz on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @11:13AM (#24061700)
IMO, its elegance came from its simplicity. It did one thing and it did it well.

There is an ever growing demand for new features, not necessarily from users, to fend off rivals and to stay relevant and exciting. As with a lot of popular apps and services, it ends up bloated, trying to offer everything to everyone and satisfying no one.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by burger_moon on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @02:00PM (#24063634)
Also when your salary is tied to feature development, bloated apps and poor UX is inevitable.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by Rompect on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @04:53PM (#24065476)
> It did one thing and it did it well.

Except it didn't, the photo quality on Instagram is really bad because of compression and it is not possible to share actual good pictures because of that.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by wasmitnetzen on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @05:17PM (#24065693)
That's not what it meant to do - it was supposed to make your crappy early-smartphone pictures look nice with its filters.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by hnick on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @08:16PM (#24066991)
Gotta keep busy adding features to justify that head count.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by Yhippa on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @05:16PM (#24065690)
Hey, those promotions aren't going to get themselves. You have to make sure your features get into production for your year-end review.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by kovvy on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @10:28PM (#24067621)
Instagram insists I'm a bot and immediately blocks any account I make. Using Instagram without an account is a rather dismal experience since it blocks viewing any posts, or scrolling too far through previews of posts. I also deal with businesses that post all their updates on Instagram.

User experience doesn't seem to be a priority for Instagram.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by jcmontx on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @11:03AM (#24061583)
> rep for elegance

Back in 2013-2014 it was a quite simple to use and elegant app. Then Facebook happened.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by whywhywhywhy on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @12:13PM (#24062435)
Spot on. I do get how Reels could eventually be rolled into replacing Discover or even the home feed but the IGTV thing is just bizarre. Yeah let's enter a mode where you start by consuming content 3 seconds long and then suddenly some of it is an hour and you have to hold your phone awkwardly not to touch the screen while you watch it.

Really feels like it belongs more in the feed part than the stories part but I guess no one would watch it then.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by throwaway1777 on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @12:15PM (#24062470)
IGTV content does show up in the feed also, which kinda proves your point that no one would watch it there.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by whywhywhywhy on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @04:13PM (#24065044)
I thought it did but you had to click to activate it.

Only watched one once and feel like that’s where I did.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by subpixel on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @12:50PM (#24062885)
I recently got back onto Instagram for family photos and I still have no idea, or real interest in learning, what stories are. I'm too busy fuming at the avalanche of sponsored posts. It's an utter train wreck.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by Jimjamb98 on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @06:57PM (#24066511)
Stories are simply for things you want to be temporarily visible instead of permanently visible to your followers.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by subpixel on Saturday August 15, 2020 @10:40AM (#24169204)
I don’t know what that means, how that works, or what to make of what I see when I click a story - so I never do.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by prgmatic on Thursday August 06, 2020 @12:19AM (#24068092)
I’ve used it for 8 years now and it’s fine, don’t think the UX is bad at all. Want to know for yourself? Go ask 10 non-developers.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by cwilkes on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @01:38PM (#24063382)
Instagram is like what I read about Highway 99 /Aurora Ave in Seattle: it is the American subconscious where it is a bunch of fitful starts where there was a grand idea but dwindled down to some Psychic stores next to Pot Shops.
Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by jamestciv on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @06:56PM (#24066506)
>perhaps commerce will be jammed in somehow?

Commerce is already integrated into the stories feed, not only with advertisements as you scroll through stories, but with "swipe-ups" that users can use to sell or advertise products with.

As much as this article paints a messy picture of Instagram as an app, it's still wildly popular and these issues don't seem to be hurting its popularity.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by WhyNotHugo on Saturday August 08, 2020 @06:29PM (#24095753)
> Messaging is pushed to a separate pane and also served by a separate app.

Wait, there's a separate app for IG messages? For iOS? Link? I can't find _any_ references to it.

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by ffpip on Friday August 21, 2020 @04:21PM (#24238515)
Yes there is one for close friends. It's called Threads.

You can add anyone to your close friends list. So add anyone you like to chat to. If you want a group to appear in Threads, add all the people in the group to threads.

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/threads-from-instagram/id14738...

Re:Facebook launches its TikTok rival, Instagram Reels by octernion on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @01:08PM (#24063077)
just to reinforce this, i tried instagram for the first time in a while and wasn't able to even find the new reels functionality. it seems buried among 100 other things instagram is trying to do.