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Re:The End of OS X by mstade on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @03:21PM (#23618900)
I keep reading these types of comments on HN but I just can't relate. I consider myself a power user, and precisely because MacOS feels like the best of Unix combined with customer focus is why I'm wholly invested in the Apple ecosystem. I simply can't relate to the statement that Mac is a "platform that contends with me every step of the way" and I'm curious to know more specifically why you feel this way?
Re:The End of OS X by banachtarski on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @03:52PM (#23619369)
I just "use linux" and I get all the benefits with much better hardware (more memory, disk storage, speed for compilation), better drivers (important especially for GPU support for either graphics/rendering work or machine learning) and my downsides are... what exactly? Itunes, Mail, etc, none of the software shipping with MacOS is actually any good. I don't use Safari. From your perspective, what aspect of the "customer focus" materially improves anything? ICloud? The thing that lost a ton of my data over the years? Safari? The thing that doesn't even support WebGL 2 or other standards that are a decade old? (seriously, safari is the new internet explorer).
Re:The End of OS X by fluffything on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @05:28PM (#23620548)
> and my downsides are... what exactly?

I've spent zero days, zero hours, zero minutes, and zero seconds fiddling with setting anything up in macOSX over the last 15 years.

I manage a bunch of Linux systems, from laptops to desktop to servers, and over the last 15 years I've probably spent months of my life setting up stuff that should have just worked.

I use a mac at home and as my dev machine, because I charge quite a bit of money for doing that for Linux, and I don't want to throw my own money like that during my free time.

> Itunes, Mail, etc, none of the software shipping with MacOS is actually any good.

I use many Microsoft Office Apps, Adobe suite apps (mainly photoshop, lightroom and illustrator), and all of them just work.

VNC clients, VPN clients, Samba, they all just work. External devices, no issues. Do I want to stream my display over wifi to my television, or my audio to the stereo? Just one click away. Do I want to restore the back up of one directory from 2 years ago ? Its three clicks away.

On Linux, half the steps to each of these things are filled with hours and hours of research in the Arch wiki. Do you want to stream your monitor to your TV? Start by setting up a media server, and then 200 steps. Do you want to restore a partial backup of some folder in a BTRFs drive, a dozen steps that I cannot remember. Like no way. I don't want to remember how to do these things, and I don't want to have to look it up. If nobody is paying me to do these things it should be completely obvious how to do them and it should just work.

But hey, do convince your employers to use Linux everywhere, its great for the business.

Re:The End of OS X by wuwuno on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @10:37PM (#23623354)
I've been a nix guy since 1983. Worked for a major nix player, wrote end user application software on the platform, built chip design software on the platform, wrote device drivers for all kinds of hardware, system admin for years and years, etc. etc. I'm not some newb who just fell off the truck.

In many way *nix is still stuck in 1983 because it's a craftsman's platform, which is why there 10,000 distros, oops 10,001, no 10,002, oh 10,003, ugh! Linux is great on servers, because all servers require craftsman for the care and feeding, and Linux is so much better than Windows in that regard.

I gave up my Linux machines because I'm no longer interested in being my own sys admin. Frankly I was done being my own sys admin back in the 90's but I felt the need to keep my propeller spinning, and stay true to my geek roots.

In 2008 I bought a Mac Pro 8 core machine, and that's still kicking, my son uses it for Machine Learning as part of his graduate program, and it's just as fast now as when I first bought it. It was left behind with the last OS upgrade, but it will work just fine for another 4 or 5 years on the old OS.

In 2009 I still had a Linux laptop, but it was painful back then. With SnowLeopard it became easier to create an maintain a Hackintosh then it was to manage a Linux laptop I was off Linux for good.

For a hobbyist(craftsman) Linux is great, for a server that needs craftsman, Linux is great, for a consumer, buy a Mac.

Re:The End of OS X by parasubvert on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @09:07AM (#23627402)
And most server admin is moving to an “immutable infra” model where the Linux box is a container worker node that is disposable. Life’s too short to be sysadmining.
Re:The End of OS X by pjmlp on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @03:43AM (#23625219)
I went to a mix of Windows/macOS instead, but can fully relate to your story, as I had an UNIX zealot phase during my university years, and have been the UNIX/Windows porting guy at several projects.

My reason for giving up was reaching the conclusion that Linux distributions would never replicate the expectations of an Amiga/BeOS like experience for those that care about multimedia.

Re:The End of OS X by willtim on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @05:57PM (#23620874)
This is anecdotal. My own anecdote is that we've had far more trouble with my wife's MacBook than my NixOS ThinkPad which just works, even after upgrades.

The Linux experience depends on the distribution, software and hardware you choose. You need to choose carefully.

Re:The End of OS X by enjeyw on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @10:14PM (#23623174)
> you need to choose carefully.

So here’s the interesting part; can you recommend a distro that is universally the right choice for dev work?

If yes, please tell - I’d love to know!

If the answer is “well it depends a lot on your needs” that’s kinda the point of MacOS right? The fact that making the right distro choice requires serious thought is already problematic (hypothetically)

Re:The End of OS X by willtim on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @02:27AM (#23624740)
You do have a point, with Mac the choices have been made for you. I guess the most mac-like distro is probably Ubuntu. If you pick the LTS, you might even have a smoother ride than the macOS yearly updates.
Re:The End of OS X by lsaferite on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @06:35PM (#23621243)
> I've spent zero days, zero hours, zero minutes, and zero seconds fiddling with setting anything up in macOSX over the last 15 years.

I have to say that I 100% do not believe this statement.

You mean you you've never used any wireless connections to your machine? You've never had to set up backups or change audio settings? You've never had to deal with setting up one thing in 15 years? Since when did OSX gain the ability to read minds?

Re:The End of OS X by coldtea on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @10:15PM (#23623176)
>You mean you you've never used any wireless connections to your machine? You've never had to set up backups or change audio settings? You've never had to deal with setting up one thing in 15 years? Since when did OSX gain the ability to read minds?

You seem to confuse using the machine with setting up.

Connecting a wireless connection (picking the SSID, entering the password, etc) is not "setting up". It's merely regularly using the computer.

The setting up we'd rather avoid, and that the parent talks about, would be tinkering to get your wifi chip working with your OS -- which you get the "pleasure" to do on Linux...

Re:The End of OS X by lostmsu on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @07:17PM (#23621640)
His claim is he did it 15 years ago, and never had to touch anything else since. Definitely a stretch, but quite believable. Just a few days ago I had to figure out how to reinstall Nvidia driver after Ubuntu 18.04 to 20.04 upgrade. And the damn thing still shows my primary screen panned whenever I log off/log back on.

I was glad to return to Windows when the Linux-specific issue was solved.

Re:The End of OS X by harpratap on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @09:59PM (#23623073)
Isn't this YOUR problem you are using an infamously unsupported hardware with Linux? The problems would be same if you use Hackintosh on unsupported hardware too.
Re:The End of OS X by lostmsu on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @12:59AM (#23624275)
Somehow I need my GPGPU and there are currently no good alternatives.
Re:The End of OS X by danudey on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @02:56PM (#23632289)
I've got a stock Ubuntu 18.04 install at work. Sometimes, but not always, it hangs for three minutes or so trying to run fsck on my UEFI partition. Other times, I'm at the login screen within a minute of turning it on.

When it hangs, it finally exits with an error message saying it couldn't mount /boot/efi. Once I log in I can see that /boot/efi is mounted fine.

A bunch of my applications hang all the time for reasons I couldn't figure out. Turns out they were trying to communicate with my Gnome keychain over D-Bus, but they were in a separate D-Bus session so they just sent their D-Bus message and then waited for however long until they gave up. No idea at what point this started happening or why, but I never did figure out how to fix it (other than disabling those apps from being able to store passwords securely).

If I used the Intel drivers for my Intel GPU I got extreme stuttering and tearing, which only went away when I uninstalled the Intel drivers entirely so that it would use the "correct" drivers.

Then there's snaps. I install stuff and sometimes it's a package, and sometimes it's a snap. If it's a snap, everything turns into a giant mess. I had Firefox saving its downloads to Skype's workspace for some reason, multiple Firefox profiles on my system in various places, multiple versions of Firefox running when snapd downloaded a new version and symlinked it to be the default, two copies of Telegram for some reason and no obvious way to tell which was which, a snap and non-snap version of things because the Store installed the snap but another package depended on the apt package, and so on.

I installed my system on btrfs because "it's like a decade old now, it should be fine right?" and within a month my filesystem had been completely corrupted and I had to reinstall entirely (though I managed to salvage most of my home directory at least).

This is all stuff I'm willing to tolerate to some extent, but I can't think of a single thing that Linux offers me that makes it worth all this hassle. At my last job, I happily used a MacBook for nine straight years, and I never lost an entire day of productivity just because suddenly my system won't boot, or dealt with graphical glitches in every app because the driver for my video card isn't the right driver for my video card, or lost data because one of the default options for installation filesystem is unstable and unreliable.

I've never had to do much of anything to "tweak" MacOS unless I wanted to; on Ubuntu, I have to do it almost every day to get something working well (or at all).

So I'm gonna go ahead and say that yeah, MacOS isn't even remotely dead, and it's certainly not going to lose to Linux any time soon.

Re:The End of OS X by fluffything on Friday June 26, 2020 @05:58AM (#23650342)
Thank you for providing all these perfect examples:

> You mean you you've never used any wireless connections to your machine?

Yes: I clicked on the network, typed the password, and it worked, always. If the machine already has seen the network, i don't even have to click, it just connects. If one of my machines (e.g. my iphone) has seen the network, the network and its credentials are stored on iCloud, so my laptop and my tablet can just connect to it. I never had to google how this works, never had to install anything to make this work, never had to change any configuration file to make this work, etc.. Same for VPNs, VNCs, corporate networks, network drives, etc.

> You've never had to set up backups or change audio settings?

Yes, I clicked on enable backups, clicked on the box that enables daily back ups, clicked on the drive where I wanted to store them, and it worked, always.

I can restore, browse, partially restore, backups with one click using time machine. I never had to google how this works. It always worked.

> change audio settings?

Yes, I clicked on the audio button, and volume worked, muting worked, all 4 sound outputs worked, always worked, etc.

---

On linux, over the last 15 years, i have googled at least for days to do _each_ of these things for customers:

- can't connect to a particular wlan, corporate wlan, etc. needed new drivers, upgrade kernel, change some etc config to enable something, etc. Same for network drives, cloud drives, SMB, ...

- sound, damn sound: sound cards not being detected (hell on my lenovo yoga an update to 19.04 Ubuntu pushed a kernel patch that broke my sound cards driver: no sound card detected, still not fixed on Ubuntu 20.04 5 months later - no sound in the times of corona and web meetings - great!), alsamixer, etc files, pulse audio, .... I have had to google a lot about each of these things, and fiddle a lot over the last 15 years, on dozens of machines, for dozens of users, for hours.

- backups, on Linux, have fun. I've set backups for ext4, zfs, and btrfs. ALWAYS had to google for hours. Every time I had to restore a backup, had to google for hours. Some times restoring did not work. Some times backups did not work. Encrypted backups do not work out of the box (Apple's full-disk encryption is enabled by default - but enabling it and having work with everything is just 1 click - on Linux full-disk encryption is a mess).

---

So no, I never had to set up anything on MacOS X in the last 15 years. The things were in the obvious place, and I just used them, and they just worked. No need to even google how to do the thing, or what to install to get it done, or configure the install, or read bug reports to work around issues, nothing. They just damn worked, as they should.

Its 2020, and setting things for companies using Linux is my day job. These people would all save a ton of money by just using macs or windows machines. The amount of time their employees waste on setting up and maintaining their machines instead of doing their actual work is astonishing.

Re:The End of OS X by everdrive on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @08:09AM (#23626939)
What if you want to type without accidentally hitting your cartoonishly-large trackpad? Or if you want to type without a key accidentally registering twice because someone decided that thin keys were better?
Re:The End of OS X by y7 on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:16PM (#23619654)
Applications and hardware drivers on Mac just work. Even Homebrew works pretty nicely. The visuals of Mac are vastly superior to any flavor of Linux I've tried: smooth graphics, font rendering, HiDPI support, etc. Some aspects of Mac hardware (screen, touchpad) are very hard to come by with other manufacturers.

At this point I'll probably switch to Linux as soon as my 2015 Macbook stops working, but I would've really liked to stay with Apple.

Re:The End of OS X by saghm on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:54PM (#23620117)
> Even Homebrew works pretty nicely

It always surprises me when people cite homebrew as a plus rather than a minus in these discussions. Compared to the experience I have with Linux package managers, I've found homebrew to be extraordinarily slow even at the best of times. A simple "brew update" will generally take at least 30 seconds; in that time on something like pacman, I'll usually not only have already finished fetching the list of updates but also actually performing the upgrades, and that's updating my entire system, not just a few userspace packages that I have installed. I can understand that some people prefer MacOS and I don't think they're wrong for doing so, but it's hard for me to believe that someone has given Linux a fair shot when they cite package management as something that Macias does better.

Re:The End of OS X by wool_gather on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @05:47PM (#23620768)
In my experience this is partly because Homebrew has steadily moved to a "knows better than you" stance and every time you ask it to do one thing, it goes off and does a bunch of other things first.

MacPorts is well worth a spin if you're on a Mac and have trouble with Homebrew. I switched sometime last year and am very happy. I think I've actually been using it more because I know it's not going to be a pain every time.

Re:The End of OS X by jonhohle on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @08:25PM (#23622301)
I've been a MacPorts user since the days of Fink vs. MacPorts and tried and failed to use brew many times.

The biggest argument at the beginning for Homebrew over MacPorts was binary distribution and now MacPorts has that and can still compile custom versions if necessary.

MacPorts is always the first thing I install on a new Mac and has been for over 15 years. The several times I've seriously tried Homebrew, I get frustrated (terrible jargon, missing packages, spewing files all over my system, lax security) and go back to MP.

Re:The End of OS X by Normille on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @06:45AM (#23626399)
I've been using Homebrew for years and, although I've not had any major problems with it, I do find the slowness irritating. And also the fact it tends to ridiculous bloat by keeping previous versions of everything installed, unless you remember to do some spring cleaning every now and then.

I'm up for giving MacPorts a go. But is there a pain-free way to transition between Homebrew and MacPorts, without having to reinstall everything over again? I've installed a load of stuff with Homebrew, over the years and don't fancy having to pick through it all again to try and remember what I installed and why.

Re:The End of OS X by millimeterman on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @12:42AM (#23624180)
While Homebrew is absolutely slow, the experience of package management on macOS (homebrew gets you bleeding-edge versions of the crap you install, whereas Apple manages the system and keeps it stable) is IMO better than Linux where the choice of stable vs. bleeding-edge is systemwide.
Re:The End of OS X by Shared404 on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @02:35PM (#23632016)
Obviously requires significant setup, but this[1] seems to solve the issue you are talking about on linux.

[1] https://bedrocklinux.org/

Re:The End of OS X by asah on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @05:19PM (#23620443)
Yeah sigh, homebrew had definitely slowed down in recent years.
Re:The End of OS X by nicoburns on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @06:24PM (#23621131)
> in that time on something like pacman

If you're using Pacman (and presumably Arch or some derivative), that might explain your better experience on Linux. You're on a rolling distro so you get up to date packages (and I believe AUR gets things even quicker).

Homebrew is much closer to that rolling always-up-to-date (within a day or two usually) experience than Apt or Yum on Debian/Ubuntu/Fedora (most people's linux experience), where you have a choice between packages that are 3-6 months out of date or hunting around on the web for a 3rd-party repository to add which contains more up to date packages.

Homebrew can be slow. But the fact that I can `brew install X` or `brew upgrade X` and get on with something else while it's doing it's thing means it doesn't generally take up much of my time.

Re:The End of OS X by saghm on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @06:31PM (#23621201)
> Homebrew is much closer to that rolling always-up-to-date (within a day or two usually) experience than Apt or Yum on Debian/Ubuntu/Fedora (most people's linux experience), where you have a choice between packages that are 3-6 months out of date or hunting around on the web for a 3rd-party repository to add which contains more up to date packages

It still has a centralized list of the versions of the packages it supports (on github) though, right? I feel like it should be able to get this list with a single HTTP request to the Github API; I don't see why having a faster or slower schedule to update the packages should affect how long it takes to actually download the list of updated packages with `brew update`.

Re:The End of OS X by willtim on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @06:03PM (#23620942)
> The visuals of Mac are vastly superior to any flavor of Linux I've tried.

This is subjective. I think the MacOS UI looks and acts like a toy. My Linux machine has a solarised theme (I can toggle light/dark) with minimal window borders (i3, polybar). I think it's much more tasteful than MacOS. GNOME looks better too and it's themeable, unlike MacOS. But this is all of course just my opinion.

Re:The End of OS X by potta_coffee on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @06:57PM (#23621432)
I agree. I dislike the Mac UI, particularly Finder. The one Mac tool I use and love is the screenshot shortcuts. Other than that, 99% of my time is spent in the terminal and Sublime Text, and Firefox.
Re:The End of OS X by pcwalton on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:22PM (#23619723)
At this point FreeType is generally better (faster, more featureful) than Apple's Core Graphics, although FT is very customizable and I prefer Apple-like defaults to the ones most Linux distros use. You can definitely get Apple-like rendering out of FreeType; disabling hinting and making sure stem darkening is on gets you most of the way there.
Re:The End of OS X by fsflover on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:37PM (#23619892)
> hardware drivers on Mac just work

Same for GNU/Linux if you choose the hardware for it (or buy preinstalled).

Re:The End of OS X by ukd1 on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @07:42PM (#23621904)
Try getting hardware accelerated video in Chrome, or FF. Not supported.
Re:The End of OS X by snark42 on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @07:57PM (#23622041)
Interestingly enough this causes all kind of weird distortion on my brand new 16" MBP. Not sure if it's a hardware issue, but it only happens in the browser with GPU acceleration turned on...
Re:The End of OS X by dzonga on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @10:13PM (#23623165)
hardware acceleration has been supported in FF since 75. however your display scaling has to be 100% on x-org or use it in wayland. Linux desktop would've been perfect if it weren't for the fragmentation. btw currently running ubuntu 20.04
Re:The End of OS X by TwoBit on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:51PM (#23620088)
In my experience this argument is BS. Maybe the computer on day one works OK, but it's downhill from there as you maintain and update.
Re:The End of OS X by koyote on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @06:33PM (#23621221)
Huh, in twenty years of using Linux, hardware support has improved with each update not gone down hill.

What I do agree with is that on day one support might not be as good for new types of hardware (especially for more niche hardware like a fingerprint reader for example). Even that has improved a lot over the years though.

Re:The End of OS X by ByteJockey on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @06:09PM (#23620995)
It really does depend on the hardware.

Thinkpads usually work really well out of the box (even the nipple mouse works without a hitch).

I have plenty of horror stories about other computers though. Usually involving being deep in some page tree on a company's website that they don't seem to have actually expected anyone to go to, trying to figure out which specific vendor id maps to the actual hardware I have.

Re:The End of OS X by alacombe on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @05:37PM (#23620653)
> ... but it's downhill from there as you maintain and update

I've been maintaining a Fedora desktop installed 8 years ago without a snag, updating every year or so as time permit. Not a single problem.

Re:The End of OS X by pjmlp on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @03:53AM (#23625290)
I did exactly that with an Asus Netbook, then Canonical and AMD broke the whole experience with their actions replacing working binary drivers with WIP FOSS alternatives, because Free is Good ™.
Re:The End of OS X by reidjs on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:48PM (#23620045)
Until you have to connect to a 12 year old printer at work
Re:The End of OS X by brianguertin on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:57PM (#23620155)
Mac and Linux actually use the same printer stack: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CUPS
Re:The End of OS X by IntelMiner on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @05:14PM (#23620390)
Most corporate printers are network attached, many also run under CUPS
Re:The End of OS X by alacombe on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @05:35PM (#23620633)
> Applications and hardware drivers on Mac just work.

... until Apple decides to break an API and not provide equivalent functionality, and then you end up with a perfectly functional soft-bricked paperweight. I can't use my external USB monitor because of this.

Re:The End of OS X by CraftThatBlock on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:48PM (#23620048)
Except when they broke most Homebrew installations a few years back (Mojave maybe? Been using Linux for a while now too, that was my tipping point)
Re:The End of OS X by potta_coffee on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @06:56PM (#23621418)
I switched to Ubuntu for work about a year ago, I've done zero fiddling since the day I set it up. Linux has really come a long way even in the last 5 years, IMO. I still have a 2015 MBP that I use for my personal work and it's still solid.
Re:The End of OS X by darkteflon on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @07:36PM (#23621840)
Same, as of late last year I now run an Ubuntu desktop and the Macbook together. What I really like about this setup is the ability to sidestep some problems instead of having to solve everything, allowing me to focus on doing paid work instead of troubleshooting the platform.
Re:The End of OS X by gavinray on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @05:09PM (#23620311)
Everything on Ubuntu just works, too.
Re:The End of OS X by adolfojp on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @06:43PM (#23621314)
Except for fractional scaling if you use the proprietary NVIDIA driver. This was an issue on the latest LTS release.
Re:The End of OS X by lostmsu on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @07:27PM (#23621740)
It became worse for me since I upgraded to 20.04. Now central screen in 3 screen setup gets panned, which can only be fixed from Nvidia control panel + graphics manager restart. It breaks on the screen lock. Don't upgrade to 20.04 yet, if that's what you have.
Re:The End of OS X by kelnos on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @05:04PM (#23620242)
I've been running Linux on Macs since my 2005 12" PowerBook. There were a couple years in the middle here I switched to OS X with Linux running in a VM due to hardware support issues (the VM was a pain in the ass to use; there were no end to performance problems). I never liked OS X as an OS all that much. It was fine, but I found it got in my way more than it helped me.

In 2016, after getting tired of various hardware bits never working just right on Linux, I gave up and tried someone else's hardware. It was amazing that everything just worked with Linux. I didn't have to fight with bleeding-edge, just-reverse-engineered drivers. I didn't have to wonder if the laptop was going to wake up again after being put to sleep. But I chose somewhat poorly: the hardware I chose was decent, but rough. The battery expanded to the point where it warped the case, which caused the keyboard illumination to intermittently not work, and eventually made the touchpad impossible to use.

So I gave up in 2018 and got a MacBook Pro again, though it was a secondhand 2016 model. Once I installed Linux, I found that the keyboard and touchpad didn't work, and I had to build an out-of-tree driver for it, ditto for the WiFi. After that I found that audio and suspend-to-RAM didn't work. It turns out I was "lucky" that I had an older model; the keyboard and mouse setup in the 2017 and 2018 models hadn't been reverse engineered yet and didn't work at all.

In 2019 I got fed up with having to use the USB-C headphone adapter from my Pixel in order to hear sound, and to remember to shut my laptop down completely if I was going to be away from AC power for more than a few hours. I again left the Apple hardware world. It's not perfect, but again I marvel at how everything just works (with Linux) without tweaking. I hear so many colleagues complain about various inexplicable broken things on macOS all the time, and I think I've gotten the better deal.

Is Linux as polished as macOS? Of course not. I agree with you that the graphics aren't as smooth, font rendering isn't as good (though this is debatable; personally I find Linux rendering to be more crisp and readable than macOS), HiDPI support varies depending on what toolkit any given app was written with. But it works well enough. I think one of the biggest problems that has kept (and will continue to keep) Linux from going mainstream is that even though for the most part it works just fine, when it does break, it breaks spectacularly to the point that you need specialized knowledge to fix it. Fortunately I have that specialized knowledge, so I'm fine, but your average home user does not.

I don't have to deal with Apple's keyboard design issues, random WiFi failures (yes, it is incredibly funny to me to find that Linux WiFi can work better than macOS), Apple's overzealous "system integrity protection", or Apple in general deciding they know better than I do as to how I want to use my computer. It makes me happy, and I feel productive.

Re:The End of OS X by sergeykish on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @06:59PM (#23621452)
You are quite persistent on Mac hardware. Why?

It is hostile platform, it should be rough. I use 14" Dell Latitude - no problems at all, beautiful machine. Probably would stay on it or try Asus ZenBook.

Re:The End of OS X by kelnos on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @11:14PM (#23623607)
Because the hardware is beautiful and the build quality is (was?) excellent. Recent fumbles like the butterfly keyboard design have definitely reduced that perception, though.

I have a Dell XPS 13 now, and while I like it, it's just not as pretty as a MBP. I recognize that that's a highly subjective judgment, but that's a thing that matters to me. The XPS's build quality is good, but not amazing; for example, I've had it for less than a year, and one of the rubber strips on the bottom of the laptop has been peeling off for the last few months.

Overall it just makes me sad that "hostile platform" is even a thing. At this point I've decided that the alternatives are good enough for me, and the better hardware support tips the scales in favor of them.

Re:The End of OS X by Shared404 on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @02:38PM (#23632070)
Good experiences with the ZenBook line here. Pop!_OS worked out of the box with everything but the fingerprint reader, including the Optimus GPU.
Re:The End of OS X by mickotron on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @05:11PM (#23633933)
On my 2011 MacBook Pro I have run various Linux distributions since 2013. Mostly debian and now solus. Both have been a joy. I have not experienced the same issues that you describe. All my hardware just works out of the box.
Re:The End of OS X by stanislavb on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:46PM (#23620026)
Same story here
Re:The End of OS X by diminish on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:55PM (#23620138)
The window animation delays in mac are killing me - kind of in a month you lose hours of screen animation time. also macos has ZERO use case as a cloud OS. Any stuff you learn is meaningless except the unixy ones where linux rocks.
Re:The End of OS X by IOT_Apprentice on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @06:16PM (#23621053)
1) You can turn off windows animation, and it seems strange that it is a performance bottleneck.

2) macOS is not a cloud OS. It certainly can be a portal to the cloud quite easily, via terminal, iterm2, ssh/mosh, VNC etc. But you know that already.

You can also run VMs, KVM, docker et al on it as well.

Re:The End of OS X by diminish on Thursday June 25, 2020 @12:56PM (#23642745)
1. it's better to avoid macos totally. 2. u repeat what i said. linux is better in every detail
Re:The End of OS X by submeta on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:15PM (#23619637)
Software that is unique to MacOS:

- HoudahSpot (search files / documents)

- DEVONthink (document management system)

- Ulysses app (a markdown writing app; I know there are many, on many platforms)

- iA Writer (another markdown writer)

- Alfred App (automating)

- Keyboard Maestro (automating)

- AppleScript (automating)

- MailMate

- Things3 (task management)

- OmniOutliner

- OmniFocus

- OmniGraffle

- PDF Expert (reading / annotating pdfs)

- iTerm

- aText (text macros)

- Timing App (auto time tracking)

and many more.

Many of those apps have their equivalents in the Linux / Windows world, but their Mac pendents are imho much better.

Finally, it's the overall experience. Everyting is streamlined, everything works across iDevices, everything (mostly) works. I can't say it in a few sentences. Sitting in front of this machine, coding, writing, listening to music, that's a joy. I didn't have this feeling with a Windows machine (was a Windows and Ubuntu user until 2015).

Re:The End of OS X by TwoBit on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:55PM (#23620139)
Agreed about the Windows feeling, though the reason I have a Windows laptop (which I use personally more than my MacBook) is that outside of development tools it does far more than Mac or Linux machines.
Re:The End of OS X by oneplane on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:22PM (#23619733)
Have you noticed how all your arguments are fine yet only personal preferences? (except dataloss)

The UX, UI and 'feel' is what makes people use one thing over another. Unless you can replicate that, or can do better, nobody's getting swayed either way (and that's fine, do what you want).

There is no objective 'my pc is better than your pc' because you're not the same person as the one you'd be attempting to compare against.

Better hardware and better drivers are useless arguments if someone wants to go to a shop, take a device home, plop it down and do some work. None of the betterness of the other stuff is going to undo the work, or undo the experience.

It's like telling someone their 24-pack of toilet paper is stupid because your shipping container full of toilet paper is cheaper and you have more than they have. (especially when all they wanted to do was wipe their butt)

Re:The End of OS X by banachtarski on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @12:47AM (#23624211)
How is better hardware-to-price ratio and driver performance a "personal preference?" Do you not want those things? If you're saying that having a particular UI is important, that's another matter. I'm just explaining what it is that caused me to ditch the Mac ecosystem.
Re:The End of OS X by oneplane on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @11:00AM (#23628583)
No, those things aren't the main driver for my choices.

Say you have two options, same price, different vendor. And the main difference (for the sake of the argument) is that one comes with a mobile i5 and the other one with a mobile i7. Technically the price-to-performance ratio is better for the i7 model. But the driver for me to buy any device at all is wether the device can do the task I need it to do. If the i5 does the task the same way the i7 does the task, what is the extra value that the i7 supposedly brings?

Often people will make a 'what if' argument here, because "what if you need to do something different" sounds like a nice argument to get more than what you need. In reality, I don't often see anyone changing their tasks mid-lifecycle and then have a sudden requirements change. It hasn't happend for me at all.

The same parallel can be made with cargo capacity of a vehicle; technically every Lamborghini ever is a stupid choice because you can't move your furniture with it. Or every Fiat Panda is stupid because you can't drive at 200 Km/h speeds. Make it more absurd: every boat is stupid because it doesn't fly like a rocket.

Re:The End of OS X by Fire-Dragon-DoL on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @01:19AM (#23624372)
Linux is objectively more configurable too (obviously).

This is probably my biggest complaint with macOS.

I'm still shocked by the inability to disable inertia scrolling on a usb mouse, as well as acceleration.

These things were removed on purpose.

If you use a macbook with usb devices, there are all sorts of oddities. It's annoying. I can use it, it's just not for a power user. For me, power user means "configure it", shape it to maximize your workflow speed.

MacOS is just not that. With linux there is a lot more flexibility.

I don't care too much about eye-candiness, I want my UI to be incredibly fast. MacOS has those damn animations when switching spaces that is annoying to say the least (I switch spaces very often)

Re:The End of OS X by davedx on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @03:58PM (#23619429)
I use Safari as my main browser now due to the password generation/sharing with my iPhone. It's a killer feature for me.
Re:The End of OS X by jnwatson on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:03PM (#23619501)
That's a commodity feature at this point.
Re:The End of OS X by Diesel555 on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @11:57PM (#23623915)
Assumptions: 1) All my devices are Apple 2) I'm not planning on leaving Apple

For all the negative replies I wonder how many people actually have used Keychain. It's very good. I tried onePassword, google's, and firefox's, but none integrates as well among all my devices and with zero effort in the OS as keychain. Anyone leaving negative comments about keychain, at least point out that you've given it the ol' try in the Apple Ecosystem.

Or we have different assumptions and you have devices outside the Apple ecosystem or don't want to be tied to it therefore the benefits I see to keychain don't apply to you.

Also the WWDC yesterday has some cool new features about bad passwords (But I think other password managers already do this).

Re:The End of OS X by darkteflon on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @08:10PM (#23622159)
Pray you never have to bulk export your passwords. It is extremely painful.
Re:The End of OS X by faemir on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:00PM (#23619462)
Firefox does this too FYI
Re:The End of OS X by davedx on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @03:13AM (#23625000)
I like Firefox but I don't use it on my iPhone. I use the Apple pw manager to log into websites on both phone/laptop a lot. The syncing to my iPhone is great.
Re:The End of OS X by IOT_Apprentice on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @06:16PM (#23621056)
As does chrome and edge.
Re:The End of OS X by viklove on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:02PM (#23619485)
Almost every browser has this feature...
Re:The End of OS X by danaris on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @05:23PM (#23620496)
But "almost every browser" doesn't sync your saved passwords seamlessly between devices (mobile and desktop) with an end-to-end encrypted database, and automatically offer to autofill them, with the autofill itself protected by Touch ID/Face ID on the devices that support those.
Re:The End of OS X by edjrage on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @05:49PM (#23620788)
For one, Bitwarden does all of that and more (I guess except the Face ID thing, but I don't really want that so I'd disable it anyway). It has web, mobile and desktop apps, and browser extensions. All available in the free plan. Oh, and it's open source and self-hostable.

https://bitwarden.com/

(Not affiliated with it, just a pretty happy (free) user!)

Re:The End of OS X by danaris on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @06:06PM (#23620967)
Neat, and glad to know about it! I've actually been surprised (and a little frustrated) that there haven't been any alternatives to iCloud Keychain for genuine seamless, e2e encrypted, password management.

Does it actually work the same as Mobile Safari's interface on iOS? Automatically presenting options both for creating and autofilling passwords on webpages? (If it can do that in iOS Firefox, I might consider it...I've been using desktop Firefox for a while because of some bizarre idiosyncratic issues I have with Safari on my laptop, that I can't reproduce anywhere else, but are extremely irritating where they do happen...)

Re:The End of OS X by darkteflon on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @08:15PM (#23622218)
Yes, it does. The integration with both Safari and Firefox on iOS is excellent. In Settings -> Passwords & Accounts -> Autofill Passwords you just change the backend from iCloud Keychain to Bitwarden, then it otherwise behaves substantially the same.

A big benefit of switching to Bitwarden is that you can also get it up and running on non-Apple machines. Kicking myself for not doing it earlier.

Just be aware that bulk exporting your passwords from iCloud Keychain is non-trivial.

Re:The End of OS X by rrrrrrrrrrrryan on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @09:06PM (#23622691)
Lastpass does this, but works with apps as well. Third party password managers are absolutely underrated, because most of them are truly cross-platform.

If you create a Netflix account on your desktop in Chrome, it can generate a password for you, or auto-grab whatever password you typed in, and will autofill that password when you open the Netflix app on your phone. (Based on a built-in association between "netflix.com" and the Netflix android app.)

Super handy feature when you get a new mobile device and need to get logged in to all your apps for the first time.

Re:The End of OS X by lisnake on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @08:40PM (#23622468)
Chrome does that. If you set a passphrase for sync, then your data is e2e encrypted.

https://support.google.com/chrome/answer/165139

Re:The End of OS X by webmobdev on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:07PM (#23619548)
Use a password manager. It's safer than trusting Apple or Google who are after your personal data.
Re:The End of OS X by danaris on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @05:22PM (#23620478)
Apple never gets your saved login credentials. iCloud Keychain is end-to-end encrypted, and Apple hasn't been shy about advertising that fact.
Re:The End of OS X by webmobdev on Sunday June 28, 2020 @05:29AM (#23667658)
> Apple never gets your saved login credentials.

Yeah, keep telling yourself that. They are a part of PRISM.

Re:The End of OS X by kn0where on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:13PM (#23619623)
Also worth noting is that with recent iOS versions, third party password managers are recognized at the OS level, and can be used with the same seamlessness as iCloud Keychain.
Re:The End of OS X by toomuchtodo on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:24PM (#23619739)
Apple and Google aren't going to sell users' login credentials, and if law enforcement is requesting information, they will go directly to the provider who contains your data they're seeking.
Re:The End of OS X by slmjkdbtl on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:15PM (#23619645)
Apps shipped with macOS are actually good imo, or there's just not a lot of better alternatives. Never found a better alternative for itunes or mail (used Thunderbird and mutt for a while and they're either bloat or have bad UX). macOS designers seem to be good at cramming functionalities (i know it's not unix philosophy) while making it not look bloat at all.
Re:The End of OS X by qeternity on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:22PM (#23619713)
Mail is a pretty awful client imo, but still better than most other. Canary and Airmail however are absolutely amazing (I recently switched to Canary from Airmail) and there really isn't anything comparable on other platforms.
Re:The End of OS X by phs318u on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @05:06PM (#23620267)
Mail.app is an appalling client. Having recently switched email providers, I tried copying several thousand emails from one mailbox to another. Mail would invariably crash after moving several hundred, and then could not be restarted without immediately crashing. I lost count of how many crashes I reported to Apple (aside: has anything ever come of these reports?). Mail is so bad, it did what I didn’t think was possible - I switched to Outlook. And guess what? Outlook handled me email-moving task faster and without error.

Internal quality control for macOS and built-in Apple apps has fallen off a cliff in recent times. Catalina has been disastrous in that regard. Having used Macs since OS/X Leopard, I’m not jumping to Big Sur. I switched from Windows because it was a buggy, hot mess. I’m not hanging around and risking my work as macOS quality control keeps falling. Apple’s developers have lost my trust.

Re:The End of OS X by slmjkdbtl on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @05:14PM (#23620388)
I once had a similar need but outlook failed me hard, never tried with Mail.app but I'm sure it won't go well. In an ideal world i would just make all software i use myself cuz I've only seen like <10 actual good softwares in my life
Re:The End of OS X by alacombe on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @05:40PM (#23620682)
> Apps shipped with macOS are actually good imo, ...

As long as your standard is low, sure. Scanning with Image Capture results in needlessly large files and it has turned to be quite a piece of crap. Moved my scanning pipeline back to Linux, and now, I've got text recognition for free !

Re:The End of OS X by webmobdev on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:22PM (#23619725)
Some are good. But many have better alternatives. All mac apps leech your data to the cloud though. And that should be a huge no from all of us.
Re:The End of OS X by ytch on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @08:22PM (#23622276)
I rely on TimeMachine to backup my MAC.

AFAIK, windows and linux still don't have suctions tool that can backup/restore without pain.

Re:The End of OS X by coldtea on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @10:11PM (#23623152)
>and my downsides are... what exactly

Less cohesion, competing GUI libs/configuration systems/etc, still not 100% GPU support, the Wayland situation, almost non-existent multimedia (video, audio) options (not to mention support for peripherals like audio interfaces), and being at the worse than Apple's arbitrary mercy of your favourite desktop environment programmers (e.g. abrupt transitions and bizarro decisions in Gnome and KDE major versions).

Re:The End of OS X by banachtarski on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @02:35AM (#23624785)
> still not 100% GPU support

I'm a graphics engineer so I'm not sure I understand this argument. When I talk about weaker and worse-performing hardware options and drivers on Mac, I'm referring _mainly_ to GPUs.

> Non-existent multimedia (video, audio) options

This... is simply not true (?)

Also, regarding Gnome/KDE, I dislike both and don't use either. Something like i3 with zero-to-know configuration is already pretty great out of the box.

Re:The End of OS X by coldtea on Thursday June 25, 2020 @02:14AM (#23637430)
>When I talk about weaker and worse-performing hardware options and drivers on Mac, I'm referring _mainly_ to GPUs.

And when I talk about weaker support for GPUs on Linux, I mean the Wayland / compositor situation, getting 3D to work without planning what specific model of laptop to buy to use with what specific distro, and so on...

>This... is simply not true (?)

This is simply true. It can't run Cubase, Logic (ok, that's expected), Pro Tools, Studio One, Reason, FL Studio, Maschine, and tons of other things besides. Your best bet is some niche players like BitWig and Traktion, or crossing your fingers with Wine... And let's not get started for drivers for professional audio interfaces and peripherals...

Same for NLEs...

Re:The End of OS X by danudey on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @02:44PM (#23632139)
There are no good mail clients for Linux that I can find. All of them are great, except for one or two things that makes them completely awful.

> (seriously, safari is the new internet explorer).

I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean. Safari is holding back the web because despite its monopoly on users it doesn't support new technologies? That's not true at all. Especially because it's got such a small market share, it should be up to them to deliver what they feel makes the most sense, and let the market decide the rest (though sadly the market seems to keep using Chrome, which is terrible).

Honest question though: as a Safari user almost exclusively for the past 15 years, what I missing out on that I could have experienced if Safari had supported WebGL2? I don't know that I've encountered any sites or use cases where Safari was holding me back in that regard, but I'm curious to know what was out there that I couldn't see before.

Re:The End of OS X by Aperocky on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @05:17PM (#23620424)
Does your benefit comes with battery power and portability? I couldn't care less about speed when I have a 64 vCPU box at 10ms delay.
Re:The End of OS X by chaostheory on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:34PM (#23619868)
Linux is great for development work and casual web browsing, but imo it doesn't feel polished enough for most people's personal stuff.

> Itunes, Mail, etc, none of the software shipping with MacOS is actually any good. I

It's better than the open source stuff on Linux. While it has gotten much better over the years, it's still not good enough for normal people like my parents or my sisters who are not techies. That's just reality for now at least. It's pointless as to whether or not you agree with it.

Re:The End of OS X by iso947 on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:50PM (#23620082)
I maintain an old Mac for corporate purposes, but yes a Mac is just tedious. While things like printers “just work” in Linux they really struggle in OS X, requiring “drivers” like its 1999.

The other benefits of Mac hardware (MagSafe for example) have all been removed leaving not-a-lot.

YMMV.

Re:The End of OS X by ARandomerDude on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @03:49PM (#23619310)
For me, the React Native experience has been instructive. Android is quick and easy to develop, debug, and deploy. The iOS side includes multiple hoops, constant frustration stemming from XCode, long app release times, and minutes-long builds for production-size apps.

Our team, without any policy dictating daily development habits, has coalesced around Linux/Android development with iOS testing before release.

Re:The End of OS X by askafriend on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @03:54PM (#23619390)
As a consumer, I've never used a React Native app that I liked using. It's always janky and commpromises UX in ways that made me simply use the app less or had the effect of teaching me to "get in and out of the app as quickly as possible".
Re:The End of OS X by com2kid on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:19PM (#23619687)
> As a consumer, I've never used a React Native app that I liked using.

If it is a good react native app you won't know it is RN.

If you notice it, it is by definition poorly done. There are some things (e.g. specific animations, UI elements) that RN just isn't great at, the best way to avoid making a janky app is to avoid even trying to do those things.

Re:The End of OS X by 72deluxe on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @06:32PM (#23621216)
Non-native menus and poor keyboard focus handling and shortcuts are the giveaway, and extreme memory usage!
Re:The End of OS X by ulisesrmzroche on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @07:27PM (#23621749)
That’s your bias. Most consumers have mo clue what react native is
Re:The End of OS X by ARandomerDude on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:02PM (#23619487)
As with everything, it depends on the implementation. There are some things I'd like to clean up about our app, but overall feedback has been very positive.
Re:The End of OS X by nicoburns on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @06:30PM (#23621193)
> Our team, without any policy dictating daily development habits, has coalesced around Linux/Android development with iOS testing before release.

Interestingly our team has gone the opposite way (again, no official policy). The deciding factor in our case has been the relative performance of Xcode/iOS Simulator vs Android Studio + Android Emulator. Android Studio on it's own slows my computer down more than Xcode compiling AND the iOS Simulator running at the same time. The Android emulator is all but unusable on my MacBook.

I agree there's a lot of painful bits around signing/release on iOS though.

Re:The End of OS X by bengale on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @05:25PM (#23620516)
Sometimes it feels like I live in another dimension. I worked with dozens of developers using macs that never make complaints beyond little niggles, then I come on here and you’d think the entire ecosystem was a dumpster fire. It’s enough to make me think I don’t work on the same system they’re describing for 60+ hours a week.
Re:The End of OS X by cortesoft on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @03:51PM (#23619352)
I recently ran into some trouble with some tools installed in /usr/bin a while ago, and wanted to try making some changes.

Even with root, you can't touch /usr/bin. It took me way too long to try to figure out what was going on, and all the fixes were hacks.

Re:The End of OS X by wuunderbar on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @03:58PM (#23619438)
I may be missing something here, but why would you need to change the stock installed tools in /usr/bin? Seems like an easy way to screw up your OS installation. And it's not like a VM where you can rollback to a snapshot or relaunch.

If there really was an issue there then you either need to file a bug and have them mainline a fix, or yes hack/shim a fix on top for your needs. Perhaps leveraging PATH precedence.

Re:The End of OS X by luma on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:10PM (#23619575)
Embedded in your response is the general attitude one hears when concerned about not being able to do "a thing" in the Apple ecosystem: why would you want to do that?

Questioning the use case and insisting that one doesn't actually _want_ to do a thing instead of allowing the user to control their own system is the quintessential Apple experience.

Re:The End of OS X by qeternity on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:25PM (#23619759)
You can still do this thing, you just do it a different way that doesn't fundamentally risk breaking the OS. I understand that there may be some non-zero sized group of people who absolutely want to screw with protected OS files, and even for this group of people you can go and disable SIP and mess with the OS all you want (one of the Macs I have is a hackintosh, which requires some decent modification).

However most people, including me, and I'd venture most engineers too, would rather have a hardened system.

Re:The End of OS X by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:44PM (#23620001)
> Embedded in your response is the general attitude one hears when concerned about not being able to do "a thing" in the Apple ecosystem: why would you want to do that?

Funny, that's a quote I hear a lot in Linux Desktop ecosystems as well. I think it is just the nature of people so accustomed to a certain way of thinking that any other use case that comes along is automatically considered to be doing it wrong.

Re:The End of OS X by msla on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:54PM (#23620114)
Linux doesn't have a single desktop ecosystem. Apple very much has One Apple Way.

If Linux is going to get attacked for not having a single GUI, it would be nice if it weren't also attacked for having a repressive GUI monoculture. /s

Re:The End of OS X by groby_b on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:12PM (#23619603)
Apples open source devtools are old as dinosaurs, so that might be a common case.

But more importantly, it's the question whose laptop it is. I continue to think that the tools I build go to /usr/bin, because that's the way I like it. Apple is telling me I'm liking it wrong.

As for filing a bug with Apple - good one. Every single Apple dev considers radr:// a black hole, and the chance of getting a fix from Apple because of bugs filed (vs. Apple wants to fix it anyways) is slim to none.

Overall, Macs are more and more machines that want to prevent shooting yourself in the foot, at the price of less flexibility and access. This is a good choice for some, it's not a good choice for me. (And many other people who like hacking their machines)

Re:The End of OS X by Hamuko on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:19PM (#23619693)
>Apples open source devtools are old as dinosaurs, so that might be a common case.

Yeah, but there's a certain expectation that the tool that you have installed in /usr/bin is a certain version. There's a reason why tools like Homebrew generally do not overwrite built-in tools.

If you just replaced /usr/bin/python with Python 3, you'd probably break all kinds of things.

Re:The End of OS X by groby_b on Thursday June 25, 2020 @11:55AM (#23642089)
The point is, it is my machine to break. Apple is more and more deciding that I don't get to do that. It's a choice that benefits a large class of customers, but it's detrimental to people like me.

macOS used to be "Unix, but with a great GUI". It is turning into "iOS, but with a few command line tools".

Re:The End of OS X by growse on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @05:30PM (#23620575)
> I may be missing something here, but why would you need to change the stock installed tools in /usr/bin?

Because it's my computer that I paid for with my hard earned cash, and I want to.

How far we have fallen.

Re:The End of OS X by Hamuko on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @02:19AM (#23624699)
Then you should probably disable SIP and go do whatever the hell you hope to accomplish with that.
Re:The End of OS X by 72deluxe on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @06:30PM (#23621195)
I can't agree with this more! It's a bleak future. Back to Linux I guess.
Re:The End of OS X by cortesoft on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @05:55PM (#23620852)
I had other reasons that I needed my PATH to be in the order it was.
Re:The End of OS X by filleduchaos on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @06:32PM (#23621212)
> Even with root, you can't touch /usr/bin

Yes, you can. If you disagree with Apple's System Integrity Protection, you can take two whole minutes of your life (if even up to that, considering how quickly OSes boot these days) to turn it off permanently and mount the entire drive as read-writeable. For some strange reason, though, I tend to encounter far more people complaining about it than actually taking the steps needed to fix the "problem".

Re:The End of OS X by webmobdev on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:13PM (#23619614)
Perhaps what you need is Gnu core utilities - https://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/coreutils.html ?

Just install it with macports and you can use all the tools by prefixing it with a g - gls for ls, gdd for dd etc. Some of these tools are newer versions than on macOS and hence improved (as GPL3 prohibits Apple from including newer versions).

Re:The End of OS X by cortesoft on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @05:51PM (#23620817)
Like I said, I could hack around it eventually.

It was annoying that I couldn't do the basic things I expect to be able to do on a machine as root

Re:The End of OS X by IOT_Apprentice on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @06:17PM (#23621063)
which is what /usr/local/bin is for, right?
Re:The End of OS X by FillardMillmore on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:03PM (#23619499)
I can't speak for why the OP feels this way, but I think one of the main gripes I've seen from "power users" of the latest MBPs are the touchbar and Apple's continued insistence on it and the larger trackpad that some find obtrusive (these features are generally embraced by end-users). Then of course there's the lack of USB ports that some take issue with and the fairly disappointing built-in webcam on the latest models. These are not problems for everyone and most have workarounds, but some "power users" are turned off by this. The abandonment of the butterfly keyboard is definitely a step in the right direction.
Re:The End of OS X by warent on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:04PM (#23619515)
I would also consider myself to be a power user. However, one huge annoying problem I've encountered is sharing homebrew between multiple users. It seems like it's not possible for homebrew and all of it's libraries/binaries to be owned/usable by more than one user at a time.

Apple should roll their own package management tool or officially support homebrew.

Re:The End of OS X by Brian_K_White on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @05:08PM (#23620296)
The homebrew developers (of the homebrew framework itself not all the random app maintainers) have been "doing it wrong since day one. It is utterly and unforgivably wrong to install system-wide binaries owned by a normal user outside of the users own home dir. That's what they were doing for years until fairly recently when Apple had to simply change the os to break their install, forcing brew to change it, finally, against their will.

Macports did it right, but "brew ..." is just a cooler catchier name.

It litterally comes down to that. The more fun name.

When someone is new and confused and overwhelmed, a slight difference like that, or the design of the website, or the charisma of the people talking on forum posts, is the tipping factor in which of the 11 possible things they try.

And as long as the first thing they tried worked, they keep doing it and quickly gain a rewarding feeling of accomplishment and confidense doing that thing.

At that point this is their home and their comfort. They aren't bothering with anything else when it doesn't seem to be any different. They conclude they chose wisely the first time (which is a good feeling that anyone can always simply decide to reward themself with, ie confirmation bias).

So, no one should have ever used homebrew. Homebrew "won" anyway, but not by being the better-architected more technically correct system with wiser engineers.

I forgive all the users for not realizing that the directions they are terrible and broken. There is no excuse for the developers writing that system.

So, your problem with homebrew, I say, the problem is homebrew not Apple.

Re:The End of OS X by chipotle_coyote on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @06:41PM (#23621294)
> It litterally comes down to that. The more fun name.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I switched from MacPorts to Homebrew, after having previously switched from Fink to MacPorts many years ago despite not only being told but having actually experienced that Homebrew was slower and more fragile. And the reason was not "the more fun name." The reason was that both MacPorts and Fink were incredibly slow at expanding and updating their ports tree. Stuff that I knew from my Linux and FreeBSD days, or cool stuff that I read about on weblogs or in places like Slashdot and HN, was nearly always right there in a current or new-current version in Homebrew. That was rarely true of MacPorts: often it wasn't there at all, and if it was, it was often several minor or even a full major version behind.

This may have changed since then -- I hope it has, since I suspect it's been over a decade at this point -- but IIRC, the last straw was trying to install the terminal version of a program (either Emacs or Vim, I think) that also had a GUI version available and, after going to make coffee and coming back to the computer, discovering MacPorts (a) didn't care that I had explicitly asked for the terminal version, it was going to install the GUI version for me anyway, and (b) because of MacPorts' aggressive "never depend on the system version of anything no way no how", it was building a new version of the entire bleeping XFree86 from source for me. Yes, I understand why MacPorts takes that "no system dependencies" approach; yes, I get that was probably a badly-specified port file. But I ripped it out and never looked back.

Well, I take that back. I think I looked back once, about four years ago, to see if everything that I had installed under Homebrew on a machine could be installed with MacPorts, because maybe it was time to give it another chance. The answer was no, everything could not be installed. So the answer was no, it was not time to go back.

I don't care that Homebrew has a fun name. I care that it has the stuff that I want kept reasonably current with upstream versions. Homebrew has, as far as I can tell, gotten a lot better over the years at not being fragile. It's still no speed demon, but the truth is that I don't actually run it that often. If a more native macOS package for a given piece of software is available, I'll install that in preference.

Re:The End of OS X by Beached on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @05:14PM (#23620381)
have you tried windows with subsystem before? I've noticed significantly better performance from windows 10 on Lenovo t580 (from 2018)than my Macbook pro (from 2029). I love win 10 + subsystem combo 10x more than my Mac that I now have moved all development and daily work over to my windows box. I only touch the Mac as a test box before running things in production, when it use to be the other way around.
Re:The End of OS X by elipsey on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:59PM (#23620187)
>> I consider myself a power user, and precisely because MacOS feels like the best of Unix combined with customer focus [...] I simply can't relate to the statement that Mac is a "platform that contends with me every step of the way" and I'm curious to know more specifically why you feel this way?"

I just plugged an extra ssd into my my old thinkpad yesterday. My boot volume is mSata. The hard drive hole was empty, and I added it with one screw. Now I have a vm storage pool. It now has more storage than my gf's mac, and it cost 1/6th as much.

I tried something similar with her computer yesterday. Plugged in a usb SATA ssd. ext4 isn't supported. alt-tab is broken. Using the touchpad for everything is mandatory because hotkeys are counter revolutionary I guess? GNU userland is there but like half of it is broken or fake, like fs/mtab aren’t real? The console clipboard doesn’t seem to work. All the apps are already running instances without a window or something? Is this supposed to be like a phone?

I just want it to fullscreen tmux and leave me alone, but I keep having to search the internet for the cutesy name of the GUI thing that is the only way to do <trivial task>. I could format the disk and put the data back after, but I'm now afraid file io in python will be even more fun than I am already having, so I go find another computer.

I keep trying to learn how to use a mac, but it's always so much harder than just using any other computer that is around that I just can't seem to make time. I find the UI willfully contrarian, and more alien than anything I have every used. I'm not trying to be an OS fanboy here, I know lot's of smart devs who say they like it. I want to "get it" but I just don't "get it". Discover-ability seems poor, especially as a user friendly tool for beginners, but the UI and locked down software eco-system seems so limiting for devs. Like, who is this for?

My gf told to stop trying to think and just click on things… She’s a modeler/dev and she hates her mac, but her employer won’t let her use linux anymore. None of this feels like a dev or “power user” experience. It feels like using Windows XP because the boss made me.

Is this like that thing Neal Stephenson said about the difference between "easy to learn" and "easy to use"? Like if I learn to use it properly I will start having "ah ha!" moments and become more productive?

EDIT: I really don't mean to be flippant! OP asked why people find it limiting. They seemed like they know what they're doing, and might be a dev, and lot's of devs use mac.

OP called it "the best of Unix combined with customer focus", which sounds great to me! I just don't understand what went wrong...

Re:The End of OS X by okamiueru on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @05:44PM (#23620724)
I have the exact same experience. I've developed on Windows, and for the past 10 years on Linux. The experience for the latter has changed so much in terms of usability that I struggle to understand why alternatives are at all desirable for developers. Out of necessity I had to do iOS development on OSX, and out of the gate that already leaves a bad impression. I can cross-compile and target anything from anywhere and run in emulators or virtual machines and what not, the hardware can do it, the software allows me to use it, its all good. Except the mac ecosystem. So, purchase of a mac it is, install of xcode and the whole shebang. Very little is enjoyable, and less is particularly intuitive. I love my grandmother, and for non power-users who mostly wants to use a browser, a gnome based ubuntu seems a better option than OSX, and definitely also Windows.

As for how the experience was for me, in terms of developer and power user, everything mac has from unix seemed a bit half way. It certainly surprised me repeatedly, finding some versions of core utilities to be older and not supporting flags here and there. But this was fine. Homebrew felt sluggish. But this too was fine. Then comes iOS development, and oh lord what a shit show. This was not fun, and the release process and signing, and all that.

I've reached the point in my professional life where I want things to work. I don't wish to struggle with technical limitations caused by politics and marketing decisions. Development on OSX feels that way. You can't virtualize the OS, and can't emulate an iPhone. You have to go through way too many hoops to do what should be simple.

So, I honestly, and for no inflammatory motivation, don't see why people like to work OSX. I understand that you wish to do so if you are limited by software and tools that restrict your choice, making it either that or Windows. And I dare say Windows is, in total, even worse.

For usability and ease of use, as an OS, for use with free software and otherwise software that exists for the platform, it's in my honest and in an effort to not be too biased or fanboy-y (again, I wouldn't push my fanboyism on my grandmother), simply easier. For a power user and again not limited by language or tech, there is no competition. None. I'd chose to work for a different company if it meant I didn't have to develop on OSX or Windows. Life is too short.

Re:The End of OS X by sergeykish on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @06:39PM (#23621274)
"Power user" may be as much as changing Windows Theme. Not much is allowed so bar is not high. Through the page again and again "users don't care".

Linux changes expectations. Everything is possible, there should be package for that, deconstruct, throw away, replace, and most of the time someone already did it.

Re:The End of OS X by elipsey on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @06:03PM (#23620946)
>> I don't wish to struggle with technical limitations caused by politics and marketing decisions

So much this. When I depend on proprietary stuff, the care and feeding of licenses and serial numbers and all that stuff never seems to end, and it's shackled to one computer or host name or MAC address or something like that, which changes faster than calvinball.

It's not even about money. Who has time for all that busywork?

If mac platform was freely redistributable and Linux was proprietary, I would switch to mac in a heartbeat even if I hated using it, just to protect my time from doing all that IT stuff :p

Re:The End of OS X by jki275 on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @07:21PM (#23621678)
This - precisely. I live on a Mac all day every day. Does everything I want, exactly how I want it, and makes me so much more productive than if I had to fight with Linux all day long.